EV Digest 5113
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 12volt alternator or dc-dc convertor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: See this video!
by "stU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 1231C and Lynch motor
by Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) budget EV insurance
by Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: 1231C and Lynch motor
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Bad floodies??
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 2 motors & 2 controllers?(Re: Paralleling and Serialing)
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Vibration/balance
by Ken Albright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 12volt alternator or dc-dc convertor
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Two controllers one motor. Was: Paralleling and Serialing Controllers
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: 12volt alternator or dc-dc convertor
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 12volt alternator or dc-dc convertor
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 12volt alternator or dc-dc convertor
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Vibration/balance
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) ev forklift attachment?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 12volt alternator or dc-dc convertor
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 12volt alternator or dc-dc convertor
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Test batteries (was: Bad floodies?)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 12volt alternator or dc-dc convertor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Vibration/balance
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
21) Re: 12volt alternator or dc-dc convertor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) adaptor, was: re: 10hp clark Industrial truck motor
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Grasser wrote:
> What bothers me about running off just a battery is that it is
> only 12 volts. Too dim of headlight for me.
Headlights are actually rated at 12.5 volts. That's where they deliver
normal brightness and life. A car's electrical system is around 14
volts. Thus, they design car wiring to have about 1-2 volts of voltage
drop. They do this by using undersized wire, cheap connectors, and fuses
with a high voltage drop.
If you use this stock wiring without an alternator or DC/DC, the 12-13v
from the battery falls to only 10-11 volts at the headlight. No wonder
they are dim!
A DC/DC can restore the voltage to what you had with the alternator. Or,
you can improve the stock auto company wiring to eliminate the voltage
drop. For example, my ComutaVan had no DC/DC for most of its life. I
added headlight relays, one for high beams and one for low beams. Heavy
wire ran from the battery+, thru a 30a fuse, the relay contacts, and to
the headlights. The stock wiring powered the coils of these relays. I
then had only a 0.1v drop betwen battery and headlights. Since a 12v
battery actually delivers about 12.5v, I got full voltage and normal
brightness at my headlights -- without a DC/DC!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim,
For your son Matt:
See: http://www.rc-expert.com/product.php?pid=156
Details of the control mechanism are shown.
All electric. Cost? $150 complete!!!
(I am dreaming of a full sized one for my garage.)
Stu
See: http://www.rc-expert.com/product.php?pid=156
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim Husted
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 1:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: See this video!
Those are freaking awesome. I want one bad!! My sone Matt is goon flip his
lid when he sees this. They just need to make them car sized now, lmao!
Just had to say WoW, and thanks for sharing.
Jim Husted
stU <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
For a Good Time Click
Watch the entire clip.
Electric motor powered.
http://www.hobbytron.com/HydroFoam.html
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos - Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
Photo Books. You design it and we'll bind it!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought an inductor does to current what a capacitor does to voltage.
Both smooth out the ripple. (Following is based on all other things
being equal) If a cap is properly matched to its power supply, you
should have low ripple, and if you lower the input frequency you would
get more P-P ripple, and to counter act this higher ripple you would
have to increase the capacitance (thus switch mode power supplies get
away with small caps). Now, if you raise the frequency, you can lower
the capacitance, and still maintain the same ripple as a low frequency,
high capacitance setup.
Doesn't inductance do the same thing? The motor is an inductor. Isn't
the motor smoothing out the inductor current ripple which shows up as
excess heat? If a motor has 50% less inductance than the typical motor,
you should feed 50% more frequency into it thus the ripple voltage
remains the same and the heat losses remain the same between the two
setups.
Maybe I'm missing something. Input welcomed. Thanks.
Tim
Lee Hart wrote:
Tim wrote:
Instead of inserting inductance (extra cost, space, weight,
losses)... can a person just find a controller that operates at
a higher frequency or raise the frequency of the controller you
now have? What frequency would you actually need that would allow
the Lynch to operate without inserting the extra inductance?
Yes, it is cheaper and lighter to leave out the inductor. But it worsens
efficiency, and makes the controller's current limit work poorly (lowers
reliability).
Done right, the inductor *raises* efficiency. If you run high frequency
AC into an inductor with a core designed for low frequencies, it creates
core losses. Motors don't have good high-frequency cores. When the motor
is used as an inductor, this means extra heat and loss in the motor.
When you use a separate inductor chosen for low losses at the operating
frequency, it increases efficiency and makes the motor run cooler.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to everyone who responded to my 10hp motor suitability query.
I wonder if I can tap your experience on the issue of insuring a
conversion. My initial inquiries with my existing ICE vehicle insurer
were not good. While my broker was intrigued and helpful, the
underwriter (Pilot Insurance Company) was not.
I was told they will NOT insure an EV converted by a hobbyist (i.e. me).
Only a "professional" conversion qualifies. Asked for a definition of
"professional", the answer came back: "a licenced mechanic." Asked
whether a post-conversion inspection by a professional mechanic would
satisfy them? "No."
Inquiring to a second insurance company returned the same answers.
(I should point out that I was only seeking 3rd party liability
coverage, so the issue of vehicle value, appraisals, etc. wasn't even
being considered.)
My broker's interpretation: insurance companies have become
significantly more aware (and wary) of the words "conversion" or
"modification" because of the dramatic rise in the number of people
doing "tuner" cars. Think "Fast and Furious" and you have the picture.
Their response has been increased resistance to covering vehicles
which have been changed in any way from "stock".
I realize one option is "don't ask, don't tell" (undoubtedly the
approach of the fast and furious crowd). But, while it may satisfy the
police officer seeking proof of insurance at a traffic stop, it will
evidently leave me (and the 3rd party) up the creek in the event that I
actually need to make a claim.
I assume that most folks on this list are not licenced mechanics, and
are driving "non-professional" conversions. Has anyone else encountered
or dealt with this problem?
thanks,
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Isn't the motor smoothing out the inductor current ripple
> which shows up as excess heat? If a motor has 50% less
> inductance than the typical motor, you should feed 50% more
> frequency into it thus the ripple voltage remains the same
> and the heat losses remain the same between the two setups.
>
> Maybe I'm missing something. Input welcomed. Thanks.
You have the concept right, but are missing the fact that real-world
inductors and capacitors are not equally well-suited for use at low and
high frequencies. An inductor that works well at low frequencies may be
terrible at a few tens of kHz and vice versa. Likewise, some caps are
just fine at 60 or 120Hz but just wouldn't do the job at 20kHz.
Lee is merely pointing out that the typical motor is a poor high
frequency inductor. Yes, it will still act like an inductor at higher
frequencies and will smooth the current, but it will not do so
efficiently.
Since we are somewhat limited in our choices of motors, we have little
control over their characteristics and it happens that if you have a
motor that is lossy when fed high frequency ripple it may be better
overall to add an external inductor that is well-suited to use at this
frequency since it will then efficiently smooth this ripple and reduce
the losses in the motor.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>Once again, I don't see any physical reason for this to be the case. In
>>fact I can see a way that the contrary might be true.
>>Sulfate formation is a normal process of discharge...
and more so in a deep discharge state. As brought up earlier the starved
electrolyte concentration in the sealed batteries pulls the energy out of
the acid before beginning to deplete the plates (as much).
>>However, I don't see the mechanism by which this sulfate shedding
>>can occur in an immobilized electrolyte cell.
Thats why many manufacturers tell you not to "equalize" your
AGM's or Gels (for the purposes of desulfating)...
>>I think they advise this rather because equalization is potentially more
>>damaging to VRR batteries. If the current is too high the battery will
>>vent, and the water lost can't be replaced (at least not without opening
the
>>battery and voiding the warranty).
This is true. An interesting concept too in VRLA charging is the "Finish
Charging" of the cells. It is done basically like an Equaliize charge but
not specifically for the same reason than in a flooded cell. This last
stage after the Constant Current then Constant Voltage is equivalent to a
short duration equalize charge to give the gasses a chance to recombine.
>>As I understand it, once the sulfate has formed large crystals, it can't
be
>>"boiled off." It represents active material that's no longer available to
>>provide usable capacity. But it's true that one can equalize a flooded
>>battery more frequently, and make the most of the capacity that it
retains.
I agree that this is true for all lead acid batteries
>>Getting the best life from any lead battery involves balancing capacity
loss
>>from overcharging with capacity loss from undercharging. There's probably
>>more art than science to this.
I agree here to and I see now that I was overstating the differences between
the two types of lead acid batteries. However my main point was that the
flooded batteries are easier to abuse when they are cold. In a previous
thread I conceded that if the flooded bateries are maintained warm then you
could potentially see the superior capacity they offer over the sealed
batteries. In my case however I've killed plenty of lead acid batteries
through half negligence and half due to circumstances that were beyond my
control. The extra cost and less overall capacity for the VRLA batteries is
worth the added cold weather protection. Inthe same way you can baby the
flooded cells to keep them warm and increase their life, you can also baby
the VRLA's and extend their life if you do not cycle them too deep. If
however I kill these VRLA's too, I'll be sad and may rethink my position.
I agree there is both art and science involved.
Mike,
Anchorage, AK.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1-what if you wanted one motor to power the back end,
and another to power the front end?
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> You would use a belt and pully system. Or chain.
> Two motors would fit
> above or to the side of the transmission. Their
> outputs would be in line
> with the input shaft of the transmission. An easy
> solution to two motors.
> The motor area could then be used for batteries.
> LR......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mike golub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 5:23 PM
> Subject: 2 motors & 2 controllers?(Re: Paralleling
> and Serialing)
>
>
> > How do you set up a car to do that?
> > If one motor was on the rear wheels, and another
> motor
> > was on the front wheels on a 4wd car, what
> technique
> > is used so one set of wheels doesn't rotate faster
> > than the other?
> >
> > Has anyone have more information on this?
> >
> > Maybe you could get a Geo Metro and add another
> motor
> > on the rearend?
> >
> > --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Two controllers in parallel can't be done.
> However
> >> what will work is two
> >> controllers and two motors. If you want a 144
> vdc
> >> controller/motor combo on
> >> the cheap then use two L91's and two Altrax 72v
> >> controllers. . Cheaper
> >> better faster........144 is always divided by
> two.
> >> LR>........
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <[email protected]>
> >> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:11 PM
> >> Subject: Paralleling and Serialing Controllers
> >>
> >>
> >> >I can hear the chorus of "Bad idea" already! Has
> >> anyone actually
> >> > tried paralleling 2 controllers for more
> current,
> >> or putting 2
> >> > controllers in series to handle more voltage?
> >> >
> >> > My thoughts are paralleling might work if they
> had
> >> equal current, and
> >> > big enough capacitors that either controller
> could
> >> take full current.
> >> >
> >> > Similarly, it seems if you had big enough
> >> capacitors neither
> >> > controller's transistors would see full
> voltage.
> >> >
> >> > My thoughts were motivated by seeing Curtis
> sepex
> >> controllers. They
> >> > seem to have lots of nice features, and are
> pretty
> >> cheap. 80 Volts
> >> > and 600 Amps is a bit wimpy, though! Might they
> >> survive being put in
> >> > series? Would it help to parallel them with
> some
> >> big capacitors?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks in advance for the education.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> __________________________________________________
> >> > Do You Yahoo!?
> >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> >> protection around
> >> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I now have the 9" ADC motor installed in my Scirocco conversion. Without the
drive axles attached, I spun the motor with a 12v battery. As it was getting
up to speed (at about the 3/4 point) there was a fair amount of vibration. At
full speed, for 12v, the vibration mostly went away. I don't know how to
quantify the vibration other than to say it wasn't severe. At most the top of
the bell housing was probably moving about 3/8 to 1/2 an inch.
Is this something to worry about or is it to be expected?
Thanks,
Ken
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays,
whatever.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Grasser wrote:
What bothers me about running off just a battery is that it is
only 12 volts. Too dim of headlight for me.
Headlights are actually rated at 12.5 volts. That's where they deliver
normal brightness and life. A car's electrical system is around 14
volts. Thus, they design car wiring to have about 1-2 volts of voltage
drop. They do this by using undersized wire, cheap connectors, and fuses
with a high voltage drop.
Well Lee, now I'll have to do some homework as I disagree with yiou on the
design in of voltage drop, especially headlights. May be true in the states
but just because "cheap" is the name of the game. My German car has
headlight relays and 12 gauge to the high and low beams seperately. It light
s the road with stasndard bulbs better then any other car I have ever
driven. Bulbs have been in there for 3 years now and are just fine, only
brighter.
If you use this stock wiring without an alternator or DC/DC, the 12-13v
from the battery falls to only 10-11 volts at the headlight. No wonder
they are dim!
A DC/DC can restore the voltage to what you had with the alternator. Or,
you can improve the stock auto company wiring to eliminate the voltage
drop. For example, my ComutaVan had no DC/DC for most of its life. I
added headlight relays, one for high beams and one for low beams. Heavy
wire ran from the battery+, thru a 30a fuse, the relay contacts, and to
the headlights. The stock wiring powered the coils of these relays. I
then had only a 0.1v drop betwen battery and headlights. Since a 12v
battery actually delivers about 12.5v, I got full voltage and normal
brightness at my headlights -- without a DC/DC!
Too bad you didn't have the 14 volts to the headlights to begin with, you
wouldn't have had to squint so much. :-)
Grasser
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Single Armature? How much work is there seperating the inductors? Two 72v
controllers are cheaper than most 144v controllers. What mods on a series
motor are needed to achieve this. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: Paralleling and Serialing Controllers
David Dymaxion wrote:
Well, actually, I would like to actually hook things up and see what
happens, maybe even enjoy a smoke and light show, but the EVDL is a
much cheaper way to learn. :)
Good. Before you go hiking in the quicksand bog of controller design,
it's good to see what paths others took, and what happened to them.
"I do not learn from my mistakes. I learn from *other people's*
mistakes." -- Kaiser Wilhelm
Running two controllers in series or parallel is possible, but a lot
harder than one. You can find lots of literature on it with regards to
running switchmode power supplies in parallel or series.
The scheme of splitting a motor's field into two inductors, and using
each one with its own controller, and driving a single armature is
probably the simplest route. But it still will require careful control
of the two controllers to avoid unpleasant surprises.
What if each switch has a large capacitor across it? It seems the
capacitor would work hard to keep the voltage the same, so the switch
would not suddenly see full voltage. If you are switching fast
enough, and your capacitor time constant is slow enough, might you
then get away with two switches (i.e. controllers) in series?
Yes, this is possible. This is how "snubbers" work. You also need
resistors and/or diodes in series with each capacitor to limit the peak
current when a switch turns on, or if the switches turn off at slightly
different times.
There is also a rich field of "lossless" snubbers, "soft" switches,
resonant and quasi-resonant switching, and other techniques to carefully
shape and control the voltage and current in a high-speed switch to
maximize efficiency and reliability. Most EV controller builders haven't
discovered these techniques yet, though they are widely used in other
fields.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was planning on using a deep cycle 12volt battery.
Still seems easier to charge that 12 volt battery on a
12 volt charger when you do your other charging? (But
still have a dc-dc convertor)
Maybe design a circuit that allows the dc-dc convertor
not to go on until 80% DOD on the accessory battery?
--- Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you're using a DC-DC converter, which is acting
> like an alternator to
> charge the battery, it sounds like you just need an
> SLI battery, right,
> since it's not usually going to get pulled down very
> far in DOD?
>
> I've also heard of some people using a deep cycle
> battery instead of an SLI.
> If you use a deep cycle with lots of amp hours,
> would that tend to work
> without a DC-DC?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 12:24 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: 12volt alternator or dc-dc convertor
>
> Mike,
>
> Think of this:
> You drive somewhere at night, cold and wet outside
> so you
> not only have the headlights going but also the
> defogging,
> wipers and what-not.
> Then you find yourself stuck in a queue waiting for
> a
> traffic light, and another one and again, then the
> railway
> crossing closes in your face.
> Before it re-opens you slowly see your headlights
> getting
> dimmer and dimmer, the wipers stop mid-window and
> you see
> the traffic light after the railway turning red
> again....
>
> You want to get stuck on a railroad crossing (or any
> other
> roadway crossing) because you were too cheap to
> install a
> DC/DC converter and your 12V battery died?
>
> Look at what Toyota did with the Prius. They could
> have
> installed an alternator - the engine normally does
> not
> shut off for more than a few minutes.
> Why then did they add a 100A 12V inverter to the
> motor
> controller? Guess?
>
> Success with your conversion,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private:
> http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD#
> 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of mike golub
> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 10:11 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: 12volt alternator or dc-dc convertor
>
>
> OK, but why do I need to charge my accessory battery
> (w/ a DC-DC convertor) when I'm waiting for a
> traffic
> light?
>
> --- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > At 08:54 PM 20/01/06 -0800, Mike Golub wrote:
> > >Which would draw more power from the batteries:
> > >
> > >1- running a dc-dc converter
> > >2- running the alternator off the tail shaft of
> 9"
> > WarP motor
> > >
> > >..small enough to fit directly on the tailshaft?
> >
> > Hi Mike
> >
> > The DC/DC is less power (more efficient).
> >
> > Alternators need to rev up to deliver power, on an
> > ICE they are typically
> > 1.2x to 2.5x crank RPM.
> >
> > Use an alternator if you want cheap, use a DC/DC
> if
> > you want efficient and
> > keeping the voltage up at each stop.
> >
> > James
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
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>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Found this in a flash. So I was a little low, just backs up yhy to have a dc
to dc.
European ECE standards prescribe a design voltage of 13.2 V for headlight
lamps and 13.5 V for auxiliary lamps. <<<.
Mark Grasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: 12volt alternator or dc-dc convertor
Mark Grasser wrote:
What bothers me about running off just a battery is that it is
only 12 volts. Too dim of headlight for me.
Headlights are actually rated at 12.5 volts. That's where they deliver
normal brightness and life. A car's electrical system is around 14
volts. Thus, they design car wiring to have about 1-2 volts of voltage
drop. They do this by using undersized wire, cheap connectors, and fuses
with a high voltage drop.
If you use this stock wiring without an alternator or DC/DC, the 12-13v
from the battery falls to only 10-11 volts at the headlight. No wonder
they are dim!
A DC/DC can restore the voltage to what you had with the alternator. Or,
you can improve the stock auto company wiring to eliminate the voltage
drop. For example, my ComutaVan had no DC/DC for most of its life. I
added headlight relays, one for high beams and one for low beams. Heavy
wire ran from the battery+, thru a 30a fuse, the relay contacts, and to
the headlights. The stock wiring powered the coils of these relays. I
then had only a 0.1v drop betwen battery and headlights. Since a 12v
battery actually delivers about 12.5v, I got full voltage and normal
brightness at my headlights -- without a DC/DC!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Mark Grasser wrote:
What bothers me about running off just a battery is that it is
only 12 volts. Too dim of headlight for me.
Headlights are actually rated at 12.5 volts. That's where they deliver
normal brightness and life. A car's electrical system is around 14
volts. Thus, they design car wiring to have about 1-2 volts of voltage
drop. They do this by using undersized wire, cheap connectors, and fuses
with a high voltage drop.
I have seen right-ups on using modern alternators when restoring older
cars, and this comes up on a regular basis. They say that this is why a
typical alternator with built in regulator has a "voltage sense" wire
that should go to the output side of the main fusible link or the "bus"
that many cars have (a central point that the positive line from the
battery and the feed to the fuse panel meet). This is due to the
built-in various voltage drops of a ICE car's wiring harness, which
would cause incorrect alternator output voltage if connected elsewhere,
and why the one-wire alternators (which were originally designed for
tractor use connected straight to the battery with a *short* lead) are a
bad idea with most cars as they will not get enough voltage to the
battery to keep it charged.
I'm glad to have the benefit of wiring my conversion from scratch. I
plan to use the "DC rail" with power take-off schema you have described,
which is common in many telco applications (very voltage sensitive), and
makes much more sense for an electric car. But if you are sticking with
the original wiring, then 14+V it should be then. That or use a DC/DC
converter with a remote sense input and wire it as the factory
alternator (which it is replacing). Then the output should be set to
13.8V (spec for a typical car harness) as sensed at the "bus". Most auto
shop manuals will give 13.4 - 13.8VDC as the recommended reading when
diagnosing the cars electrical system.
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--- Begin Message ---
Subject: Vibration/balance
WOW, 3/8 to ahalf is a lot!
You might want to check the differential where the axle shafts go in, the
shafts are sometimes the support for the differential on the bearings.
without the axle shafts the diff. is not centered. The other possibility /
probability is that your motor to transmission coupling is either not
centered or is tight to the length and could be binding.
I now have the 9" ADC motor installed in my Scirocco conversion. Without
the drive axles attached, I spun the motor with a 12v battery. As it was
getting up to speed (at about the 3/4 point) there was a fair amount of
vibration. At full speed, for 12v, the vibration mostly went away. I don't
know how to quantify the vibration other than to say it wasn't severe. At
most the top of the bell housing was probably moving about 3/8 to 1/2 an
inch.
Is this something to worry about or is it to be expected?
Thanks,
Ken
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays,
whatever.
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--- Begin Message ---
Can a winch or a forklift be added to the tailshaft on
my 86 pickup truck conversion?
Thanks
Mike
--- Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Ok so it's definitely not a low speed conversion.
> Over 35mph, air resistance will make your car
> consume a lot's of energy so
> you have to carry arround twice more batteries to
> achieve same range at
> "little" higher speed.
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du
> volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "lee parrish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 3:11 AM
> Subject: Re: chevy astro conversion?Re: chevy astro
> conversion?
>
>
> > Thanks for the reminder Philippe....
> >
> > To answer you question, the minimum speed on this
> > stretch is 40mph, with a max of 55mph.
> >
> > I meant to mention that.
> >
> > I have seen slow moving vehicles on the road here,
> and
> > have been one myself. The "Spirit of Aloha"
> > necessitates pulling off to the side if a line
> forms
> > behind you, to let the line pass, otherwise
> driving
> > the minimum speed is not problem.
> >
> > -Lee
> >
> >
> > You can go far on a flat road at low speed
> > inexpensively on lead acid
> > batteries, what is the required speed ?
> >
> > cordialement,
> > Philippe
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And that wire can also be used to regulate when the alternator puts out
power, at least in theory. Providing it a signal under the set voltage
will increase the voltage output and vice versa. Since the alternator
has a built-in rectifier (usually), setting it to put out under 12v will
not result in consuming power off the battery, just no charging current.
Using it as "regenerative braking" came up. The interesting potential
here is that the voltage can be changed (or a relay can just disconnect
the power output) so that the alternator loads up only when braking, or
an override would also engage it when the battery gets low.
I can't imagine this being a really strong effect though; conventional
high power alternators put out around 2-3 hp peak, when cold. That
would only apply if the battery were heavily discharged and you were
able to get it to accept huge charging currents (which may damage the
battery). And 2 hp is only a light braking effect. Still, any power
drawn off during necessary braking, in the a system with no other regen
potential, is basically free power.
Danny
Stefan Peters wrote:
I have seen right-ups on using modern alternators when restoring older
cars, and this comes up on a regular basis. They say that this is why
a typical alternator with built in regulator has a "voltage sense"
wire that should go to the output side of the main fusible link or the
"bus" that many cars have (a central point that the positive line from
the battery and the feed to the fuse panel meet). This is due to the
built-in various voltage drops of a ICE car's wiring harness, which
would cause incorrect alternator output voltage if connected
elsewhere, and why the one-wire alternators (which were originally
designed for tractor use connected straight to the battery with a
*short* lead) are a bad idea with most cars as they will not get
enough voltage to the battery to keep it charged.
I'm glad to have the benefit of wiring my conversion from scratch. I
plan to use the "DC rail" with power take-off schema you have
described, which is common in many telco applications (very voltage
sensitive), and makes much more sense for an electric car. But if you
are sticking with the original wiring, then 14+V it should be then.
That or use a DC/DC converter with a remote sense input and wire it as
the factory alternator (which it is replacing). Then the output should
be set to 13.8V (spec for a typical car harness) as sensed at the
"bus". Most auto shop manuals will give 13.4 - 13.8VDC as the
recommended reading when diagnosing the cars electrical system.
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Just when I become concerned that I am nuts I research and find I am just
fine. This statement is everywhere.
The charging system in most cars will generally produce a voltage between
13.5 and 14.4 volts while the engine is running.<<<
And yes my plan is to keep the factory wiring, why wouldn't you: The factory
alarm, delay headlights, etc. Why would you re-wire the car in a
conversion??
Mark Grasser
Subject: Re: 12volt alternator or dc-dc convertor
Lee,
Found this in a flash. So I was a little low, just backs up yhy to have a
dc to dc.
European ECE standards prescribe a design voltage of 13.2 V for
headlight lamps and 13.5 V for auxiliary lamps. <<<.
Mark Grasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: 12volt alternator or dc-dc convertor
Mark Grasser wrote:
What bothers me about running off just a battery is that it is
only 12 volts. Too dim of headlight for me.
Headlights are actually rated at 12.5 volts. That's where they deliver
normal brightness and life. A car's electrical system is around 14
volts. Thus, they design car wiring to have about 1-2 volts of voltage
drop. They do this by using undersized wire, cheap connectors, and fuses
with a high voltage drop.
If you use this stock wiring without an alternator or DC/DC, the 12-13v
from the battery falls to only 10-11 volts at the headlight. No wonder
they are dim!
A DC/DC can restore the voltage to what you had with the alternator. Or,
you can improve the stock auto company wiring to eliminate the voltage
drop. For example, my ComutaVan had no DC/DC for most of its life. I
added headlight relays, one for high beams and one for low beams. Heavy
wire ran from the battery+, thru a 30a fuse, the relay contacts, and to
the headlights. The stock wiring powered the coils of these relays. I
then had only a 0.1v drop betwen battery and headlights. Since a 12v
battery actually delivers about 12.5v, I got full voltage and normal
brightness at my headlights -- without a DC/DC!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> ...Getting the best life from any lead battery involves
> balancing capacity loss from overcharging with capacity
> loss from undercharging. There's probably more art than
> science to this.
That reminds me. I have a few dozen old batteries to take to the
recyclers. But if anyone wants some, you can either pick them up or I
can ship them if you pay for the shipping (for the sealed ones).
In general, I know their histories and conditions. None are "bad"
(broken cases, shorted cells, etc.) or I would have recycled them
already. They are either below 50% amphour capacity or have too much
internal resistance to be useful for any high-current application. They
could be good candidates for testing miracle battery cures, dissection
to see what makes them "tick", or just to "tune" charging algorithms to
work with old batteries. Contact me directly if interested.
Here is a sample of what I have:
- Gates Cyclon 2v 2.5ah individual gel cells, >10 years old but still
at 0.5-1.5ah capacity
- Hawker G12V38Ah10C 12v 38ah AGM, 10 years old, 5-15ah capacity
- Hawker SBS60 12v 60ah AGM, 6 years old, 5-20ah capacity
- Optima D750 12v 55ah AGM, 5 years old, 10-20ah capacity
- Concorde GPC1295 12v 95ah AGM, 7 years old, high resistance
- Johnson Controls UPS12-270FR 12v 80ah AGM, 20-30ah capacity
- Eveready 24EV 12v 48ah flooded, 8 years old, 10-20ah capacity
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Grasser wrote:
> Well Lee, now I'll have to do some homework as I disagree with you
> on the design in of voltage drop, especially headlights. May be true
> in the states but just because "cheap" is the name of the game.
I was referring to the plain old tungsten "sealed beam" headlights in a
majority of US cars. Look up the specs; you'll find their rated voltage
is 12.4-12.8v, depending on part numbers.
The Europeans do indeed have higher standards. Also, more and more
high-end vehicles are coming with HID headlights which are a completely
different story.
> Too bad you didn't have the 14 volts to the headlights to begin with,
> you wouldn't have had to squint so much. :-)
Putting an actual 14v on a 12.5v sealed beam headlight will provide more
light; but also a 10:1 reduction in life!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ken,
Try it in neutral and different gears - see if it changes.
Pilot bearing?
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Ken Albright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I now have the 9" ADC motor installed in my Scirocco conversion. Without the
> drive axles attached, I spun the motor with a 12v battery. As it was getting
> up
> to speed (at about the 3/4 point) there was a fair amount of vibration. At
> full
> speed, for 12v, the vibration mostly went away. I don't know how to quantify
> the vibration other than to say it wasn't severe. At most the top of the
> bell
> housing was probably moving about 3/8 to 1/2 an inch.
>
> Is this something to worry about or is it to be expected?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Photos
> Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays,
> whatever.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Grasser wrote:
> European ECE standards prescribe a design voltage of 13.2 V for
> headlight lamps and 13.5 V for auxiliary lamps.
Except that many cars are refitted with US-standard headlights when
imported. See the following for specs on many US headlights (notice that
12.8v is the standard).
www.candlepowerinc.com/ pdfs/sealed.beam.product.index.pdf>
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:20 AM 21/01/06 -0500, Mike G wrote:
I think this is a pump motor. Notice only two wire connections. Be sure
the rotation is correct for your transmission.
At 09:53 PM 20/01/06 -0500, Darin wrote:
Can anyone tell me whether the motor(s) linked below would be suitable
for a budget Geo Metro
G'day Mike, Darin and all
Yes the internal spline implies a motor is probably a pump motor.
Yes, is two terminal - at the moment. It is no biggie to:
a) make it 4- terminal, and/or
b) reverse the direction of rotation (hardest bit with reversing is if the
brush end doesn't have bolt holes for the revere direction timing).
There is much more involved in getting around the internal spline shaft
than the direction issue. Whilst it is apart to sort out the internal
spline shaft issue, deal with the direction/terminal issue.
My (at the present time) favourite concept of dealing with an internal
splined shaft is to shorten the motor by removing the fan and making a new
end plate, with the bearing where the fan was. This needs an eternal blower
and vent holes through the end plate behind the flywheel (if used). I
haven't done this (my motor I am modifying to use had no fan, but I have
had a new end plate made). I have several motors that I could do this with,
and a motor that I bought cheap (damaged) that had its' output shaft
snapped off (along with other damage). I've pulled off the fan (was damaged
anyway) and it looks like the bearing diameter can be machined onto the fan
mounting spot with no problem - but this is a sample of one, other motors
may be more difficult.
To make the new end plate of my current conversion motor, I got a piece of
aluminium plate 5/8" thick, poked a hole in it with a holesaw big enough to
take the bearing mounting, got a piece of aluminium bar thick enough to
mount the bearing and circlips (size taken from old motor front) and had it
machined to go in the hole with a shoulder to align it and a vee on the
other side to get full-depth weld (MIG welded from both sides). The machine
shop then bored the bar part to take the bearing and circlips, and was then
able to turn the plate over and (true off the bearing hole) machine the
step for the front of the motor tube. If the pitch circle diameter of the
bell housing bolts are known, a small vee groove could be put into the
plate to simplify bolt-hole alignment. My donor engine had an oddity - the
motor side of the bell housing unbolted from the block - and carried the
rear main oil seal. So before the bearing hole was bored I bolted the motor
half of the bell housing to the plate, the machine shop trued the job in
their lathe to the oil seal, and bored the bearing hole true to the oil
seal hole (centerline of the gearbox input shaft). Then the rest of the
plate trued back to the bearing, so my adaptor plate was made true to the
bell housing, rather than truing the bell-housing mounting to the plate.
The machinist who did the job also builds race cars, and based on his
experience with those, put nine holes in the plate for the air outlets. I
assume nine to dissapate the stresses evenly around the plate. I asked him
and he responded that it was "just the right way to do it" and didn't know why.
I didn't intend making this post to be about my adaptor plate, it just went
that way...
Regards
James
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