EV Digest 5121
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: budget EV insurance update
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Votes - how are we doin' ?
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Yet another conversion and another question
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Whooie, elec does it again!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Anticipation
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: How to Convert - For fun and Profit - Without getting Sued
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Motor Rebuild, Replace, or Give Up
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Awards, times and speeds for Battery Beach Burnout
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Whooie, elec does it again!
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: budget EV insurance update
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motor Rebuild, Replace, or Give Up
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: budget EV insurance update
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Give Up on ElectraVan
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, and its is only on the liability part. You will have to ask the insurance
companies if they do. Some will not do it in certain states. I was surprise
myself, when I call up my insurance company, to see if the liability will cover
rental cars I drive.
They said yes, they said the liability is on the driver no matter what car you
drive, they said, just carry your insurance card with you when you change cars.
To test this out, go to a rental car company and see if your liability will
cover that car in that state. If it does, than you still contact your insurance
company to see if they do.
Then I contact my credit card company, The Discover Card to tell them where I
will be going and how long I will be at each place. They trace your travel to
see if you are on the right path. If for some reason your credit card is
another location not in the area you will be, or your purchases does not match
the normal purchases you make. Then the card has a stop payment on it.
I requested this service, but one time I forgot to phone in or Email them, and
they put a stop payment on it when the card had a purchase 1000 miles away the
next day.
They also insure the rental car for up to $25,000.00 for any damage to the
vehicle cause by the user at no extra cost.
Roland
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: mike golub<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 3:21 AM
Subject: Re: budget EV insurance update
Help me here. You mean I can just have a policy on one
car, and I'm covered whatever I drive?
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Hello Darin,
> >
> > I am going to give you some information that a lot
> of vehicle
> > insurance companies don't want you to know.
> >
> > Liability insurance is on the person, not the
> vehicle. The person is
> > liable, not the vehicle. It does not make any
> difference if the
> > vehicle is worth $10,000.00 or $1,000,000.00.
> Both of the vehicles
> > will do about the same amount of damage. The
> $10,000.00 vehicle may
> > do more damage.
>
> Roland, thanks for the info.
> This type of insurance is known for dealerships
> where they may have many
> hundreds of cars ready to be taken for a test drive
> and do the damage.
> No way they insure every single one, it is one
> insurance per dealership,
> (similar to one for you as person, no matter how
> many cars you have).
>
> I wonder, how do you prove to Hartford that while
> you drive one on your
> cars at the time your girlfriend (or whoever) does
> not drive another?
> Do they just trust you, or they won't pay anything
> if your car happen to
> be driven by somebody?
>
> Victor
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com<http://mail.yahoo.com/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This may indeed change some minds ... we may convince this site's
viewers that electric vehicle fans are obnoxious :o)
Still, if a successful run up the list means there's a chance in hell
that I get to see the Killacycle on the strip again, well heck yeah I'm
clickin'.
--chris
On Tue, 2006-01-24 at 06:03 -0800, Rod Hower wrote:
> I just noticed Bill Dube's Killa cycle "click 4 times
> now"
> http://www.dragtimes.com/Dragster-Motorcycle-Timeslip-7621.html
>
> >
> http://www.dragtimes.com/Mazda-RX-7-Timeslip-7519.html
> >
> http://www.dragtimes.com/Datsun-1200-Timeslip-7484.html
> >
> http://www.dragtimes.com/Nissan-240SX-Timeslip-7382.html
> >
> > Congrats to all,
> >
> > Victor
> >
> > --
> > '91 ACRX - something different
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you could get 12 batteries in that beast you could use a 72v Altrax. If
not I'd go with 4 of the biggest Golf cart style batteries I could find and
use your forklift components. That box in the back makes a big pack
possible. If you can get 9 batteries back there and 3 where the motor was
you will have impressive power & range. Pictures of the differential would
be helpful. Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:05 PM
Subject: Yet another conversion and another question
Hi all,
Coming up out of lurk mode to bring up another question.
I am doing a conversion on a 58 Harley and am keeping it somewhat
documented
at www.indele.com/page6.html for any that might be interested.
I have been planning on using the parts out of a pallet picker that had a
GE
EV-1 control. In looking at the relays today, their coils are marked as
24V
int and 18V con. Which I take to mean that they are only designed for 18
volts continuously on the coil. Is there a simple way to get them to
operate off of the 24V traction pack that I intend to have on the bike
other
than multiple diodes to get the voltage drop? Seems like dropping 6 volts
with diodes would be cumbersome. The coils are molded so I don't know how
hard it would be to wind or replace them.
My controller is a SRE PC325 which is 24-48 volt rated and it requires a
24V
control signal so my key switch etc. will be running a 24V circuit and am
planning on using 24V lights as well on the bike.
The other ideas I have had is to add a small control relay to switch a
portion of the traction pack voltage to the power relay or use a three
terminal voltage regulator. I may need to do this if the future brings a
higher voltage traction pack.
Thanks for any ideas or input.
John
John Neiswanger
Northern Calif.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Rush wrote:
This was sent to me by someone. A Porche Carrera GT getting zapped by an elec
car....
http://www.ptreyeslight.com/stories/jan19_06/electriccar.html
and here is the manufacturer http://www.energynext.org/
I love EVs....I love quick and fast EVs, however, to call the Wright
Speed a 'car' is really a stretch. Showing this rolling tube chassis
beating expensive exotica seems silly. This thing doesn't have a roof,
or doors or any real body to speak of. It's a rolling tube skeleton
being tauted as a 'car'...give me a break! It's another one of AC
Propulsion's tricks of using something that barely passes as a car, then
pitting it against real cars.
>Fantastic!!!!!
I'd characterize it as disappointing and darn close to a smoke and
mirrors exercise.
From Mike and Paula:
Maybe we need to put together a film about real life electrics. I mean ones
that get driven every day and ones that people can afford to own...No doubt the flash of
the X1 will open eyes, but the real life cars will convince them.
Couldn't agree more with you on this!
From David Roden:
If you check the links, this makes sense. A very light racing vehicle with
an AC Propulsion T-zero-type power train is racing portly street-legal sports
cars, so of course it has the advantage.
More common sense from David:
According to both websites cited, the car has achieved a quarter mile time
of 11.95 seconds. I don't know whether that's official, and I don't follow
EV drag racing that closely, but it seems to me that somebody on this list
has run low in the 11s with a more or less street legal EV setup. Yes? No?
And hasn't Dennis Berube run in the 10s? Or is my memory playing tricks on
me?
I agree with David. Why not do the 'right thing' (pun intended) and
build a real car, you know, one with a full body and interior
appointments, with a real roof, and real doors, then install the miracle
AC power trains and 'then' match it up to the same exotica cars?
Answer? It would get its newfound doors sucked off, that's why! The best
1/4 mile ET they publish is 11.95 seconds, about 2/10's a second quicker
than my all steel bodied door slammer running on non-exotic lead acid
batteries and cave man DC....this year, we'll be quicker than their
skeloton car. Rod Wilde's all street bodied Maniac Mazda with its world
record 11.2 second 1/4 mile ET, while partially gutted and running in
the Modified Conversion class of NEDRA's divisions, is still a real car
and would blow the X1's doors off...oops, sorry, it doesn't even have
doors to get blown off! Dennis Berube's rail has run way quicker than a
10 second run....how's an 8.8 second ET hit you? Of course, Dennis'
machine is a pure race vehicle, so the comparison is mute...or is it? In
some ways, Dennis' rail is more of a real car, than the X1 is! At least
the Current Eliminator has bodywork!
I find the AC Propulsion tactics tiring. First, the tZero, a fiberglass
kit car that's barely passable as a real car gets compared to other full
bodied machines, now there's a rolling tube frame being touted as a
'car'. Come on guys, how about making a real car with a nice advanced
battery pack and AC drive, that runs mid 13's, gives 100+ miles range,
and actually has a roof and doors? I for one know they could do this and
would be soundly impressed by such a 'car'.
See Ya...John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
By my estimation, "Who Killed..." was shown to the public
for the first time just as I was dozing off last night....
(8:30 in Utah?)
and no-one has given a review on the list yet!
I can't take it!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Won't work.
Aside from the fact that most Americans are too lazy to build their own
car, in our litigious society there is NO WAY to protect yourself from
being sued.
You provided "advice"? Oh, so it's YOUR fault he choose to...
You sold him the batteries/motor/flux capacitor? Oh so it's YOUR fault...
I mean, we live in a country where a burglar can break a window on your
house in order to gain illegal entry, cut himself on the broken glass and
then sue YOU for having such a dangerous situation...and win. Don't
laugh, it's happened.
Your best bet is to form a corporation, to shield your personal assets
from law suits, and buy insurance.
> Sued, by a customer who plows into a school bus, injuring ( or worse)
> the son or daughter of an influential lawyer...
> ( a Nightmare Scenario to be sure ) which any of us, all of us have
> probably thought about from time to time.
>
> It is almost (almost ) impossible to do a conversion, and not exceed
> the GVWR ratings of the donor vehicle. I know you can... and many do
> STAY within the GVW like Randy Holmquist, and Shari but (without
> compromising performance/range) I know my VW Bug Based Manta ( Ion-1)
> was certainly over weight for drum brakes... But for 11 years, I drove
> the car within its limits... ( course when Li-Ion batteries become
> affordable - with bat.management to go with ..this will all be moot )
>
> I am bringing this subject up, because with rising gas prices...
> interest from the lae public is rising. And my dream ( for the last 25
> years) of some how eking out a living from promoting EVs keeps haunting
> me. There are also Many Skilled people in and around our Seattle Club.
> Some such as Dave Cloud, have put together over a dozen cars. Mostly
> Geo Metros,
>
> SO... Are there any Lawyers in our midst, who could discuss this
> subject.
>
> For Starters, I am assuming any "Waivers of Liability" would ultimately
> be useless in a court of law.
>
> But here is MY IDEA: ( kind of taken from the Kit - Air plane industry)
>
> WHAT IF - this concern ( say a Catchey name like.. Eco-Motion Electric
> Cars LLC ) RENTED shop space to the converter/owner, Consulted the Owner
> on How best to convert his/her car, but did Minimal actual work, and in
> the end, the Owner more or less built his/her Own EV Conversion.
> Could then the "concern" be fairly well protected (insulated) from the
> nightmare Scenario eluded to above ???
>
> Hummm... I didn't think of this till now, but probably even a private
> person could be in jeopardy, given the letigious nature of our society
> these days....
>
> I guess the thing to do is only to convert for very wealthy people
> whereby, if something BAD were to happen, that the EV Cosulting company
> would have very little assets to go after, ( that's for Sure !!) but the
> owner/builder would have MUCH $$$
>
> SO !! Lets Kick this arround for a day or so.....
>
>
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim,
The brushes look black. They are worn to the rivets.
The rivets and arcing caused the damage to the commutator. One of the
brush holders shows some damage as well, but it probably can be
salvaged.
I can't take decent pictures at this time since the motor is still in
the car, with poor visibility. It will be weeks or months until I can
find the time to pull it if I decide to continue this adventure.
The performance is leisurely. More can't be expected since the car
retains the clutch from the intended ICE. It was tiny. So, it's easy
to cause clutch slip.
I don't think that I'd consider a different motor because the current
one physically fits. A replacement would require modifications.
Removing the motor is annoying because I need to remove the transmission
as well for clearance. If I'm going to give up, I'd rather do it now
than after I spend a lot more time on the car. That's why I was trying
to get some ball park estimate of the cost to get the car back on the
road.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Mike
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Motor Rebuild, Replace, or Give Up
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:38:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Hey Mike
Okay so you are only at 102 so you could be asking a motor to do two
to three times its OEM load and only feeding 1.1 so to speak (whats it
driving). I'm not saying this is the cause but it could be. Did the
brushes look black or grey? Also you said the comm is damaged is it bad
or maybe just scortched?? Take some pics if you can and send them
direct or post to a page, I'd like to take a look at what you got going
on down there. This should be a bigger motor, but an ADC 9 or Warp 9
don't go for much higher than your high end costs. You might have more
motor than you can feed. How did it perform for you, did you like it??
BTW if everthing isn't toast your midrange figuer would probably fall
about right. Just be nice to weigh like you stated whether a different
motor would work better for your needs.
Feel free to call me if you'd like, I'd really like to see some pics
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
541-548-6140
"Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jim,
Thanks for your reply.
Answers first. I don't know about the brush material. The first set of
brushes, like the second, lasted only 15,000 km., and were almost for
sure original from Jet Industries. The second set came from Fewkes, a
motor shop in New Jersey, and they knew exactly what the application
was. The brush timing is also original. The pack is 102 volts. I am
in Phoenix, AZ.
In making a decision about what I should do, I was hoping for a maximum
rebuild price, or the possibility of a rebuilt motor being available.
If I knew worst case was $1500, then I could figure perhaps $750 as a
most likely, but know that it couldn't get worse than the $1500.
Thanks for your comments,
Mike
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Motor Rebuild, Replace, or Give Up
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:41:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Husted
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Hey Mike
Motor shops are unable to give you a cost up front being the parts can
be quiet costly to repair. Smaller motors have a flat rate price just
like when you go into an auto store and buy an alternater. As the size
goes up most shops would rather not give you a flat rate price as you'd
probably not be happy about it, being they would have to make sure they
get enough to replace all the parts. If they can save the armature or
coils it reflects the costs. It they need rewound or replaced it can
easily double even triple the cost compared to a standard turn and
undercut type of repair.
As to your brush wear it raises some flags as to what grade of brush
you have been using. Most of the older GE's run a carbony (is that a
word) type brush grade. All the EV motors I've seen run an H-100
graphite type. This could cause the type of brush wear you have been
seeing. You could have timing issues, so I'll ask at what voltage you
are using and whether the brush timing has been advanced, have you
noticed arcing. Be a shame to repair or replace the motor and continue
to have the same problems. Another though is that being it has a OEM 90
volt rating you may not be feeding it enough volts causing the motor to
work hard which is causing this brush wear. Also how many miles were
put on it during that time frame.
Where are you located?
Sorry but I'm another who would have to see it to quoate it.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
"Michael A. Radtke" wrote:
Hello,
I have been driving my Jet ElectraVan for about 5 years. I was
surprised 3 years ago when I needed to replace the motor brushes. I am
more surprised that the new brushes only lasted 15,000 km. Now, there
is commutator damage.
So, I have been trying to figure out what to do next. The motor name
plate says:
GE Model 5BT1346B38 20.9 HP Series 90 volt, 184 Amp
GR8-87-CR 4707 RPM ENCL BV
CL.H Duty 1 HR 140 degrees C
Are there replacement motors available, and for about what cost?
I have not found a local rebuilder who is interested in looking at the
motor, and out-of-state rebuilders want to see the motor before quoting.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike
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hands ASAP.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone,
Just wanted to let you all know that the results page has been updated for
Battery Beach Burnout.
Check it out at: http://www.batterybeach.com/results.html
<http://www.batterybeach.com/results.html>
I'll be working as fast as I can to get pictures from the event up there,
too. Before that, though, I'll be making a post about the runs I had with
Joule Injected. As you'll see from my best time on the results page, I've
got some 'splaining to do!
Stay tuned!
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
http://www.jouleinjected.com <http://www.jouleinjected.com>
Hobe Sound, FL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What would be nice to see is the AC Propulsion powered Venturi Fetish
compared against these cars. But... the fetish costs $600k, so maybe it
would be better to compare it to more expensive ICE cars.
BTW, this "Wright Speed" car is really just a converted Arial Atom:
www.arielmotor.co.uk Ariel takes pride on saying: "no doors, no keys, no
windshield, no roof" - more of a 4 wheel rocket than a car...
These can be purchased for $40-50k and converted.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: January 24, 2006 7:25 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Whooie, elec does it again!
Hello to All,
Rush wrote:
>This was sent to me by someone. A Porche Carrera GT getting zapped by an
elec car....
>
>http://www.ptreyeslight.com/stories/jan19_06/electriccar.html
>
>and here is the manufacturer http://www.energynext.org/
>
>
I love EVs....I love quick and fast EVs, however, to call the Wright Speed a
'car' is really a stretch. Showing this rolling tube chassis beating
expensive exotica seems silly. This thing doesn't have a roof, or doors or
any real body to speak of. It's a rolling tube skeleton being tauted as a
'car'...give me a break! It's another one of AC Propulsion's tricks of using
something that barely passes as a car, then pitting it against real cars.
>Fantastic!!!!!
I'd characterize it as disappointing and darn close to a smoke and mirrors
exercise.
From Mike and Paula:
>Maybe we need to put together a film about real life electrics. I mean
>ones that get driven every day and ones that people can afford to
>own...No doubt the flash of the X1 will open eyes, but the real life cars
will convince them.
Couldn't agree more with you on this!
From David Roden:
If you check the links, this makes sense. A very light racing vehicle with
an AC Propulsion T-zero-type power train is racing portly street-legal
sports cars, so of course it has the advantage.
More common sense from David:
According to both websites cited, the car has achieved a quarter mile time
of 11.95 seconds. I don't know whether that's official, and I don't follow
EV drag racing that closely, but it seems to me that somebody on this list
has run low in the 11s with a more or less street legal EV setup. Yes? No?
And hasn't Dennis Berube run in the 10s? Or is my memory playing tricks on
me?
I agree with David. Why not do the 'right thing' (pun intended) and build a
real car, you know, one with a full body and interior appointments, with a
real roof, and real doors, then install the miracle AC power trains and
'then' match it up to the same exotica cars?
Answer? It would get its newfound doors sucked off, that's why! The best
1/4 mile ET they publish is 11.95 seconds, about 2/10's a second quicker
than my all steel bodied door slammer running on non-exotic lead acid
batteries and cave man DC....this year, we'll be quicker than their skeloton
car. Rod Wilde's all street bodied Maniac Mazda with its world record 11.2
second 1/4 mile ET, while partially gutted and running in the Modified
Conversion class of NEDRA's divisions, is still a real car and would blow
the X1's doors off...oops, sorry, it doesn't even have doors to get blown
off! Dennis Berube's rail has run way quicker than a 10 second run....how's
an 8.8 second ET hit you? Of course, Dennis'
machine is a pure race vehicle, so the comparison is mute...or is it? In
some ways, Dennis' rail is more of a real car, than the X1 is! At least the
Current Eliminator has bodywork!
I find the AC Propulsion tactics tiring. First, the tZero, a fiberglass kit
car that's barely passable as a real car gets compared to other full bodied
machines, now there's a rolling tube frame being touted as a 'car'. Come on
guys, how about making a real car with a nice advanced battery pack and AC
drive, that runs mid 13's, gives 100+ miles range, and actually has a roof
and doors? I for one know they could do this and would be soundly impressed
by such a 'car'.
See Ya...John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
Maybe I misunderstand or misinterpret what the DMV or DPS says but where I
have lived it was required to provide proof of insurance on the vehicle you
were insuring. They looked for the VIN/model on the insurance card or they
wouldn't insure you. In fact they starting impounding cars down here as of late
if you didn't have an up to date insurance card proving that vehicle is covered
when they pull you over for speeding and such.
Maybe all this time they have been saying "proof the vehicle is insured" only
meant the person owning the vehicle has to have auto liability coverage but my
agent nor the DMV/DPS/Police would ever say such a thing. Given I have zero
claims against any insurance and only carry liability I'll have to give this a
look since I have at least twice sold a car because I didnt' use it enough to
justify paying insurance on it.
Mark Hastings
Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello Darin,
I am going to give you some information that a lot of vehicle insurance
companies don't want you to know.
Liability insurance is on the person, not the vehicle. The person is liable,
not the vehicle. It does not make any difference if the vehicle is worth
$10,000.00 or $1,000,000.00. Both of the vehicles will do about the same amount
of damage. The $10,000.00 vehicle may do more damage.
I have three cars that I am the only one that drives them. All three vehicles
are under the same liability coverage. One is a $60,000.00 sports car, one is a
Classic in original condition that is about $40,000.00 and then the EV which I
have is over $50,000.00.
I have one proof of insurance card that I carry from vehicle to vehicle. If I
drive your car, it is cover. If I drive a rental car, it is cover by the same
liability policy. If you used your credit car to rent a car, then the collision
damage is cover by them.
Now some insurance companies won't do a blanket coverage for multiple vehicles.
When you shop for insurance, they won't even consider that. Some advertise that
they will same you money if you insure with them. Sometimes I call these
companies to see how much they can save me. So far everyone is over triple or
one was ten times the cost of my insurance. The one with the animal rat was the
worst.
My insurance company is The Hartford. They insure you the person for liability.
I do not insure any of my vehicles for collision, except for other than
collision cause by objects.
They actually send you a check in with two or three days, in case the other
other person who cause the damage takes a long time to pay for the damage. If
they do, I send the check back to them. If the other person does not pay right
away, then my insurance check pays for the damage and the Hartford contacts the
other person insurance company for payment directly to them.
Glass damage is a separate item where they paid for 100 percent of the damage.
I just call it in, and they give me a Work Order No. and a phone number to the
Hartford which pays them directly.
Insurance is a betting game, you bet all the damage that is cause to your
vehicle by yourself is less than all the collision insurance premiums you will
have for the next 50 years.
In my case, in the last 50 years, I have only $129.00 worth of damage. Other
people have cause $1000.00 of damage to my vehicles while they were park.
The cost of full insurance for one car for that many years, will alone buy you
several new cars.
Insuring multiple vehicles is like insuring only one, you cannot drive all of
them at the same time, so only one is insure while you are driving it.
They don't care what equipment you carry on the vehicle because it is not
insured unless you get a separate equipment policy for it. It's the same as
insuring a computer, cameras, or any thing you carry in the car.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Darin
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 3:13 PM
Subject: budget EV insurance update
After striking out twice last week trying to obtain only liability
insurance on a "non-professional" (hobbyist) EV conversion with through
my broker and a second insurance company, I received several suggestions
from list members that I simply try an insurer used by other EV owners.
I did so this morning, and was successful (was quoted a 3rd party
liability rate comparable to my ICE vehicle).
The insurance company's initial concern was the same: i.e. who is doing
the conversion?
My partner in this project is an industrial electrician, and those words
seemed to satisfy their concern (after a moderately suspenseful "please
hold while I check with my manager"). This information had been
unacceptable to the companies I tried last week.
Their only (reasonable) request was that they may ask for a
post-conversion inspection of the vehicle by a professional mechanic of
their choosing in my area.
For the record (and the archive), I'm in Ontario, and the obliging
insurance company is Melloche Monnex.
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Mike
Okay being the brushes have the black color they are probably very carbon
based, and are what is called a soft brush. Even though you can't mark it with
your finger nail. The grey H-100 grades that although can easily be scratched
by your nail are the harder brush, Sounds wierd I know. So you would do
"Better" with the H-100 grade. Theres more to it and they have different
properties, ect. Now you may have a small bar lift as someone suggested but I
suspect you would have heard the tick, tick, tick it would make. If you didn't
have the armature comm turned before you put the new set in well then you
wouldn't get the life that was given by the original first set. Every brush
set will last less if they are put into a motor with an out of round or grooved
comm. You in fact may be running the motor with the advancement reversed. To
many what if's for me to guess at without a pic or seeing it first hand. Being
others have had good success with the same type of set up!
, there
is either a motor issue or a controller issue that is causing the motor to
show the symtems but is in fact not to blame. At this point the motor has been
damaged, so repair / replacement of the controller if it is the problem will
not fix your issue alone. From what you describe the motor has a good chance
at needing a basic repair. Those big GE's can take a fair amount of abuse,
from my low voltage accounts I speak this with great authority. There is
really nothing more I can do here without at least some pics. Try to use this
as the lesson it is. There should never be the assumtion that this is all
going to be easy, and flawless. These post are where others learn and grow and
get the incouragement to continue with their fight, so although it may take you
some time become an informed consumer like you are to plot your next course and
then set sail toward that goal as best you can. Be not discouraged, I'm sure
even Waylands had those times when it seemed everything !
was
aginst him. Sharing this issue with others is living in the real world and
not trying to paint a rosey picture for the world to see that is not the truth.
Stiffen that upper lip as I believe that there are many with you in spirit and
hoping you to continue, at least as an EV'er
Best of luck
Sorry I can't help more (yet)
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jim,
The brushes look black. They are worn to the rivets.
The rivets and arcing caused the damage to the commutator. One of the
brush holders shows some damage as well, but it probably can be
salvaged.
I can't take decent pictures at this time since the motor is still in
the car, with poor visibility. It will be weeks or months until I can
find the time to pull it if I decide to continue this adventure.
The performance is leisurely. More can't be expected since the car
retains the clutch from the intended ICE. It was tiny. So, it's easy
to cause clutch slip.
I don't think that I'd consider a different motor because the current
one physically fits. A replacement would require modifications.
Removing the motor is annoying because I need to remove the transmission
as well for clearance. If I'm going to give up, I'd rather do it now
than after I spend a lot more time on the car. That's why I was trying
to get some ball park estimate of the cost to get the car back on the
road.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Mike
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Motor Rebuild, Replace, or Give Up
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:38:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Husted
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Hey Mike
Okay so you are only at 102 so you could be asking a motor to do two
to three times its OEM load and only feeding 1.1 so to speak (whats it
driving). I'm not saying this is the cause but it could be. Did the
brushes look black or grey? Also you said the comm is damaged is it bad
or maybe just scortched?? Take some pics if you can and send them
direct or post to a page, I'd like to take a look at what you got going
on down there. This should be a bigger motor, but an ADC 9 or Warp 9
don't go for much higher than your high end costs. You might have more
motor than you can feed. How did it perform for you, did you like it??
BTW if everthing isn't toast your midrange figuer would probably fall
about right. Just be nice to weigh like you stated whether a different
motor would work better for your needs.
Feel free to call me if you'd like, I'd really like to see some pics
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
541-548-6140
"Michael A. Radtke" wrote:
Jim,
Thanks for your reply.
Answers first. I don't know about the brush material. The first set of
brushes, like the second, lasted only 15,000 km., and were almost for
sure original from Jet Industries. The second set came from Fewkes, a
motor shop in New Jersey, and they knew exactly what the application
was. The brush timing is also original. The pack is 102 volts. I am
in Phoenix, AZ.
In making a decision about what I should do, I was hoping for a maximum
rebuild price, or the possibility of a rebuilt motor being available.
If I knew worst case was $1500, then I could figure perhaps $750 as a
most likely, but know that it couldn't get worse than the $1500.
Thanks for your comments,
Mike
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Motor Rebuild, Replace, or Give Up
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:41:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Husted
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Hey Mike
Motor shops are unable to give you a cost up front being the parts can
be quiet costly to repair. Smaller motors have a flat rate price just
like when you go into an auto store and buy an alternater. As the size
goes up most shops would rather not give you a flat rate price as you'd
probably not be happy about it, being they would have to make sure they
get enough to replace all the parts. If they can save the armature or
coils it reflects the costs. It they need rewound or replaced it can
easily double even triple the cost compared to a standard turn and
undercut type of repair.
As to your brush wear it raises some flags as to what grade of brush
you have been using. Most of the older GE's run a carbony (is that a
word) type brush grade. All the EV motors I've seen run an H-100
graphite type. This could cause the type of brush wear you have been
seeing. You could have timing issues, so I'll ask at what voltage you
are using and whether the brush timing has been advanced, have you
noticed arcing. Be a shame to repair or replace the motor and continue
to have the same problems. Another though is that being it has a OEM 90
volt rating you may not be feeding it enough volts causing the motor to
work hard which is causing this brush wear. Also how many miles were
put on it during that time frame.
Where are you located?
Sorry but I'm another who would have to see it to quoate it.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
"Michael A. Radtke" wrote:
Hello,
I have been driving my Jet ElectraVan for about 5 years. I was
surprised 3 years ago when I needed to replace the motor brushes. I am
more surprised that the new brushes only lasted 15,000 km. Now, there
is commutator damage.
So, I have been trying to figure out what to do next. The motor name
plate says:
GE Model 5BT1346B38 20.9 HP Series 90 volt, 184 Amp
GR8-87-CR 4707 RPM ENCL BV
CL.H Duty 1 HR 140 degrees C
Are there replacement motors available, and for about what cost?
I have not found a local rebuilder who is interested in looking at the
motor, and out-of-state rebuilders want to see the motor before quoting.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
I get a proof of insurance card for each car, but the insurance is all under
one blanket premium.
As for driving other cars that are not listed, Hartford told me to carry any
one of the cards to show proof of liability on the user. The back of the card
has a 1-800 number if anyone once to question it.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Hastings<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: budget EV insurance update
Roland,
Maybe I misunderstand or misinterpret what the DMV or DPS says but where I
have lived it was required to provide proof of insurance on the vehicle you
were insuring. They looked for the VIN/model on the insurance card or they
wouldn't insure you. In fact they starting impounding cars down here as of late
if you didn't have an up to date insurance card proving that vehicle is covered
when they pull you over for speeding and such.
Maybe all this time they have been saying "proof the vehicle is insured"
only meant the person owning the vehicle has to have auto liability coverage
but my agent nor the DMV/DPS/Police would ever say such a thing. Given I have
zero claims against any insurance and only carry liability I'll have to give
this a look since I have at least twice sold a car because I didnt' use it
enough to justify paying insurance on it.
Mark Hastings
Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
Hello Darin,
I am going to give you some information that a lot of vehicle insurance
companies don't want you to know.
Liability insurance is on the person, not the vehicle. The person is liable,
not the vehicle. It does not make any difference if the vehicle is worth
$10,000.00 or $1,000,000.00. Both of the vehicles will do about the same amount
of damage. The $10,000.00 vehicle may do more damage.
I have three cars that I am the only one that drives them. All three vehicles
are under the same liability coverage. One is a $60,000.00 sports car, one is a
Classic in original condition that is about $40,000.00 and then the EV which I
have is over $50,000.00.
I have one proof of insurance card that I carry from vehicle to vehicle. If I
drive your car, it is cover. If I drive a rental car, it is cover by the same
liability policy. If you used your credit car to rent a car, then the collision
damage is cover by them.
Now some insurance companies won't do a blanket coverage for multiple
vehicles. When you shop for insurance, they won't even consider that. Some
advertise that they will same you money if you insure with them. Sometimes I
call these companies to see how much they can save me. So far everyone is over
triple or one was ten times the cost of my insurance. The one with the animal
rat was the worst.
My insurance company is The Hartford. They insure you the person for
liability. I do not insure any of my vehicles for collision, except for other
than collision cause by objects.
They actually send you a check in with two or three days, in case the other
other person who cause the damage takes a long time to pay for the damage. If
they do, I send the check back to them. If the other person does not pay right
away, then my insurance check pays for the damage and the Hartford contacts the
other person insurance company for payment directly to them.
Glass damage is a separate item where they paid for 100 percent of the
damage. I just call it in, and they give me a Work Order No. and a phone number
to the Hartford which pays them directly.
Insurance is a betting game, you bet all the damage that is cause to your
vehicle by yourself is less than all the collision insurance premiums you will
have for the next 50 years.
In my case, in the last 50 years, I have only $129.00 worth of damage. Other
people have cause $1000.00 of damage to my vehicles while they were park.
The cost of full insurance for one car for that many years, will alone buy
you several new cars.
Insuring multiple vehicles is like insuring only one, you cannot drive all of
them at the same time, so only one is insure while you are driving it.
They don't care what equipment you carry on the vehicle because it is not
insured unless you get a separate equipment policy for it. It's the same as
insuring a computer, cameras, or any thing you carry in the car.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Darin
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 3:13 PM
Subject: budget EV insurance update
After striking out twice last week trying to obtain only liability
insurance on a "non-professional" (hobbyist) EV conversion with through
my broker and a second insurance company, I received several suggestions
from list members that I simply try an insurer used by other EV owners.
I did so this morning, and was successful (was quoted a 3rd party
liability rate comparable to my ICE vehicle).
The insurance company's initial concern was the same: i.e. who is doing
the conversion?
My partner in this project is an industrial electrician, and those words
seemed to satisfy their concern (after a moderately suspenseful "please
hold while I check with my manager"). This information had been
unacceptable to the companies I tried last week.
Their only (reasonable) request was that they may ask for a
post-conversion inspection of the vehicle by a professional mechanic of
their choosing in my area.
For the record (and the archive), I'm in Ontario, and the obliging
insurance company is Melloche Monnex.
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger,
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
You gave me a lot to digest, so it will take some time. As I've
mentioned before, the current decision is whether to forge ahead or
through in the towel.
Thanks again,
Mike
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: Give Up on ElectraVan
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:48:09 -0800
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Michael A. Radtke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> From my earlier post, you may have seen that my Jet
> ElectraVan is down again, this time in an expensive way.
Sorry to hear of your EV problems, however, for what it is worth, I
think that there is something wrong with your particular sample. That
is, other people with the GE motors have/are enjoying much better
reliability and brush life than yours has demonstrated. This motor is
plenty big for the application and I seriously doubt that there is any
problem at all with the votlage you are feeding it since others have
happily run these motors anywhere from 96V to 120V (and likely well
beyond in racing).
I would lean toward suspecting the motor controller possibly subjecting
the motor large amount of ripple current, which might accelerate the
brush and comm wear (think of it being something like continuously
switching the motor between full off and full on, so that instead of a
fairly even modest average current it sees a few to several hundred amps
for a short time, then nothing, then a few hundred amps, etc. This
thought is based on my assumption that you are still running the
original SCR controller.
It might be that something is not quite right with your controller, or
it might just be a fact of life with this controller and such a
(relatively) small inductance motor.
Due to the collector nature of the vehicle, you may be reluctant to
change anything from stock. If so, then your only option would seem to
be trying to determine if there is something amiss with the controller
and getting it corrected so your next set of brushes and comm last
longer.
If you are willing to modify the car you have a few options. Money
being no object, replace the SCR controller with a Z1k and enjoy all the
performance your EV is capable of (more than you ever thought it had
;^). If that is too much of a stretch, replace the SCR controller with
a Curtis 1231C; performance will remain similar to the original, but you
should have better (possibly much better) range. Finally, if even that
is too much, you could try to verify the SCR controller is working
properly, then add a large inductor in series with the motor. David
Chapman (also in your area) is a good source for such inductors
(surplus/takeout 'reactors' from the output side of large welders). If
the large ripple current is stressing your motor, the addition of the
inductor will help smooth it and should reduce the stress on the motor.
Perhaps Jim Husted can offer some thoughts on possible failures/defects
that your motor might have that could reduce its inductance or make it
eat brushes unusually quickly? My thinking is that while the motor
might have accidentally been fitted with the wrong brush material in the
first place, or you might have been given the wrong material when
replacing them, it seems unlikely that you would get the same low life
in both cases. For instance, do you hear any sort of roughness when the
motor spins? A raised comm bar early in the motor's life might cause it
to eat brushes quickly; if this condition went undetected when you
replaced the brushes, they would also wear prematurely. The good news
is that since you rcomm is now damaged, if a raised bar were the
problem, it will be corrected when the motor is repaired. How about a
short between a field winding and the motor case, or just a short
between turns of a field winding? If this results in a decrease in
motor inductance, then your motor will experience more extreme ripple
current than otherwise identical motor/controller pairs. I'm sure Jim
can come up with more possibilities.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
