EV Digest 5010
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Viper Torque Correction
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Viper Torque Correction
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Clutchless shift with rpm-matching?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Has DC Reached its Limits?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Clutchless shift with rpm-matching?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Clutchless shift with rpm-matching?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Vs: Re: Clutchless shift with rpm-matching?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Circuit Breaker for 370 volts
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Maxing out a Zilla (crazy idea)
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: I stepped on my cord and now I don't know the polarity of my charger
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Vs: Re: Clutchless shift with rpm-matching?
by Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: unsubscribe
by will burton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Predictions for the Monster Garage '62 Electric Chevy?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: generator to power TAL inductive charger?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Predictions for the Monster Garage '62 Electric Chevy?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Vs: Re: Cooling in cold climate
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Maxing out a Zilla (crazy idea)
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Clutchless shift with rpm-matching?
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Lee Hart's "Christmas Car" (long)
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Clutchless shift with rpm-matching?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Viper Torque Correction
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Has DC Reached its Limits?
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Failure Modes
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) scale
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Ford EV heater core on eBay
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) Re: Clutchless shift with rpm-matching?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) 159 dollars for 8 amp Soneil Charger
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 2005-12-20 at 16:22 +1100, Mark Fowler wrote:
> Fowler's law of direct electric drive:
> If you have enough torque to break a transmission, you don't need a
> transmission.
>
Robison's Law of Naive Not-Carefully-Thought-out Torque-Mania:
"If you can have well over a thousand ft-lbs of torque straight from the
motor, imagine what you could have at 2:1 reduction." As I once
commented to Wayland, I will not be satisfied until the fabric of
reality warps out of shape around my powertrain. Unfortunately, this
will likely include the rear half of the truck.
Also, in my earlier post, yet another typical screwup ... I meant the
"T56" not the T10; the former being the 6-speed used in the Viper (as
well as the Aston Martin Vanquish), the latter being an earlier Tremec
model that was among those I looked at, and which is not as strong.
My neigbor asked why I wasn't using my truck's existing (NV1500)
transmission, which just made me laugh. It has an input torque rating of
170 ft-lbs.
--chris
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Robison
> > Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 6:33 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Viper Torque Correction
> >
> >
> > On Mon, December 19, 2005 9:27 am, John Wayland said:
> >
> > Thanks for the clarification, John!
> >
> > When I was looking at manual transmissions some time ago, I
> > was dismayed
> > to find that the strongest one I could find (that could be
> > purchased by
> > itself off the shelf) was the 6-speed Borg Warner T-10, rated
> > variously at
> > 600-650 ft-lbs input torque, with the enhanced unit that DC
> > uses in the
> > Viper being a bit stronger. I think I confused the Viper
> > transmission's
> > input rating with the engine's maximum output, and even still
> > I may have
> > overstated the case.
> >
> > At any rate, this is what made me realize that my only solid
> > transmission
> > options are a Powerglide, or a Lenco or similar planetary racing
> > transmission, and that therefore the money just isn't there
> > to make that a
> > part of my initial design. So, for now, direct-drive it is.
> >
> > --chris
> >
> >
> >
> > > Hello to All,
> > >
> > > While I'm on my 'keeping stats and performance predictions
> > accurate as
> > > possible' kick, I wanted to correct this, from a bit more
> > than a week ago:
> > >
> > > Chris ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >>the 1100+ ft-lbs I'm predicting from this motor at 2000A
> > >>-- while impressive versus e.g. a Viper's 700ft-lb V-10 --
> > >>
> > >
> > > The most badass production Viper to date, is the current
> > 510 hp version.
> > > No way, does it's V10 engine make 700 ft. lbs. of torque.
> > It makes a max
> > > of 535 ft. lbs. @ 4200 rpm.
> > >
> > > See Ya....John Wayland
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keep your motor loop current limit turned down, and nothing will get hurt.
It will feel similar to an AC system with lots of RPM capability and a low
on torque at low RPMs.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 10:09 PM
Subject: RE: Viper Torque Correction
> My neigbor asked why I wasn't using my truck's existing (NV1500)
> transmission, which just made me laugh. It has an input torque rating of
> 170 ft-lbs.
>
> --chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
...
It works this way because the opamp adjusts its output so its + and - inputs
are at the same voltage. This only happens when the input motor and speed
sensing motor produce the same voltage, which means they are at the same
speed.
Thanks for the circuit lee, but you're ignoring dynamics of the system.
Toy motors have negligible rotor mass, but even them cannot track
sudden changes in speed. EV motor have to slow down from, say, 6k RPM to
3k RPM in a fraction of a second if you at least want to switch gears
as fast as with clutch.
For an EV, the drive motor is far larger, and the amplifier is your
controller. It doesn't matter if they are AC or DC.
Yes it does. With AC system you don't really need a feedback loop
if the slip is calibrated. You just set the frequency, and the motor
accelerates/decelerates very fast (of course the frequency value
isn't just loaded, you *must* have a ramp tracking actual speed,
but it is very fast).
For DC system you only can set analog throttle input, so *must* use
a feedback. This is the difference and set this up is not trivial.
Not saying it's undoable. It is very challenging - I have seen this
tried out with analog throttle control. You can switch gears
by "power shift" where you force the stick to engage so mechanically
equalize the speeds rather than let the system do it. That's "cheating".
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Robison wrote:
How do you make anything go faster? Beyond reducing weight and resistance,
I like Otmar's line -- The answer is... "More Power".
--chris
... as long as you keep traction. Beyond that point it makes no sense
to increase power (just fantacizing about 20MW controller
and 10 lb battery doesn't hurt and doesn't cost anything).
"No matter how much isn't enough" concept may sound cool but
has nothing to do with engineering reality. Sorry to spoil
your dreams.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Would it be very complicated construction? Easier in AC or DC system?
It's not particularly complicated. All it adds is a couple of rpm sensors...
It sounds Lee like you've actually haven't tries this in real life.
Unfortunately this is not that easy.
If you use analog control and throttle input to set RPM
you will find that you cannot set desired motor speed matching
tranny in less than about 4-5 seconds. Too much filtering
in the feedback loop slows down response, but increasing
gain will cause oscillations (motor runs too fast, too slow, too fast
again) *before* reaction time drops to an acceptable level.
To function well you have to just bang a frequency *number*
to the CPU controlling output, it uses hard regen or hard
acceleration to set it almost in instant, but also KI and KP
constants have to be tuned really well to anticipate
"zero error" point and make feedback to behave.
It is NOT trivial to implement, although the theory behind
is well understood. You've explained correctly how it should be
done. Now try it and you will add that unless the [software
and hardware] means are there, it's not worth the trouble -
unfortunately it will not work satisfactorily.
Jon Sheer may tell you his thoughts on this (I believe he had
tried to implement it).
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are right it sounds pretty challenging to get a series DC motor
to rotate a certain speed. However, if you have a sepex system, you
don't need fancy feedback. You just set some fixed value of field,
and some fixed value of armature, and the motor will rotate a certain
speed. Since you wouldn't need gobs of current to do this, powering
the armature with the DCDC converter, and controlling the field with
the controller might do it. Even easier might be using a resistor in
series with the field, and a resistor in series with the armature.
I did a poor man's experiment of this on my sepex Kostov motor. I
hooked up a battery to the armature, and a battery charger to the
field. By changing the charger voltage the motor would very quickly
change speeds.
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> Thanks for the circuit lee, but you're ignoring dynamics of the
> system.
>
> Toy motors have negligible rotor mass, but even them cannot track
> sudden changes in speed. EV motor have to slow down from, say, 6k
> RPM to
> 3k RPM in a fraction of a second if you at least want to switch
> gears
> as fast as with clutch.
>
> Yes it does. With AC system you don't really need a feedback loop
> if the slip is calibrated. You just set the frequency, and the
> motor
> accelerates/decelerates very fast (of course the frequency value
> isn't just loaded, you *must* have a ramp tracking actual speed,
> but it is very fast).
>
> For DC system you only can set analog throttle input, so *must* use
> a feedback. This is the difference and set this up is not trivial.
>
> Not saying it's undoable. It is very challenging - I have seen this
> tried out with analog throttle control. You can switch gears
> by "power shift" where you force the stick to engage so
> mechanically
> equalize the speeds rather than let the system do it. That's
> "cheating".
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shift lever has position sensors (reed switches in my case) which close
when you only start moving lever toward desired gear, so the logic knows
your intent far enough ahead of time to react.
Decoding stick position is not your greatest challenge :-)
Victor
Seppo Lindborg wrote:
But then the logic must know which gear is the next one. I mean, let's say I
have third gear on. I need a different RPM in the motor depending if I am going
next to switch to second gear, or if I am going to switch to fourth gear.
Seppo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:33 AM 19/12/05 -0800, Don wrote:
In the New Beetle I am using a 3 phase 600A AC circuit breaker to act as a
safety device as well as a switch to disconnect the pack. This darn thing
is too big and heavy, and I was wondering if there are other alternatives
for switching off the 370V pack. I have 4 fuses as well, so this is really
used as a large switch.
Any suggestions?
Hi Don - and all,
How many amps are you drawing? if it is going to be less than 400A, then
get a similar breaker but for 400A. Next, take to it with an angle grinder
or similar, and make it 2-pole for 2/3 size or if you only want to break
the loop, 1-pole. I have cut one down for my vehicle. (pics at):
http://jcmassey.gallery.netspace.net.au/Daihatsu-pics-01
Mine is rated 250VDC at 25,000Amps, for your 370V system you could use two
poles in series (probably one in each of B+ and B-), or look up the
manufacturers' data and find out if it is rate for 400V at 2500A (or whatever).
Hope this helps
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:57 AM 18/12/05 -0600, Chris wrote:
This thread got me thinking ... There seems to be a great divide between a
Zilla's theoretical maximum power handling capability and what folks
normally get out of them on the strip, given the sag inherent in any
battery chemistry.<snip>
First, choose a small, high-power battery <snip>
Now to prevent the Zilla from ever seeing an input voltage above its
maximum, say you had a simple voltage divider,
Not, since the Zilla can go from 100% on to 0% on in 1 switching cycle -
around 0.00005 of a second. your rheostats can't do that.
However, how about a XHV Zilla capable of 600V input? It probably would
stay switching always in order to keep the motor volts below the maximum
setting, so probably never go 100% on. The battery string would never see
motor loop amps, so (for example) a single string of batteries - say 12V x
40 batteries, sagging to (say) 8V at 2000A is still 320V, which may reach
100% on for a moment at peak power point, if the motor limit is 320V. As
the motor RPMs continue to rise, the battery amps would fall and the Zilla
would start switching again to restrict the max voltage on the motor.
The problem I can see is that the motor will still see the battery pack
*peak* voltages, during the on-time of the pulse cycles, possibly
initiating flash-overs. So it may be (another crazy idea, related to your
rheostat idea) better to custom-build a Zilla pre-stage, that is switching
through an inductor to deliver power to the input of a normal Zilla
(keeping the capacitors charged). The pre-stage is switched to maintain the
300V (or whatever) the Zilla motor max is allowed to be. How's that for a
crazy idea?
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Probably blew the FET. I reversed the polarity. I got twisted around.
Plugged it in. That's it. Anybody know the board in this little critter?
Very simple. Anybody mod this charger. It's the 5 amp fast charger.
Currie used them and EV Warrior did too. It was a great charger. Nice
transformer the Diode bridge is putting out 20.4vdc. It is the white
stripped wire that is posiive. I'm not getting any voltage out of the
center leg on the FET.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 11:13 PM
Subject: RE: I stepped on my cord and now I don't know the polarity of my
charger
You can check marking on the charger (label) to see if it has a clue
or load the charger with 2x same 12V car lamp in series.
If you have a high-amp diode available, you can use that to make sure
voltage flows in correct direction only as well, but voltage will be
0.7 to 1 Volt higher, so charging may be way off - just for checking
charger action its great.
Last option: open charger, as you ripped the cord, its likely out of
warranty anyway.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 10:07 PM
To: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: I stepped on my cord and now I don't know the polarity of
my charger
Won't register voltage unless there is a load. If it gets reversed and is
plugged in for too long the smoke comes out. LR........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 7:53 PM
Subject: RE: I stepped on my cord and now I don't know the polarity of my
charger
White stripe usually indicates positive.
Is cord loose from other end too?
Plug charger in and measure voltage...
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 7:32 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Fw: I stepped on my cord and now I don't know the polarity of
my charger
I pulled the wires out of my Currie Fast charger. It's looks like the EV
Warrior charger. 24v Microphone plug. Black wires with one striped
white.
Which is positive? I wired it white positive plugged it in real quick no
response so I pulled it out. Quickly. Thanks for any help.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Terve Seppo :)
if two gears is enough (and usually is), then maybe its easier because
there are only two choices. If the system detects first which gear are
you shifting from (=the known rpm-difference between input-output) , it
knows how much higher/lower motor rpm should be set for the other one.
There could be a button in the shift lever you push when you start
shifting to wake up the system and to let it know the present rpm, if
needed. Maybe it would make shifting a bit faster also compared to a
system that wakes up in the neutral position.
Again, I have no idea how to do this in practice though.
Osmo
19.12.2005 kello 20:43, Seppo Lindborg kirjoitti:
But then the logic must know which gear is the next one. I mean, let's
say I
have third gear on. I need a different RPM in the motor depending if I
am going
next to switch to second gear, or if I am going to switch to fourth
gear.
Seppo
----Alkuperäinen viesti----
Lähettäjä: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Päivämäärä: Dec 19, 2005 10:37:57 AM
Vastaanottaja: [email protected]
Aihe: Re: Clutchless shift with rpm-matching?
I'm currently doing exactly that (in a new conversion) and new
inverters
will have this clutchless shift RPM matching function as standard
feature. Reads tranny shaft rotation speed and immediately sets slip
compensated motor frequency to match as soon as you grip and move
shift
stick.
Have no idea how one would adjust frequency (I should say rotation
speed) of a DC motor and make it stable. Using analog throttle
input seem too coarse - how does one set the rotation to, say,
3,548 min^-1 for easy shift if the tranny is going this fast?
One more AC setup advantage :-)
Victor
Osmo Sarin wrote:
To help to shift on the fly: when the clutch pedal (without a
clutch) or
a hand switch is pressed, or gear is shifted to neutral, the
controller
would ignore the acc pedal signal and set motor rpm to same as
gearbox
rpm. Maybe the speedometer sensor signal could be used to give the
gearbox rpm?
Would it be very complicated construction? Easier in AC or DC system?
Thanks in advance,
Osmo Sarin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please remove my subscription to the EV list. Thanks, Will Burton
On 12/10/05, Jon Pascoe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It very well may not make a 1/4 mile without falling apart! The thing
about the MG (Good and bad) is that you have no control over what you
start with. (You run what you brung). If the front end doesn't hold
together it may self destruct on it's own. If it does I'll be there to
throw as many of the spewn about Li packs into my shopping cart as I
can. They should break free fairly cleanly and they have a pretty good
case on them. No seat belt, no cage, lousy brakes, could make for
carnage planned or unplanned. Who knows, Maybe REALITY will rear it's
head in this reality show.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 22:13:25 EST
Subject: Re: Predictions for the Monster Garage '62 Electric Chevy?
In a message dated 12/19/05 7:08:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: Predictions for the Monster Garage '62 Electric Chevy?
Date: 12/19/05 7:08:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tom Shay)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
It's been interesting to read people's estimates of how fast the
Monster Garage Chevy will be. It might be even more interesting
to speculate on how FAR it will go before it dies. Will it go for
a quarter mile? Will its rear wheels make it across the starting line?
I'm concerned that the people producing the show might rather have
the car fail in a spectacular way than suceed as an EV. >>
**A concern I have talked to Rich about!!! The last MG show goes out
with a
bang and flash.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hah, I have a start-o-matic lister set too, a more modern looking
single cylinder air cooled one, only intended for lighting at about
1.2kW though if I remember rightly.
A bigger watercooled version (CHP to heat the house), running on
un-refined waste vegetable oil to charge an EV would be pretty neat..
one day..
Great smell when you fire them up on diesel though, isn't it! :)
Regards
Evan
On 12/19/05, Paul Compton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ideal engine for the job; http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/lister.html
>
> I have an original single cylinder version;
> http://www.powercubes.com/listers_3.html
>
>
> Paul Compton
> www.sciroccoev.co.uk
> www.morini-mania.co.uk
> www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 6:34 AM
> Subject: generator to power TAL inductive charger?
>
>
> > In the aftermath of hurricane Wilma this fall, our local grid was down for
> > a
> > week and a half, during which time we had no way to charge our two
> > RAV4-EVs
> > and had to go back to driving our old Honda Civic, which now only serves
> > as
> > a standby back-up for just such kinds of emergency needs. Last year the
> > grid was down for two 1-week periods after hurricanes Francis and Jeanne,
> > so
> > this has unfortunately become an annual ordeal. I am looking to buy a
> > portable diesel generator to use for powering a few essential household
> > circuits (e.g. refrigerator, a few lights, and hopefully even one of our
> > two
> > 19.5-SEER CAC units) plus also for powering the TAL inductive charger
> > (although when using the TAL, that would be the *only* circuit connnected
> > to
> > the generator, i.e. everything else would be turned off and disconnected).
> > The reason I want to use a diesel generator and not a gasoline generator
> > is
> > two-fold. First, it would allow me to use a renewable fuel -- B100
> > biodiesel, as opposed to non-renewable gasoline, which is something that
> > we
> > are purposely trying to move away from and minimize in our lives. Second,
> > I
> > don't really have any good place to store a large amount of (smelly,
> > volatile, and dangerous, especially in 95 degree heat) gasoline on my
> > property for an extended period of 4-6 months, which is how long our
> > hurricane season runs here. But I can definitely store B100 biodiesel
> > [which of course is just trans-esterified (i.e. thinned-out) vegetable
> > oil]
> > in 55-gallon drums inside our air-conditioned garage studio. Two
> > 55-gallon
> > drums would likely power all of our essential needs for about 8 days or
> > so.
> >
> > In a quick internet search, I found the following two 6.5kW portable
> > diesel
> > generators:
> > (or semi-portable, I guess I should say, as these things weigh around 520
> > lbs., so I'm not sure how easy they are to push around, even on the wheel
> > kits that come with them as accessories, which kind of begs the question
> > of
> > how would I even be able to lift them up and turn them over to install the
> > wheel kit on them in the first place)
> >
> > Kubota GL7000
> > http://generator.kubota.jp/gl/gl_7000_usa.html
> >
> > Yamaha EDL6500S
> > www.yamaha-motor.com/outdoor/products/modelhome/452/0/home.aspx
> >
> > Both of these generators have 4-stroke, 2 cylinder, liquid-cooled diesel
> > engines, and both have a maximum continuous output rating of 27.1A at
> > 240V.
> > If I'm not mistaken, I believe the TAL draws a continuous 27A. So my
> > question is: would these generators be able to power the TAL, or would
> > 27.1A not provide enough headroom (at only 0.1A) above the 27A that the
> > TAL
> > needs to be able to run?
> >
> > I temporarily ran the TAL off of my 30A dryer circuit without any problems
> > for the first month that I had it until I got a new 40A, 240V circuit
> > installed, so I know that as little as 3A is enough headroom for it to run
> > OK, but 0.1A leaves me wondering and somewhat doubtful. Anyone know?
> >
> > Or would I need to move up to Kubota's next highest model, which is the
> > 10kW
> > GL11000 that has a maximum continuous output rating of 41.7A at 240V?
> > (and is even heavier at 650 lbs!)
> > http://generator.kubota.jp/gl/gl_11000_usa.html
> >
> > (Yamaha doesn't have a higher output model above its 6.5kW diesel
> > generator.)
> >
> > Does anyone have any experience with either Kubota or Yamaha diesel
> > generators and/or know anything about their quality and reliability?
> >
> > Thanks for any advice.
> >
> > Charles Whalen
> > Delray Beach, Florida
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
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In a message dated 12/20/05 3:10:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< It very well may not make a 1/4 mile without falling apart! The thing
about the MG (Good and bad) is that you have no control over what you
start with. (You run what you brung). If the front end doesn't hold
together it may self destruct on it's own. If it does I'll be there to
throw as many of the spewn about Li packs into my shopping cart as I
can. They should break free fairly cleanly and they have a pretty good
case on them. No seat belt, no cage, lousy brakes, could make for
carnage planned or unplanned. Who knows, Maybe REALITY will rear it's
head in this reality show.
Shawn
>>
I want to bring my local high school football team maybe they can catch
enough of the loose ones for team CE as the BIS CAN rumbles down the track.
DennisBerube
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Hi Seppo,
I taped the grill completely, but there is a gap under the bumper
where air can be drawn in if the fan starts (for example when
charging). There is no temperature gauge as standard but the
temperature limits on the pack and the electronic box are fairly
conservative - you get an orange light if anything is too hot. So I
will remove the cover when I notice the fan running after driving.
Also I have made a device that shows vehicle info including
temperature (http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2/myev.html)
My range suffers a little bit with temperatures <0 degrees C. But my
battery is quite old and high milage so maybe that's why.
Regards
Evan
On 12/19/05, Seppo Lindborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's the old trick that was much used here in Finland before the era of good
> thermostats. Maybe it will be reintroduced now when we have so effective
> diesel
> motors that their waste heat cannot keep the cabin heated anymore.
>
> I have also been thinking about that covering for my Peugeot but so far have
> driven without (-12 centigrade so far, haven't noticed any problems).
>
> Do you cover whole the front grill, or leave a little opening for some
> airflow? And remember that this trick is safer with ICE cars since they have
> water thermometer so that you notice (in the spring) when you need to remove
> the covering. There is no thermometer in Citroen/Peugeot...
>
> Seppo
>
>
> >----Alkuperäinen viesti----
> >Lähettäjä: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Päivämäärä: Dec 14, 2005 2:02:48 PM
> >Vastaanottaja: [email protected]
> >Aihe: Re: Cooling in cold climate
>
> >
> >The cooling pumps on my Citroen run all the time as well, and it
> >over-cools the batteries in freezing weather, so I have taped off the
> >front grill. I don't want to stop the water flow as it helps to keep
> >the modules at the same temperature, although they are located in
> >different places.
> >
> >I think that using a thermostatic switch might be tricky unless you
> >can sense the temperature inside the inverter and motor.
> >
> >
>
>
>
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I was thinking along the same lines a James (I think).
It has been said that you never want the motor to see more than 170V, right?
So, if we get to the point of having an EHV Zilla (1200v IGBT's are
available..) Then will we need to start using 240V or 500V nominal motors,
right?? The good news is high volt motors seem to be dirt cheap. (I may be
wrong there)
Has DC met it's limit?? I don't think DC has even got started yet!!
Stay Charged!
Hump
At 11:57 AM 18/12/05 -0600, Chris wrote:
>This thread got me thinking ... There seems to be a great divide
>between a Zilla's theoretical maximum power handling capability and
>what folks normally get out of them on the strip, given the sag
>inherent in any battery chemistry.<snip> First, choose a small,
>high-power battery <snip>
>
>Now to prevent the Zilla from ever seeing an input voltage above its
>maximum, say you had a simple voltage divider,
Not, since the Zilla can go from 100% on to 0% on in 1 switching cycle - around
0.00005 of a second. your rheostats can't do that.
However, how about a XHV Zilla capable of 600V input? It probably would stay
switching always in order to keep the motor volts below the maximum setting, so
probably never go 100% on. The battery string would never see motor loop amps,
so (for example) a single string of batteries - say 12V x 40 batteries, sagging
to (say) 8V at 2000A is still 320V, which may reach 100% on for a moment at
peak power point, if the motor limit is 320V. As the motor RPMs continue to
rise, the battery amps would fall and the Zilla would start switching again to
restrict the max voltage on the motor.
The problem I can see is that the motor will still see the battery pack
*peak* voltages, during the on-time of the pulse cycles, possibly initiating
flash-overs. So it may be (another crazy idea, related to your rheostat idea)
better to custom-build a Zilla pre-stage, that is switching through an inductor
to deliver power to the input of a normal Zilla (keeping the capacitors
charged). The pre-stage is switched to maintain the 300V (or whatever) the
Zilla motor max is allowed to be. How's that for a crazy idea?
James
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mine just blips it to 1400rpm's on downshift which is good enough in the
jeep i sold. If you want it accurate, put a tach feedback to the controller
on the rear shaft.
mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seppo Lindborg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 1:43 PM
Subject: Vs: Re: Clutchless shift with rpm-matching?
> But then the logic must know which gear is the next one. I mean, let's say
I
> have third gear on. I need a different RPM in the motor depending if I am
going
> next to switch to second gear, or if I am going to switch to fourth gear.
>
> Seppo
>
>
> >----Alkuperäinen viesti----
> >Lähettäjä: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Päivämäärä: Dec 19, 2005 10:37:57 AM
> >Vastaanottaja: [email protected]
> >Aihe: Re: Clutchless shift with rpm-matching?
> >
> >I'm currently doing exactly that (in a new conversion) and new inverters
> >will have this clutchless shift RPM matching function as standard
> >feature. Reads tranny shaft rotation speed and immediately sets slip
> >compensated motor frequency to match as soon as you grip and move shift
> >stick.
> >
> >Have no idea how one would adjust frequency (I should say rotation
> >speed) of a DC motor and make it stable. Using analog throttle
> >input seem too coarse - how does one set the rotation to, say,
> >3,548 min^-1 for easy shift if the tranny is going this fast?
> >
> >One more AC setup advantage :-)
> >
> >Victor
> >
> >
> >Osmo Sarin wrote:
> >> To help to shift on the fly: when the clutch pedal (without a clutch)
or
> >> a hand switch is pressed, or gear is shifted to neutral, the controller
> >> would ignore the acc pedal signal and set motor rpm to same as gearbox
> >> rpm. Maybe the speedometer sensor signal could be used to give the
> >> gearbox rpm?
> >>
> >> Would it be very complicated construction? Easier in AC or DC system?
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance,
> >>
> >> Osmo Sarin
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
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Great story Lee and thanks for posting Roderick!
I've formatted it and added a few links and images:
http://www.evconvert.com/article/a-christmas-car
-Jerry
http://www.evconvert.com/
On Dec 19, 2005, at 4:28 PM, Roderick Wilde wrote:
Five years ago Lee Hart wrote this timeless parody of Dickens "A
Christmas Carol" for the EV List with reference to EVs of
course :-) I think it is that time of year again. I hope you all
enjoy. Happy holidays, Roderick
A Christmas Car
by Lee A. Hart
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On 12/20/05, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> >>Would it be very complicated construction? Easier in AC or DC system?
> >
> > It's not particularly complicated. All it adds is a couple of rpm sensors...
>
> It sounds Lee like you've actually haven't tries this in real life.
> Unfortunately this is not that easy.
>
> If you use analog control and throttle input to set RPM
> you will find that you cannot set desired motor speed matching
> tranny in less than about 4-5 seconds. Too much filtering
> in the feedback loop slows down response, but increasing
> gain will cause oscillations (motor runs too fast, too slow, too fast
> again) *before* reaction time drops to an acceptable level.
What you need is a "PID" circuit. This performs the feedback loop,
and can compensate for the slow response / ramp rate of the throttle
input as well as the mechanical inertia. It's a pretty trivial
computation compared to AC vector control :)
To avoid experimenting and simply pay for this feature, you're right,
you'd want to buy a system with the functionality built in. Such as
an off-the shelf industrial AC drive, or DC servo drive. Perhaps
there's nothing in the "Zilla" range that does this, but it's not
exactly top of anyone's feature list!
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On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 22:09 -0800, Joe Smalley wrote:
> Keep your motor loop current limit turned down, and nothing will get hurt.
>
> It will feel similar to an AC system with lots of RPM capability and a low
> on torque at low RPMs.
Good point -- except that I gave up the RPM range when I chose my motor.
Restricting myself to low torque *and* low RPM would certainly be a
waste of a perfectly good Warp13/Z2K combo. :o) (Not to mention the
spendy rear axle, locker, housing, 4-link suspension, adjustable shocks,
custom chrome-moly motor shaft, ...)
--chris
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 10:09 PM
> Subject: RE: Viper Torque Correction
>
> > My neigbor asked why I wasn't using my truck's existing (NV1500)
> > transmission, which just made me laugh. It has an input torque rating of
> > 170 ft-lbs.
> >
> > --chris
>
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This is absolutely true ... I think a pragmatic limitation for those
with finite budgets might be in the weight of the additional rubber, etc
required to get the power to the ground. Given that "a pound on the
wheel is worth two on the frame" (old cyclist's phrase, I think it
applies here too) if your improvements in torque are only incremental,
it may not be worth it to add enough tire to keep it from slipping. In
that case, reducing torque may be the most sensible option, as much as
that may displease my inner power-fiend.
But if you really do have two 13" motors and Z2Ks to match, and have
somehow found a miraculous battery to power them, maybe the top-fuel
dragster slicks aren't such a bad idea. From the perspective of the
original question -- "how do I go faster" (which I interpret to also
mean "quicker") and the assumption that there must be an answer ... I
think that "less weight and drag, more power" is pretty comprehensive in
a general sense, though it doesn't really reflect the specifics of how
*much* more power you'll need to overcome the mass of the extra iron,
copper, lead, steel and rubber needed to achieve it.
--chris
On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 22:27 -0800, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Chris Robison wrote:
>
> > How do you make anything go faster? Beyond reducing weight and resistance,
> > I like Otmar's line -- The answer is... "More Power".
> >
> > --chris
> ... as long as you keep traction. Beyond that point it makes no sense
> to increase power (just fantacizing about 20MW controller
> and 10 lb battery doesn't hurt and doesn't cost anything).
>
> "No matter how much isn't enough" concept may sound cool but
> has nothing to do with engineering reality. Sorry to spoil
> your dreams.
>
> Victor
>
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I was thinking that some of the failure modes
people have mentioned actually do happen
in ICE-equipped vehicles. I guess the
big difference is the ICE definitely would have a
torque converter or a clutch to work with.
My mother long ago told me about using a
steep driveway as a runaway car ramp.
I myself have had the stuck accellerator,
(but these days there are power brakes :-)
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I was curious how to weigh each wheel on my Cushman to get the 70-30% rear
front 3-wheel split. I've seen cops use some type of wheel scale. Can anyone
recommend a flat say 500lb+ scale to set the correct ratio?
Thanks, Mark
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Wonder where he got this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8023279864
Might be useful for one of you conversionists.
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On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 22:05:24 -0800, Victor Tikhonov
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Lee Hart wrote:
>
>>>Would it be very complicated construction? Easier in AC or DC system?
>>
>> It's not particularly complicated. All it adds is a couple of rpm sensors...
>
>It sounds Lee like you've actually haven't tries this in real life.
>Unfortunately this is not that easy.
>
>If you use analog control and throttle input to set RPM
> you will find that you cannot set desired motor speed matching
>tranny in less than about 4-5 seconds. Too much filtering
>in the feedback loop slows down response, but increasing
>gain will cause oscillations (motor runs too fast, too slow, too fast
>again) *before* reaction time drops to an acceptable level.
Bullsh*t, victor. That shows just how little you know about control
theory or servos. I've designed machine tools around DC motors larger
than anything we're using on EVs in which the servo look has a time
constant in the few hundred millisecond range. All done with a simple
velocity feedback sensor. I can get it even faster with velocity and
position feedback but that isn't necessary here nor there.
AC motors do have some advantages but in your blind-hog-and-acorn
stumble through the woods, you've yet to hit on anything significant.
Have you ever stopped to think just how much business you lose for
yourself with your attitude on this list?
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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I'm looking for as fast a charger as I can get for 24vdc. This Soneil
(2416) charges with pulse at 8 amps. Anyone have a better charger or idea.
My Currie just needs a board replacement or repair.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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