EV Digest 5003
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: (AC prop reductive charger;) Isolation importance?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: old batteries & the usefullnes of desulfators
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Motor control for direct drive setup
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Emergency disconnect idea, was Motor control for direct drive setup
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: links on evproduction.org wiki
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Sell me some battery heaters
by Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: S10 pickup
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: PFC Charger - will it work for a NICAD Mini Cooper EV?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: S10 pickup
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE:S10 pickup
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motor control for direct drive setup
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Schwinn Stingray possible dud. Smoking after 1/2 block & not the tires.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Schwinn Stingray possible dud. Smoking after 1/2 block & not the tires.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: S10 pickup
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: S10 pickup
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) RE: Schwinn Stingray possible dud. Smoking after 1/2 block & not
the tires.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Are these chargers any different?g
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Setting up a Direct Drive
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Are these chargers any different?g
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Yet another e-bay find
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Performance Discrepancies / Questions
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Generating line power from cars
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Generating line power from cars
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Series/parallel fields, motor age?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Osmo Sarin wrote:
> I´m very interested to hear comments on this one about AC grounding. Is
> it a potential shock hazard? Is AC more dangerous than DC in this
> respect?
It's another one of those problems that has nothing to do with AC vs. DC.
Rather, it is a consequence of using a high-frequency switcher for your
charger and/or controller.
Every wire in your EV's high voltage propulsion system has capacitance to
ground. Large conductors, laying right against the metal body, for long
distances, all conspire to create relatively large capacitances.
If you use a plain old 60 Hz transformer-based charger, and a plain old
contactor controller, the AC current in all these capacitors is low enough to
ignore. It won't reach 5ma, and won't trip a GFCI, and won't represent a
shock hazard if, for example, the ground wire breaks while you are charging
and someone touches the car body and actual earth ground.
If you have a high-frequency switcher for a charger, then this same stray
capacitance can carry a substantially higher current. Now you *can* get over
5ma, trip the GFCI, or get a shock.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
paul wiley wrote:
> what do you think of pulse chargers or battery desulfators?
In general, I think they are a waste of money.
> The batts i have now are 10yrs + in age.
I can appreciate your desire to somehow get a little more life out of them,
but at 10 years old, they are going to be pretty far gone no matter what you
do with them. Your best bet is to recycle them and buy new batteries.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
> Suppose you are stopped on a very steep hill and need to get going.
> The DC motor puts a lot of current through a fraction of the motor's
> comm bars and windings. In contrast, the AC motor spreads its heat
> throughout all the field coils and the whole armature. It seems the
> DC motor would have to be maybe 4 or more times the weight of the
> AC motor to avoid melting something in this situation.
If the motor is literally stalled (0 rpm), then only the commutator bars
directly under the brushes are carrying any current. In this case, yes; you
will burn up those bars in a matter of seconds at high current.
But if the motor is turning at all, even a few rpm, that is sufficient to
spread the heat out over the entire commutator.
Permanent magnet AC motors suffer from similar problems. When they are at
stall, all the current is flowing in one of the phase windings. This winding
can also overheat and fail, though it's a matter of minutes rather than
seconds.
Induction motors always "slip", so the magnetic field is rotating slowly even
if the rotor is stalled. The hazard here is not from overheating the
windings, but from burning up the rotor windings.
> But just theoretically, is there some elegant trick that for the same
> kg would make the DC motor as resistant to melting something as an
> AC motor?
Sure; that's what a controller's current limit is for! All that's missing from
a cheap controller (like the Curtis) is a way to sense stall and limit the
current lower if the motor is not moving at all.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And then there is the military option.
A piece of det cord inside a conductor inside a fuse housing, hit a big
red button and bam! the fuse blows. (You will still have the
superconducting plasma channel like when a fuse blows, but it squeltches
pretty fast if you don't have excess current carrier vaporized in the
enclousure.
My thought was 2 main contactors, one as a crowbar and a mushroom
button, Pull up on it and it energizes the crowbar opening the circuit,
hit it and it drops the main and shorts the crowbar poping the correctly
sized breaker or blowing the fuse. This could be tied into the circuit
for airbag.
I like the stomp fuse, great idea. but all of us must realize that there
is little time to react if the failure is sitting at a stoplight "in
gear" (direct drive).
What about this? Since my foot is already on brake, we amplify that
"intent". We take the brake light signal to a relay that energizes
safety circuit, safety circuit ejects fuse or pops breaker or whatever
if over 100 amps. Now my foot is already on the brake, if it lurches
forward, my natural tendency is to stomp on the brakes anyway and the
circuit pops mid lurch. This way noone gets hit with commutator
schrapnel. this also can be tied to inertia switch.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fortunat:
You are right - sort of. In this special case, the DMCA (digital millenium
copyright act) was used to fight off an competitor.
Here is a better link:
http://www.phillipsnizer.com/library/cases/lib_case316.cfm
It says there:
This in turn led the Court to conclude that Lexmark was likely to prevail
on its DMCA claims for three independent reasons: (1) the chips were
specifically developed to circumvent the authentication sequence; (2) the
chips had no commercial purpose other than circumventing that sequence;
and (3) the chips are marketed as being capable of circumventing that
authentication sequence.
What does that mean? If, say, a motor would be 'married' to a transmission
by using some sort of authentification sequence, neither some third party
nor ANYBODY ELSE would be allowed to circumvent this mechanism in order to
replace the motor with something else.
"Box-Wrap" Patent Infringement
What's that, you ask? Evidently, it's when you ignore the terms written on
the side of Lexmark printer cartridge box, refilling the cartridge with
ink even when the company has designated it "single use only." According
to the Ninth Circuit ruling [PDF] this week in ACRA v. Lexmark, opening
the package means you agree to Lexmark's wishes. And if you break that
agreement, you could face claims under contract and patent law.
http://www.corante.com/copyfight/archives/2005/09/02/the_latest_ip_crime_boxwrap_patent_infringement.php
More about that: http://techdirt.com/articles/20050906/0230233_F.shtml
But let's go back to the original point. I was suggesting to build some
kind of 'umbrella' so we would at least speak with a one voice and be able
to have at least some power, lobby, representation and a little
protection.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
another thought for battery warmer would be the pipe warmer that you
plug in the wall. might be heavier wire than the soil warmers...
Roy LeMeur wrote:
Hi Folks
I am doing some comparison shopping for flat battery heaters, I know
there are quite a few different ones.
Reliability is more important than low cost.
Looking for a reliable product and supplier.
Please contact me off-list.
roylemeur at hotmail dot com
Thanks!
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like that thing is gonna be a hoot. If you would rather have
glass.....
I autocrossed my mitsubishi pu and my rear rollbar supports go thru the
back window and to the floor of the bed (on closer inspection you will
find that the frame has been extended up to the bed floor and the bed
floor hammered flat :-) ) The point was, it was also my daily driver
and I wanted safety glass back there. It turned out to be cheaper and
easier than I thought.
Made a pattern out of 1/8 masonite that went around the roll bars and
the metal plates that attached to the bars and went into the rubber
gasket like the old glass did .
Took that to a local glass shop that cut it out of regular window glass,
they sent it to the oven to heat treat it and put a tint in the glass.
$39.00 it has been in there over 10 years.
Thats when I found out you don't cut safety glass.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The PFC is a CC/CV charger. I.e. charges at a specific current up to the
acceptance voltage then charges at the acceptance voltage until a timer
shuts it off (there are other turn off options as well). Talk to Rich or
Joe about charging NiCads **before** purchasing the charger as there may be
specific requirements for that chemistry.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Monty McGraw
Sent: December 17, 2005 4:55 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: PFC Charger - will it work for a NICAD Mini Cooper EV?
I did some web searching and looked at the EV archives today for NICAD
chargers for EV conversions.
I'm interested in converting my classic Mini Cooper to an EV as my second
conversion. My first EV conversion was my '88 Pontiac Fiero GT
www.austinev.org/evalbum/134.html
I was pretty happy with my Fiero EV conversion, completed in 1995 - range
max around 45 miles good acceleration - 3rd place in the APS EV drag races
in 1996. I used 8V Trojan deep cycles, just introduced at the time. 9" ADC
motor, Auburn Scientific controller, Zivan charger and 18 8V batteries for a
pack voltage of 144V. I put over 10K miles on this car driving back and
forth to work daily.
Now I have been happily driving my classic Mini Cooper, and the 1.3L Rover 4
cylinder engine needs repairs - so I'm ready to chuck that gas engine and
convert my mini to an EV. Since the car is well under 1500 pounds, I'm
thinking of a much smaller battery pack - but better energy density than
Lead Acid.
I've followed the information on the military surplus BB600 nicad cells and
think they may be just the ticket for my next conversion - however, the
charging requirements seems to be substantially different than for PbA. The
Marathon Nicad battery manual calls out charging using constant current at a
rate of C/2, followed by topping off at a rate almost C/4.
As I understand the PFC charger - it is constant voltage. Has anyone
attempted to control one to get constant current?
I saw on this list a posting by Rich Rudman this summer that indicated he
might be producing an updated model that would help in charging Nicad
battery packs.
Any updates on this effort Rich or Joe?
Thanks,
Monty McGraw
'88 Pontiac Fiero GT EV
'70 GE I-5 Elec-Trak Electric Garden Tractor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> What do you estimate the truck will run in the 1/4?
> ** 10.50 with lead, although its being made NHRA legal for a 9.90 class.
What kind of range do you think it might get on the street with lead?
Are you going to run 29 bats for 348 volts?
> What are you using for the connection between the motor and the 9"?
> **3.5inch dia.47inch Mark Williams shaft
Are you getting the motor shaft cut to accept a transmission slip
yoke(which one)?
-----
I could save quite a bit of money if I went this route and not use a
transmission.. not to mention, not having to deal with clutch disc
replacements..
I just wonder about range issues at highways speeds not being able to
adjust the motor rpm like one would be able to with a manual
transmission..
How many miles could the Zombie travel while doing sustained ~60 mph?
(maybe it would even be at an ideal motor rpm at that speed?)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow ... S-10, 13" motor, direct drive, sounds a lot like my project, but
done right, with twice the power, and with actual progress being made...
:o)
Where did get your manual steering box? I've looked for one for my '99
S-10, not sure if they were/are available.
More importantly, what are you using for a rear suspension? I decided to
go with a four-link from Chris Alston Chassisworks, so now I'm having to
rework the frame behind the cab, to make a place to put the front link
mounts...
--chris
On Sat, December 17, 2005 4:10 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> The project is moving along,This is a cab off restoration with the frame
> already sand blasted a couple weeks ago.The currie built 9in.ford rear
> with air
> locker will arrive this week,and be installed by Christmas.The 13in.+
> motor is
> still in pieces all over phoenix being worked on.The motor mount plate is
> being cnc,ed out of 3/4 alluminum and will also be finished this week.This
> is a
> direct drive system with the motor going where the tranny use to go.A
> zilla2k
> was ordered last week and there will be provisions to add a 2nd 2k from my
> current eliminator dragster on occasion.Thats 4000 motor amps on
> tap,hopefully
> that will get me through intersections here in Phoenix.The centerline rims
> are
> here and the goodyear tires that I won in 05(with the current eliminator
> dragster) will be mounted next week.The manual steering box is
> installed,but we are
> still waiting for the coil over springs up front.We are still waiting for
> the
> 2in.drop axels up front.The cab was stripped weeks ago.With 4000 amps on
> tap I
> decided a full cage was in order,so the back window will have to be
> plexglass
> to allow the bars to go to the rear of the shortened frame.This will allow
> the
> s10 to run in NHRAs super street class someday.I am taking some pictures
> along the way.
> The Current Eliminator dragster will be runing Sunday the 18th
> at
> speedworld in witman az.from 9am till closeing.The yearend awards(CE is
> ranked
> 3rd in superpro)will be presented at 1pm.
> Dennis Berube still with the Only 8 second EV
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So what's the problem then? If you want to see it, build it.
Or you mean you'd really like someone else to built it to
satisfy your curiosity?
Victor
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
If you use taller gear to begin with, giant torque break things
not designed to take it.
I'd really like to see a fast AC drag car be built. Direct drive
front or rear wheel, or transmission front or rear wheel drive.
Systems can be built to handle all the hp and tq you can provide with
AC...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How many amps is the controller producing in the motor loop?
What is the motor current rating?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Zappylist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:15 PM
Subject: Schwinn Stingray possible dud. Smoking after 1/2 block & not the
tires.
> I'm guessing I don't have the right ratio. I have a 7 sprocket to 36
> sprocket. 5 1/7 to one. A little smoke was comming from the brushes.
This
> is a 0.5kw pump motor from a forklift hydrolic system. I spent 300 buck
to
> have this machined. I'd like to get it working. It has plenty of weight
> and the case is very strong. I'm sure it will disipate heat better than
an
> Etek. It spins very fast under no load. Now the challenge seems to be to
> gear it down further. I'm using bike parts and simply Dremmeled a back
> cluster off and used a 36 tooth rear sprocket. I'm running 24v with a 300
> amp Altrax controller. Here are some pictures at 80% complete. It stops
> well.
> http://www.geocities.com/bassoonii/MVC-032S.JPG
> http://www.geocities.com/bassoonii/MVC-033S.JPG
> http://www.geocities.com/bassoonii/MVC-034S.JPG
> http://www.geocities.com/bassoonii/MVC-035S.JPG
> http://www.geocities.com/bassoonii/MVC-036S.JPG
> http://www.geocities.com/bassoonii/MVC-037S.JPG
> http://www.geocities.com/bassoonii/MVC-038S.JPG
> http://www.geocities.com/bassoonii/MVC-039S.JPG
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So I guess what you are saying is about 10 to 1 ratio. I was afraid of
that. NOw I have to figure out how to do it. LR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: Schwinn Stingray possible dud. Smoking after 1/2 block & not
the tires.
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 12:15:30 -0800, "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm guessing I don't have the right ratio. I have a 7 sprocket to 36
sprocket. 5 1/7 to one. A little smoke was comming from the brushes.
This
is a 0.5kw pump motor from a forklift hydrolic system. I spent 300 buck
to
have this machined. I'd like to get it working. It has plenty of weight
and the case is very strong. I'm sure it will disipate heat better than
an
Etek. It spins very fast under no load. Now the challenge seems to be to
gear it down further. I'm using bike parts and simply Dremmeled a back
cluster off and used a 36 tooth rear sprocket. I'm running 24v with a 300
amp Altrax controller. Here are some pictures at 80% complete. It stops
well.
Your gearing is far off. By example, my 36 volt GoBig scooter with
approx 12" diameter wheels, a 450 amp Altrax and a similar motor was
geared 9/41 tooth from the factory. I've upped the gearing to 11/41
to get a bit more top speed, now around 50mph.
I can't tell if yours is the 16" or 20" wheel but I'll assume the 20".
To achieve the same gearing as my scooter, for about a 45-50 mph top
speed, you'd need 41 tooth * 20"/12" = 68 teeth on the rear sprocket.
If yours is a 16" wheel then you need 41 * 16/12 = 55 teeth.
I'd actually gear somewhat lower to reduce the motor amps. I have
mine geared for performance at the expense of range. It cruises at 30
mph on level ground at about 35 amps battery current and over 100 amps
motor current. The motor current is quite high, a function of the
high gearing.
I suspect that your rear gear attachment is going to give you
problems. I suspect that the torque is going to break things. I've
been this route with much smaller motors and had problems. I suggest
trying to copy the Currie attachment which was a circle of aluminum
with grooves machined to fit over and clamp to the spokes. Perhaps
you could duplicate that in Delrin or even make a mold and cast a
mount over the spokes from epoxy/fiberglass.
An alternative that works well is one that a friend of mine uses on
his electric bike. He fastened a smaller bike rim to the spokes with
clamps and screws through the side of the rim and drives it with a
serpentine-type belt. I clocked this bike with my radar gun at 62mph.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 12/17/05 9:23:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Wow ... S-10, 13" motor, direct drive, sounds a lot like my project, but
done right, with twice the power, and with actual progress being made...
:o)
Where did get your manual steering box? I've looked for one for my '99
S-10, not sure if they were/are available.
**Its out of a jeep 20to1
More importantly, what are you using for a rear suspension? I decided to
go with a four-link from Chris Alston Chassisworks, so now I'm having to
rework the frame behind the cab, to make a place to put the front link
mounts...
**We are making our own ladder bar rear
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 12/17/05 7:58:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: S10 pickup
Date: 12/17/05 7:58:39 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ryan Stotts)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> What do you estimate the truck will run in the 1/4?
> ** 10.50 with lead, although its being made NHRA legal for a 9.90 class.
What kind of range do you think it might get on the street with lead?
Are you going to run 29 bats for 348 volts?
*Its going to be 30 bateries spliting tthe pack into 3 sections.
> What are you using for the connection between the motor and the 9"?
> **3.5inch dia.47inch Mark Williams shaft
Are you getting the motor shaft cut to accept a transmission slip
yoke(which one)?
**My motor shaft is splined.
-----
I could save quite a bit of money if I went this route and not use a
transmission.. not to mention, not having to deal with clutch disc
replacements..
I just wonder about range issues at highways speeds not being able to
adjust the motor rpm like one would be able to with a manual
transmission.. >>
**I will be happy with just 25 miles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
To test what your gearing should be, you could use the *front*
sprockets of a bike.
But I agree that stronger sprockets are in place when you are
applying power to go way over 30 MPH.
You may be able to find moped sprockets or just order stronger
(industrial?) sprockets or have them machined for a stronger
chain type.
Classmates in highschool were wrenching on their mopeds to
increase power and some were going over 100 km/h but
invariably they broke the teeth off their sprockets or ate
chains when they used the stock parts (max speed for mopeds
was 40 km/h outside city limits and there is a legal limit
to the amount of power the engine is allowed to produce in NL)
BTW - do you know (have you calculated) the RPM of your motor?
If you have a 20" wheel then at 40 MPH it will rotate at
40mi/(60min x pi x 20in) = 2534400in/3770min*in = 672 RPM.
Your gearing will up that to 672 x 36/7 = 3457 RPM.
That does not sound like a small motor's redline to me, but
what is your motor redline?
Another data point - what is your motor current?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 1:14 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Schwinn Stingray possible dud. Smoking after 1/2 block &
not the tires.
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 12:15:30 -0800, "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I'm guessing I don't have the right ratio. I have a 7 sprocket to 36
>sprocket. 5 1/7 to one. A little smoke was comming from the brushes.
This
>is a 0.5kw pump motor from a forklift hydrolic system. I spent 300 buck to
>have this machined. I'd like to get it working. It has plenty of weight
>and the case is very strong. I'm sure it will disipate heat better than an
>Etek. It spins very fast under no load. Now the challenge seems to be to
>gear it down further. I'm using bike parts and simply Dremmeled a back
>cluster off and used a 36 tooth rear sprocket. I'm running 24v with a 300
>amp Altrax controller. Here are some pictures at 80% complete. It stops
>well.
Your gearing is far off. By example, my 36 volt GoBig scooter with
approx 12" diameter wheels, a 450 amp Altrax and a similar motor was
geared 9/41 tooth from the factory. I've upped the gearing to 11/41
to get a bit more top speed, now around 50mph.
I can't tell if yours is the 16" or 20" wheel but I'll assume the 20".
To achieve the same gearing as my scooter, for about a 45-50 mph top
speed, you'd need 41 tooth * 20"/12" = 68 teeth on the rear sprocket.
If yours is a 16" wheel then you need 41 * 16/12 = 55 teeth.
I'd actually gear somewhat lower to reduce the motor amps. I have
mine geared for performance at the expense of range. It cruises at 30
mph on level ground at about 35 amps battery current and over 100 amps
motor current. The motor current is quite high, a function of the
high gearing.
I suspect that your rear gear attachment is going to give you
problems. I suspect that the torque is going to break things. I've
been this route with much smaller motors and had problems. I suggest
trying to copy the Currie attachment which was a circle of aluminum
with grooves machined to fit over and clamp to the spokes. Perhaps
you could duplicate that in Delrin or even make a mold and cast a
mount over the spokes from epoxy/fiberglass.
An alternative that works well is one that a friend of mine uses on
his electric bike. He fastened a smaller bike rim to the spokes with
clamps and screws through the side of the rim and drives it with a
serpentine-type belt. I clocked this bike with my radar gun at 62mph.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
> can a charger automatically detect whether it is charging a wet lead acid,
> gel or agm?
It can guess; but this guess is of limited accuracy. There is no guaranteed
method to tell the difference between a flooded, gel, or AGM simply from its
charging voltage/current characteristics.
I suspect they are making some assumption, such as "floodeds have higher
internal resistance". Then they measure the internal resistance, such as by
looking at the voltage change at two different charging currents. If the
internal resistance is "low", they assume it's an AGM (but it could also be a
flooded starting battery). If the internal resistance is "high" they assume
it is flooded (but it could also be an old AGM).
> And my point was: it can cause a battery harm if it is charged with the
> wrong manufacturer's specification. If I charged my Gel batteries with more
> than 2.35 V per cell at 20 deg C, it will eventually ruin the battery,
> whereas an AGM can take more voltage.
Well... it's more complicated than that. Charging a gel cell to higher
voltages won't actually hurt it, as long as you KNOW you aren't putting in an
excessive number of amphours.
If I wanted to make a charger that "automatically" picked the right algorithm,
I'd have it watch the amphours actually removed during discharge, and put
back that many plus about 2-10% more. As it's putting in the overcharge, it
would watch the actual voltage; when it stops rising, the battery is "full".
See how many extra amphours it took to get to this point. If it only took
2-3% more, it's a gel; if it took 3-5% it's an AGM, and if it took 5% or
more, it's flooded.
But this algorithm will still fail if you try it on an old battery.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Jim Coate wrote:
> I had seriously considered a "hybrid drive" AC/DC motor combo a while
> back. The dual motors were combined with dual batteries packs - one
> LiIon and one AGM. So the AC motor and LiIons did the basic cruising
> propulsion (and regen); the DC motor powered by the small AGM pack
> kicked in for more power when the accelerator is pushed down further.
I've considered this as well. Use a small, efficient AC motor for cruising,
and a larger DC motor for rapid accelleration and hill-climbing. An
efficienct EV shouldn't need more than 5-10kw or so of AC power; that's a
fairly small motor and industrial inverter, 1/10th the size (and cost) of
what it would take if the AC drive had to do everything itself. Then have a
big series motor and simple PWM controller that can produce 50-100kw peak.
The key is that it only needs to do so for short periods of time; it never
needs to run continuous-duty.
> As a ground up production type vehicle it would be a ridiculously
> complicated way to do things.
Normal cars are already ridiculously complicated! How could this be any worse?
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Or it's a large, warm floodie versus a smaller, cold AGM. These
wouldn't seem differentiable by resistance. And if you had to program
the capacity in, it would seem logical to declare battery type in the
same way.
Do we actually know of any charger making this claim?
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
It can guess; but this guess is of limited accuracy. There is no guaranteed
method to tell the difference between a flooded, gel, or AGM simply from its
charging voltage/current characteristics.
I suspect they are making some assumption, such as "floodeds have higher
internal resistance". Then they measure the internal resistance, such as by
looking at the voltage change at two different charging currents. If the
internal resistance is "low", they assume it's an AGM (but it could also be a
flooded starting battery). If the internal resistance is "high" they assume
it is flooded (but it could also be an old AGM).
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You are forgetting the 5 in the front, where the radiator used to be.
Ad also says 8 in front and 10 in rear = 18 = 108V, a rather common voltage
for that time. Should still be Highway-capable, but may be nicknamed
"el sluggo" by some. Many have experience with these type of setups.
Regards.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 2:28 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Yet another e-bay find
Solar Assisted Electric Vehicle Ford Escort Car
Item number: 6023166500
The description speaks for itself. I counted 13 x 6 V batteries ... Looks
underpowered and in need of some serious TLC. I wouldn't pay over $800 for
it.
The shipping charge is pretty reasonable. Needs major work! Maybe the
motor
and adapter are OK and could be put into a different 80's Escort to create a
Jet Industries look-a-like. Controller - ??? Charger - ??? Only 78 V???
Steve
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Certainly better electrics have been built. The ETV-1, as you
described it, is a far cry from the AC Propulsion Tzero: 300 miles of
range at freeway speeds, and 0-60 mph in 3.6 seconds on Lion
batteries. Even on lead the Tzero had about 100 miles range and 0-60
mph in under 4 seconds! The GM EV1 was fast (0-60 in under 8
seconds), did about 80 miles on lead and about 200 miles on Nimh.
John Wayland's Red Beastie inexpensively did an honest 100+ miles on
lead, something anyone could duplicate. Wayland and Wilde have street
legal cars that have run 12's (I think from memory) in the 1/4.
Though not practical street vehicles, we have Dennis Berube's
dragster running 8's in the 1/4, Bill Dube's killacycle hitting 150
mph in the 1/4, Ohio States Buckeye Bullet hitting 315 mph on the
Salt Flats, and the Electric Imp by ProEV able to do 10 two minute
racing laps.
Can 25 year old technology come even close?
Hobbyist converters could be building 100 mile range cars, but are
choosing not to. I can see several reasons for that:
Of course, to save money. A 30 mile range car is going to be cheaper
than 100 miles of range.
The gas crisis of that era is distant memory. Converters are not
building long range cars with the fear they can't get gasoline for
longer trips in the gas car.
Cars are much faster today. Back then VW bug performance was fine.
The bar has been raised. I think many people will trade range for
better speed.
You have more choices today. You now have affordable AGM batteries
like Orbitals, and relatively affordable 1/2 megaWatt controllers
like the Zilla. The parts are available to build a fast EV, you
actually have a choice. In the old days, high performance wasn't
really on the menu, so you might as well have gone for range instead.
Modern donor cars are much heavier than older cars, so this in
general would cut down range.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I've been studying EV's since the late 80's and owned three between
> 1998 and
> 2004. After all these years (much less than some of you have been
> involved -
> I realize), something just doesn't add up. Today, I am seeing EV's
> (like the
> Rav4) with 35,000 - 40,000 miles on a battery pack and still going,
> range of
> 80 + miles, performance that actually keeps up with traffic, etc.
> Basically, a
> very useful, high performance, reliable, long range, practical car
> - with an
> electric motor. In the past, even with my own cars (and others I
> am familiar
> with), I saw people getting 5,000 - 8,000 miles on a battery pack,
> marginal
> performance, no options, really more hobby cars than mainstream
> practical
> transportation. There are a lot of exceptions - those people who
> custom engineered
> and built excellent examples of EVs. I commend the people who made
> those, and
> all those others striving to do the same. But, honestly, if I look
> at the
> vehicles for sale, they typically have very low miles, have been
> through several
> battery packs already, and the performance just isn't there.
>
> Then, there is one of my old cars - the 1979 Chrysler ETV-1. You
> may have
> read about it or seen it in a museum. The car only had 108 V, 18 x
> 6 V,
> basically golf cart batteries, a sep ex DC motor (no bigger than
> the one in my Jet
> 007), PWM controller - custom engineered by GE (1977 - 1979), and
> single speed
> gearbox. Besides that, it was just a basic car. The car had a 75
> MPH top
> speed (most likely regulated to maximize the range) and a 70 mile
> range (on that
> 1979 technology). And, it had very good acceleration - road tested
> by Motor
> Trend (I believe). This is the real performance, not some
> exaggeration. In the
> city, the car actually had a maximum distance record of something
> like 106
> miles. Well, the controller (which was also the charger) quit, and
> I was never
> able to get it back to its original specifications. Knowing what I
> know now,
> most likely just a few of the caps went bad, but who knows what all
> those
> years of sitting did to the car.
>
> So, my question is .... What happened? Where are these cars? Why
> can't we
> duplicate them? If we could, why don't I see cars like these on
> the trading
> post and e-bay and for that matter in my garage? It looks like the
> technology
> is there, it has been proven (at least by the Rav4's example).
> And, we don't
> have to use a $40,000+ battery pack (I don't think). How much
> would it really
> cost to build one of these? Again (I am generalizing), the kits /
> conversions
> that I have seen can get the 70 - 80 MPH top speed, but typically
> have more
> batteries, more advanced batteries (overall more stored energy),
> performance
> that is still somewhat laching in my opinion, and usable range in
> the 35 - 40
> mile range and even less on a good day. And, I am still not
> convinced that
> typical people with 144 V lead acid cars are getting more than
> 10,000 miles out of
> a pack. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am just generalizing
> based on
> what I have seen and heard. Months ago, I asked about the Lead
> Acid Solectra
> and was disappointed to hear a usable range of 35 miles (I hope I
> am not
> misquoting anyone, but that was my understanding).
>
> If someone could actually build an EV with performance matching the
> Rav4, or
> even as good at my old ETV-1 (we are talking about 1979 technology
> here), I
> think the public really would buy it. The Rav4 proves that to me.
> "Ordinary"
> people bought those things. They didn't necessarily have to know a
> volt from
> an amp, DC or AC, or have a PHD in EE.
>
> I guess my bottom line question is - What happened? Why aren't
> these cars
> available? Will they be available again - anytime in the near
> future. Or, do I
> really need to save my money and try to buy a Rav4 in about 10
> years when
> they will have aged to the point where I can afford it. The
> technology should
> still be OK, even after 10 years of use, assuming the battery pack
> can be
> rebuilt to original specs. I just don't get it ...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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Huh. These guys are thinking in reverse. They made a speed bump that
generates electricity from the car driving over it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/somerset/4535408.stm
Not really sure why this would even be useful since it's not a reliable,
consistent power source and solar should have otherwise been able to do
a remote power job... but I make it a point to applaud creative thinking.
Danny
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Huh. These guys are thinking in reverse. They made a speed bump that
generates electricity from the car driving over it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/somerset/4535408.stm
Not really sure why this would even be useful since it's not a
reliable, consistent power source and solar should have otherwise been
able to do a remote power job... but I make it a point to applaud
creative thinking.
This is the UK. Maybe solar isn't a practical solution in the typically
very cloudy environment, plus these ramps would work day and night so
long as there is traffic rolling over them.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
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Hi All
Well, it didn't take too much arm twisting from Jim Husted (none at all,
actually, but he did encourage me to go for it) to modify my motor for
series/parallel fields. So now that is going to be my play-time over the
quieter days between Christmas and New year.
At the moment my motor has 4 terminals on top, all in a row, with the
fields all in series. I have a collection of 48V contactors from forklifts,
with pretty large contacts. 3 contactors - one to series connect and two to
parallel connect them will do the deed. Don't need to break under load, but
I will need to be careful how I switch over (may need to use the Zilla
series/parallel control for that).
So the box I was going to put on top of the motor for the terminal
connections is going to get bigger, to take the ex-forklift contactors. The
motor terminals are going to become 6, in a cruciform shape (only way to
miss everything else):
F1b
F1a F2b A1 A2
F2a
M+ to F1a, F2b to A1 (not reversing the motor, otherwise there'd be more
contactors).
Series field for lower RPM higher torque connects F1b to F2a.
Parallel connects F1a to F2a and F1b to F2b.
Realistically it will be 4 to 6 months before I'll be able to report the
results (get the vehicle on the road). This is not for racing, but
commuting/errands in a hilly town.
One thing I found today, whilst working out the connection arrangements and
clearances of the motor, was a number under the brush band. My motor is
old, but I have no idea how old. Or maybe now I do... I found a number
(bears no relation to any other number on the ID plate) 15425 55. Hmm...
55? maybe 1955? Could be, the forklift it came from was pretty ancient, but
it had already been mostly stripped - just the two motors (lift and
traction), diff and a chassis left, so no other clues as to the age of the
beast. I didn't think it was older than late 1960s, but...
So, any one with historical knowlege that can give a clue as to the age of
this motor? Steel-clamped commutator, plain series fields/divided armature,
"Ransomes DC Motor", made by Ransomes, Sims and Jefferies Ltd, Ipswich (I
take that to be the UK one). Type T148A. Was in a forklift that I would
expect to have been badged "Ransomes", driving straight to the diff. If the
fork had used a resistor/contactor control I wouldn't have expected plain
series, did they make SCR controllers that far back?
Maybe this motor is 50 years old?
Regards
James
1978 Daihatsu 1300kg cab/chassis truck under conversion... getting more
"techy" every day!
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