EV Digest 5061
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Motor speed? Motor sizing
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Geo Metro EV on a budget
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Modular controller idea (Was: Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor
controller)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: New motors and brush seating
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Otmars new home
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Geo Metro EV on a budget
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: MR2 Power Steering Pump - need 12V, 100A controller
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Geo Metro EV on a budget
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Pretty cool
by "Brad Sagowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Otmars new home
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Matt's 240SX Electric in the top 15!
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Matt's 240SX Electric in the top 15!
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Mike
Now are those test specs from the data tag or did you take them yourself?
Are they load RPM's or freespin? If they are freespin then expect them to go
down quiet a bit, unless you are over-volting the OEM rating. On the lift
motors get me any motor numbers you can find and I'll see if I recognize it, a
pic might serve as well. I'd say unless your planning on building a 120 volt
snowblower your comm won't splode. It might melt to a blob if its to small
though, LMAO. Just kidding, no seriously.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
"M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks every one for the replies.
I think the original 2 stroke motor was about 2-3 horse power so 1/4 of
that would be about 3/4 hp. Looks like motors 1 & 2 are out of the
question. Motors 3 & 4 have possibilities. #4 is a 36/48 volt motor and
the rpm is 2000 @ 48 volts. Batteries for this motor would weigh approx.
130lbs, TOO heavy for me!!!
Motor # 3 maybe my best option it is a series wound traction motor and
probably weighs 30 - 40 lb..
I just located another motor at work today it is a series wound motor
also 36/ 48 volts with 3000 rpm @ 36 volts and it probably weighs about
30lbs. There is no amps or horse power rating though but comparing it to
other motors I would guess 1.5 hp.
Next question if I connect the fields in series with the armature (
like it is supposed to be ) what will limit the rpm ?
Could it spin to fast and self destruct? "Splode" might be the proper term.
Thanks
Mike G.
M.G. wrote:
>> I am converting my snow blower to run on batteries. I have located three
>> motors;
>> Motor #1 is an old cooling fan motor 300 to 500 watts 12 volts. This is
>> a permanent magnet motor.
>> Motor #2 is a steering motor from a stand up lift truck 24 amps 18 volts.
>> Perm mag also.
>> Motor #3 is a drive motor from a walkie pallet jack. This is a series
>> motor. I know this would be powerful enough but the weight is getting
>> out of control as this motor probably weighs about 35lbs.
>> Motor #4 is a power steering motor from a sit down electric lift truck.
>> permanent magnet... 36/48 volts and the rpm on 48 volts is 1800.
>
>
What was the horsepower and rpm of the original motor? You should use its
specs as a guideline for picking a replacement.
If the original was a gasoline engine, an electric motor can be about 1/4th
its horsepower and still do the same job. This is because the gasoline engine
is rated by its peak horsepower, and the electric motor by the average power
it can deliver for an hour or more.
For the motors you mentioned, you can estimate their horsepower as 1/1000th of
the wattage (watts = volts x amps) it draws. For example:
#1 fan motor: 12v x (estimated) 15a = 180 watts = 0.18 horsepower.
#2 steering motor: 18v x 24a = 432 watts = 0.432 horsepower.
#3 drive motor: (I'd guess) 24v x 50a = 1200 watts = 1.2 horsepower.
#4 power steering motor: 48v x (estimated) 20a = 960 watts = 0.96 horsepower.
For PM motors, they only way to change the speed is to change the voltage.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays,
whatever.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This situation looks hopeless to me. Joe Sixpack doesn't like to pay
$3.00 for gasoline and wants to covert his Metro to an EV for less than
$1000. His advisor lives 500 miles away. Lee Hart is asking the rest
of us what to do.
Parts and know how for a good Metro conversion are available but at
many times $1000. A beginner not familiar with EVs or the conversion
process can't successfully build an EV with second hand and second rate
parts.
An irony is that if one can't afford $3.00 gasoline, one probably can't
afford
to do a conversion either. In most of the US, gasoline is now much less
than
$3.00 per gallon. I bought a tankful in Silverdale, Washington yesterday
for
$1.959 per gallon.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 12:37 PM
Subject: Geo Metro EV on a budget
My family has always tolerated my EVs as a harmless eccentricity. "Fine
for a
nut like him, but I don't want no weirdo car."
Well, the times they are a-changin'. Over Christmas, one of my relatives
said
"I got a dead 1994 Geo Metro in the garage. I'm sick and tired of $3
gasoline
and wars and ICE stuff that breaks that I can't fix. How do I convert it
into
an EV?"
I gave him an outline of what was required, figuring that would scare him
off.
I gave him some websites to look at, prices for the parts, and the amount
of
work it would take to see if he was serious.
He called back today. He looked at the websites, but is a high-school
dropout
and considers anything that smacks of reading as torture. He's your
classic
Joe Sixpack; he doesn't mind spending time on it but wants to keep the
budget
under $1000.
He lives 20 miles from work, and can probably charge there. He asked the
guys
that maintain the forklifts, and they thought it was a great idea;
something
they'd always wanted to try. They gave him a 48v traction motor. He knows
my
first EV was a low-budget special that used a dozen golf cart batteries,
24v
aircraft generator, contactor controller, and homemade charger; so he's
out
to do something like that.
Unfortunately, he lives 500 miles away in southwestern Michigan, so I'll
have
to assist by remote control. Can we come up with the parts and design so
he
(or anyone else for that matter) can throw together a quick-and-simple EV
conversion that a beginner can build and get working?
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stefan,
Thanks for taking the time to answer, and for working on this project
in the first place!
On Jan 5, 2006, at 11:16 AM, Stefan T. Peters wrote:
Doug Weathers wrote:
2) How flexible will it be? Could it for example deal with batteries
of different chemistries and capacities in the same pack? (Seems
like it's just a matter of sofware.)
That is the fun one. Potentially a lot of math there... If they are
different sizes (nominal voltages). The software doesn't really care
about storage depth (capacity), the fundamental nature of it is
adaptiveness. Use a battery until it's off-state voltage hits a lower
threshold. I'm sure the "pick which one" algorithm will need much
refinement as it's gradually put into use. As for the different
chemistries - it's *possible*, if you change the reported voltage to a
rating scale instead. Say 0 = lowest voltage for this battery allowed
and 255 = highest voltage for this battery allowed. Seems like a
simple enough change to push that decision out to the Power Module.
If the pack contains blocks of different voltages, then the controller
will probably need to know that voltage as well as the SoC of that
block. If the user calls for another six volts of juice, then the
controller should switch in a 6V block instead of a 2V or 12V block.
There are other metrics you could pay attention to as well, such as the
age of the battery or the preferred current draw.
There might be merit in "policy-based discharge", as in policy-based
routing. For example, you want to discharge the lithiums or floodies
first, unless the current draw is such that they might be damaged, in
which case you want to use the AGMs. Letting the AGMs get drawn down
first means you can't climb hills or pass trucks if you need to, so you
discharge them last.
3) How easy would it be to add modular charging to the package?
I have been looking at the charging issue. You actually need to add
some hardware to each Power Module to allow for string charging
(charging as a series), but the big benefit is supervised charging of
each battery individually. Now charging each battery with it's own
charger can be a piece of cake using properly isolated charges.
Why charge them in a string? That's what causes all the headaches.
(Am I being ignorant here?)
4) Where can you stick the DC/DC converter?
Hehehe... that is one stumbling block I've been unable to completely
address at this time. When you're foot is off the gas, the pack is
fundamentally unable to generate any current. One way to deal with it
is to use a wide range DC/DC converter (12V - Max Voltage) connected
to the output of the Subnet Switch and depend on the aux battery
during stoplights.
Naah, John Wayland doesn't want the lights to dim and the wipers to
slow down when waiting at the stoplight.
Or incorporate an idle function in the Speed Controller where the pack
still generates at least 12V each string with the Subnet Switch
disconnecting the Motor. Then use one DC/DC for each string and
parallel the outputs. That has the benefit of 48V -> 12V DC/DC
converters being cake to find.
Getting there.
Or just use one DC/DC for each string without any idle function and
depend on the aux battery as above. Or just use an Aux Battery by
itself.
John no like :)
The most ambitious idea is: install a small 12V isolated switching
regulator/converter on each battery and parallel them together on a
"Aux Power Bus".
There you go, although I don't see why you need the regulators. The
Aux Power Bus is what I was going to suggest, not only for 12V power
for the car while moving, but also for charging the batteries while
stopped. (I would call it the Low Voltage Bus, and the one that the
traction motor is on is called the High Voltage Bus.)
A Power Module would be able to switch its battery into the HV bus, or
bypass the HV bus around the battery. Also, it can switch the battery
onto the LV bus. The LV bus, unlike the HV bus, is a parallel bus, so
that even if you have all the batteries switched in it will still be
only 12V.
Then the LV bus goes to an isolated 12V-to-14V DC/DC converter, and the
output goes to the aux battery and the car's electrical system.
Batteries that are more or less than 12V will need special handling, of
course - perhaps a DC/DC on the battery to bring the output up/down to
12V, or perhaps the controller just never switches non-12V batteries
onto the LV bus.
Charging is a bit more tricky. There's a beefy line-voltage-to-14.5V
power supply with no brains to speak of, which outputs to the LV bus.
The LV bus will have the same voltage to each battery, so the Power
Module will need to PWM the voltage down to whatever the battery needs
at each part of the charge profile. If the power supply can't provide
the amps required/desired for all the batteries at the same time, just
switch some of them off of the LV bus and charge them later. If a
battery needs more than 14.5V, then I'm not sure what to do.
Any more suggestions?
What, weren't you listening? :)
OK then, how about regen? I'm not at all clear on how it would work
with the Power Modules, so I don't have a suggestion there. However,
you could add a Power Module or two whose job was to switch a resistor
into the HV bus instead of a battery. This would provide a way to
dissipate braking energy if the batteries are full, or if regen is not
practical.
5) (related question) How about Lee Hart Battery Balancer
functionality?
Hmmm... are you sure that you understand the BatPack concept?
Ouch, duh, of course. No need to keep the batteries balanced, since
they're being drawn down individually and are out of the circuit if
they're too low for safety.
There is no real need for a separate discharge balancer functionality.
It's inherent in how the system operates, the batteries should remain
balanced with normal use.
As Danny said, not necessarily. If the system only looks at voltage to
determine SoC, it will happily discharge old batteries with only half
their capacity as quickly as it discharges brand new batteries.
The good news is, who cares? No worries about damaging a battery.
Just switch it out when it's done and stop using it, and continue
driving on the rest of the pack.
Anyway, I hope your project goes well, and I really hope that it
eventually results in hardware I can buy.
This is for a "public domain" setup... so you could build it. I think
it would be awhile before anyone starts to offer kits (I can only
dream, eh?)
Thanks for all the encouragement. There is a thread in the EVForge.net
forums that I'm posting all the schematics and test data to. Feel free
to contribute or criticize ;)
--
Stefan T. Peters
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:08 PM 5/01/06 -0800, Jim Husted wrote:
Hey All
Thought I'd throw a little post about properly seated brushes. The
Utah State ADC8 snowmobile motor was found to have had almost no (or
none) pre-seating of the brushes. This caused some comm scarring and
unnecessary brush heating scortching the brush leads a bit. Most of the
brushes where only hitting about half of their surfaces, and thats been
after they've been using it. I thought that I would inform all new motor
buyers (regardless of maker) to pull a brush or two and make sure you
have attained a good seat on them. If they are not making full contact
then obtain brush seater. This will save you from damaging your new
baby. I was truely surprised in the lack of this important aspect in
basic motor needs. Anyways thought there might be some use for this info
for those buying motors.
Hi Jim
Could you write a maybe half-page note on how to properly seat a set of
brushes? (Bet it'll sell you some comm stones). Stick it up on your web
pages (or someone elses'). How to/ what not to etc..
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jan 5, 2006, at 11:35 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
That's how I feel about this EV list. Without it, we'd be a bunch of
isolated
nuts tinkering in our garages.
And with it, we're a bunch of isolated nuts typing on keyboards? :)
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tell him you know a guy that would like to run biodiesel that wants a late
model Mercedes diesel for a $1000.00. Tell him what Father Time always says:
You can sh*t in one hand and wish in the other and see which one fills up
first. OK, I'll lighten up here :-) Tell him if he's really interested in
EVs find out the true cost by going to the EV Classifieds. I always
recommend people start with a used one rather than building. It usually is
less than the cost of the parts. There is a direct link from
www.evalbum.com. Then suggest an alternative like starting small with an
electric bike or scooter for local travel. Full size EVs are not practical
right now for people on limited incomes.
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Geo Metro EV on a budget
This situation looks hopeless to me. Joe Sixpack doesn't like to pay
$3.00 for gasoline and wants to covert his Metro to an EV for less than
$1000. His advisor lives 500 miles away. Lee Hart is asking the rest
of us what to do.
Parts and know how for a good Metro conversion are available but at
many times $1000. A beginner not familiar with EVs or the conversion
process can't successfully build an EV with second hand and second rate
parts.
An irony is that if one can't afford $3.00 gasoline, one probably can't
afford
to do a conversion either. In most of the US, gasoline is now much less
than
$3.00 per gallon. I bought a tankful in Silverdale, Washington yesterday
for
$1.959 per gallon.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 12:37 PM
Subject: Geo Metro EV on a budget
My family has always tolerated my EVs as a harmless eccentricity. "Fine
for a
nut like him, but I don't want no weirdo car."
Well, the times they are a-changin'. Over Christmas, one of my relatives
said
"I got a dead 1994 Geo Metro in the garage. I'm sick and tired of $3
gasoline
and wars and ICE stuff that breaks that I can't fix. How do I convert it
into
an EV?"
I gave him an outline of what was required, figuring that would scare him
off.
I gave him some websites to look at, prices for the parts, and the amount
of
work it would take to see if he was serious.
He called back today. He looked at the websites, but is a high-school
dropout
and considers anything that smacks of reading as torture. He's your
classic
Joe Sixpack; he doesn't mind spending time on it but wants to keep the
budget
under $1000.
He lives 20 miles from work, and can probably charge there. He asked the
guys
that maintain the forklifts, and they thought it was a great idea;
something
they'd always wanted to try. They gave him a 48v traction motor. He knows
my
first EV was a low-budget special that used a dozen golf cart batteries,
24v
aircraft generator, contactor controller, and homemade charger; so he's
out
to do something like that.
Unfortunately, he lives 500 miles away in southwestern Michigan, so I'll
have
to assist by remote control. Can we come up with the parts and design so
he
(or anyone else for that matter) can throw together a quick-and-simple EV
conversion that a beginner can build and get working?
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For all the talk about drag racing on this list, and the occasional
tidbit on autocross thanks to the folks at ProEV, it seems that Formula
Lightning is something that doesn't get brought up here nearly often
enough.
In fact, I'd kinda thought FL had died out -- does it still exist? All
the pages I can find (that actually load) seem a few years old...
--chris
On Thu, 2006-01-05 at 22:34 -0500, Roy Nutter wrote:
> Hi Don:
> Several reasons. Among them, the frames of FL are a tubular steel;
> this one appears to be angle iron :-). Batteries appear to be open and
> not contained. No one has run ADC motors for FL racing for years (they
> cook spectactularly after about 15 minutes of high current :-). Body is
> not spec form but appears to be too narrow and the from nose is not
> spec. Probably many others if I look again.
>
> I was also looking for our on-lines rules site but it seems to be
> messed up. I can e-mail you a copy of the rules as the currently stand
> if you really are serious about looking at them :-)
>
> ...Roy
>
>
>
>
> Roy, pray tell... why?
>
> Inquiring minds like to learn!
>
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> Behalf Of Roy Nutter
> Sent: January 5, 2006 12:45 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
>
> This is DEFINITELY NOT a Formula lightning. This would not come close
> to
> passing the rules for FL.
>
> ...Roy Nutter
>
> From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Date: 1/4/06 6:51PM
> Subject: RE: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
>
> This looks very much like the formula lightening racers built at the
> Universities. Although a quick search for a racer marked "Apex" did
> not
> turn up anything.
>
> Maybe check out the "formula lightening" projects to see what transaxle
> they
> use.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> Behalf Of Neon John
> Sent: January 4, 2006 2:10 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
>
> Bet I could get a tag in TN :-)
>
> Anyone have any idea what kind of transaxle they used? That looks like
> it
> could be useful on other cars.
>
> On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 13:46:05 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >Can't make it street legal, I suppose...
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=460128382
>
> >8
> >
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of
> little
> minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Roy S. Nutter, Jr. , Professor
> West Virginia University
> 933 Engineering Sciences Bld
> POB 6109, Lane Dept of CSEE
> Morgantown, WV 26506-6109
> Tel: (304)-293-0405 x2510
> Fax: (304)- 293-8602
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer wrote:
I just use a switch and relay on my van's power steering pump. I
prefer it switched off all the time, my girlfriend can switch it on
for parking
LOL... Thought about that also. I remember some posts a while back that
mentioned steering irregularities if the pump was turned on/off while
moving. It'd be nice to avoid those. Eventually this will be my wife's car
so I can't have any extra switches for regular driving :)
Adrian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
Someone may have stated this (bit behind on emails) but the problem
with the BattPack system is that unlike a conventional high voltage
pack and PWM controller it hammers the batteries with full motor
current even at low speeds.
I guess the question becomes how do batteries react to long-term pulsing
high current use (at quarter throttle, a particular battery would be on
for 1-10 thousands of a second, then off for ~4-40 thousands of a
second... isn't that what a basic PWM-based controller does to the
battery, anyways?) This is why I'm using a bit more complicated
algorithm then the original BatPack system. It won't "hold" a single
battery on at cruising speeds if possible.
I think a better way to do a modular system would be for each sub pack
to have its own controller, it would have to be able to boost the low
voltage from the sub pack to whatever the motor needed and run in
parallel with the others. A master controller would look at how much
power the driver wanted and divide that by the number of sub packs
weighted by each ones health. Then tell each of the sub pack
controllers to pony up X amount of power.
That would definitely be better. One boosting controller (programmable
DC/DC converter, basically) per battery run in parallel. Which you could
do with a slight programming change and converting (instead of simple
switching) Power Modules wired in parallel. I hope it grows to that. But
I still want the simple, inexpensive, DIY version as well. Eight 12V ->
12-48V 100A DC/DC programmable converters seem a bit expensive. A
logic-controllable circuit (say with a 5V PWM input) of such a converter
would be all that is required. Anyone?
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I see this a little different:
Now the mindset of this "Joe Sixpack" has changed from
"I don't want to pay $3 a Gallon" - a complaint many have
but which does not bring about much in itself, to:
"I want to build an EV on a budget"
this really allows for a new convert to become enthusiastic
with the proper coaching to avoid be discouraged by lack of
results.
Not many can invest a lot of time for free in guiding a newby
through all the steps, nor is it possible to remotely make a
person aware what to be mindful of (if he is not an electric
engineer, how whould he know that one battery does not kill
but a dozen are lethal?)
So I have a suggestion - can he find time to help someone in
the conversion of the other person's car, so he can learn the
ropes while helping another EV'er out and become prepared to
do his own conversion (and possibly some help in return for
his invested time and effort)?
I can easily draw up a schematic of a contactor controlled car
and just as well can at least a dozen others on this list, but
that still does not tell anything of the story of a conversion.
What held me captive for several nights were the complete
documented step-by-step conversion websites of several EV'ers
with heaps of photos to aid the text and make you "get the
picture".
Victor's was one, Otmar's another but I also recall a
Norwegian and another US conversion.
Recently I discovered "Eve" http://www.evconvert.com/ which is
a very thorough job - certainly more work than anyone wants
to put in a conversion, but there is an engineering rule that
the second project of a kind always delivers an over-engineered
solution, because it wants to correct all the mistakes from the
first project, even if that was wildly successful.
I am not surprised to see that Eve is the second conversion.
Anyway - pictorials like these can bring even a non-reader to
a certain level of knowledge and interest and what-to-avoid
so he is even more dangerous ;-)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Tom Shay
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Geo Metro EV on a budget
This situation looks hopeless to me. Joe Sixpack doesn't like to pay
$3.00 for gasoline and wants to covert his Metro to an EV for less than
$1000. His advisor lives 500 miles away. Lee Hart is asking the rest
of us what to do.
Parts and know how for a good Metro conversion are available but at
many times $1000. A beginner not familiar with EVs or the conversion
process can't successfully build an EV with second hand and second rate
parts.
An irony is that if one can't afford $3.00 gasoline, one probably can't
afford
to do a conversion either. In most of the US, gasoline is now much less
than
$3.00 per gallon. I bought a tankful in Silverdale, Washington yesterday
for
$1.959 per gallon.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 12:37 PM
Subject: Geo Metro EV on a budget
> My family has always tolerated my EVs as a harmless eccentricity. "Fine
> for a
> nut like him, but I don't want no weirdo car."
>
> Well, the times they are a-changin'. Over Christmas, one of my relatives
> said
> "I got a dead 1994 Geo Metro in the garage. I'm sick and tired of $3
> gasoline
> and wars and ICE stuff that breaks that I can't fix. How do I convert it
> into
> an EV?"
>
> I gave him an outline of what was required, figuring that would scare him
> off.
> I gave him some websites to look at, prices for the parts, and the amount
> of
> work it would take to see if he was serious.
>
> He called back today. He looked at the websites, but is a high-school
> dropout
> and considers anything that smacks of reading as torture. He's your
> classic
> Joe Sixpack; he doesn't mind spending time on it but wants to keep the
> budget
> under $1000.
>
> He lives 20 miles from work, and can probably charge there. He asked the
> guys
> that maintain the forklifts, and they thought it was a great idea;
> something
> they'd always wanted to try. They gave him a 48v traction motor. He knows
> my
> first EV was a low-budget special that used a dozen golf cart batteries,
> 24v
> aircraft generator, contactor controller, and homemade charger; so he's
> out
> to do something like that.
>
> Unfortunately, he lives 500 miles away in southwestern Michigan, so I'll
> have
> to assist by remote control. Can we come up with the parts and design so
> he
> (or anyone else for that matter) can throw together a quick-and-simple EV
> conversion that a beginner can build and get working?
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/01/05/formula-ev-x-01/
neat to see they are using zilla and ADC products.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
Someone may have stated this (bit behind on emails) but the problem
with the BattPack system is that unlike a conventional high voltage
pack and PWM controller it hammers the batteries with full motor
current even at low speeds.
Given that each battery will be on for ~1-10 thousandths of a sec, then
off for ~4-40 thousands (for quarter throttle), would adding a 1-5 Farad
stiffening capacitor in parallel to the battery leads help any? (with
battery life)
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, a typical controller will draw a rather constant current
from the batteries into capacitors, the motor is being
switched between this battery voltage and "short circuit"
through the reverse diodes.
That is why the average battery current can be much lower
than the motor current: only a small percentage of time is
the battery delivering the motor current, the rest is just
motor current looping around.
This can be seen as transforming a high voltage / low current
into low voltage / high current like a transformer does.
This is a typical behavior of a "Buck" converter.
The opposite is the "Boost" converter, in its simplest form
it "shorts" an inductor over the input voltage and then
disconnects the inductor from the zero volt so the current
causes the potential to shoot up above the input voltage,
usually through a diode into a capacitor to get a stable
output voltage. This is a higher output voltage than input
and consequently the current is lower.
In the modular battery proposal you describe it would be the
boost converter to jump the voltage up to the level you want
and your motor can take (for example 170V) even though your
batteries are much lower in voltage (96V for example).
This can ALSO compensate for "sag" in the batteries, still
delivering a constant 170V even when the batteries are
sagging from 105V to 85V for example.
This principlle of voltage doubling is used by the Prius,
where the older model had a 274V battery, the newer model
has a lower voltage battery but uses a voltage doubling
inverter to drive the AC motor with 500V to increase the
motor power from 37 to 50kW.
The opposite can also be used:
if your motor cannot withstand more than 170V but you
want to have a high voltage to allow battery sag on the
input of the controller, but your motor should never
see this battery voltage to avoid flashover, then all you
need is to program the controller (Zilla or other) with
the maximum >Average< motor voltage and connect an
inductor in series with a capacitor to the output of the
controller, with the motor across the capacitor.
Even if you would have 500V battery, you can still run
a motor that will flashover across its commutator above
(for example) 170V by restricting the controller's
duty cycle to Vmotor/Vbatt = 170/500 = 34%.
When the batteries sag due to high current and go down
to 300V then the controller can maintain 170V output by
increasing the duty cycle to 170/300 = 57%
The motor current will still be almost twice the
battery current in such a setup during sag, without sag
the battery sees only 1/3 of the motor current at 170V.
Back to your idea of a boost-converter:
I agree that it is better to make _one_ converter that
can handle the max power (current) that you want to
grow to, but allows multiple strings of parallel
batteries to be connected to deliver this max power.
At first you can start with less strings and lower
current limits.
I imagine multiple strings of 48V batteries can make
for a safer conversion, avoiding the lethal DC power
from high voltage lines (still the high current can
do nasty things) especially if the controller is
"on top of" the motor, so you are not running long
high-voltage wires from controller to motor. But
usually that is not a problem and actually can be
preferred to many long battery wires, as the motor
is not run while working on it, so there should be
no high voltage during the conversion, only during
the driving. High voltage and lower current allow
thinner wires, so the controller can actually be
placed further away from the motor.
Too bad that losses in the controller go up faster
than the current decreases due to higher voltages,
so it may actually be interesting to create the
high motor voltage by multiple low-voltage DC/DC
controllers with their outputs in _series_.
The high current string connections are still a
hassle, which is hard to avoid.
BTW - another way of making a BattPack type system
is a smart controller that is connected to one or
more string(s) of batteries and can select which
and how many batteries to connect to the motor.
This is like a "contactor" controller with several
intermediate steps and works like a balancer to
avoid always draining one battery, but instead
switching from battery to battery.
No DC/DC needed, just switches.
(electronic as mechanical will cause too much
jerking)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Stefan T. Peters
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 5:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
>
> Someone may have stated this (bit behind on emails) but the problem
> with the BattPack system is that unlike a conventional high voltage
> pack and PWM controller it hammers the batteries with full motor
> current even at low speeds.
I guess the question becomes how do batteries react to long-term pulsing
high current use (at quarter throttle, a particular battery would be on
for 1-10 thousands of a second, then off for ~4-40 thousands of a
second... isn't that what a basic PWM-based controller does to the
battery, anyways?) This is why I'm using a bit more complicated
algorithm then the original BatPack system. It won't "hold" a single
battery on at cruising speeds if possible.
> I think a better way to do a modular system would be for each sub pack
> to have its own controller, it would have to be able to boost the low
> voltage from the sub pack to whatever the motor needed and run in
> parallel with the others. A master controller would look at how much
> power the driver wanted and divide that by the number of sub packs
> weighted by each ones health. Then tell each of the sub pack
> controllers to pony up X amount of power.
>
>
That would definitely be better. One boosting controller (programmable
DC/DC converter, basically) per battery run in parallel. Which you could
do with a slight programming change and converting (instead of simple
switching) Power Modules wired in parallel. I hope it grows to that. But
I still want the simple, inexpensive, DIY version as well. Eight 12V ->
12-48V 100A DC/DC programmable converters seem a bit expensive. A
logic-controllable circuit (say with a 5V PWM input) of such a converter
would be all that is required. Anyone?
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doug,
Your sense of humor is appreciated. I hope that some day our un-isolated
paths will cross. I'd enjoy meeting you. And in regard to the subject
"Otmar's new home"; I feel fortunate because he moved into a place two
blocks from where I live here in Corvallis.
For those of you who have never met Otmar, not only does he produce potent
green boxes, but he's a heck of a nice guy too!
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Doug Weathers
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 8:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Otmars new home
On Jan 5, 2006, at 11:35 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
> That's how I feel about this EV list. Without it, we'd be a bunch of
> isolated
> nuts tinkering in our garages.
And with it, we're a bunch of isolated nuts typing on keyboards? :)
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release Date: 1/4/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Zilla runs at 15 kHz, so that is below 70 millionth of a sec. (us)
Sure a controller has HV input capacitors.
Formula to determine Delta V on a capacitor: I x t = V x C
(Current times Time equals Voltage times Capacitance)
An example:
I = 100A
t = 50 us (0.00005 s = 5 x 10^-5)
Now if we want to keep the voltage-swing on the capacitor under 10V
how large a capacitor do we need? (Ignore series resistance for now)
Enter the known values in the formula we get:
100 x 5 x 10^-5 = 10 x C
5 x 10^-3 = 10 x C
5 x 10^-4 = C
C = 500 uF.
If you go to the low frequencies you suggest, the capacitors become
extremely bulky to supply so much current for that "long" and also
you will have very annoying hums and whistles in audible frequencies.
That is the reason Otmar chose the TV line flyback frequency: it is
so often around us that most people have a hearing "notch" at this
frequency, in addition to it being almost above the audible band
of frequencies. No whines and whistles.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Stefan T. Peters
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 5:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
>
> Someone may have stated this (bit behind on emails) but the problem
> with the BattPack system is that unlike a conventional high voltage
> pack and PWM controller it hammers the batteries with full motor
> current even at low speeds.
Given that each battery will be on for ~1-10 thousandths of a sec, then
off for ~4-40 thousands (for quarter throttle), would adding a 1-5 Farad
stiffening capacitor in parallel to the battery leads help any? (with
battery life)
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there a problem ?
The white zombie "Datsun 1200 electric" became "Datsun 1200"
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 4:49 AM
Subject: Re: Matt's 240SX Electric in the top 15!
> Actually John, when someone gets in the top spot they will still need to
> keep the votes coming to stay there. The reason the electrics are moving
up
> so fast is the rate at which the votes are coming in. The gas cars are not
> getting many new votes. Heck, I just asked my friends in Croatia to start
> voting as well.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 7:34 PM
> Subject: Matt's 240SX Electric in the top 15!
>
>
> > Hell to All,
> >
> > Matt's car is now in the top 15, currently at #13 to be exact. How cool
is
> > that...two EVs featured in the opening page Top 15 for all to see each
> > time they check out the most popular vehicles for the month! Maniac
Mazda
> > got a late start, but it's already just 50 votes shy of overtaking the
#15
> > car. By mid-tomorrow, we'll have three, count 'em, three EVs in the top
> > 15!! This has just 'got to' be raising more than a few eyebrows!
> >
> > Thanks everyone for continuing to vote. Even after we get one of the EVs
> > in the #1 spot, we can't let up and let an EV get nudged out of its
chance
> > to be the featured Time Slip car of the month by thinking we've got it
> > made, relaxing the voting, and having the 2nd place guy come up with
last
> > minute votes to slip back past us, so please, continue to vote until
we've
> > actually secured the spot.
> >
> > See Ya.......John Wayland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release Date:
1/4/2006
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release Date: 1/4/2006
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe,
I noticed that in the "Top 50" the car is still listed as
"Datsun 1200"
Only on the front page is the "Electric" addition.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Philippe Borges
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 12:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Matt's 240SX Electric in the top 15!
Is there a problem ?
The white zombie "Datsun 1200 electric" became "Datsun 1200"
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 4:49 AM
Subject: Re: Matt's 240SX Electric in the top 15!
> Actually John, when someone gets in the top spot they will still need to
> keep the votes coming to stay there. The reason the electrics are moving
up
> so fast is the rate at which the votes are coming in. The gas cars are not
> getting many new votes. Heck, I just asked my friends in Croatia to start
> voting as well.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 7:34 PM
> Subject: Matt's 240SX Electric in the top 15!
>
>
> > Hell to All,
> >
> > Matt's car is now in the top 15, currently at #13 to be exact. How cool
is
> > that...two EVs featured in the opening page Top 15 for all to see each
> > time they check out the most popular vehicles for the month! Maniac
Mazda
> > got a late start, but it's already just 50 votes shy of overtaking the
#15
> > car. By mid-tomorrow, we'll have three, count 'em, three EVs in the top
> > 15!! This has just 'got to' be raising more than a few eyebrows!
> >
> > Thanks everyone for continuing to vote. Even after we get one of the EVs
> > in the #1 spot, we can't let up and let an EV get nudged out of its
chance
> > to be the featured Time Slip car of the month by thinking we've got it
> > made, relaxing the voting, and having the 2nd place guy come up with
last
> > minute votes to slip back past us, so please, continue to vote until
we've
> > actually secured the spot.
> >
> > See Ya.......John Wayland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release Date:
1/4/2006
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release Date: 1/4/2006
>
--- End Message ---
