EV Digest 5056
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) MR2 Power Steering Pump - need 12V, 100A controller
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: AIR Lab EWS (was Re: battery monitor suggestions)
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: AIR Lab EWS (was Re: battery monitor suggestions)
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Electric Indy Racer on eBay
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: clutch for Mitsubishi pu with 11" net gain motor
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV Geo: Question about Battery Boxes
by "Alan Shedd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) thanks
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Ford Aspire
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Interpoles was Reverseing a siamese motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: NJ MVC on EV's
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Clutch Problems??
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Otmars new home
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: AIR Lab EWS (was Re: battery monitor suggestions)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) a DC controller's power stage schematic needed
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: A step beyond PHEV?
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV Geo: Question about Battery Boxes
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: AIR Lab EWS (was Re: battery monitor suggestions)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: a DC controller's power stage schematic needed
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) RE: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: a DC controller's power stage schematic needed
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Otmars new home
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: AIR Lab EWS (was Re: battery monitor suggestions)
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Clutch for Mitsubishi PU
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) battery monitor suggestions
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Ampabout ... EV flooded by NorCal storms
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Where I can find a reasonably priced controller for running a Toyota MR2
EHPS power steering pump? I want to use the RPM signal from a Zilla to
vary the pump speed from 100% to 0% as the car goes from 0 to 20MPH (or 0%
to 100% as the steering wheel is turned from center to lock). This would
reduce steering assist when it is not needed and save 12V auxilliary power.
The pump will not be damaged if run continuously, so I'm tempted to build
one myself. The pump turns on with the ignition switch and has proper
fusing, so failure of the controller wouldn't be catastrophic.
Does anyone know how much juice this pump uses when there isn't much
steering demand? I know it uses 75-80A maximum, what about when the wheels
are straight? I certainly don't want to tackle this project if it will be
serious overkill.
The MR2 EHPS pump has 2 connectors:
Connector 1: Power, Ground - heavy duty wires for 50+ Amp current
Connector 2: NC switch to motor brushes (2 pins), wire connected
internally to the Power line
I looked up the wiring diagram for a 1992 MR2 at my local library - very
interesting...
(View with fixed width fond)
+12V----(ABS fuse)-----------------+----------------+
| |
[EHPS computer module ] |
| | | | | | |
| | | /-----------\ | |
| | | |EHPS Driver| | |
| | | |circuit | | |
| | | \-----------/ | |
| | | | | | |
| | | | | | |
| | | | |_____/ NO \_|
| | | | | \relay/
| | | | |
| | | |(-)|(+)
/----------------------\
| | | | | | |
| | | | | +---+ |
| | | | | | | |
| | | | [MOTOR] | |
| | | | | |
| | | +-----------+ |
| | | |
|[NC Switch] |
| |
| EHPS Pump Assembly |
\----------------------/
The EHPS computer has inputs from a steering wheel encoder and the main
ICE computer. It is programmed to reduce steering assist with vehicle
speed, giving ZERO assist above 85MPH. From the diagram above, the EHPS
computer can also monitor the driver circuit and engage the NO relay to
give 100% steering assist if the driver circuit fails.
The NC switch opens when two of the EPHS motor brushes wear down.
Adrian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
A VCO or uC ADC could generate an accurate digital reading, though
only at additional cost.
Make sure to qualify that... the extra cost would only be in the "couple
of dollars a battery" range. Given the benefits, I would say that VCO or
ADC isolation would be a great way to go.
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles Twete wrote:
If making it easy for a human to see the set of battery voltages is the
issue, I like the simple,low cost LED dashboard array approach mentioned
sometime ago by someone (Lee Hart?).
*nod* I use it pretty heavily on the Elec-trak. Each bank of 6 volts
worth of NiCDs have monitors on them. Which means I can spot a low
battery out of the corner of my eye while working with the tractor.
The big problem is isolation: All 36 volts of the batteries are present
at the LEDs. Expand that up to 300 volts, and you have a lot of power in
the cabin.
If Ed's solution doesn't require high voltage in the cabin and a min of
wires going to the device (<25 say) I'll buy a 50 battery monitor *now*
for between $500 and $1,000. Make it in a little 5*10 grid or better yet
a grid matching the Prizm's battery layout.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can't make it street legal, I suppose...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4601283828
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
STEVE CLUNN wrote:
> 83 Mitsubishi
> What
> would people recommend for a clutch
Several options listed at various prices for your application:
http://www.specclutch.com/csproducts.html
http://www.specclutch.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One obvious one is the risk of them colliding with the occupants if they are
not properly restrained. Boxes must be designed to contain the batteries in
event of an accident.
-Alan
Alan C. Shedd, P.E., CEM
EV Education Program, Inc.
(a non-profit, tax-exempt organization committed to helping students of all
interests and ages pursue knowledge)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
work: 706-367-6194
cell: 770-654-0027
----- Original Message -----
From: "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Bob Bath" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 1:58 AM
Subject: Re: EV Geo: Question about Battery Boxes
What are the health hazzards of batteries in the car ??
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
. Don't forget a lid, so that
hydrogen generated goes out where you want it to, not
into the car, and keep your air in the compressor
_dry_!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
signoff ev
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--- Begin Message ---
EVCC made my adapter. The Aspire has many pluses compared to other light
small cars. More narrow than wide and a bit tall. It is a situp car. Lots
of room for batteries under the back seat and in the engine compartment.
700 to 800 pounds of small batteries will fit there. I put 18 Ford Range
batteries there which means 18 NIMH batteries will fit as well.or 36 small
Hawkers is small strings. With a little work up to 20 to 22 exides for a
144 to 240 volt machine. I got 30 Ranger batteries in orginally by cutting
out the back of the car where the spare tire was. 11 fit there. 8 under
the back seat.10 under the hood and one in the hump behind the shifter. 1200
pounds of battery weight. The Aspire is light strong and cheap to buy.
Not the greatest small car though. I like my Honda Civic better as a
functional gas car but the Honda is low and wide and not as much room for
batteries without modifications. Fortunately once you get the gas motor out
of the Aspire you really have a durable and simple car to work on. I was
able to use many of the wires from the brain of the Aspire to do simple
tasks like make the runs for the volt meter and ammeter. Of course this
trick will work on many cars. I haven't lost a bit of internal space in
either of my conversions. You can really make a slick conversion with the
Aspire. It seems to be very efficient. Very peppy at 144vdc. Lawrence
Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cook" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 10:06 AM
Subject: Ford Aspire
Hi all, can anyone help me with a Ford Aspire conversion? Are there
pre-made
components out there I could purchase?
Thanks for any leads
Don
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL - Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bet I could get a tag in TN :-)
Anyone have any idea what kind of transaxle they used? That looks
like it could be useful on other cars.
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 13:46:05 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Can't make it street legal, I suppose...
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4601283828
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Husted wrote:
> I too would love to hear Lee's description on the mechanics of both
> interpoles and ABR's.
Well, I'll try to give the layman's explanation. BTW, the link that Neon John
posted was excellent for the those who want the theory. Thanks, John!
Basically, we "time" electric motors for the same reason we "time" gasoline
engines; they run better when you get the timing right. In the case of
commutator motors, getting the brush timing right minimizes arcing and
maximizes efficiency.
In the old days, cars had manual spark advances. The driver had to manually
set it for best running. But people tended to set them wrong, so it didn't
take long before automatic spark advance was figured out and made standard.
The same thing happened for electric motors. The earliest ones had manually
adjustable brushes. But people tended to adjust them wrong, too; so automatic
systems were developed. There were a bunch of methods, but the system that
"won" was to add compensating windings. They look like field windings, and
are in series with the armature. They are carefully positioned to keep the
magnetic field from moving despite changes in speed and load.
There are basically two kinds of compensating windings. "Interpoles" (which as
the name implies) go IN BETWEEN the main poles. "Pole face" windings are
placed in slots right in the face of the main poles.
> What I know of them is they tend to run slower at lower amps with
> increased torque as compared to their 4-poled counterparts.
Interpoles don't fundamentally change a motor's torque-speed or
voltage-current characteristics. The magnetic field from the interpoles and
pole face windings is at right angles to the main field, so they don't affect
the main field's strength; thus torque and speed are unchanged. They just
make the motor behave as if you were manually adjusting the brushes to the
optimal position, rather than suffering with the consequences of a fixed
brush position at various loads.
> Now adding interpoles will definitely cause you to loose more main coil.
> Even with motors that are small fielded there would not be room to simply
> add interpoles.
That's true. Adding compensating windings means more iron and more copper in
the field structure. Interpoles are 1/10th to 1/4th the size of the main
poles. Pole face windings require slightly longer iron pole pieces to leave
room for them. When a motor is being designed from scratch with compensating
windings, they make the outside diameter a bit larger, to make room for the
extra windings. This would be hard to retrofit!
However, manufacturers tend to build a whole range of motors with standard
parts. Sometimes there is room inside the case to add them. Even if you can't
get them big enough to do the whole job, anything is better than nothing.
> Okay, so let's say we take some main coil away and add interpoles. What
> you've done is still added coils just some of them little helper coils
> between the main guys.
Yes, you could shave down the field to make room for the interpoles. You'd use
the same number of turns, but with smaller wire. The motor would run hotter,
and efficiency would drop a bit. It would need more cooling, or couldn't run
as long at a given power level. But this would be practical in a racing
motor, where efficiency and long running time don't matter as much as reduced
arcing.
> Basic rule of thumb for me has been add coils and AMP, and RPM go down and
> torque increases.
That's true if you change the number of turns in the field. But this is
independent of what you do with interpoles.
> An added benefit to interpoles are it makes for friendly regen, if I
> understand it correctly.
Correct. As you get above 150-200 volts, interpoles become pretty much
standard. You'll also find them on any really large motor (trucks, buses,
trains), or any application where performance matters more than cost
(aircraft starter-generators, for example).
> interpoled motors and whether they are subject to the 170 armature volts
> that the 4 pole motor are limited to.
Basically, the tiny gap between commutator bars can stand 20-30 volts. You
need "enough" bars between brushes to withstand the applied voltage. Suppose
a motor is built for 72 volts, and has four brushes (one every 90 degrees).
If they use a 16-bar commutator, there are 4 bars (and 3 spaces) between
brushes. Those 3 spaces have to withstand 72v / 3 = 24v each. That works.
Now suppose you try to run this motor at 144v. Now there's 48v between
commutator bars. It's likely to arc badly, no matter what you do!
Luckily, it's common for motors to have an excess of commutator bars (for
other unrelated reasons). This is what often lets us get away with
higher-than-rated voltages.
Christopher Robison wrote:
> What is the benefit of interpoles, vs. variable brush timing? How does
> this compensate for the shifting of the field's neutral plane at high
> speed, in a way that is better than simply moving the brushes? Is it
> because the effect of the interpoles is relatively instantaneous, where
> the brushes will lag when being moved?
You've got two magnetic fields at right angles to each other; one from the
field winding, and the other from the armature winding. The angle between
them is what produces your torque. For maximum torque, you want them to be 90
degrees apart.
This angle is also what determines where the brushes should be placed for
minimum arcing. The voltage in each armature coil is AC, so it passes through
zero twice each cycle. You want the + and - brushes exactly at these zero
points, so there's no arcing as the brush crosses from one bar to the next.
If the iron were perfect, it wouldn't saturate and the magnetic fields
wouldn't move. But the iron *does* saturate. The higher the current, the less
ideal it gets. The two magnetic fields "warp" away from their perfect 90
degree angle. The motor loses torque and runs slower than theory predicts.
Worse, the brushes are now in the wrong position; they arc! This effect is
called "armature reaction".
Intererpoles are extra field windings that "warp" the field back where theory
says it should be. They are in series with the armature, so the stronger the
armature field, the more they warp it back in position.
By themselves, interpoles only partially fix the problem. They too suffer from
magnetic saturation and other nonlinearities. If you need even better
compensation, they add pole face windings. This is essentially an interpole
that is distributed across the entire face of the field, instead of
concentrated in a few spots. If the designer gets the interpole and pole face
windings in exactly the right spots, he can exactly compensate the motor so
thre is no armature reaction at all.
However, this is a tedious trial-and-error process. In the old days, designers
seemed to have time to do it, and developed rules of thumb and shortcuts to
get there quickly. Today, I'm afraid all these designers are dead or retired,
and companies don't have the time to get things right. In the worst case,
they've forgotten that they ever even knew how to do it!
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:06:43 -0500 (EST), Seth Rothenberg
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>It would need to be registered as a "Specially Constructed"
>or "Reconstructed" vehicle. (The latter sounds better to
>me in terms of resale value :-)
"Reconstructed" is a term I see used to describe a car that has been
built back from parts after a wreck, usually by welding a front or
back clip onto the undamaged part. This usually results in a title
changing from "salvage" to "reconstructed". It also usually results
in a really screwed up car!
If my memory is correct, "Reconstructed" is a BAD thing to have on a
title. You might see if there is a CARFAX FAQ that addresses this.
I think that "Specially Constructed" would be a much more resalable
title.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My S15 EV pickup has slowly been getting a problem. When I am starting off from
a stop in second or when I first shift into third while accellerating the truck
kind of hops. This happens whether or not I hold the accellerator steady or
move it slowly up or down. It isn't a big hop and when my tach is working there
is a brief surge of rpms when it happens. Could this be anything other then the
clutch? I guess it could also be the flywheel adaptor is loose but I'm hoping
not. It is a 20 year old truck with probably the original clutch it in
The other part of that is once and a while when I am in stop and go it kind
of bangs. If it is the clutch I want to say it is slipping when I am starting
and when I take my off and hit the brake it grabs and with the sudden stop
there is nothing to do but turn the motor. For the second part I am going to
pull the front rack and see if the motor mount is loose.
Thanks,
Mark Hastings
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are at least 4 more "EV people" in Portland area who are on this
list and quite a few other EVers who isn't. Otmar (and Jim), if you wish
welcome to visit OEVA meeting(s) once you'll settle down. For some
reason Portland area appears to become a cluster of EV activity...
Woodburn is 15 miles from here, PIR is 15 min driving too.
Victor
Jim Husted wrote:
So you made it up here, HooHoo! Man your like 2 hours from me now so
I got 4 words for you. Your shop or mine, lol. With Wayland in
Portland we 3 form a nice
Electric triangle here in Oregon now. All I got to say is let the party
begin. 2006 just keeps getting better. Congrats on the move, let me
know once things have settled down. I'd really like for you to think
about what Otmar would like to see in a motor and we'll make it happen.
Cya Jim Husted Hi-Torque Electric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll be demonstrating a gadget doing about what you're describing,
very shortly.
Victor
Christopher Zach wrote:
Myles Twete wrote:
If making it easy for a human to see the set of battery voltages is the
issue, I like the simple,low cost LED dashboard array approach mentioned
sometime ago by someone (Lee Hart?).
*nod* I use it pretty heavily on the Elec-trak. Each bank of 6 volts
worth of NiCDs have monitors on them. Which means I can spot a low
battery out of the corner of my eye while working with the tractor.
The big problem is isolation: All 36 volts of the batteries are present
at the LEDs. Expand that up to 300 volts, and you have a lot of power in
the cabin.
If Ed's solution doesn't require high voltage in the cabin and a min of
wires going to the device (<25 say) I'll buy a 50 battery monitor *now*
for between $500 and $1,000. Make it in a little 5*10 grid or better yet
a grid matching the Prizm's battery layout.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Experts,
A friend of mine asked for a power stage implementation for
a DC motor controller to be used in a robot application.
He has uP controlling everything and needs to interface it
to something capable of running a reversible DC motor (perhaps
in H-bridge arrangement then) at about 100V max and 20A max
(not simultaneously). I think he uses either series wound
or PM DC motor, few hundred watts. Speed control is needed,
not position or torque.
I don't want to reinvent a wheel, so if someone has known
working controller schematic (just a power stage is OK),
please email me of list or point me to the source.
Any help appreciated in advance,
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave,
I think you misunderstand. The paragraph you quote is
talking about the limitations, as the author sees
them, of a PEM fuel cell hybrid vehicle system. He is
proposing an alternative; namely a battery dominated
hybrid with Solid Oxide Fuel cell range extender.
Accoring to Delphi, this approach eliminates the
limitations mentioned, specifically by running on
available fuels, and by down-sizing the expensive fuel
cell portion of the power train.
I actually think this is a good idea. Conventional
wisdom regarding fuel cell vehicles is to make the
fuel cell relatively high powered to take advantage of
the extraordinary efficiency of fuel cell systems at
part load. However, given the cost of the systems, i
think a range extender, battery dominate hybrid
approach makes much more sense.
~fortunat
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 3 Jan 2006 at 15:58, Jaroslaw "Jaros" Berezowski
> wrote:
>
> > I would like to incorporate such device into
> BEV....
> > http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2005-01-1172.pdf
> >
>
> There are serious problems, as the paper's writer
> admits at the outset :
>
> "For the H2 PEM FCEV case, the fuel cell is
> attractive in power density and
> range compared to battery EVs. But first cost and
> reliability remain even
> greater challenges than for hybrids and this is
> compounded by the
> requirement for high purity H2 as the fuel. Also H2
> is energy intensive to
> make, distribute and store and its economic
> feedstocks remain natural gas
> and coal for the foreseeable future. So there will
> be no marked reduction in
> CO2 emissions for PEM FCEVs compared to current
> hybrids and diesels until
> H2 is made from cost effective renewable sources (no
> time soon)."
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Freidberg wrote:
> 2 battery boxes... inside, they are just exposed stainless steel...
> Normally one really doesn't want conductivity inside the boxes right?
> Can I just brush on a couple coats of paint as "shielding"?
Don Cameron wrote:
> I found that "painting" the interior of the boxes to be unreliable for
> electrical insulation (simple scratches were to bare metal). In my
> case, I needed to thermally insulate the boxes anyways (Canada and
> our annual 8' of snowfall) so the 1/2" of foam provided adequate
> electrical insulation.
Mark, there are two things here to think about -- isolation (electrical) and
insulation (thermal).
Whether you need to isolate the batteries from the box ornot depends on your
charger, system voltage, and battery type:
1. Voltage: Low voltage systems have less need for isolation.
- Up to 48v packs: Don't worry about isolation. The plastic of the
the battery case itself is normally sufficient.
- Up to 96v packs: Add some kind of supplemental insulation, but it
can be something simple, not designed for its electrical properties
(truck bed liner, "Coroplast" plastic signboard, etc.)
- Over 96v packs: Now you're getting into voltages that suggest
something specifically built to be electrical insulation. Such
materials will have voltage ratings and fire resistance ratings.
2. Charger: Isolated chargers have less need for isolation.
- If your charger is isolated, then it doesn't affect the need for
isolation. Other factors determine what you use.
- If your charger is NOT isolated (K&W BC20, Russco, Rudman PFC, etc.)
then you have the full AC line voltage between batteries and ground
regardless of your pack voltage. Peak line voltages can be thousands
of volts during thunderstorms, etc. so you need VERY GOOD insulation
between batteries and any grounded metal supporting structure!
Otherwise it can arc through during a thunderstorm and either cause
a fire now; or the arc punches a hole in the insulation which causes
a shock hazard or trips your GFCI later.
3. Type of battery: Sealed batteries are cleaner, and need less isolation.
- If you use flooded batteries, they will vent and coat the surrounding
areas with an acidic mist. You need a very good, acid-resistant
insulation that will still work even if wet or soaked in acid. For
example, put the batteries in a thick-walled 5-sided polyethylene,
polypropylene, or PVC box with welded or watertight seams.
- If you use sealed batteries, they will normally stay much cleaner.
This simplifies your isolation requirements. But under fault
conditions, even sealed batteries will leak or vent acid.
The second part of this problem is thermal insulation, as Don mentioned. If
you live in a place that has winters, you may want to insulate your battery
box with something to trap the heat to keep the batteries warm. Something
like fiberglass or styrafoam are good (good insulators, acid resistant, and
not electrically conductive).
On my 72v Comutavan with flooded batteries, I used an isolated charger. I
lined the metal battery boxes with 1" of styrafoam sheets. Inside this were
two 10 mil polyethylene bags. The batteries went inside these bags, to trap
any spilled acid. The bags were 5-sided (open on top). Finally, in winter I
laid open fiberglass batts on top for thermal insulation that still allowed
ventilation.
On my LeCar EV, I sometimes use a non-isolated charger. I have 120v of sealed
batteries. They sit in steel frames, made of 1" angle iron and 1/8" steel
plate. Inside these sit 5-sided polyethylene boxes, 1/4" thick. They are
lined with 1/2" of styrafoam for thermal insulation. A separate 1/4"
polyethylene cover goes on the boxes.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well it'll also need to be an accurate VCO. I haven't messed with a VCO
but doesn't its freq depend on a capacitor? Cheap caps aren't accurate,
+/-10% kinda thing may reoccur.
I'd prefer to go with a uC, which would also mean a 5v reg and a couple
of caps. Then there's the issue of how to manage a bunch of signals
which brings us back the the "EVilBus" concept. This requires 2 optos
in a node.
There are also some ADCs which can be set up with a SPI output that
would work without a uC. That would also require 2 optos and is
somewhat tricky to manage for a bunch of inputs.
Personally I'd definitely measure 2 batteries with one uC module. One
channel measures voltage of a divider between the ground and the more
positive battery, another channel measures the voltage of a divider
between +5v and the "-" of the battery below it. That halves the cost
right there and the accuracy is basically the same.
One could also wonder why not just make a bunch of voltage dividers for
all the batteries. The difficulty is the tolerances add up, a set of
12x 12v batteries could have a +2% error on the divider for the top
battery so it reads 146.88v and a -2% error on the divider for the next
battery so it reads 129.36v. So the top battery calculates to 17.52v
instead of 12v, a 46% error. Resistors can be accurate and low drift,
but it still seems difficult to get a useful accuracy through this strategy.
Danny
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
A VCO or uC ADC could generate an accurate digital reading, though
only at additional cost.
Make sure to qualify that... the extra cost would only be in the
"couple of dollars a battery" range. Given the benefits, I would say
that VCO or ADC isolation would be a great way to go.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor,
Check out the Open Source Motor Controler (OSMC) group on yahoo. Lots of good
stuff for robots.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/osmc/
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:48:04 -0800
Subject: a DC controller's power stage schematic needed
Experts,
A friend of mine asked for a power stage implementation for
a DC motor controller to be used in a robot application.
He has uP controlling everything and needs to interface it
to something capable of running a reversible DC motor (perhaps
in H-bridge arrangement then) at about 100V max and 20A max
(not simultaneously). I think he uses either series wound
or PM DC motor, few hundred watts. Speed control is needed,
not position or torque.
I don't want to reinvent a wheel, so if someone has known
working controller schematic (just a power stage is OK),
please email me of list or point me to the source.
Any help appreciated in advance,
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This looks very much like the formula lightening racers built at the
Universities. Although a quick search for a racer marked "Apex" did not
turn up anything.
Maybe check out the "formula lightening" projects to see what transaxle they
use.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: January 4, 2006 2:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
Bet I could get a tag in TN :-)
Anyone have any idea what kind of transaxle they used? That looks like it
could be useful on other cars.
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 13:46:05 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Can't make it street legal, I suppose...
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=460128382
>8
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little
minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Experts,
A friend of mine asked for a power stage implementation for
a DC motor controller to be used in a robot application.
He has uP controlling everything and needs to interface it
to something capable of running a reversible DC motor (perhaps
in H-bridge arrangement then) at about 100V max and 20A max
(not simultaneously). I think he uses either series wound
or PM DC motor, few hundred watts. Speed control is needed,
not position or torque.
I don't want to reinvent a wheel, so if someone has known
working controller schematic (just a power stage is OK),
please email me of list or point me to the source.
Check out the "Free Resources" section of the "Web Links" at
EVForge.net... or just search for it using the "Search" page. There is a
link called "Build your own +40A Electronic Speed Controller" that has
full details for a H-Bridge setup for robotic use.
Any help appreciated in advance,
Victor
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting applications for employment. No, I
have not yet written the job description! It's
doing everything except engineering. Will train
the right person.
No sales tax! :)
Another smart person exits California.
The RUSSCO charger operation will be relocating to North Grants Pass,
Oregon in February. Same area at the Damon Controller Company. Looks
like all the little niche EV component manufactures will be in the
Pacific North West.
Russ Kaufmann
RUSSCO Engineering
The Other PFC Charger With GFCI
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
I'd prefer to go with a uC, which would also mean a 5v reg and a
couple of caps. Then there's the issue of how to manage a bunch of
signals which brings us back the the "EVilBus" concept. This requires
2 optos in a node.
Try looking at the PIC12F675. I have seen it mentioned on many
research-related forums for remote sensor use:
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/41190c.pdf
Has an on board four channel 10bit ADC with optional external voltage
reference input. Also has an analog comparator with programmable voltage
reference and multiplexing. Comes in a Automotive (-40C to +125C) grade
package as well. At 8 pins and $1.40 each, should be small/scalable enough.
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That was my thought, we as EV converters only ever have to buy chevy
adapter hubs. use a button flywheel like I did(no teeth ) and then
whatever disk spline we need. Unless we use the stock clutch, My thought
was why reproduce all the different manufactures crank ends,
standardize! The engineer at tilton got an earfull from me but the cost
of the custom unit seemed high (I had access to a machine shop, that is
gone for now) It would help to hear same request from others.
I thought about and designed a hub/flywheel as one piece, but what the
heck, the button flywheels are already standard, once I have the chevy
crank adapter, it opens up the market of aftermarket stuff i can choose
from. Or replace without waiting for it to be made.
Then there is my warp 9 bell that sets the warp back. It has a 12"
register diameter. I had a CNC shop quote them less than $50. Then a
flat plate of of specific thickness for the specific tranny with just
the 12" hole and the mount pattern of the tranny. For RWD, this is OK,
but the whole assembly is not very length conservative. :-(
I have only tested this on one vehicle so far and the tripple plate 5.5"
was a mistake to avoid, it was too tall.
I paid $50 to have this plate water cut
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/1987_300zx_02.jpg
then kissed the 12" hole and walked off this pattern for the 300zx tranny
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/Z31_non-turbo-pattern.jpg
this was the cross-section view. As you can see I had to let the tranny
shaft protrude into the clearhole on the warp, not enough room for
bushings, but I figured an EV needs less use of throw-out bearing.
The "clutch that survived" picture showed the bell that I want to be
come standard in my "kits" if I really get into selling them.
The small clutch and motor bell also allowed me to remove the motor from
the front and leave the tranny in the car.
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00037.jpg
The extra aluminum ears were to attach to the frame for future drag torque.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With right components it is easy to bring series connected
batteries' voltages to be monitored down to a common ground
without opto isolation at all. Use high common node op amps
is straight forward way to do it, acceptable for most
hobby users. No optos, no VCOs, can't get simpletr than that.
For example - download DS for INA117 op amp and look on
page 13 how it is done. Careful though, design is non-isolated.
There are better parts for the job though, like AD629 or LT1990.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
A VCO or uC ADC could generate an accurate digital reading, though
only at additional cost.
Make sure to qualify that... the extra cost would only be in the "couple
of dollars a battery" range. Given the benefits, I would say that VCO or
ADC isolation would be a great way to go.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Last weekend was not a Happy but a crappy New Year for me. The
strong and heavy storm that hit Northern California combined with
very high tides on Sunday 'and' Monday flooded many communities and
other areas. The TV and Radio mainly talked about the Northern
areas, but I had flooding right here on the SF Peninsula.
Friday and Saturday, I was not pensive of the coming storm. The
weather reports said it was going to be a whopper, but I did not
think to see if it was going to happen during a high tide. I have
had standing water in my area before, but it did not interfere with
my life at all. I figured this would just be a bunch of rain.
I had planned to take full advantage of the three-day Holiday. I
was going to get some things done before my classes started up, but
also recharge myself by sleeping in on Saturday.
The rain was pouring and pounding on the roof. The sound did not
bother me at all. Late in the morning I got a knock on my door. It
was likely the manager wanting to cover his liability by warning me
that there could be water in the complex.
I had experienced this in the previous years, and it just was not
that bad to warrant me taking action. So I rolled over and went
back to sleep.
I awoke after a good sleep, but noticed reflections coming through
the window. It was water surrounding me everywhere. And it was
still rising. From 11:30am until 4:30am the next day I was trapped
in my home. At least the water did not rise high enough to enter EV
or my home.
After most of the water had been pumped away, I tried to move my EV
to the outside street seeking higher ground. As I reached the exit
to the street, I saw all my neighbors had heeded the managers
warnings and moved their vehicles to the outside street.
But just before I reached the street, my EV stopped. I noticed my
12V dome light was not lit. The Auburn C600 controller will not
work if there is no 12V. I noticed that the DC2DC was not drawing
its usual amperage from the main pack. It looks like the DC2DC is
down and 12 V Aux battery is drained.
With the rain and strong winds still coming down, and I not able to
push the 5000 lb Blazer up the ramp to the outside street, I chose
to park my EV off to the side until later when it was daylight and
I could make some noise.
A few hours later, I came back to EV with a 12 V charger and used
the 100 ft extension cord from the back seat. I plugged in and
charged the 12 V battery enough so that I could park it back at my
place. I did not want to move it to the street if the EV was having
problems. I may not be able to work on it out there or will be told
I have to move it, then cant. I was banking that the flooding was
over, and I could work on my EV at my spot.
But by 11:30am the waters began to rise again, but this time faster
and higher. Mucky water was forcefully coming out of the storm
drain (a strong reverse flow). With the 12 V problems I had, and
the water already too deep to move my EV, I decided to give up and
go to a Motel. I had had two days of being trapped at home and I
was getting out.
I made a Motel reservation, called a taxi, and packed a bag with
clean clothes for work the next day. I wore my shorts and stepped
out of my door. The dirty water was at the level of my front door,
already higher than my EVs door and still rising as I stepped into
the deep water. I had put my wallet and keys into my jacket pockets
to try to keep them higher up, safe and dry.
The water was already at my pants pockets as I waded my way out of
the park. With the bag held higher than the water, also holding an
umbrella being tossed by the strong rainy winds, I slowly and
carefully stepped my way out of there.
As I past other cars, I saw the water was half way up their door
panels. Some parts of the road were deeper than others, and I got
into deeper and deeper water, until it was above my waist. I am a
tall person, so the water was very deep, about 4 feet. I got quite
difficult to keep everything out of the water and walk at the same
time (this was not a fun time).
Careful as I was to not step on something (the water was so filthy
you can not see where you are stepping), stumbled and everything
went under. I was soaked head to toe, and so was the bag. But all I
could think off was so was my EV going to be after I get back.
I finally got out near the outside road and waited for the taxi to
arrive. I stood at the managers office to keep out of the cold
wind and rain.
Soaked and freezing, the minutes past, but no taxi. I ask the
management to call the taxi to see why there were not here. The
police had closed the roads into the area from both directions.
So what do I do now? Go back and sit in a flooded home soak to the
bone in filth? No, there were vehicles trying to leave. So then so
was I.
I was able to hook up with a small sedan, with a Mother and
daughter kind enough to let this huge guy sit in the back seat
(dripping all over the floor). I told them I just needed to get out
of the blocked off area so I could call a taxi.
The mother drove that little sedan like a boat through the deep
pools of water in the road. Water was coming up over the hood when
she went through the deepest parts of the standing water. Slowly be
surely, we did not stall and we made it out.
I thanked them when they dropped me off, dripped brown water on the
Motel registration form, and when I got to my room, I stepped right
into the shower with my clothes on to wash off all the crud.
I was able to make it to work the next day, but I was quite tried
from the lack of sleep. I would not know the damage to my EV or
home until I returned home that evening. Tuesday was a very long
day, with power outages at work, over temps in the computer rooms,
etc. But kept thinking what was I going to find at the end of the
day(?).
I took a taxi home, and found the waters had receded, but a thick
layer of muck was everywhere. Thankfully it is not as bad as I
imagined during night in the Motel. It was bad, but it recoverable.
The 12 V aux battery had enough charge I chanced going to an auto
store to get replacement 30 amp fuses. Nope, the Sevcon DC-DC
converter put in my Solar Electric blew that new fuse too, so its
fried.
My next DC2DC will be sealed and have an output of more than 25
amps (unlike the 90s model Sevcon that got flooded). Any one got
any DC-DC model recommendations with a 132 VDC input and a 30+ amp
14.4 V output?
So there I was still at the auto store. It was night, its raining
(again) and I had a 12 V aux battery that was discharging fast.
Even though I minimized how much 12 V power I used, I ran out of 12
V power a third of the way from home. The controller cut out and I
coasted to a stop on the side of the road.
With no outlets to be found, I decided to jump my 12 V aux
battery with three 6 V batteries. I figured a fully charged 12 V
battery reaches 15 V, and three 6V batteries would be 18 Volts. The
three-volt differential would be just enough to keep some current
flowing to continue recharging the 12 V aux battery.
BATTERIES NEVER DIE....THEY ARE MURDERED!
I charged it this way for a minute. I had no idea how much power I
had transferred. So I put the cables away, fired up the EV and
headed home. I got about 2 minutes of run time, until the
controller cut out again.
As I coasted into a parking lot, on coming traffic flashed me with
their high beams as if to tell me my lights were out (duh). This
time I used this ad hoc 12 V charging method for 5 minutes.
When I pulled in, I had still had plenty of 12 V power. I figure
for every minute of charge this way, I get twice the minutes of run
time. So now I have a way to jump myself back in business!
Today at lunch I measured the 12 V aux battery tray. It is not a
standard group 24 size, and the height of a group 24 would not fit
with the wiring that is in place. The tray was designed to use two
U1 12 V batteries in parallel.
Depending on what U1 battery, the amp hour capacity could range
from 30 to 40 amp hours. Putting two U1's in parallel would be
about the same AH capacity as a group 24 deep cycle battery. Not a
bad design, just one that makes for wide battery instead of a tall
battery.
I usually can buy a U1 lawn and garden tractor battery at Walmart
or Kmart for about $20. But today, I did not have the run time to
hunt for a bargain. At my local Kmart there were three models of
these lawn and garden tractor U1 batteries. The only rating they
gave was the CCA (Cold Cranking Amps). One was 185, the other 250
and the last was 384.
I know trying to relate a CCA rating to which battery has more AHs
does not work. So I measured the three batterys surface voltage
and choose the one that was the most charged (with the highest
surface voltage). My thinking being if the battery is holding a
higher charge it is either a newer battery or a healthier battery.
But they did not have the cables or hardware needed to connect the
existing and new battery in parallel. I am not real keen on mixing
an old battery with a new one, but I will see if this works out or
not.
It donned on me that I could also connect a separate 12 V aux
battery just to the controller. So if my main 12 V aux died, I
could still drive the EV. I may not have lights, but I could move.
I could easily charge multiple 12 V batteries using the Pro Series
12 V chargers I have which have separate banks of 12 V chargers.
Hmm
something to think about.
So tonight after work I am to go to the auto store to get the
cables and hardware to later connect the two U1 batteries in
parallel. Problem is, it will be dark after work so using the
lights will drain my 12 V aux battery even faster.
I will likely have to jump my old 12 V aux to get myself to my
doctors appointment later tonight. I need to get Tetanus and
Hepatitis A shots because of the putrid water I was soaked in.
I mentioned to a manager at work what I was going through to get my
EV back on line, and she said, Is it worth it?!? Her meaning
being that the EV was the problem.
I explained to her, It Was Not the EV
It Was The Flooding!. The
floodwater would have entered the engine and screwed it up as well.
No, I was not going to throw away my EV, and go drive around a huge
V10 diesel to suck the planets resources dry. I am smart enough to
resolve this.
I hope you all had a much better New Year's weekend than I did.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
