EV Digest 5119
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: battery or dc-dc convertor for motorcycle
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Give Up on ElectraVan
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Who Killed Electric Car on Air America Radio NOW - Missed IT
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Motor Rebuild, Replace, or Give Up
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) new "This New Car" Radio Show now on-line
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) How to Convert - For fun and Profit - Without getting Sued
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Motor Rebuild, Replace, or Give Up
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: 200V+ Input DC/DC Converter
by MIKE & PAULA WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Charging without a ground? Any safe workaround.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Solectria Temp Sensor
by Randall Prentice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motor Rebuild, Replace, or Give Up
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: OT: Prius tires
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Where's the Charger Connect?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Where's the Charger Connect?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Motor Rebuild, Replace, or Give Up
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: How to Convert - For fun and Profit - Without getting Sued
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) budget EV insurance update
by Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Give Up on ElectraVan
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Subject: How to Convert - For fun and Profit - Without getting Sued
by kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Subject: How to Convert - For fun and Profit - Without getting Sued
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Subject: How to Convert - For fun and Profit - Without getting Sued
by MIKE & PAULA WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Give Up on ElectraVan
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I was perfectly happy with a separate accessory battery on my motorcycle for
a couple of years. I only switched over to a DC/DC when I upped my pack
voltage to a level right at the upper limit for my controller. When my bike
first comes off charge the pack is sitting at too high of voltage to turn
the controller on, so I turn on my headlight through the DC/DC to bleed the
surface voltage off my pack.
Either way will work fine. I used a 13ah Hawker which would run all my
lights much longer then my traction pack would run my motorcycle. My 12v
system is usually drawing between 5 - 7 amps.
Neither way will make any significant difference in your motorcyles
performance or range.
There was one night when I was very happy to have a spare battery for my
lights. A certain list member who shall remain anonymous forgot to leave a
charger out for me to use, so I was not able to make it all the way back
home. I made it as far as I could, then started walking my bike down the
shoulder of the freeway. I was happy that even though I had no traction
pack left, I still had nice bright lights.
damon
From: paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: battery or dc-dc convertor for motorcycle
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 12:00:55 -0800 (PST)
{snip}
You can also use a deep-cycle battery without any DC/DC (or alternator)
at all. It has to have enough capacity to handle your 12v loads by
itself. You recharge it when parked, along with the rest of your
batteries. Your lights will be a little dimmer and 12v motors will run a
little slower.
What do you guys think about this on an electric motorcycle? I have a
48v pack, and was thinking the weight of an 6 ah, 12vbattery is better than
the extra draw of the dc convertor on an already low voltage pack.
Am i off my rocker
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
Photo Books. You design it and well bind it!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I am pretty discouraged at the moment, so I am just talking. You may
wish to press the delete key now.
>From my earlier post, you may have seen that my Jet ElectraVan is down
again, this time in an expensive way. I have driven this car for 5
years and I doubt if I have ever been able to drive it more than a few
months before something disabled it. I suppose for a 1979 car that's to
be expected, but it's wearing me down.
One of the things that I am considering is passing this car along to
someone who might have the energy to keep the car on the road. The
problem is finding that person.
The ElectraVan is unique in that it is a collector car. That means that
it has value to an EV enthusiast as well as a special interest car
collector. That presents a complex problem of how I might sell the
car. An EV buyer may tire of the problems as I have and might junk what
otherwise would be a collector car. That would be a shame. A collector
car buyer is unlikely to drive the car. EVs are meant to be driven. I
would like to sell the car to someone who'll keep the car on the road,
and also respect the car as being a piece of automotive history.
It is likely that I can be easily fooled by selling to car to someone
who professes the intention to treat the car as I have, but then
immediately puts the car on ebay and turns a nice profit.
Ebay is the "great equalizer." Perhaps that's that path that I should
take, but somehow I'd rather pass the car along to someone in this
community, rather than make money.
I haven't decided to sell yet, but any thoughts about this would be
appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The interview was at the 2 hour 30 minute mark in a 3 hour show.
On Jan 23, 2006, at 9:39 AM, Steven Lough wrote:
Had a call from a friend who was listening. Unfortunately we were
watching the SeaHawks win their way into the Super Bowl...
I also thought it would be EASY to listen to an Archive recording
of the interview.
Any one KNOW their way round the Air America Site, who could help
find an archive version of the interview ???
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I have been driving my Jet ElectraVan for about 5 years. I was
surprised 3 years ago when I needed to replace the motor brushes. I am
more surprised that the new brushes only lasted 15,000 km. Now, there
is commutator damage.
So, I have been trying to figure out what to do next. The motor name
plate says:
GE Model 5BT1346B38 20.9 HP Series 90 volt, 184 Amp
GR8-87-CR 4707 RPM ENCL BV
CL.H Duty 1 HR 140 degrees C
Are there replacement motors available, and for about what cost?
I have not found a local rebuilder who is interested in looking at the
motor, and out-of-state rebuilders want to see the motor before quoting.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ANOTHER episode of "This New Car" is now on-line (MP3 recording) at
http://www.wicn.org/programs/thisnewcar/schedule.htm
Podcast/RSS support for "This New Car" is available on the same page.
The episodes are 30 minutes each and almost all meat, very little fat compared
to most talk shows. Listen and see if you agree.
The entire schedule of 13 weeks ...
Available ...
#1 Pros and Cons of Hybrid Vehicles
#2 Pros and Cons of Alternative-Energy Vehicles
#3 Hydrogen-combustion vehicles
Coming ...
#4 Fuel-cell vehicles
#5 Electric & plug-in vehicles
#6 New-technology vehicles
#7 What makes a hybrid a hybrid?
#8 Saving fuel with computers
#9 Detroit: Can the Motor City be hybrid-ized?
#10 "Green" vehicles: What are they and does the average consumer really care?
#11 What can we with the cars we're now driving to become cleaner?
#12 Is government doing enough to back "green" vehicles?
#13 Does everyone need to own a vehicle?
"This New Car", is a special 13-week edition of "The Business Beat", on
WICN/90.5 FM and at WICN.org in Worcester, MA, the National Public Radio
affiliate serving Central New England.
The experts for this lively, informative discussion on hybrid and
alternative-fuel vehicles are
Jim Dunn the NASA Center for Technology Commercialization
Gilles Labelle the Hybrid Center of Massachusetts at Westboro Toyota
Craig Van Batenburg the Automotive Career Development Center
all in Westboro Massachusetts.
"This New Car" is hosted by Steven Jones-D'Agostino of Best Rate Of Climb in
Worcester, MA, and sponsored exclusively by Westboro Toyota.
--
Mike Bianchi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sued, by a customer who plows into a school bus, injuring ( or worse)
the son or daughter of an influential lawyer...
( a Nightmare Scenario to be sure ) which any of us, all of us have
probably thought about from time to time.
It is almost (almost ) impossible to do a conversion, and not exceed
the GVWR ratings of the donor vehicle. I know you can... and many do
STAY within the GVW like Randy Holmquist, and Shari but (without
compromising performance/range) I know my VW Bug Based Manta ( Ion-1)
was certainly over weight for drum brakes... But for 11 years, I drove
the car within its limits... ( course when Li-Ion batteries become
affordable - with bat.management to go with ..this will all be moot )
I am bringing this subject up, because with rising gas prices...
interest from the lae public is rising. And my dream ( for the last 25
years) of some how eking out a living from promoting EVs keeps haunting
me. There are also Many Skilled people in and around our Seattle Club.
Some such as Dave Cloud, have put together over a dozen cars. Mostly
Geo Metros,
SO... Are there any Lawyers in our midst, who could discuss this
subject.
For Starters, I am assuming any "Waivers of Liability" would ultimately
be useless in a court of law.
But here is MY IDEA: ( kind of taken from the Kit - Air plane industry)
WHAT IF - this concern ( say a Catchey name like.. Eco-Motion Electric
Cars LLC ) RENTED shop space to the converter/owner, Consulted the Owner
on How best to convert his/her car, but did Minimal actual work, and in
the end, the Owner more or less built his/her Own EV Conversion.
Could then the "concern" be fairly well protected (insulated) from the
nightmare Scenario eluded to above ???
Hummm... I didn't think of this till now, but probably even a private
person could be in jeopardy, given the letigious nature of our society
these days....
I guess the thing to do is only to convert for very wealthy people
whereby, if something BAD were to happen, that the EV Cosulting company
would have very little assets to go after, ( that's for Sure !!) but the
owner/builder would have MUCH $$$
SO !! Lets Kick this arround for a day or so.....
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Mike
Motor shops are unable to give you a cost up front being the parts can be
quiet costly to repair. Smaller motors have a flat rate price just like when
you go into an auto store and buy an alternater. As the size goes up most
shops would rather not give you a flat rate price as you'd probably not be
happy about it, being they would have to make sure they get enough to replace
all the parts. If they can save the armature or coils it reflects the costs.
It they need rewound or replaced it can easily double even triple the cost
compared to a standard turn and undercut type of repair.
As to your brush wear it raises some flags as to what grade of brush you have
been using. Most of the older GE's run a carbony (is that a word) type brush
grade. All the EV motors I've seen run an H-100 graphite type. This could
cause the type of brush wear you have been seeing. You could have timing
issues, so I'll ask at what voltage you are using and whether the brush timing
has been advanced, have you noticed arcing. Be a shame to repair or replace
the motor and continue to have the same problems. Another though is that being
it has a OEM 90 volt rating you may not be feeding it enough volts causing the
motor to work hard which is causing this brush wear. Also how many miles were
put on it during that time frame.
Where are you located?
Sorry but I'm another who would have to see it to quoate it.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
"Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello,
I have been driving my Jet ElectraVan for about 5 years. I was
surprised 3 years ago when I needed to replace the motor brushes. I am
more surprised that the new brushes only lasted 15,000 km. Now, there
is commutator damage.
So, I have been trying to figure out what to do next. The motor name
plate says:
GE Model 5BT1346B38 20.9 HP Series 90 volt, 184 Amp
GR8-87-CR 4707 RPM ENCL BV
CL.H Duty 1 HR 140 degrees C
Are there replacement motors available, and for about what cost?
I have not found a local rebuilder who is interested in looking at the
motor, and out-of-state rebuilders want to see the motor before quoting.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos
Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can find a Tech Note on this thing here.
http://www.astecpower.com/reference/trn/AIF%20300V%20TRN%20REV01.pdf
I've got a request in to them for any App Notes they may have.
It looks like their Tech Notes are missing info they plan to put there in the
future.
I'm thinking this is in a recent or current development stage.
Still, I'm going to request a sample from them for evaluation.
Mike.
*************************************************************************
>Are you referring to mechanically or electrically isolating the case?
>I'm curious about whether the output is isolated from the input. If they
>can be connected in parallel (I'm assuming this means parallel inputs as
>well as outputs, to add power), does this imply that they have an isolated
>output that would be appropriate for use with an Emeter?
>--chris
On 8:20:38 am 01/23/06 Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Isolating these should be fairly easy since they are so small.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark,
Just install a GFCI (ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle) on your
existing two wire receptacle circuit. This is allow according the NEC
(National Electric Code).
The NEC Article 210-7(d),(3),(b) states:
A nongrounding-type receptacle shall be permitted to be replaced with a
ground-fault circuit interrupter type of receptacle. These receptacles shall
be marked "No Equipment Ground." An equipment grounding conductor shall not be
connected from the ground-fault circuit interrupter-type receptacle to any
outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit interrupter receptacle.
In a older house that still has a two wire system with non-grounding
receptacles. We will replace the first receptacle that comes from the circuit
breaker panel, with a GFCI receptacle with a plate that is mark "No Equipment
Ground".
The rest of the non-grounding receptacles that are supplied through the GFCI
receptacle shall be replace with Grounding-type receptacles and shall be marked
"GFCI Protected" and "No Equipment Ground." An equipment grounding conductor
shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.
If a GFCI reads a un-balanced between the two current carrying lines which is
cause by either line, Line 1 (hot) or Neutral (white) cause by a user touching
these conductors or if one of the conductors fines a earth ground path.
The grounding conductor (green) makes a better ground source for the equipment
where the GFCI will act faster than if the equipment frame has a higher
resistance to a ground source threw some other path.
The only thing you cannot do, is to test the GFCI by pressing the RED test
button. This connects a small circuit across the Line 1 and Neutral and then
shorts the Neutral to the ground wire (green) which would not be present in
this type of hookup.
It would be best to Print out the above NEC Article and take it to your Local
Electrical Inspector Office. Some cities may not approved this type of
installation. I show this Article some time back to a inspector who never came
across it until I show it to him.
Many times when a person sells there old house that still have non-grounding
receptacles, the realtor wants you to up-grade all the electrical wiring to a
3-wire instead of the 2-wire. You do not have to. Just install the GFCI and
grounding type receptacles on the existing 2-wire system as it is outline in
the NEC.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Hastings<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:30 AM
Subject: Charging without a ground? Any safe workaround.
I am moving this week into a place without any grounding much like where I
grew up. My charger specifically connects ground to the car but if I have no
ground at the plug I am kind of defeating it am I not?
I can only think of two options.
Isolation transformer
Ground the outlet(s) which is a long term goal.
Are there any other practical ones I am missing? I am using a new Russco
120 volt charger.
Thanks,
Mark Hastings
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A lot of early stuff used a transistor and measured the voltage across the
Base-Emitter junction.
This is the same for most cheap transistors, thou often they would only run
two leads and not connect the emitter at all.
In case this helps.
Regards
Randall Prentice
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Chancey
> Sent: Monday, 23 January 2006 9:13 a.m.
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Solectria Temp Sensor
>
>
> Hi folks,
>
> Please bear with me here, electronics is not my area so I probably
> sound about half a bubble off center.
>
> I have an old Solectria BC1000 charger, setup for a 156 Volt Force
> that I would like to use on my Civic conversion as an opportunity
> charger. I tested it in my Force before I sold it, so it does
> work. The problem is, it won't work without a temp sensor and I have
> no info on the sensor. I have emailed Solectria but received no
> response. The new owner of my Force did probe the connector at the
> charger and was able to determine the resistance between the three
> wires. The batteries were probably somewhere around 68 degrees F
> and he found from the black wire to the green was 65.8 K Ohm, from
> black to red was 53.1 M Ohm, and from green to red 5.41 M Ohm. Is it
> possible to identify a compatible sensor based on this info? If not
> a sensor, can I make up a jumper to fool it into working? The point
> is to just get the think working well enough to give me a lightweight
> 120 VAC charger on the Civic that won't trip a breaker and won't fry
> the batteries. Currently I am using a home built setup based on the
> guts of a "Fair Radio" charger with a 24 Volt transformer added and a
> 12 hour fan timer for control. The whole think is probably 80 pounds
> and is not efficient nor does it bring the pack to full charge.
>
> Another chapter member has a similar charger, from an older 144 Volt
> Force. He would like to try to use it as an opportunity charger on
> his 120 Volt pickup conversion. If the temp sensor issue can be
> solved, is it possible to reduce the output voltage from 144 to 120
> by using a series of diodes in the output?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim,
Thanks for your reply.
Answers first. I don't know about the brush material. The first set of
brushes, like the second, lasted only 15,000 km., and were almost for
sure original from Jet Industries. The second set came from Fewkes, a
motor shop in New Jersey, and they knew exactly what the application
was. The brush timing is also original. The pack is 102 volts. I am
in Phoenix, AZ.
In making a decision about what I should do, I was hoping for a maximum
rebuild price, or the possibility of a rebuilt motor being available.
If I knew worst case was $1500, then I could figure perhaps $750 as a
most likely, but know that it couldn't get worse than the $1500.
Thanks for your comments,
Mike
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Motor Rebuild, Replace, or Give Up
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:41:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Hey Mike
Motor shops are unable to give you a cost up front being the parts can
be quiet costly to repair. Smaller motors have a flat rate price just
like when you go into an auto store and buy an alternater. As the size
goes up most shops would rather not give you a flat rate price as you'd
probably not be happy about it, being they would have to make sure they
get enough to replace all the parts. If they can save the armature or
coils it reflects the costs. It they need rewound or replaced it can
easily double even triple the cost compared to a standard turn and
undercut type of repair.
As to your brush wear it raises some flags as to what grade of brush
you have been using. Most of the older GE's run a carbony (is that a
word) type brush grade. All the EV motors I've seen run an H-100
graphite type. This could cause the type of brush wear you have been
seeing. You could have timing issues, so I'll ask at what voltage you
are using and whether the brush timing has been advanced, have you
noticed arcing. Be a shame to repair or replace the motor and continue
to have the same problems. Another though is that being it has a OEM 90
volt rating you may not be feeding it enough volts causing the motor to
work hard which is causing this brush wear. Also how many miles were
put on it during that time frame.
Where are you located?
Sorry but I'm another who would have to see it to quoate it.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
"Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello,
I have been driving my Jet ElectraVan for about 5 years. I was
surprised 3 years ago when I needed to replace the motor brushes. I am
more surprised that the new brushes only lasted 15,000 km. Now, there
is commutator damage.
So, I have been trying to figure out what to do next. The motor name
plate says:
GE Model 5BT1346B38 20.9 HP Series 90 volt, 184 Amp
GR8-87-CR 4707 RPM ENCL BV
CL.H Duty 1 HR 140 degrees C
Are there replacement motors available, and for about what cost?
I have not found a local rebuilder who is interested in looking at the
motor, and out-of-state rebuilders want to see the motor before quoting.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos
Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your
hands ASAP.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. wrote:
>What is recommended?
> 175/65R14
33 tires listed in that size. Nothing in particular jumped out at
me.. Might read some reviews on various tires. Certain tires get rave
reviews. Other are nothing but complaints of tires being noisy, only
lasting 10,000 miles, or having no traction, etc..
http://www.tirerack.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> If the switches of all 4 breakers are mechanically tied together,
> and one of the breakers trips, does it have the strength to pull
> all 4 switches at the same time?
Yes, at least they do for normal breakers. To be sure, you can contact
the maker of your circuit breakers and ask their applications engineer.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
>
Lee Hart wrote:
>> use a smaller switch or relay to connect the precharge
>> resistor(s) across the contactors only when the charger
>> is disconnected
> Does "disconnected" mean unplugged from the AC outlet, or physically
> disconnected from the battery packs as well?
It means there is no electrical connection between the AC line and the
pack. This could be a physical switch, circuit breaker, or relay that is
turned off, or a physical connector being unplugged. It needs to break
BOTH sides of the AC line if you have a non-isolated charger.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Mike
Okay so you are only at 102 so you could be asking a motor to do two to three
times its OEM load and only feeding 1.1 so to speak (whats it driving). I'm
not saying this is the cause but it could be. Did the brushes look black or
grey? Also you said the comm is damaged is it bad or maybe just scortched??
Take some pics if you can and send them direct or post to a page, I'd like to
take a look at what you got going on down there. This should be a bigger
motor, but an ADC 9 or Warp 9 don't go for much higher than your high end
costs. You might have more motor than you can feed. How did it perform for
you, did you like it?? BTW if everthing isn't toast your midrange figuer would
probably fall about right. Just be nice to weigh like you stated whether a
different motor would work better for your needs.
Feel free to call me if you'd like, I'd really like to see some pics
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
541-548-6140
"Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jim,
Thanks for your reply.
Answers first. I don't know about the brush material. The first set of
brushes, like the second, lasted only 15,000 km., and were almost for
sure original from Jet Industries. The second set came from Fewkes, a
motor shop in New Jersey, and they knew exactly what the application
was. The brush timing is also original. The pack is 102 volts. I am
in Phoenix, AZ.
In making a decision about what I should do, I was hoping for a maximum
rebuild price, or the possibility of a rebuilt motor being available.
If I knew worst case was $1500, then I could figure perhaps $750 as a
most likely, but know that it couldn't get worse than the $1500.
Thanks for your comments,
Mike
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Motor Rebuild, Replace, or Give Up
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:41:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Husted
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Hey Mike
Motor shops are unable to give you a cost up front being the parts can
be quiet costly to repair. Smaller motors have a flat rate price just
like when you go into an auto store and buy an alternater. As the size
goes up most shops would rather not give you a flat rate price as you'd
probably not be happy about it, being they would have to make sure they
get enough to replace all the parts. If they can save the armature or
coils it reflects the costs. It they need rewound or replaced it can
easily double even triple the cost compared to a standard turn and
undercut type of repair.
As to your brush wear it raises some flags as to what grade of brush
you have been using. Most of the older GE's run a carbony (is that a
word) type brush grade. All the EV motors I've seen run an H-100
graphite type. This could cause the type of brush wear you have been
seeing. You could have timing issues, so I'll ask at what voltage you
are using and whether the brush timing has been advanced, have you
noticed arcing. Be a shame to repair or replace the motor and continue
to have the same problems. Another though is that being it has a OEM 90
volt rating you may not be feeding it enough volts causing the motor to
work hard which is causing this brush wear. Also how many miles were
put on it during that time frame.
Where are you located?
Sorry but I'm another who would have to see it to quoate it.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
"Michael A. Radtke" wrote:
Hello,
I have been driving my Jet ElectraVan for about 5 years. I was
surprised 3 years ago when I needed to replace the motor brushes. I am
more surprised that the new brushes only lasted 15,000 km. Now, there
is commutator damage.
So, I have been trying to figure out what to do next. The motor name
plate says:
GE Model 5BT1346B38 20.9 HP Series 90 volt, 184 Amp
GR8-87-CR 4707 RPM ENCL BV
CL.H Duty 1 HR 140 degrees C
Are there replacement motors available, and for about what cost?
I have not found a local rebuilder who is interested in looking at the
motor, and out-of-state rebuilders want to see the motor before quoting.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steven Lough wrote:
> Sued, by a customer who plows into a school bus, injuring ( or worse)
> the son or daughter of an influential lawyer... So! Let's kick this
> around for a day or so...
Before we get overly worried about being sued by someone for a shoddy EV
conversion... We have over 1000 EVers reading this list. Has anyone ever
been sued for anything related to their EVs? In over 30 years, I can't
think of any lawsuits involving any defendants except huge corporations.
My guess is that the risk of a lawsuit is infinitestimal.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After striking out twice last week trying to obtain only liability
insurance on a "non-professional" (hobbyist) EV conversion with through
my broker and a second insurance company, I received several suggestions
from list members that I simply try an insurer used by other EV owners.
I did so this morning, and was successful (was quoted a 3rd party
liability rate comparable to my ICE vehicle).
The insurance company's initial concern was the same: i.e. who is doing
the conversion?
My partner in this project is an industrial electrician, and those words
seemed to satisfy their concern (after a moderately suspenseful "please
hold while I check with my manager"). This information had been
unacceptable to the companies I tried last week.
Their only (reasonable) request was that they may ask for a
post-conversion inspection of the vehicle by a professional mechanic of
their choosing in my area.
For the record (and the archive), I'm in Ontario, and the obliging
insurance company is Melloche Monnex.
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael A. Radtke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> From my earlier post, you may have seen that my Jet
> ElectraVan is down again, this time in an expensive way.
Sorry to hear of your EV problems, however, for what it is worth, I
think that there is something wrong with your particular sample. That
is, other people with the GE motors have/are enjoying much better
reliability and brush life than yours has demonstrated. This motor is
plenty big for the application and I seriously doubt that there is any
problem at all with the votlage you are feeding it since others have
happily run these motors anywhere from 96V to 120V (and likely well
beyond in racing).
I would lean toward suspecting the motor controller possibly subjecting
the motor large amount of ripple current, which might accelerate the
brush and comm wear (think of it being something like continuously
switching the motor between full off and full on, so that instead of a
fairly even modest average current it sees a few to several hundred amps
for a short time, then nothing, then a few hundred amps, etc. This
thought is based on my assumption that you are still running the
original SCR controller.
It might be that something is not quite right with your controller, or
it might just be a fact of life with this controller and such a
(relatively) small inductance motor.
Due to the collector nature of the vehicle, you may be reluctant to
change anything from stock. If so, then your only option would seem to
be trying to determine if there is something amiss with the controller
and getting it corrected so your next set of brushes and comm last
longer.
If you are willing to modify the car you have a few options. Money
being no object, replace the SCR controller with a Z1k and enjoy all the
performance your EV is capable of (more than you ever thought it had
;^). If that is too much of a stretch, replace the SCR controller with
a Curtis 1231C; performance will remain similar to the original, but you
should have better (possibly much better) range. Finally, if even that
is too much, you could try to verify the SCR controller is working
properly, then add a large inductor in series with the motor. David
Chapman (also in your area) is a good source for such inductors
(surplus/takeout 'reactors' from the output side of large welders). If
the large ripple current is stressing your motor, the addition of the
inductor will help smooth it and should reduce the stress on the motor.
Perhaps Jim Husted can offer some thoughts on possible failures/defects
that your motor might have that could reduce its inductance or make it
eat brushes unusually quickly? My thinking is that while the motor
might have accidentally been fitted with the wrong brush material in the
first place, or you might have been given the wrong material when
replacing them, it seems unlikely that you would get the same low life
in both cases. For instance, do you hear any sort of roughness when the
motor spins? A raised comm bar early in the motor's life might cause it
to eat brushes quickly; if this condition went undetected when you
replaced the brushes, they would also wear prematurely. The good news
is that since you rcomm is now damaged, if a raised bar were the
problem, it will be corrected when the motor is repaired. How about a
short between a field winding and the motor case, or just a short
between turns of a field winding? If this results in a decrease in
motor inductance, then your motor will experience more extreme ripple
current than otherwise identical motor/controller pairs. I'm sure Jim
can come up with more possibilities.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, let me frame this so the answer is pretty easy to understand. Let's say
there's a guy, call him Jim. Jim is in his 30's with a wife and three
kids. It took him a while, but he's finished paying off his college loans, and
Jim is now starting to make some good money. Last year the family
bought a nice house, with a picket fence and a big mortgage, but they can
afford it becaue Jim just got promoted and he's now making six
figures. Mom stays home with the baby while the older two are in school. The
kids are bright - they really should start saving for college, too.
But one day Jim's crossing the street, and Kluge comes barreling down the road
in his overweight '72 Courier, and the brakes fail, because
Kluge was on his third Coors light when he bled the brakes and he forgot to
tighten down the bleed valve, or maybe just becuse the truck's
maxed out on its GVW and there's no engine braking with a series motor, so the
brakes have been working over their designed limits and
they've overheated. Anyway, like the man says, sometimes you're the
windshield, sometimes your the bug. This time Jim is the bug - and he's
DOA.
Let's assume Kluge has $100,000 worth of auto insurance. That will replace
less than a year of Jim's salary, and then Jim's family is SOL. Bye
bye house. Bye bye college. Hello latchkey kids 'cause Mom's back to working
full time now. OK, that's not right. Kluge doesn't have a lot of
assets, but he's got some. So, who should get the benefit of those assets?
Jim's family, who did nothing to be responsible for the fix they find
themselves in? Or Kluge, who didn't actually mean any harm? Lee is right -
lawsuits are actually pretty rare, because usually there's not
enough at stake to justify a lawsuit, despite all the propaganda you hear about
"frivolous litigation." But what's actually going to be a problem
for anyone producing consumer operated products is the serious litigation which
arises when there is a big loss to a family, like my Jim
scenario. And I'm sorry, I don't have an answer to that one. Personally, I
have a lot of auto (and other) insurance, and I try to be
responsible so I won't hurt anyone. But the reality exists that I could cause
a loss to someone else that is greater than my insurance can
compensate. Then I'd be faced with the dilemma I've outlined above. And in
that scenario, I have a feeling that Jim's widow and Kluge's wife
will disagree over who is more entitled to Kluge's money. So Kluge is going
to get sued.
The kitplane model doesn't really work for a couple of reasons - first, usually
the only person who get's hurt if a kitplane fails is the pilot, who is
usually the guy who built it, or else someone who bought it directly from the
builder and is required to be rigorously trained and qualified to
operate it. On the other hand, everyone thinks they can drive a car, and is
licensed to do so, unlike pilots. And when your brother-in-law Looie
jumps in your Electroflash 200 to run to the store to get ice cream for your
wife he's going to be in a great position to do serious damage to
innocent bystanders - like the Jims of the world.
Bottom line: You do your best, and cross your fingers. There are no
guarantees in the world. If you want to wait until you're 100% safe from
being in the situation of my Jim hypothetical, well - there's complete security
in the grave.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
kluge [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Bottom line: You do your best, and cross your fingers.
> There are no guarantees in the world. If you want to wait
> until you're 100% safe from being in the situation of my
> Jim hypothetical, well - there's complete security in the
> grave.
I think the issue for someone doing conversions as a business is that
the more sucessful they are (i.e. the more conversions they perform),
the greater the likelihood of this sort of scenario occuring with one of
the vehicles they've converted.
You or I may only convert one or two cars in our life, or only ever have
a single conversion driveable at any time, so our odds of being involved
in such a scenario are small. However, if you or I start a business and
turn out 100 conversions, we are now 100 times more likely than the
average hobbiest to be involved in such a scenario simply because at any
time there might be 100 conversions we are responsible for on the road
each with the same likelihood of being involved in such a scenario.
Businesses that produce products typically carry liability insurance to
protect them in the event of someone suffering a loss due to the use of
the product; I suspect the cost of such insurance would be prohibitive
for a small conversion business, however, it seems like the way one
would cover their assets. I wonder how other types of businesses that
perform modifications to [ICE] vehicles protect themselves? Presumably
similar protection would be sufficient for EV conversion businesses...
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From: kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:51 pm
>Subject: Subject: How to Convert - For fun and Profit - Without getting Sued
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Send Email
>... his overweight '72 Courier, and the brakes fail, because
>Kluge was on his third Coors light when he bled the brakes and he forgot to
>tighten down the bleed valve, ...
This could happen to anyone who drinks beer and bleeds break lines. If the
crash happens due to negligence it doesn't matter if its an EV or a '72 Courier
gasser with 96 cases of coors light in the bed (1728 lbs if they are 12
oz.'rs). I think the point is that if you are going to convert cars for a
living (or extra cash on the side) as long as you perform due diligence to
ensure everything is safe then you will probably not be held any more liable
than if the accident happened to a normally operating gasser, as long as the
beer was strapped down properly. It wouldn't take much time to look up the
manufacturer specs on the donor, do the math to see if you exceed them, and to
spec bigger rotors, pads, tires, axles etc. With a small business it would be
unreasonable to crash test 1 % of your production line, nor should have to. I
like to think that long as you do your Due Diligence in design and
implementation, your risk is no more than with anything you would produce and
sell. As you may know anything can bring about litigation. Look closely at
the way the laws are written in your state. I would guess that people who get
hammered on damage cases do so because they did not show some type of due
dilligence or exhibited gross neglegence. As long as you have some form of
analysis to show that upgraded brakes were not required, then you have a much
better chance of avoiding the poor house, even if your analysis was slightly
flawed. Unless there are laws that state explicitely that you must do a
specific thing, or have a certain certified engineering design to ensure safety
when performing the conversion, then showing some forethought in analysis
should go a long way to helping your case.
I say all this not knowing the actual requirements big auto must have to go
through to get a car on the road.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This may be too obvious, but I thought I would mention
it.
The GE motor you have is the one given to many high
schools
and colleges when I worked at GE back in the early to
mid 90's.
The Honda civic had a transmission that turned the
opposite direction of that intended. This caused lots
of arcing and sparcing not to mention less efficient
opperation. Since the brushes are advanced for one
direction of rotation I wonder if your vehicle is
turning in the opposite. Sorry I can't find the
proper rotation, but I think it can be found in the
archives.
Rod
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Michael A. Radtke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > From my earlier post, you may have seen that my
> Jet
> > ElectraVan is down again, this time in an
> expensive way.
>
> Sorry to hear of your EV problems, however, for what
> it is worth, I
> think that there is something wrong with your
> particular sample. That
> is, other people with the GE motors have/are
> enjoying much better
> reliability and brush life than yours has
> demonstrated. This motor is
> plenty big for the application and I seriously doubt
> that there is any
> problem at all with the votlage you are feeding it
> since others have
> happily run these motors anywhere from 96V to 120V
> (and likely well
> beyond in racing).
>
> I would lean toward suspecting the motor controller
> possibly subjecting
> the motor large amount of ripple current, which
> might accelerate the
> brush and comm wear (think of it being something
> like continuously
> switching the motor between full off and full on, so
> that instead of a
> fairly even modest average current it sees a few to
> several hundred amps
> for a short time, then nothing, then a few hundred
> amps, etc. This
> thought is based on my assumption that you are still
> running the
> original SCR controller.
>
> It might be that something is not quite right with
> your controller, or
> it might just be a fact of life with this controller
> and such a
> (relatively) small inductance motor.
>
> Due to the collector nature of the vehicle, you may
> be reluctant to
> change anything from stock. If so, then your only
> option would seem to
> be trying to determine if there is something amiss
> with the controller
> and getting it corrected so your next set of brushes
> and comm last
> longer.
>
> If you are willing to modify the car you have a few
> options. Money
> being no object, replace the SCR controller with a
> Z1k and enjoy all the
> performance your EV is capable of (more than you
> ever thought it had
> ;^). If that is too much of a stretch, replace the
> SCR controller with
> a Curtis 1231C; performance will remain similar to
> the original, but you
> should have better (possibly much better) range.
> Finally, if even that
> is too much, you could try to verify the SCR
> controller is working
> properly, then add a large inductor in series with
> the motor. David
> Chapman (also in your area) is a good source for
> such inductors
> (surplus/takeout 'reactors' from the output side of
> large welders). If
> the large ripple current is stressing your motor,
> the addition of the
> inductor will help smooth it and should reduce the
> stress on the motor.
>
> Perhaps Jim Husted can offer some thoughts on
> possible failures/defects
> that your motor might have that could reduce its
> inductance or make it
> eat brushes unusually quickly? My thinking is that
> while the motor
> might have accidentally been fitted with the wrong
> brush material in the
> first place, or you might have been given the wrong
> material when
> replacing them, it seems unlikely that you would get
> the same low life
> in both cases. For instance, do you hear any sort
> of roughness when the
> motor spins? A raised comm bar early in the motor's
> life might cause it
> to eat brushes quickly; if this condition went
> undetected when you
> replaced the brushes, they would also wear
> prematurely. The good news
> is that since you rcomm is now damaged, if a raised
> bar were the
> problem, it will be corrected when the motor is
> repaired. How about a
> short between a field winding and the motor case, or
> just a short
> between turns of a field winding? If this results
> in a decrease in
> motor inductance, then your motor will experience
> more extreme ripple
> current than otherwise identical motor/controller
> pairs. I'm sure Jim
> can come up with more possibilities.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--- End Message ---
