EV Digest 5092
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Batts. & timers & my next set-- (oh, my!)
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: '1972 Datsun 1200 Electric'
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Motor Question
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Thundersky astonishing wishes [long]
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) overabuse of few Li-ion 18650 2,2Ah cells
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Motor Question
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: DC motor overhaul (long)
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Motor Question
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Motor Question
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: power steering
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: power steering
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Bad floodies?
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Motor Question, comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: '1972 Datsun 1200 Electric'
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Bad floodies?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Motor Question
by Don Buckshot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Power steering
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: After Marin ampabout, Zivan down, needs exorcism
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm, seems one of my EV friends had a timer plugged into his
14-50 240V outlet for use on his EV years ago. Basically keep
his EV from charging during peak electrical hours. So this would
be a time-of-day type timer, not a elapsed time timer.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:07 PM
Subject: Batts. & timers & my next set-- (oh, my!)
> At this point,
> a) My batteries will not force a current cutback as
> they hit the set-point voltage. (see recent threads)
> b) My charger will not take them to the voltage
> required for set-point without me cranking the current
> to 28A or better. Nawaz says stick to C10, or 178 Ah,
> and others on the list indicate higher currents are
> not detrimental to the batteries.
> c) I prefer charging at 220V, because it charges in a
> short time (hi amps, of course), and I lack a timer
> for 220. Obviously, the PFC has a timer which is
> integrated with setpoint voltage, although it can be
> automatic from the time of plug-in, as well.
> The point is, does anyone actually _make_ a 220V timer
> out there?
>
> --- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > It the charger plug doesn't have a wind-up type
> > timer, you should install
> > one soon. Set it to the maximum time that you think
> > the batteries should
> > continue charging. This will protect them from
> > extreme damage if they are
> > unattended and they do go into thermal runaway.
> >
> > When the batteries are full their terminal voltage
> > goes down as their
> > temperature goes up. At the end of the charge cycle
> > is when your batteries
> > are typically at the highest temperature.
> >
> > The typical charger has a "trigger voltage" that it
> > must reach to cut back
> > the current and switch over from constant current
> > (CC) mode to constant
> > voltage (CV) mode. If the battery is WAY too hot, it
> > will never reach the
> > trigger voltage. More typically, the battery will
> > reach the trigger voltage
> > and while the current is tapering off, because it
> > will heat up just enough
> > to drop below the trigger voltage.
> >
> > When the battery drops below the trigger
> > voltage, the charger
> > might return to the CC mode (depends upon the logic
> > in the charger.) When
> > this happens, the battery has entered "thermal
> > runaway". It will never
> > reach the trigger voltage because it is getting
> > hotter and hotter as the
> > charger pumps a massive overcharge into it. A
> > battery must go open circuit
> > for the cycle to stop (if you don't have a wind-up
> > timer, or that feature
> > is not built into your charger.)
> >
> > Bill Dube'
> >
> >
> >
> > At 01:30 PM 1/7/2006, you wrote:
> > >Certainly my batteries are heating up as the
> > voltage
> > >drops. The limit LED is not coming on. But the
> > >batteries are performing fine, at least for now.
> > I'm
> > >at a huge loss as to what is going on. SGs look
> > good;
> > >maybe it is a battery in the back of the car that
> > has
> > >a cruddy cell I'm just missing. I didn't think one
> > >cell could screw things up this significantly...
> > >
> > >What (chemically) occurs in thermal runaway? Is
> > that
> > >why I'm seeing darker (greyish) electrolyte at
> > higher
> > >currents after a long charge?
> > >
> > >--- Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Bob,
> > > >
> > > > I recommend trying it again, and this time watch
> > the
> > > > current meter
> > > > when the pack voltage starts to drop. If the
> > > > current isn't also
> > > > dropping, the charger is not the cause of the
> > > > voltage drop.
> > > >
> > > > As a double-check, temporarily lower the
> > charger's
> > > > voltage setting
> > > > and rerun the test. You should see the LIMIT
> > LED
> > > > come on when the
> > > > pack reaches the voltage setting and the blue
> > LED
> > > > should start
> > > > blinking, and the current should start dropping.
> > > > This tells you
> > > > the charger is working.
> > > >
> > > > Then put the voltage setting back to what you
> > expect
> > > > and start the
> > > > charger. Manually monitor each battery voltage
> > to
> > > > see if you can
> > > > find one or more battery voltages that are
> > dropping.
> > > > This might
> > > > help find the bad battery.
> > > >
> > > > Ralph
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bob Bath writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > I should've said "voltage threshold, thus
> > starting
> > > > > current cutback."
> > > > > I do believe the potential for a bad battery.
> > But
> > > > > Interstate load tested the worst, and
> > indicated
> > > > that
> > > > > it was fine! I'm confused!
> > > > > Yes, I know about the voltage trimpot
> > triggering
> > > > the
> > > > > timer, etc. Most of what I read indicates
> > that
> > > > > thermal runaway won't occur with floodies. Is
> > > > this
> > > > > not correct?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Bob Bath writes:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I ramped up the current throttle to max,
> > set
> > > > the
> > > > > > > voltage limit to 183V, and hit 178. Got
> > > > WAAAAY
> > > > > > > excited, but before the blue LED came on
> > > > > > indicating
> > > > > > > current limit, voltage started dropping
> > again.
> > > >
> > > > > > This
> > > > > > > is what it's been doing all along. Why is
> > it
> > > > > > ramping
> > > > > > > back voltage before it hits current limit?
> > > > Water
> > > > > > > levels are fine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no indication for current limit.
> > You
> > > > need
> > > > > > to watch
> > > > > > your pack current meter to see how much
> > current
> > > > is
> > > > > > flowing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The blue LED indicates that the timer is
> > > > running.
> > > > > > It gets
> > > > > > triggered by voltage limit, regbus activity
> > or
> > > > hot
> > > > > > reg,
> > > > > > depending on switch settings.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The LIMIT LED should come on if the pack
> > hits
> > > > the
> > > > > > voltage
> > > > > > limit set by the trim pot. The blue LED
> > should
> > > > > > start blinking
> > > > > > at the same time if you have switch 1 set to
> > ON.
> > > >
> > > > > > This is
> > > > > > when the charger will start cutting back on
> > the
> > > > > > current.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If your pack voltage peaks and then starts
> > > > dropping
> > > > > > before
> > > > > > hitting the charger's voltage setting, the
> > > > charger
> > > > > > will continue
> > > > > > pumping in the selected current into the
> > pack.
> > > > This
> > > > > > may cause
> > > > > > thermal run away.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe you need to set a lower limit, perhaps
> > to
> > > > > > account for a
> > > > > > bad battery?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ralph
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John be careful...it seems to me you are becoming addicteed to Dragtimes.com
:^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 12:40 AM
Subject: '1972 Datsun 1200 Electric'
> Hello to All,
>
> I just couldn't resist sharing the moment...right now, 3:35 pm west
> coast time, at the DragTimes.com website, the vote count number for
> White Zombie is at 1972, so the entire line reads '1972 Datsun 1200
> Electric'...exactly correct as both my electric Datsun 1200s are in
> fact, 1972 models!
>
> See Ya....John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:11 AM 2/02/06 -0800, Stefan wrote:
Sorry to repost, but I never got a response from this, maybe it was lost
in the sea of words:
Can I simply repack the bearings? Is there any special procedure or
grease I should use?
Hi Stefan
For the cost of bearings, I'd just put a new set in. Price-wise, get as
expensive a bearing as you feel you can justify. Avoid the cheapest, but
don't forget that the normal retail margin on bearings is something like
70% or more, so a major distributor of a good Japanese or German brand may
be able to offer you the same price as for a lesser brand, just because of
his margin. I'm sure others will chime in with brands to avoid, but I think
better to use a middle-of-the-road brand than just repacking the grease in
an old bearing.
As for repacking, that's a temporary measure, think of how much time and
inconvenience to pull the motor, if you can put up with that again in 6
months because you didn't replace the bearings this time, then it's pop the
shrouds, put in some bearing grease, and if they are plastic shrouds then
put them back.
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all,
just to let you now about this informative message as posted by Mikechen in
TS Yahoo group:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A LETTER TO OUR CUSTOMERS ALL OVER THE WORLD
---BY THUNDER-SKY IN THE EVE OF THE NEW YEAR
Dear customers from all over the world:
Really appreciate for your sincere help at all times to Thunder-sky,
and because of your interests and demands, our company has made a
great progress from producing no more than 14 cells (700 ah)/day in a
small lab in 1998 to 88000 ah/day with various types now. It has come
into mass production and even the demands exceeds our supply, which
is really a great prospect. In the beginning of the New year, We do
believe that we can have a more beautiful future under your support!
Looking back into the past few years from our setting up in 1998,in
our 7 years' long and hard researching and developing road, there are
infinite emotions and words we want to share. Which made us feel the
most proud is that our Thunder-sky lithium batteries have been sold
from China to the remainder Asia, and then to America, Africa and the
Europe, and based on this trade relations, we therefore got the
chance to know more than 3000 customers from all of the world, and
have produced and sold out 310000 batteries (61630000 ah) in total
during these years, although a few of them also brought some
inconvenience and troubles to our customers in application field. We
now attach these 11 complaints during the past 7 years as below, with
honest and excelsior attitude, expecting your understanding. At the
same time, we also provide you our different kinds of lithium battery
with their safety performance and other index for your consideration.
No.1:
Time: JUL,1999
Customer: Guangdong Shantou Zhaoyang Motorbike Ltd.
Battery type: TS-LCP6163A(50AH)
Qty: 14pcs(in series)
Use:Install in a motorbike as a drive power
Complain for:Fire
Cause:directly charge the battery pack by the positive/negative line
of an electric welding machine,caused short-circuit which leading to
fire.
No.2:
Time:NOV,2000
Customer:Hubei Xiangfan Dongfeng Citroen Car Ltd.
Battery type: TS-LP8581A(100AH)
Qty:240pcs(in series/parallel)
Use:Install in a EV car which is imported from France as a drive power
Complain for:Fire when charging
Cause:The electric car has covered from 290 km(first charge) to 360 km
(the 51st charge),which in total is 5800 km.But at one time during
charging(with no body and no BMS to monitor it),some monomer cell has
been over-discharged and then continue to be overcharged with other
cells in series, which caused short-circuit and fire.
No.3:
Time:MAR,2001
Customer:A EV Car Company of Shenzhen Baoan
Battery type:TS-LR10A(10AH)
Qty:10pcs(in series)
Use:Install in a electric bike as a drive power
Complain for:Fire when charging
Cause:The charger's manostat system was out of order,then lead the
battery overcharged and fire.
No.4:
Time:JUL,2002
Customer:A EV Car Trade Company from Shanghai
Battery type:TS-LR10A(10AH)
Qty:5000pcs(10pcs in a series)
Use:Install in a electric bike as a drive power to sell
Complain for:Fire when charging(happened in one of their customer)
Cause:The charger was out of order,and there are no BMS,the over-
discharged cell continue to be overcharged with other cells in
series,then lead the overcharged battery short-circuit and fire.
No.5:
Time:MAY,2002
Customer:Guangzhou Yangcheng Motorbike Ltd.
Battery type:TS-LR10A(10AH)
Qty:1800pcs(10pcs in a series)
Use:Make it as a batteryt pack of "36V/10AH",and matched with the
charger which made by Yangcheng,then installed in the electric bike
as a drive power to sell.
Complain for:Fire when charging(happened in one of their customer)
Cause:Charge the battery at home,and the charger was out of
order,with no BMS,the over-discharged cell continue to be overcharged
with other cells in series,then lead the overcharged battery short-
circuit and fire.
No.6:
Time:JUN,2003
Customer:Kunshan Wanxiang EV Car company
Battery type:TS-8581A(100AH)
Qty:180pcs
Use:put cells in series/parallel by themselves,and charge them by 7
in series,no BMS,and then directly installed them into an EV Car.
Complain for:Fire during the first charging
Cause:No monitor system, continue to charge the over-discharged
battery with other cells in series,instead to exchange it in time,and
then the battery has been over-charged,which lead them short-circuit
and fire.
No.7:
Time:OCT,2004
Customer:A korea EV Car developing company
Battery type:TS-8581A(100AH)
Qty:28pcs(14pcs in a series)
Use:used for a nautical instrument
Complain for:Fire when charging
Cause:When used them for two months,charge some already over-
discharged battery with no BMS to monitor,and then overcharged the
battery,which lead to short-circuit and fire.
No.8:
Time:NOV,2004
Customer:American IC Company
Battery type:TS-9393A(200AH)
Qty:1700pcs(7pcs in series)
Use:used for a nautical power instrument, to get the physical data of
above 1000 meters under the sea
Complain for:Fume during charging
Cause:No protect device to the battery pack,some cells which were not
full charged has been over-discharged,then caused fire during the
continued charging. But for the battery pack were placed in a
nitrogen environment, but not in atmosphere, there are no visible
fire.
No.9:
Time:APR,2005
Customer:Acoustic institute of the Science academe
Battery type:TS-LP9393A(200AH) and TS-LP6163A(50AH)
Qty:TS-LP9393A--14pcs;TS-LP6163A--10pcs
Use:used for a nautical instrument
Complain for:the 50AH battery caused fire when charging, which also
spread to the 200AH battery.
Cause:The cells were put in series, with no protecting device, after
the 50AH cell over-discharging to 0V,continue to charge it with other
cells in series,then overcharged them and caused short-circuit,which
also spread to the 200AH battery beside.
No.10:
Time:AUG,2005
Customer:A research academe of Hungary
Battery type:TS-9393A(200AH)
Qty: 4 pcs
Use :For battery test
Complain for:One cell caused fire when charging
Cause:Made the cell in series battery pack,then do the charge-
discharge cycle test,when the 320st tests has been done,the
technologist were very excited and over-discharged one of the battery
to 0V,then continue to charge the battery pack with big current,
which made the OV battery short-circuit and fire.
No.11:
Time:NOV,2005
Customer: Mechanic Institute of Xian Jiaotong University
Battery type:TS-9393A(200AH)
Qty:14pcs(7pcs in a series)
Use:used for a two-seats solar EV Car
Complain for:Fire when charging
Cause:There are no protective device for the cell, and they made the
charger which do not match to the cells and cannot charge the cell
consistently by themselves, during repeated run of the car,one of the
battery has been over-discharged, then continue to be charged at
night with no body monitoring, which lead the 0V cell overcharged and
then short-circuit and fire.
>From our analysis to the above 11 accidents, we can see obviously
that they all caused by inside short-circuit by over-discharging the
battery and then continue to overcharge it. All these only caused
fire but no explosion, and all happened during the charging time but
not discharging, they are all "LP" batteries, that is the "LCP"
battery we named now. This kind of battery have no fire preventing
material in it, so when it is put in series, if one cell has been
over-discharged, and then continue to charge it with other cells in
series, it may make the battery pack cause fire.
We now introduce the safety performance of the "LCP","LMP","LFP"
three kinds of battery as below, and hope you can get a more clear
understanding about Thunder-sky batteries in the coming new year.
"LCP":(No fire preventing)
Representative model:TS-LCP50AHA,TS-LCP90AHA,TS-LCP100AHA,TS-
LCP200AHA,TS-LCP500AHA,TS-LCP1000AHA
Safety index:
1)for overcharge and over-discharge;(Fire but no explosion)
2)for short-circuit;(Fire but no explosion)
3)for puncture;(Fire but no explosion)
4)for extrusion;(Fire but no explosion)
5)for fire;(No explosion)
6)for drench;(Fire but no explosion)
"LMP":(No fire preventing)
Representative model:TS-LMP30AHA,TS-LMP50AHA,TS-LMP150AHA,TS-
LMP300AHA,TS-LMP500AHA,TS-LMP10000AHB
Safety index:
1)for overcharge and over-discharge;(Fire but no explosion except the
battery which capacity is below 100AH)
2)for short-circuit;(Fire but no explosion except the battery which
capacity is below 100AH)
3)for puncture;(Fire but no explosion except the battery which
capacity is below 100AH)
4)for extrusion;(Fire but no explosion except the battery which
capacity is below 100AH)
5)for fire;(No explosion)
6)for drench;(Fire but no explosion)
"LFP":(Fire preventing)
Representative model:TS-LFP180AHA,TS-LFP300AHA,TS-LFP600AHA,TS-
LFP1000AHA,TS-LFP9000AHB,TS-LFP10000AHB,
Safety index:
1)for overcharge and over-discharge;(No fire, no explosion)
2)for short-circuit;(No fire, no explosion)
3)for puncture;(No fire, no explosion)
4)for extrusion;(No fire, no explosion)
5)for fire;(No explosion)
6)for drench;(No fire, no explosion)
Thunder-sky battery has been named by people as "a kind of battery
which will never cause explosion"! And this has already been proved
in the last 7 years' application! But it's a truth that the "LCP"
and "LMP" battery can cause fire according to the "Six safety
standard". Whereas, it's still possible for us to solve this trouble,
that is installing a fitted and reliable "BMS"(battery manage system)
to the cell. We Thunder-sky will produce this "BMS" in large qty in
the new year, and help to install it when buying our battery. "LFP"
battery is a kind of fire preventing battery,you needn't to worry
that it will cause fire. Of course,no matter what kind of battery you
choose, we will give you our reliable service with our enthusiastic
attitude!
In the beginning of 2006,based on our existing technology and index
of the three kinds of battery: "LCP" "LMP" and "LFP", we Thunder-sky
will continue to research and develop more applicable lithium
batteries for our customers!
Happy new year and Hope everything goes your way!
THUNDER-SKY BATTERY LIMITED
IN THE EVE OF 2006
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Even if we can't now exactly what happenned, i feel confident than a company
which can say: "we had few fire on our cells and had analyzed with customers
the cause" can go now imho from my personal DEFCON 3 level to DEFCON 4 :^)
if you read this, keep the good job at TS !
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just to let all now than my house did not go fire after overabuse of few
Li-ion 18650 2,2Ah cells.
My crude tests:
-piercing = bubles of electrolyte arround the holes (yes i did few :^) no
fire/fumes/overpressure but the cell became hotter than i can touch. Trying
to flame this electrolyte result in a tiny blue auto-going out flame.
-crushing = nothing !
-Overdischarging with starter Battery tester (100A load on 12V so give 25A
here which is >10C for this cell) = nothing: the cell voltage fall, fall,
fall and nothing.
-Overcharging the overdischarged cell with no control (40VAC 10A + one diode
crude power supply) = after few minutes i was starting to sleep when 5A
diode and power supply died :^)
-flamming the case = after about 5 minutes: overpressure with safety valve
opening, grey fumes, no fire/no explosion.
-flamming directly the safety valve (+ side) = after arround 1minute 30 :
overpressure with safety valve opening, which blow my propane torch (little
model one), grey fumes.
Have to try with Bigger torch to see if there is REAL flames in this
situation but video show it seems not the case just sparks.
This is one cell at once test so not relevant of anything else.
I have "amateur" videos and pictures but no time today to mount and made
them available on a web page, will give the link when it's done.
My actual conclusion is:
in normal condition and medium abuse (charge/discharge) ) i consider this
notebook standard cell to be safe !
in fire: valve open with fumes, i have still to confirm if it's just open
valve condition or a "torch ersatz failure" which can be dramatic in an EV
battery pack.
Next step is making a spot solder to assemble paralleled cells 3,7V module.
If someone know a source of nickel battery tabs, it will be great,
impossible to find such in France. :^(
thanks
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stefan Peters wrote:
Sorry to repost, but I never got a response from this, maybe it was
lost in the sea of words:
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
Can I simply repack the bearings? Is there any special procedure or
grease I should use?
Yes, yes - I caught the date thing.
HA! I knew that whole Microsoft built in time sync thing wasn't working
much. The computer has been on all day, so I know there was enough time
for it to check and adjust. I'm going to some third party solution. :P
(BTW, it's caused on this computer from a video card that draws too much
from one of those "tiny computer case" power supplies. Results in POST
hiccups when starting the computer - brown-outs and computer clocks
don't mix I guess. Getting new video card soon)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey James
Well you're right, your coils are about out of their insulation integrity and
its was a good thing you pulled them out for a repair / replacement. When you
had said (previous post) that the Nomex was cracking it raised some red flags.
From the pics I can see that it appears the fields are wound with a Nomex strip
between the winding wires themselves. So although they look as if the wire
insulation has been burnt from them (this could be burnt dip, as I've seen
coil's wound with un-insulated wire, just Nomex lined) they could still in fact
be good, but I'd say they did get hurt pretty good. Here are some tips for you
if you intend to repair rather than replace.
As you strip off the outer wrap use the Fusa Fab to band the coil so that it
doesnt become loose. If this is a Nomex lined coil that Nomex is going to
want to crack and crumble and thats the stuff keeping the coil from shorting.
So work slow and put a banding of Fusa Fab in several areas as you work. Apply
the Fusa Fab tightly with a two-ply banding (one ply directly over the first)
as you work to remove the old insulation. Now these will probably be cut off
once you start the re-wrap so no need to over use the Fusa Fab, just enough to
keep the coils together. You might even use a thin tape to conserve your
precious Fusa Fab, just keep the coils tight as you remove the outer wrap.
Once all the outer wrap is removed inspect then for any areas you do not see
the Nomex still between the windings. If in fact you feel the coils are
missing too much of the Nomex I doubt you could use the same technique I used
to repair Jeffs coils being they were new and the insulation fresh. At that
point get them wound up new. If you think they are still usable then read on.
Now I should have sent you a roll or two of the non-adhesive fiberglass wrap.
Id use this, as it will allow the dip to penetrate and saturate the inner
coils and Nomex locking them down and adding strength to the weakened Nomex.
Im thinking you wrap them and have your local shop dip and bake them as an
option. The Fusa Fab although having a dip impregnated into it will prevent
dip from penetrating passed it. When using the wrap you must keep a constant
pressure applied to it or it will become loose and youll be unhappy with the
results. The Fusa Fab can be melted together by applying heat via lighter,
torch, soldering gun at any point to stop and let the fingers rest, or to start
a new extension if you didnt clip enough to finish the coil. For us older
generation guys who may have wrapped the handlebars on a bike it is much the
same process. For those coils (in fact most coils) Id recommend a 3 ply
application. The wrap / Fusa Fab is ¾ wide so try to keep the!
overlap
at ¼ for 3 plys. If you opt to use the Fusa Fab then just heat it and trim
it once the coil is complete. I use a knot to end my regular wrap once done
but few can get it right without a bubble forming. Id suggest finishing that
end area with a banding of the Fusa Fab where the end area is to lock it down.
Hopefully all that made sense. I need to back track a bit here. Before you
start to wrap the coils take some of the sleeve tubing and slip it over the
long straight leads and leave about an inch or better of the lead exposed so
you can make the connection without having to trim it back. I like to start at
the top of the coil usually where the bent lead comes from the inner part of
the coil curves up and over pointing to the next coil. Now when you get to any
lead end you must crisscross the wrap so that you get an underlying wrap
before you continue. So as you come to the lead and you are wrapping over the
lead you need to throw one under it, then back over it before continuing under
it again. Try to leave a nice amount of lead unwrapped. When working around
the corners pay special attention to smoothing the inner area of the corner
with your thumb to keep any bubbling smooth. You will notice that as you go
around the corners it wants to pull one edge harder than !
the
other. Dont worry about any bubbles or loose wrap that is going to form on
the leading edge and focus on the finish edge making that as tight as possible.
If the wrap becomes impossible to manage then stop, tie it off and restart at
the stop area with the other end of the remaining wrap and it should solve the
issue. As with anything else practice makes perfect. Also work from the back
side of the coil facing you. I wrap CCW but it seems a left-handed way (Im
not left handed just weird I guess), as most my guys wrap CW. Ive only
trained one lefty and he liked the CCW direction better also. Youll need to
see what works best for you.
Lets get back to the Fusa Fab option. If you decide to use the FF then
install the coils unbaked. This allows you to seat the coils being they will
be soft which makes them easier to install and they will adhere to the
poleshoes and housing locking them down. Dont try to test them for grounds
until it has been baked, sounds weird but trust me here. If you get the coils
baked then try to heat them before installing them. This will make them softer
and easier to seat the pole shoes.
As a finial note on the shims. Use a pair of snips and cut from the bottom
of the shim up along the hole edges to the top hole crating a hole size gap to
the top hole (do not cut them passed the top hole which would result in cutting
them in half). This way you can just slip them behind the coils once the coils
and shoes are set in loose. This will be much easier than trying to place them
onto the bolts and trying to get the bolts into the shoe holes without the shim
falling down. I hope this all made sense but Im sure youll have additional
questions as you begin this adventure. Anyway have fun and best of luck.
For those who havent seen them I just threw some pics of Jeffs Warp9 field
repair onto the site. Ill be posting as often as I can to address motor
issues and techniques.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com
James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: G'day all - particularly Jim Husted
I just spent the last couple of hours dismantling the fields from my motor,
photos at:
http://jcmassey.gallery.netspace.net.au/Daihatsu-pics-01?page=2
Plans at this stage, the fields are 24 turns, and a bit singed by its'
previous life. Since Jim sent me some Fusa-Fab I'm equipped to tidy them
up. So:
Option 1) Strip off the existing insulation, re-bind, reassemble and bake.
Option 2) Get some new wire and wind new coils, bind, reassemble and bake.
Any which way, with the fields out of the motor tube, I can have the motor
tube sandblasted & paint it. Hmm, yellow, I think. I like yellow. Or maybe
blue... choices, choices...
Also with the Aramid 'paper' Jim sent, I can replace the crunchy
falling-out insulation sheet that was behind the field windings. It's Jims'
fault I'm doing this, got all inspired by the photos he's posted on his web
site!
As usual, all comments welcome.
James
---------------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
I do this all of the time at work as long as the bearings show no signs
of wear.
Mike G.
Sorry to repost, but I never got a response from this, maybe it was
lost in the sea of words:
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
Can I simply repack the bearings? Is there any special procedure or
grease I should use?
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey Stefan
James posted but I'll confirm his opinion. I wouldn't try to repack as these
bearings are fairly inexpensive. If they are a metal sheild type you couldn't
reset the shield, and even on a rubber sealed bearing it would still be alot of
time (and risk) to not just replace them. In fact if I have to repull a new
bearing, I chuck it. My time is just to tight to have to repull the motor
apart to then change it. I'm a motor shop though and so must insure my
customers get top knot. You may decide to try anyway and it may work. That
judgement is left up to you. I use an SKF brand and for the costs they are a
great bearing.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Sorry to repost, but I never got a response from this, maybe it was lost
in the sea of words:
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
>
>
> Can I simply repack the bearings? Is there any special procedure or
> grease I should use?
---------------------------------
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I have used option B(modified)
I wanted a faster turning ratio for my mitsubishi PU because I was
autocrossing it . I got a power steering gearbox from the wrecking yard
and cut off the steel tubes about an inch from the unit I then poured
fluid in both tubes and put a jumper hose between inlet and outlet,
without any hose clamp to keep things clean and lubed and let the hose
pop off if I put too much fluid in there and it "locked up". It has been
that way for the last 70,000 miles or so. Turning at a dead stop is
tough but not bad, I have to set my drink down and use both hands :-).
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When I was moving the EV around in the shop without any hoses connected to the
power steering gearbox, it was very easy to turn. When I install plugs in the
gearbox, so oil would not be shooting all other the place, it was hard to turn.
So, I was wondering, a person could connected the hoses to a to a small fill
tank with a air space and a fill cap that would vent off some air pressure,
something like the power steering pump fill tank has.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Shanab<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: power steering
I have used option B(modified)
I wanted a faster turning ratio for my mitsubishi PU because I was
autocrossing it . I got a power steering gearbox from the wrecking yard
and cut off the steel tubes about an inch from the unit I then poured
fluid in both tubes and put a jumper hose between inlet and outlet,
without any hose clamp to keep things clean and lubed and let the hose
pop off if I put too much fluid in there and it "locked up". It has been
that way for the last 70,000 miles or so. Turning at a dead stop is
tough but not bad, I have to set my drink down and use both hands :-).
--- End Message ---
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Hello:
I posted a message some weeks ago about my NAPA floodies (manufactured by
Excide). Before I bite the bullet and dump 'em in favour of some Trojans,
I'd like to post a few measurements and ask the list if those measurements
are a sign of bad batteries or a bad user ;)
S-10, 144 Volts
I need about 100 to 130 Amps to hold 55 mph. Freshly charged batteries
drop from > 150 Volts to < 133 Volts on accelleration pulling approx. 200
A. After about 15 Minutes pulling 150 A, voltage starts to go down very
fast, though idle voltage goes back up to > 140 Volts. After another 5
Minutes, Voltage has reached approx. 120 V (at 150 A) and idle Voltage is
now at 135 V. Everything goes downhill from there very rapidly.
I checked cables (nothing warm) and checked for bad cells (all Voltages
are in the range of 0.15 Volts under load.
My current range is about 15 Miles, maybe 5 Miles more if I really push it.
Can somebody please tell me, if their floodies drop in Voltage as bad as
my NAPA floodies as I think that my other (Nissan) truck with Trojans
never showed that kind of Voltage drop and has a way flatter discharge
curve.
Thanks
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 3:11 AM
Subject: Re: Motor Question
> Sorry to repost, but I never got a response from this, maybe it was lost
> in the sea of words:
>
> Stefan T. Peters wrote:
> >
> >
> > Can I simply repack the bearings? Is there any special procedure or
> > grease I should use?
>
Hi Stefan;
Bleecck! Why bother? The messy, gooey grease! Motor bearings are a
sealed sort of thing, anyhow, would be hell to get the damn seals off and
on, tight, right. Maybe to get you out of a nowhare place, to promise your
faithful motor that you would buy it some nice NEW bearings, like SKF,
Fafners, Timkins, good makes, ya get what ya Pay for, after you get back to
civilization, kind of thing.Jim said it pretty well on his posts. Don't
hammer, although it is tempting, to beat them in to submission! If you can
press them on nicely, they should last, although I have been through a set
of them with my 9 inch motor. They were "Made in China" ones that I hammered
off. Didn't say WHO made them in China, but they were shot. I thought that
since I was running the VW clutch setup that EVery time I put the clutch in
was putting end thrust on the bearings, which MIGHT help wear them out?? For
lack of another reason they died? Or just crappy quality?I suggested to
Warfield guyz to just go with bigger ballsier ball bearings? Hell! Spend
your money here, as what OTHER wearing parts, brushes excepted , do you have
in a motor anywhere, anyhow? May as well go all out!
Stay tuned, I have a vibration issue, now, with my Rabbit. No more ghosty
electric glide we all know and love so well. It Grawls, like a Diseasel, in
lower gears as the RPM goes up. Balance issue? Maybe I'm beating the
bearings to death with a poor balance? My thoughts are on this: When VW
built the clutch/pressure plate flywheel, manage of scrap iron, do they
balance things with the engine? Or is it done piecemeal? like the clutch
pack separate to the engine, and since I junked the Diseasel YEARS ago, the
stuff that I have left, that I'm using ISN'T dynamicly balanced as a stand
alone thing. I think I will assemble the armature, clutch an' flywheel,
schlepp it to a balance place and let them spin it up and balance
EVerything. Ideas?
Seeya at BBB
No SNOW there!
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe Borges wrote:
John be careful...it seems to me you are becoming addicteed to Dragtimes.com
:^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Maybe you're right....I need help! Is there a support group that could
perhaps intervein, take away my computer and the keys to my rides?
See Ya.....John 'addicted to speed' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela Merz wrote:
> I need about 100 to 130 Amps to hold 55 mph. Freshly charged batteries
> drop from > 150 Volts to < 133 Volts on accelleration pulling approx.
> 200 A.
That sounds about right. I had a set of Sam's Club Exide 6v golf cart
batteries in my ComutaVan. When new and warm, they dropped 0.5v at 200a; when
5 years old and with 10,000+ miles on them, they dropped 1v under load. Your
24 batteries drop from 150v to 133v which is 0.7v per 6v battery.
> After about 15 Minutes pulling 150 A, voltage starts to go down very
> fast, though idle voltage goes back up to > 140 Volts. After another 5
> Minutes, Voltage has reached approx. 120 V (at 150 A) and idle Voltage is
> now at 135 V. Everything goes downhill from there very rapidly.
Are your batteries cold? This significantly raises their internal resistance,
and thus voltage drops.
Have you been chronically overcharging (using a lot of water)? Overcharging
tends to cause grid corrosion, which permanently increases the internal
resistance. A batter with this problem has normal voltage and capacity, but
behaves like it has a resistor in series with it.
Do you have any "stinkers" in the pack that have unusually low amphour
capacity? All it takes is one bad cell to increase the resistance of the
entire string, and limit your voltage. You can find it by taking a drive to
discharge the pack, then load-testing each individual battery. Any that drop
much more than the rest are your leading suspects.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stefan,
Are you aware that the date setting on your computer is 2/2/06?
Don
Stefan Peters wrote:
Sorry to repost, but I never got a response from this, maybe it was lost
in the sea of words:
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
Can I simply repack the bearings? Is there any special procedure or
grease I should use?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I dusted of the mitsu and took it for a drive today and remembered one
more detail that you may be able to reverse to make things easier to steer.
A combination of increase in my weight and the rollcage and the race
seat left me with a situation where by with the seat against the cage,
my feet hit ok, (actually it would be nice to move the seat back just
for the pedals) and my stomach was hitting the stock 17" steeringwheel.
It was so big cause it was for the manual steering box. Not thinking
about it, I changed it with a 13" steering wheel I had lying around and
it is a lot harder to steer at zero speed than before but doable for me.
But not my friend, cousin, sister or mom. All healthy women but I guess
us men have a markedly higher upper body strength.
So if you don't have the same clearance issue, perhaps changing to a
larger diameter steering wheel would help compensate for lack of a pump.
I now understand and want one of those D-shaped wheels, more clearance
and more leverage. This works on autogearboxes better probably because
the tighter ratio usually means < 90degree turn each way.
Also, I had a gearbox, not a rack on the truck. I had been driveing the
300ezx without the pump the same way and it has a rack. I didn't even
notice. What I fear is that with a rack and pinion not having pump
pressure could mean that hitting something can more eaisly take the
wheel out of your hand.
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I do not believe they even make a 96 volt NG1.
Chuck Hursch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Is that 10A @ 72V about as high as it
will go? At 96V it will
probably be significantly less amperage. While it has most of
the night to charge, I doubt I want to charge 235A-hr floodeds at
6-8A all the time. I usually charge at ~11A off my 120V line
with my Zivan K2. So all considered, if the K2 is toast, I'm
probably just going to stick with my variac for charging. It's
paid for.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricky Suiter"
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: After Marin ampabout, Zivan down, needs exorcism
> No no no, I'm running 144 in my Saturn EV with a PFC30 charger.
My GEM car (you know, those egg shaped NEV's) has a Zivan in it.
It's only 72 volts, and something like a 10 amp output from NG1.
The thing does draw something like 12 amps from the line though
so that alone would generate some heat in any connection, throw
in the poor fuse holder and melt!
>
> I added some captions to the photos.
>
> Chuck Hursch wrote:
> Hi Ricky,
>
> Thanks for the tip, and I looked at the photos (annotations
would
> be helpful, at least saying what this photo is, and you need a
> close-up lens or somesuch, but I do appreciate you posting
them).
> Strange, the pdf file for the NG1 gave me the impression that
the
> NG1 would have troubles putting anything more than about 8A
into
> my 96V pack (pdf file on zivanusa site seemed to imply it was
> more a lower DC voltage charger). Yet I got the impression from
> Greg that it might be closer to 10A or so, and here you are at
> 144V with your EV using an NG1 (at what amps?).
>
> Chuck
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ricky Suiter"
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 6:43 PM
> Subject: Re: After Marin ampabout, Zivan down, needs exorcism
>
>
> > I'm not really familiar with Zivans other than the NG1
charger
> in my GEM car, but here's something to ponder. On the NG1's
they
> came with a plastic fuse holder for the main power in to the
unit
> with a 16 amp (yes 16 amp, kind of a weird rating) ceramic fuse
> in them. Well you pull ~12 amps at 120 through this and it gets
> pretty hot and it's a known issue with GEM's to melt this fuse
> holder, and of course mine did just that. Here's some pictures
of
> the destruction and repair, the fuse holder took an EMI
> supression capacitor next to it out with it.
> > http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ricksuiter/album?.dir=fb59
> > I just soldered a fuse in directly to minimize any
> unnecessary resistance the fuse holder may have caused. I've
> corresponded with Greg from Elcon before and if you buy one of
> these chargers from him they automatically desolder the fuse
> holder and solder a fuse directly to the board.
> >
> > Now granted when mine went poof I didn't have any strange
> electrical things happen in the house, or even a tripped
breaker.
> >
> > Chuck Hursch wrote:
> > My 120V Zivan K2, which had been functioning perfectly for
> years,
> > died last night shortly after I plugged it in. When I plugged
> it
> > in, it did its usual start-up sequence with the lights and
all
> > seemed well as I went back upstairs to my apt. As I was
washing
> > my dishes, I noticed that the 1/4-watt neon pilot light I
have
> in
> > the kitchen for the 20A circuit that goes down to the carport
> was
> > out. Odd, I thought, that is very unusual. The microwave oven
> > on that circuit is also out (no display), so it's not just a
> > burnt out lightbulb. Hmmm... Yep, the circuit breaker in the
> > closet is tripped. Well, gotta have power to figure out
what's
> > going on, so I decided to reset the breaker. Immediately
heard
> a
> > sound that seemed like a lot of current was flowing, with a
bit
> > of light dimming and brightening on other circuits, but the
> > circuit breaker did not re-trip. With the Zivan's normal
> > soft-start, this would be a bit unexpected, although I would
> > occasionally get a bit of pop and arc when I would plug the
> thing
> > in, I presume charging up some caps (pop would depend I think
> on
> > how true and quickly the plug went into the AC socket). Well,
> > with somewhat heavy heart, I tromped downstairs back to the
> > carport, opened the hatch and peered in. No lights, no
nothing,
> > no smokey smell from the Zivan, just the usual whir of the
fan
> > venting the rear pack enclosure. I verified pack voltage at
the
> > charger, and nothing else seemed amiss that would cause the
> > charger to malfunction. I disconnected the charger from the
> > pack, unplugged the car, and decided to implement Plan B
> charging
> > in the morning.
> >
> > Always have a backup Plan B for charging. If I did not, I
would
> > have a semi-discharged pack sitting for days or weeks while
the
> > charger is turned around (if repairable), shortening the life
> of
> > the pack, and making the car unusable. Plan B for me these
> years
> > is a 20A variac running through a full-wave bridge rectifier.
I
> > have used this rig for equalizing the car's traction pack
many,
> > many times, but I have never really done a full bulk charge.
I
> > thought one of these days I would try a practise run or two,
> but
> > never got around to it. Now I'm doing it for real, as I write
> > this email. I am the servo (cranking up the knob as the pack
> > voltage rises, although don't have to do that much during
most
> of
> > the bulk charge as the voltage doesn't move much), and it is
> also
> > non-isolated charging (yep, the car is wet from last night's
> > rain, and the floor of the carport is also damp, but I've
been
> > there and done that with non-isolated chargers and haven't
> gotten
> > hurt, just don't like it anymore).
> >
> > I have a call into Greg McCrea, of Electric Conversions, up
in
> > Sacramento, the person from whom I bought the Zivan. A live
> > person on the other end of the line, a woman, answered the
> phone.
> > Greg is supposed to call me back. In the meantime, I pour
over
> > in my mind the possibilities.(and it was a somewhat sleepless
> > night last night, thinking about the pack not getting it's
> > nightly fill-up, and what's going on with the charger). I'm
> > hoping it's nothing more than a blown rectifier that tripped
> the
> > circuit breaker the first time around, and maybe blew a fuse
in
> > the charger the second time around. My previous K&W BC-20
> > charger had somewhat similar symptoms when it blew its
> rectifier
> > back in the late '90s, and fortunately that event took
nothing
> > else in the charger with it. K&W turned it around quickly and
> > inexpensively, and I used that charger for another year or
two
> > before I sold it to another EVDL'er.
> >
> > So any opinions amongst you learned exorcists out there as to
> > what happened with the Zivan?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Later,
> > Ricky
> > 02 Insight
> > 92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
> > Glendale, AZ USA
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Later,
> Ricky
> 02 Insight
> 92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
> Glendale, AZ USA
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
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