EV Digest 5012

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) RE: A Dumb Old Laptop & E-Meter / Link10
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  2) RE: EV acceptance idea
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) RE: A Dumb Old Laptop & E-Meter / Link10
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Failure Modes (was Re: Motor control for direct drive setup)
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) RE: A Dumb Old Laptop & E-Meter / Link10
        by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) RE: Failure Modes (was Re: Motor control for direct drive setup)
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) RE: TS Undervoltage Detection
        by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) RE: A Dumb Old Laptop & E-Meter / Link10
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  9) RE: Failure Modes
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) RE: A Dumb Old Laptop & E-Meter / Link10
        by "Rodney A" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Clutchless shift with rpm-matching?
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) RE: EV acceptance idea
        by "Jay Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Clutchless shift with rpm-matching?
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: "The Motor Will Splode"
        by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) scale
        by Jimmy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Yahoo archive
        by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) RE: TS Undervoltage Detection
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) RE: Clutchless shift with rpm-matching?
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
How about the brains in the group writing a program that allows an E-Meter
to output data to a laptop. (Like the EV1 for palm application!) The laptop
(in my mind a pc "brick" with an indash LCD running said software displaying
the appropriate data on screen real time (I'm thinking small screen on my
dash!) giving a larger display to the operator for charge level, amps used,
miles left, KW etc. Typical data a general auto driver would need to operate
their vehicle. This software could act as a data logger providing a running
tally on charge states etc.  Now if the brains could write this as open code
allowing for other brains to make additions for their own use I think it
would be great.

Me, I'd be willing to pay for the ability to see graphicly the data about my
battery pack in a simple fashion.  I am installing the Link 10 replacing the
pitiful meter in my Alfa truck. We are building a flat bed for it now and
will be using 20 6vt batteries for 120vt power. (Verdict is out about the
battery brand use and I'm open to everyone's input)I've been following both
the battery threads and the charger threads.

Pedroman



-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stefan Peters
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 1:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool


> You can't do it with an E-meter without adding hardware though.  For 
> one
thing, the E-meter doesn't have a slave/polled mode.

Yeah, I downloaded a manual and saw that...:(

> Also RS-232 doesn't spec tri-state outputs so you'd probably have to
> add
hardware to most devices to keep them from holding the bus at a constant
high/low state.

Just saying it could be done. The interface chips I typically use float when
you bring the _"Enable Out" pin high (off). This effectively takes them off
the TX line.

> If you are going to have to put in the code to handle ASCII for one 
> use
(reporting), how is it more efficiency to add MORE code to talk in binary to
something else?  It certainly doesn't save memory space.  It might save
processing power, but I can't think of anything in an EV that would push
even cheap micros to their limits. 

You bring up a good point. The efficiency is due to NOT executing a good
chunk of code (especially while handling an interrupt) while communicating
important operational data. When you are talking about a device simply
saying "This is the average of my last 100  measurements" once a sec or so,
I would definitely call this a logging/reporting application. I was talking
about two micros passing information to be used to operate the vehicle. But
as you said, there is currently no such use of micros in a typical EV
conversion. 

(bummer, maybe it's about time... I bet we could see some range
improvement/robustness from a conversion using a well thought out vehicle
management system that integrates BMS, motor monitoring (temp, RPM, EMF),
and realtime controller parameter changes) 



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> It's tempting to get a 2005 or 2006 Mustang, yank out the 
> motor and convert it to electric and have it be way, way 
> faster then the V8 version.

Quicker maybe, but faster unlikely.

> Or is a KIA, Suzuki, Hyundai, etc boring NO MATTER WHAT?  Can 
> absolutely nothing ever make those cars fun, exciting, 
> compelling, and desirable?

My personal opinion is that a "sleeper" is *always* more fun! ;^>  That
is, make the electric Hyundai quicker than the V8 Mustang and you've got
something incredibly fun on your hands.  Just imagine the reactions you
would get blowing the doors off a Mustang or other respectably-peppy car
leaving the stop lights in your Hyundai (etc.).

> If they got 90 mpg?  If they got 500 miles per charge and 
> they were cheap?

Nope.  Look around and you'll likely see lots of cars with chrome
exhausts, loud mufflers, spoilers and ground effects kits and all sorts
of other aftermarket bits and pieces that represent sizable expenditures
and have little to do with economy or performance.  Make EVs fun and
peppy and I think they'll get people's attention.

> Why do people drive Civics and Camry's though?  Not cheap, 
> not the best mileage, not fast...

The Camry perhaps is a bit on the upscale side, but Civics at least are
reasonably cheap, get reasonably good mileage, perform reasonably well,
and have extremely good reliability, and tend to hold their value better
than the average compact car.

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> How about the brains in the group writing a program that 
> allows an E-Meter to output data to a laptop.

The E-Meter/Link10 already outputs a data stream that a laptop can
receive; the program you want is one that allows a laptop to display
this information in some useful way.

> The laptop (in my mind a pc "brick" 
> with an indash LCD running said software displaying the 
> appropriate data on screen real time (I'm thinking small screen on my
> dash!) giving a larger display to the operator for charge 
> level, amps used, miles left, KW etc. Typical data a general 
> auto driver would need to operate their vehicle.

One of the first things that would be needed is concensus on what the
typical data is that a general driver requires.  My personal opinion is
that the most important piece of data is simply an accurate fuel guage.
Ah or kWh used, or instantaneous kW are "fluff" that a general driver
doesn't know how to interpret anyway and just add clutter and confusion.
Even voltage and amperage displays are probably excessive for the
general driver.

Miles left is impossible using just the info from the E-Meter/Link10;
you need an odometer input to the laptop so that it can track the
distance travelled and so estimate the distance you might be able to
travel given the charge remaining value from the E-Meter/Link10.

> This 
> software could act as a data logger providing a running tally 
> on charge states etc.  Now if the brains could write this as 
> open code allowing for other brains to make additions for 
> their own use I think it would be great.

The code to read data from the E-Meter/Link10 and display the values of
interest on the screen while logging all/some of the values to disk is
pretty trivial, but what gets more complex is making it work with some
non-standard display device, etc.

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do like I did,  just install a large 12 VDC 500 amp shut off switch that shuts 
all the 12 vdc to everything.  

You can get these from any auto parts store or from EV Parts Com . I have my 
install under the hood.  It has a large red flag switch that rotates about 90 
degrees from on to off. 

If you want to shut it off from the cab. You could install a large red mushroom 
throttle cable that is used in Semi's.  The cable pushes the 12 vdc flag switch 
to the off position.  

You could even used a electric door lock solenoid control by a large red 
mushroom switch that you can get from GE, Westinghouse or Square D Companies. 

I have four switches that are position in different locations for a emergency 
shutdown.

Roland 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Nick Viera<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 2:56 PM
  Subject: Re: Failure Modes (was Re: Motor control for direct drive setup)


  Everyone,

  Thanks for all the input on this topic!

  Lee Hart wrote:
  > 
  >> Nick Viera wrote: My Jeep still doesn't have a manual mechanical
  >> disconnect in the High Voltage system, but I do have a clutch.
  > 
  > But if the controller fails, will you remember to push the clutch?
  > Would your wife?

  The answer, of course, is I don't know. I'd like to assume my first
  reaction would be to stomp on the brakes and kill the ignition switch...
  which hopefully will allow me to stop without having to blow up my motor.

  and I'm pretty sure my wife won't be pushing the clutch in my Jeep
  anytime soon, because, well, at 19 I don't have a wife (that's still a
  ways off). ;-)  Though, your point is well taken, and I have made sure 
  to educate my other family members who drive the Jeep what steps to take 
  in such a situation.

  > Contactors have several sets of voltage and current ratings;
  > continuous duty, short-term (like for 5 minutes), and one-time
  > emergency disconnect. For example, the Albright SW200 with magnetic
  > blowouts is rated: -snip- 1000 amps for 1 minute, 1500 amps maximum
  > one-time -snip- If you use flooded batteries, their short-circuit
  > current is probably less than 1500 amps; thus this contactor could
  > safely break even a dead short. But if you use high-performance AGMs,
  > their short circuit current could easily be 2000-3000 amps; this
  > contactor could fail "on" if asked to break such a load!

  Good Info! I do have the albright SW200 contactors; it looks like
  they're a good match for breaking max. current from my flooded
  battery pack should the need ever arise.

  > But some people object to the "click-clack" every time you press and
  > release the accellerator. An alternative that's almost as good is to
  > put a switch on the brake pedal that drops the contactor each time
  > you step on the brakes. That's the second thing a driver is likely to
  > do in an emergency.

  Yes, but you'd still have a frequent, annoying click-clack sound to deal
  with either way, correct?

  > Finally, you can wire the contactors through the keyswitch, so they
  > turn off if you turn off the key. This works, but is not as good
  > because it may take a driver a long time to think of turning off the
  > key. And if he does, there is a risk of locking the steering wheel as
  > well!

  I don't think locking the steering wheel is really an issue, is it?. 
  Both of the vehicles I drive right now have at least one "off" position 
  between "Run" and "Lock", and you have to do something special besides 
  turning the key to get the ignition switch to go into the "lock" 
  position (in my Jeep there is a lever you must pull while turning, in my 
  truck there is a button you must press in while turning to get into "lock").

  -- 
  -Nick
  http://Go.DriveEV.com/<http://go.driveev.com/>
  1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
  ---------------------------

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wouldn't be too hard to do.  Maybe this can be an "open source" project for
the evforge web site.  Write it in java, use swing/awt for the graphics.
Make it so it can run on Windows, Linux or a Palm with a JVM.

So what would the UI look like?  The emeter has Ah, Volts, % charge,
current, ...  It updates once a second.

1) a line graph?

2) an "analog type" fuel gauge?

3) a couple gauges: % charge, volts, amps - maybe displayed bar or by analog
meter.

4) have different "skins" so that it can look cool in everybody's car.




Victoria, BC, Canada
 
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: December 20, 2005 2:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: A Dumb Old Laptop & E-Meter / Link10

How about the brains in the group writing a program that allows an E-Meter
to output data to a laptop. (Like the EV1 for palm application!) The laptop
(in my mind a pc "brick" with an indash LCD running said software displaying
the appropriate data on screen real time (I'm thinking small screen on my
dash!) giving a larger display to the operator for charge level, amps used,
miles left, KW etc. Typical data a general auto driver would need to operate
their vehicle. This software could act as a data logger providing a running
tally on charge states etc.  Now if the brains could write this as open code
allowing for other brains to make additions for their own use I think it
would be great.

Me, I'd be willing to pay for the ability to see graphicly the data about my
battery pack in a simple fashion.  I am installing the Link 10 replacing the
pitiful meter in my Alfa truck. We are building a flat bed for it now and
will be using 20 6vt batteries for 120vt power. (Verdict is out about the
battery brand use and I'm open to everyone's input)I've been following both
the battery threads and the charger threads.

Pedroman



-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stefan Peters
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 1:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool


> You can't do it with an E-meter without adding hardware though.  For 
> one
thing, the E-meter doesn't have a slave/polled mode.

Yeah, I downloaded a manual and saw that...:(

> Also RS-232 doesn't spec tri-state outputs so you'd probably have to 
> add
hardware to most devices to keep them from holding the bus at a constant
high/low state.

Just saying it could be done. The interface chips I typically use float when
you bring the _"Enable Out" pin high (off). This effectively takes them off
the TX line.

> If you are going to have to put in the code to handle ASCII for one 
> use
(reporting), how is it more efficiency to add MORE code to talk in binary to
something else?  It certainly doesn't save memory space.  It might save
processing power, but I can't think of anything in an EV that would push
even cheap micros to their limits. 

You bring up a good point. The efficiency is due to NOT executing a good
chunk of code (especially while handling an interrupt) while communicating
important operational data. When you are talking about a device simply
saying "This is the average of my last 100  measurements" once a sec or so,
I would definitely call this a logging/reporting application. I was talking
about two micros passing information to be used to operate the vehicle. But
as you said, there is currently no such use of micros in a typical EV
conversion. 

(bummer, maybe it's about time... I bet we could see some range
improvement/robustness from a conversion using a well thought out vehicle
management system that integrates BMS, motor monitoring (temp, RPM, EMF),
and realtime controller parameter changes) 


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> > But if the controller fails, will you remember to push the clutch? 
> > Would your wife?
> 
> The answer, of course, is I don't know. I'd like to assume my 
> first reaction would be to stomp on the brakes and kill the 
> ignition switch... which hopefully will allow me to stop 
> without having to blow up my motor.

If you've been driving stick for any length of time, your most likely
reaction will be to stomp the brakes and push in the clutch; we aren't
programmed to turn off the ignition and it requires taking one hand off
the wheel (and in a panic situation, both of your hands will likely be
clamped quite firmly (white knuckled!) to the wheel).

> Though, your point is well taken, and I have made sure 
> to educate my other family members who drive the Jeep what 
> steps to take in such a situation.

Best is to not rely on "educating" people to any unusual or
counter-intuitive practices that they have to remember are
different/specific to your vehicle (which they drive infrequently), but
instead make your vehicle behave like any other.  That is, knowing that
in a panic situation people are "programmed" to stomp the brakes (and
ideally disengage the clutch), arrange your safeties so that they will
automatically kill the electrical system when the user takes the
"natural" (to them) action.  The time it takes for them to remember (in
a panic situation) what they have to do differently for *this* vehicle
instead of or in addition to what they automatically would do may be
critical.

> > But some people object to the "click-clack" every time you 
> > press and release the accellerator. An alternative that's
> > almost as good is to put a switch on the brake pedal that
> > drops the contactor each time you step on the brakes.
> > That's the second thing a driver is likely to do 
> > in an emergency.
> 
> Yes, but you'd still have a frequent, annoying click-clack 
> sound to deal with either way, correct?

The idea is to minimise the frequency of the click-clack.  Having
switches on both the throttle and brake results in the contactor cycling
the least frequently.  The contactor pulls in only when you press the
throttle, and drops out when you press the brake (and cannot pull in
while the brake is pressed).  In normal (EV) driving, you are on and off
the throttle often, but use the brake as infrequently as possible
(coasting whenever possible).

Depending on the contactor used and how it is mounted, the click-clack
may be quite unnoticable.

> I don't think locking the steering wheel is really an issue, is it?. 
> Both of the vehicles I drive right now have at least one 
> "off" position between "Run" and "Lock", and you have to do
> something special besides turning the key to get the ignition
> switch to go into the "lock" position (in my Jeep there is a
> lever you must pull while turning, in my truck there is a button
> you must press in while turning to get into "lock").

Many vehicles do not have such an interlock mechanism to prevent
unintentional locking of the steering column.  Neither my Ford Aerostar
nor my Suzuki Forsa (=Chevy Sprint) have any mechanism to prevent
turning the key all the way to the lock position.  Locking the steering
wheel is definitely an issue with any vehicle that does not provide an
interlock mechanism.

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm still kicking this idea around and had another (probably wacky) thought.
Instead of the optocouplers, which would need to have all their positive and
negative leads wired together in parallel respectively, I was wondering if
there is any device available that would let the following work:  arrange
the 35 LEDs (one from each cell) in as tight a circle as their size will
allow, then put one photo-sensitive device at the circle's center.  If any
LED turned on, the device would turn on and sound an alarm.  I could then
look at the LEDs to see which were lit for undervoltage.  

Does such a component exist?

Thanks.

Bill Dennis 

+ __/\/\________________________________
     R1   |    |                        |
  10 ohms |    > R2                     | V+ 
 1/4 watt |    > 130k                   | pin7
          |    |         LM10           |
          |    |______________________|\|
          |    |                 pin2 |-\_________
          |    > R3   ________________|+/ output  |
          |    > 10k |         | pin3 |/| pin6    > R4
          |    >     |____|\   |        |         > 10k
     C1 +_|_   |    pin8  |-\__|        |         >
   100uF ___   |      ____|+/  Vref     |        _|_   |/ collector
   25vdc  |    |  +__|__  |/   pin1     |       _\_/_  |
          |    |    ___ 200mv           |         |    |\ emitter
          |    |  -  |__________________| V-      |
          |    |                        |         |
          |    |                        | pin4    | H11A817C
- ________|____|________________________|_________| optocoupler

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Think of it this way. A program (I'm on winXP) which displays Ahr left or Kw
left (gas gauge), Speedometer (from simple optic circuit on motor spindle or
drive shaft converting speed/end tire ratios to SPEED), amps usage gauge or
simple gauge showing economy/waste (think 70's vacuum gauge style), charge
recommendations etc.
I like the option of skins to customize my experience since some days I want
old analog style gauge and someday/s I like the led graph style.

Here's a Linux page on creating analog gauges
(http://www.linuxhowtos.org/creating%20an%20analog%20gauge%20image/)

This could be the primary display the operator uses to drive the vehicle
from. In my old Volvo we have the standard display showing speed/odometer,
clock (yea it's useful), turbo boost (performance), Idiot lights, turn
indicators, gear selection etc. Those are the items a normal operator would
use.

If using the link 10 for data collection (or other device for data
acquisition) then the PC brick is just a storage and display unit.

Pedroman


[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> How about the brains in the group writing a program that
> allows an E-Meter to output data to a laptop.

The E-Meter/Link10 already outputs a data stream that a laptop can receive;
the program you want is one that allows a laptop to display this information
in some useful way.

> The laptop (in my mind a pc "brick"
> with an indash LCD running said software displaying the 
> appropriate data on screen real time (I'm thinking small screen on my
> dash!) giving a larger display to the operator for charge 
> level, amps used, miles left, KW etc. Typical data a general 
> auto driver would need to operate their vehicle.

One of the first things that would be needed is concensus on what the
typical data is that a general driver requires.  My personal opinion is that
the most important piece of data is simply an accurate fuel guage. Ah or kWh
used, or instantaneous kW are "fluff" that a general driver doesn't know how
to interpret anyway and just add clutter and confusion. Even voltage and
amperage displays are probably excessive for the general driver.

Miles left is impossible using just the info from the E-Meter/Link10; you
need an odometer input to the laptop so that it can track the distance
travelled and so estimate the distance you might be able to travel given the
charge remaining value from the E-Meter/Link10.

> This
> software could act as a data logger providing a running tally 
> on charge states etc.  Now if the brains could write this as 
> open code allowing for other brains to make additions for 
> their own use I think it would be great.

The code to read data from the E-Meter/Link10 and display the values of
interest on the screen while logging all/some of the values to disk is
pretty trivial, but what gets more complex is making it work with some
non-standard display device, etc.

Cheers,

Roger.




--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth said 
  "I was thinking that some of the failure modes
people have mentioned actually do happen
in ICE-equipped vehicles...."

   Well sort of. I think the point is that if the throttle was to suddely fail 
full on in my car and my foot was hard on the brake it would probably kill the 
motor before the rpm's could get up into the engines torque curve, and if it 
did it would take a few seconds allowing me to turn off the key.
   If a DC controller fails full on, we have max torque in fraction of a 
second, brakes can't stop it and I have hurt someone or something before I can 
kill it.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi

THis is actually quite an interesing discussion. Does anyone have any ideas about how to do it digitally? I would love to use an LCD screen to display speed, tacho, etc instead of guages. Any ideas about the best way to do it??

Cheers

Rod

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been watching this thread develop for a few days. What A dynamic
group! one of these days I will get to meet you guys in person.
 
What about those new dogboxes from G-force trannies that allow shifting
underload. basically 2 dog-rings seperated by rods that slide thru the
shift-ring, when the dogs catch on the faster moving gear it pulls in
and pulls the other dog out.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Why does a 2005 Celica cost ~$16,000 and a 1998 Supra was ~$30,000?
Nearly the same car wasn't it?"
 
These are in no way the same car.  I owned until recently a 1997 Supra Turbo, 
$38,500 sticker, (fully loaded) it was an incredible sports car and arguably 
one of the best performance bangs for your buck during the 90's.  Mine did 
175MPH just by pulling the fuse for the speed governor and pulled over 1g on 
high speed corners..  The Celica is in no way even close to being in the same 
league.
 
Ok, I will go back to lurking now.
 
Merry Christmas EVeryone!!!
________________________

Jay Brown

________________________________

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Tue 12/20/2005 4:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EV acceptance idea



It's tempting to get a 2005 or 2006 Mustang, yank out the motor and
convert it to electric and have it be way, way faster then the V8
version.

Now repeat this procedure with any car or truck currently being produced.

I could then say "Do you want the slow gas powered version or the fast
electric version?"

Would that change anything or not?

Or is a KIA, Suzuki, Hyundai, etc boring NO MATTER WHAT?  Can
absolutely nothing ever make those cars fun, exciting, compelling, and
desirable?

If they got 90 mpg?  If they got 500 miles per charge and they were
cheap?  If they were the fastest production cars currently being
produced and were cheap?  If they were powered by hydrogen?

Price has a lot to do with it. How about performance?

Why do people drive Civics and Camry's though?  Not cheap, not the
best mileage, not fast...  I don't drive one because those cars do
nothing for me..  What do they do for all those who drive them?   Are
they nothing more then an appliance to those who drive them?

In the mid to late 1990's, there were some impressive imports at the
time.  RX7, Supra, 300Z, turbo Eclipse's, (3000GT?)..

Premium priced though and that's why they didn't sell in big numbers.

I remember a beast of a Porsche 911 around 1995 or 96.  450 hp was it?
 Also a wicked ZR1 Vette one of those years.  450hp too was it?

The price though..

A car is a car is a car.  Stamped sheet metal uni body spot welded
together.  Nothing more, nothing less.  It's not rocket science and
they've been building them like this for over 50 years now.  Any size,
any shape, any weight.

Why does a 2005 Celica cost ~$16,000 and a 1998 Supra was ~$30,000?
Nearly the same car wasn't it?

Is a car audio amplifier in any way similar to a Curtis controller?

An internal combustion engine costs X and an electric motor costs X?

Has any auto manufacturer ever built their own SLA batteries?

How and why can the golf cart and forklift industries successfully
make and sell electric versions of their products and the automotive
industry cannot?

I still feel that the automotive industry has not recently reevaluated
the practicality of EV's with the advent of recent advances in lithium
batteries.

One of the worst things they did was the advent of those Avcon
charging units with those proprietary charge paddles.  Make it be able
to plug into a standard 110 volt outlet which we have millions of
already installed!  Also make an adapter plug or cable to be able to
use the dryer outlet that so many people have already installed in
their garages!

Make these EV's be able to use standard, readily available, off the
shelf, extension cords!



<<winmail.dat>>


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I think I understand the problem you are tying to point out with doing
this with a DC system, and it has *nothing* to do with the system being
AC or DC.

The issue you have in mind is that typical DC controllers, such as the
Curtis, have a throttle ramp delay built in, and/or otherwise heavily
...

No, Roger, this isn't the issue at all. We can clarify off line
as I feel this topic begin to dominate bandwidth.

Victor

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Hey Mark
   
  I reshafted an armature for a guy on the list a while back who's using a 36 
volt 15 inch pump (now drive) motor like you describe.  He told me he was 
running his motor at 120 volts and got 60 MPH in his Rabbit.  2X voltage will 
be no problem and that motor should have plenty of mass to push your project.  
The only thing that's gonna make your motor splode is too many RPM's.  Have 
them drill and tap out the C.E. shaft so you can install an RPM sensor for 
added protection.  2X volts, hah, I got a motor looking at 5 X voltage soon... 
now that one, I hope, don't splode ;  )
  Hope this helped
  Jim Husted
  Hi-Torque Electric
   
  
Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Hi,

I just got back from Warfield where they're reworking the Hyster 36V (7" x 15") 
motor I got off ebay that I was told would be ok at 72V on the Cushman. They're 
replacing the brushes, bearings cleaning up the commutator and said they have 
to rewire the armature since it's shorted for $325 total. Anyway the guy 
rewinding it said "the motor will splode" at 72V but he couldn't rewind it for 
higher voltage operation. I've heard of folk's running to 2x motor voltage but 
I've previously only ran 36V at 48V and a 48V motor at 60V. Has anyone ran for 
a long time a 36V "pump motor" at 72V on a 1400lb vehicle without it "sploding"?

Mark

  


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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Mark,
There are many types of wheel scales available in the
racing equipment market, almost all are electronic. 
The least expensive are not electronic but utilize
bathroom type scales with a lever mechanism. 
Essentially it is a beam where one end sits on the
scale the other end on the ground and a pivoting plate
(where the tire rests)closer to the end on the ground.
 You then read the scale and use a multiplier to to
calculate the actual weight at that wheel.  You can
buy 4 and put one under each wheel, or using one, 
raise all the other wheels on blocks equal to the
height of the plate.  
Of course the more you use, the easier it is to weigh
the vehicle.
The one I bought years ago was from "Affordable Racing
Scales" ($60.00).  
You can also look in racing magazines and see what is
available.  Of course you could always build your own.
Good Luck,
Jimmy 
 
> 
> > From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: scale
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:48:04 -0500
> 
> I was curious how to weigh each wheel on my Cushman
> to get the 70-30%  rear front 3-wheel split.  I've
> seen cops use some type of wheel scale.  Can anyone
> recommend a flat say 500lb+ scale to set the correct
> ratio?
> Thanks, Mark
>

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Be my guest. Email me if you want a table dump or something.
martin at nnytech.net

On 12/20/05, Stefan T. Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Martin Klingensmith wrote:
> > There is also a digest archive here:
> > <http://wwia.org/sgroup/ev>
> > It got switched to digest mode a year or two ago (spontaneously) and I
> never
> > switched it back.
> > You know, a good way to have your own archives is to get a gmail account
> and
> > use that for your discussion lists. It has very good searching ability.
> >
> > On 12/19/05, Paul Compton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> The yahoo archive seems to be in trouble. Most of the time it's not
> >> alowing
> >> you to see messages due to having exceeded the bandwith limit.
> >>
> >> Paul Compton
> >> www.sciroccoev.co.uk
> >> www.morini-mania.co.uk
> >> www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Martin Klingensmith
> > wwia.org
> >
> >
> Hey, could I use your digest archive to help populate the YAEA (Yet
> Another EVDL Archive) on EVForge.net? The format you have them in seems
> ideal for a script I've been writing to take a past digest and cut it
> into the individual posts then stuff it in our database.
>
> --
>
> Stefan T. Peters
>
>


--
Martin Klingensmith
wwia.org

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Bill Dennis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I'm still kicking this idea around and had another (probably 
> wacky) thought. Instead of the optocouplers, which would need 
> to have all their positive and negative leads wired together 
> in parallel respectively, I was wondering if there is any 
> device available that would let the following work:  arrange 
> the 35 LEDs (one from each cell) in as tight a circle as 
> their size will allow, then put one photo-sensitive device at 
> the circle's center.  If any LED turned on, the device would 
> turn on and sound an alarm.  I could then look at the LEDs to 
> see which were lit for undervoltage.  
> 
> Does such a component exist?

Sure, it is called a photo-transistor.  You need to make sure that the
photo-transistor you use is sensitive to the frequency of the light
emitted by the LEDs you use, which may require you to use IR LEDs for
the best sensitivity.

Or, similar to Lee's suggestion some time back for his
zener/incandescent bypass regs, you could use a simple cadmium sulfide
(Cds) cell (a light sensitive resistor) such as are found in some
automatic night lights (i.e the sort that turn on when it gets dark).

Cheers,

Roger.

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Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> > The issue you have in mind is that typical DC controllers, 
> > such as the Curtis, have a throttle ramp delay built in,
> > and/or otherwise heavily
> ...
> 
> No, Roger, this isn't the issue at all. We can clarify off 
> line as I feel this topic begin to dominate bandwidth.

No, please clarify online if you believe there is some other issue as
you are certainly not making yourself clear and there appears to be some
number of people interested in the challenge of automating the
speed-matching process for clutchless shifting.

Quite frankly, I do not see *any* issue with implementing such a control
loop quite satisfactorily with a DC motor and controller, as several
others have also pointed out.  The only challenge would be attempting to
use a heavily filtered throttle input to a standard Curtis since this
would impose a limit on the response time achievable, which is why I
believed this to be the issue you were hinting at with your frequent
references to the DC controller's analog throttle input.

There is nothing magic about an AC motor and controller that endow it
with the ability to respond incredibly more rapidly than a DC motor and
controller; the laws of physics apply equally to both.  Your AC
controller may already include speed control loops, however, there is
nothing magic about them that prevents a competent person from
implementing control loops external to a DC controller that provide
quite comparable performance.

The only advantage that you have identified for your AC controller is
that you can communicate a new speed target/command to it via some
digital means that avoids the delay associated with manipulating the
throttle signal to achieve the same result.  Any DC controller that
provides serial communications and can accept a throttle/speed command
via this interface provides the same advantage, as does any DC
controller that allows the throttle response delay to be configured to a
negligible amount.  This is not an AC vs DC issue, but a controller
feature issue.

An interesting observation was made at a motor control seminar I
attended recently: field-oriented control of AC motors is intended to
allow AC motors to achieve the same controllability as sep-ex DC motors!
That is, FOC allows control of the AC motor in terms of two independent
variables, one (field current) controlling speed, and one (armature
current) controlling torque.  The best your AC system can do is to match
the controllability of a sep-ex DC motor.

Cheers,

Roger.

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