EV Digest 5139
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Hey man, your car is on fire !
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Hey man, your car is on fire !
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Hey man, your car is on fire !
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Blow DC converter question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: How to Convert - For fun and Profit - Without getting Sued
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Hey man, your car is on fire !
by paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Batteries anyone?
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Raptor 600 Tach
by "Neil Gover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) ICE add-on makes a hybrid
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Increasing Range
by Jonathan Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Hey man, your car is on fire !
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Ampabout ... Get the Red in
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: ICE add-on makes a hybrid
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Ampabout ... You just have to a little faith baby
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: ICE add-on makes a hybrid
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Bush mentions battery tech, EVs
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It does take a while for a 1221 or a 1231 to bleed down, they are not real
fast. It's been years since I have run one but I think you drop 30 to 50
volts a minute.
Enough so a long light might make a darn good spark on repower.
Roger's concept of keeping the controller hot with the precharge and then
limiting the current Will save the current spikes, but you have a power loss
while doing it.
When I ran Curtis controllers, I ran at 120 to 144 volts, and I always had
the controller power by the key on and with the contactor. I did not have a
precharge, but it only got one power up per cycle. I did blow them up a
couple of times... and that is the main reason DCP controllers had a
internal precharge that was Micro driven and overseen.
The fact that we had lots of folks find ways to blow up and cook our
precharge, is why Otmar's Zillas have a external precharge in the hair ball
not the power stage.
Ot learned from our pain...Smart Man...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fortunat Mueller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: Hey man, your car is on fire !
> Thanks Ryan.
> Thanks Otmar.
>
> Having met you and worked briefly in your shop, I tend
> to trust your engineering instincts and the robustness
> of your design. I can't say the same for Curtis. The
> Zilla obviously has several redundant layers of safety
> built in which probably more than compensates for not
> having a secondary contactor which drops out with the
> accelerator. i didn't realize that the hairball has
> its own micro and watch dog; i guess i thought it was
> mostly just a convenient interface panel. I will take
> another read through your manual and figure out if all
> this seems sufficient for my case.
>
> As for your question, I will look up the fuse P/N but
> I am pretty sure that I have two fuses in the circuit
> and that one of them is a quick blow semiconductor
> fuse. Neither fuse blew in this case.
> To clarify, i don't know that the controller itself
> was ever 'on fire'. It did somehow spit that plastic
> endcap (where the model and SN info is), and this
> piece landed ontop of my bellypan which subsequently
> caught fire. So the piece itself may or may not have
> been on fire, but it was hot enough to ignite the
> corrugated plastic none the less.
>
> Rich : I have wondered about the loss of precharge due
> to opening the secondary contactor when stopped. Maybe
> it was never an issue when i was at a lower voltage
> because i was generally being easy on the controller,
> but now that i am close to the voltage limit, i am
> sure you are right that it is hard on the caps.
> In your opinion, how quickly does the capacitor bank
> lose charge when disconnected ? Is it substantially
> discharged in a matter of seconds ? or does it take
> longer ? Is this self discharge or does some
> controller function pull the caps down (in the absence
> of any throttle input) ?
>
> Thanks for the advice.
> Otmar, unpack your damm boxes already...i think i will
> be ordering a zilla 1k....probably through evsource, i
> suppose.
>
> ~fortunat
>
>
> --- Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hi EVeryone,
> >
> > Otmar is having problems posting to the list, and
> > asked me to post this for him.
> >
> > -Ryan
> >
> > At 12:33 PM -0800 1/29/06, Fortunat Mueller wrote
> > about his Curtis fire:
> >
> > >2- Controllers can/will fail shorted. Thank god for
> > >the secondary contactor. I've always had my EV set
> > up
> > >this way and I am glad I did. Removing your foot
> > from
> > >gas pedal is instinctive and fast; i don't know if
> > I
> > >would have thought to turn off the key in mid
> > >intersection. Looking through the Zilla manual, it
> > >seems Otmar doesn't support this kind of set up
> > >because of precharge complications. Is there a
> > zilla
> > >compatible wiring method that still has the
> > redundent
> > >safety I have come to appreciate ?
> >
> > Hi Fortunat,
> > I'm very sorry to hear about your controller
> > failure. That doesn't
> > sound like fun. I'm glad you were able to stop the
> > fire before it
> > took out the car. It certainly could have been much
> > worse.
> >
> > btw: I'm, curious. What make and part number fuse
> > were you running?
> > Did it blow? Sometimes a fast enough fuse can
> > prevent such a fire.
> >
> > To answer your question: I've never seen a Zilla
> > fail its power
> > section full on like that. But if it were to happen
> > then there are a
> > number of backup contingencies that should drop out
> > the main
> > contactor in less than 1/2 second in a worst case.
> > Attempting to
> > restart a Zilla with the output transistors shorted
> > (internally or
> > some other external means which bypass it) would
> > then cause a
> > precharge error and the Hairball will not pull in
> > the main contactor.
> >
> > The Zilla itself checks the integrity of its power
> > section hundreds
> > of times a second. If there is reasonable current
> > flowing and the
> > Zilla is unable to turn off the motor for a few
> > microseconds (even at
> > full throttle) then the microcontroller in the Zilla
> > sends a error
> > code to the Hairball telling the Hairball
> > microcontroller to turn off
> > the main contactor. Also, if for for some reason the
> > Hairball stops
> > receiving valid "I'm OK" data from the Zilla then
> > the Hairball
> > assumes the worst and again shuts the system down
> > with the main
> > contactor. In that case it will not even try to
> > resume normal
> > operation until the key is turned off for some time
> > and tried again.
> > If the Hairball and the Zilla were somehow both able
> > to lose their
> > minds at exactly the same time, and somehow kept
> > running despite the
> > hardware and software watchdogs in each of them then
> > I suppose the
> > driver would be reduced to turning off the key to
> > force the contactor
> > to turn off.
> >
> > Cycling the main contactor with the pedal has been
> > discussed at
> > length before and I've always felt it to be
> > unnecessary due to the
> > systems already in the Zilla/Hairball combination. I
> > suppose it
> > wouldn't be too hard to change the Hairball code to
> > make it possible.
> > I'd consider such a mod if someone felt strongly
> > that it was
> > important in addition to all the built in safeties.
> > On the downside,
> > microswitch problems are not uncommon in cars using
> > that technique
> > and it could be a source of nuisance trips of errors
> > and damage to
> > the contactor from switching under load.
> >
> > hth,
> > --
> > -Otmar-
> >
> > http://www.CafeElectric.com/
> > The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
> > Now accepting resumes. Please see:
> > http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Why argue with me Roger???
Because Curtii users deserve a better anwser.
> The point is the Curtii got hammered, and the simple
> contactor safety was the main culprit.
Emphasis here is on the word *simple*; had this person understood the need to
keep the caps precharged he could have implemented an only slightly more
complex scheme and saved himself the cost of a forced controller upgrade and
the hassle of a roadside failure.
> Yes, one can find away to make this safe without precharging
> on every cycle, But those that use the "clank clank "control
> Scheme most likely don't Get the precharge concepts anyways.
Which is why it is important for those of us who do understand these concepts
to explain it to the others.
> Since Curtis does require it most don't think it's needed.
> Plus
> those of us who design controllers have REQUIRED that you do
> it our way. We do have reasons. Those reasons are valid for
> Curtii controllers also.
No, Rich, that's not entirely true. The simple fact that you want to precharge
the caps in a controlled manner is valid for all controllers, however, Curtii
differ from the more sophisticated DCP, Café Electric, and perhaps Auburn
controllers in that they require external precharge circuitry and they really
do benefit from the additional safety of the microswitch controlled main
contactor because they *don't* have internal logic to drop out the contactor in
the event of a failure.
With the possible exception of the Café Electric controllers with their
multiple micros, *every* controller would benefit from the additional (perhaps
even redundant) safety of having a contactor open each time the throttle is
released.
Now, since a Curtis user *must* provide an external precharge resistor across
one of his main contactors (or the main contactor, if only one is present),
then to properly use the microswitch controlled contactor feature for
additional safety requires no additional complication; it only requires that
the contactor controlled by the microswitch is the one with the precharge
resistor wired across it. The contactor opens each time the throttle is
released, but the precharge resistor across it keeps the caps charged at all
times, so it is no more stressful on the caps than leaving the contactor
closed. How can you possibly argue against including the microswitch
controlled contactor when it represents a significant safety feature for any
Curtis installation, and is very simple to implement in such a way that it
causes no additional wear/stress on the controller?
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Roger's concept of keeping the controller hot with the
> precharge and then limiting the current Will save the current
> spikes, but you have a power loss while doing it.
This is true, but let's keep it in perspective.
Using your 50V/min discharge WAG, and assuming the caps start at 144V
and have a [generous estimate for a Curtii] capacitance of 10000uF we
can compute that the equivalent bleed resistance discharging the caps is
about 14k ohms. The worst case discharge current is with the caps at
max voltage, or 144V, and works out to 10mA. The recommended precharge
resistor for a 1231 is 750 ohms, so the power lost in this resistor
keeping the caps charged while the contactor is open is I^2R =
((0.010)^2)*750 = 0.075 W... less than 1/10th of a watt.
Hardly worth worrying about, especially when you consider that whether
the contactor is open or closed, the caps are still discharging through
this internal 14k ohms, and the power loss associated with that is 1.4W,
so the loss increases by only about 5% while the contactor is open.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael A. Radtke wrote:
> Lee: Because the controller sends the 800 Hz PWM signal to the
> converter, and the converter is always connected to the pack,
> is it possible that the controller is doing all the regulation,
> and that the converter is just a set of switching transistors?
It's possible, but unlikely.
It would be possible to connect the primary of a transformer to the PWM
output of you controller, and rectify the resulting AC on the secondary
as your DC/DC converter. You could certainly generate a *lot* of 12v
power that way! However, it would only be active when the controller was
at something other than 0 or full throttle. You would also need a series
blocking capacitor in the primary to deal with the full-on case.
You'd have to regulate this output somehow. You can't use PWM, as it's
already being varied for motor control. But you could use a
constant-voltage transformer (built for 15 KHz or whatever frequency
your controller runs at). It would regulate to a few percent by itself,
or you could deliberately adjust the frequency of the PWM to control the
12v output voltage.
It may seem like a bizarre scheme, but it's used in TV sets. The 15 KHz
horizontal oscillator's main job is to scan the image left-right. But
the horizontal output transformer has extra windings to generate the
high voltage for a picture tube, and often also for its filament voltage
as well.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here are some ridiculous "winners" from 2005:
Yellow pages losing $1.2 million because of misleading ad placed by
doctor. Um yeah -- cause the yellow pages have and editorial
responsibility for claims made by it's clients.
http://katutv.com/news/story.asp?ID=75286
Woman wins $900 in court against people who left her cookies.
http://durangoherald.com/asp-bin/article_generation.asp?article_type=news&article_path=/news/05/news050212_1.htm
kluge wrote:
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
I mean, we live in a country where a burglar can break a window on your house in order to gain illegal entry, cut himself on the broken glass
and then sue YOU for having such a dangerous situation...and win. Don't laugh, it's happened.
When? Where? Seriously. If you're going to make decisions - like whether to convert a car to electric - based on a belief that this is an
accurate assessment of the risk involved, you should take care to make sure you're basing your opinion on fact, not propaganda. Most
people's belief that America is a wildly litigious country is based on stories about phony lawsuits that either never happened at all, or claims that
were filed by some nut without a lawyer and promptly thrown out of court. (If you haven't figured it out by now, I work in a law firm, and
although my firm isn't involved in injury litigation, I know the reality up close. Reading this stuff is like hearing the gen-on-a-wheel idea for the
200th time for me.) In fact, lawsuits over injuries have been declining on a per capita basis for decades. There is a real risk that you can
injure someone seriously any time you do something like alter a carefully designed motor vehicle to operate in a manner other than it was
designed for. If you do, a major financial loss can occur, and it’s either going to be borne by you or the person you are responsible for
injuring. That’s the real risk, and it’s one that has to be realistically faced. Blaming it on burglars suing you for having glass windows is a cop-
out.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How would one adapt this concept to a controller with a twist grip throttle?
I dont have room in the throttle grip for another micro-switch, it just has the
0-5k pot.
Also, since i run 2 contactors, should i drop both out or only one? I
currently have the precharge across both, running into the alltrax controller.
I have thought about running a safety circuit through the brake light
circuit, so to drop them out when the brakes are on. (Unless i am in need of a
nice burn out!) Is this a good plan or should one only do it with a off
throttle swtich?
Thoughts?
---------------------------------
Bring words and photos together (easily) with
PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
Last night I finally got a look at the latest EV to join our chapter and
I have to admit I was quite disappointed and a rather angry.
Just out of curiousity, is the actual owner of the Metro also
dissapointed and angry about the car?
I'm just wondering if he/she made an informed decision in acquiring a
very low-budget conversion, or whether the specs, performance & quality
of the vehicle came as a surprise after the fact (safety issues
notwithstanding).
(FYI - my questions aren't meant to defend the conversion company - I
have no interest in the issue except that I'm researching building a
"budget NEV/LSV" myself.)
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does the conversion run? If so what is the performance like? I've been
trying to find anyone that has one to talk about. It sounds like what they
advertised. If it was converted by Wilderness EV it sounds terrible. Is it
possible it was done by someone else with a Wilderness kit? It sure sounds
like the Wilderness kit done by a newbie. Still for 2500 if it runs and had
15 miles usable range on flat ground it'd be worth it. Did this one have a
clutch or clutchless? Lawrence Rhodes..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 4:35 AM
Subject: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
Hi folks,
Last night I finally got a look at the latest EV to join our chapter and I
have to admit I was quite disappointed and a rather angry. The car is a
Geo Metro converted by E-Volks. It is really hard to see how they can
consider this a completed "turn-key" electric car. This is what I found:
All battery cable ends are those bolt-on temporary ones. They used the
top post type on the batteries and the side post type for all loop
connections such as the motor, contactor and shunt.
All added low current wiring, such as the ammeter shunt leads, contactor
coil leads, and so forth were wired with speaker wire.
No fuses or circuit breakers in the battery pack wiring, nor in any added
wiring.
Battery interconnect cables routed from front to rear by running across
the passenger side floor.
No batteries secured by any means whatsoever.
The 80 Amp-Hour 12 Volt auxiliary battery, wired to charge from a 2 Amp
battery charger.
The 10 Amp pack battery charger connects to the car with alligator clips.
The damaged throttle cable is connected to a pot-box, but the car doesn't
have a controller. It was shipped as a 36 Volt on-off no controller
required.
The drive motor is an old aircraft starter-generator. While the mount and
adapter seem sufficient so far, there was no provision made to cool the
motor.
The rear battery rack seemed fairly well fabricated, but the front racks
were hacked up out of used bed side rails and attached with screws.
No vacuum pump was added to support the existing power brakes. Also, one
of the brake lines had been cut.
The car was still equipped with a full exhaust system, including muffler
and catalytic converter.
The gas tank and filler neck were still in place, and a the uncapped cut
off end of the fuel line was left level with the top of the front
batteries.
Basically, what he has is a dirty Geo Metro with some body damage, an
aircraft starter generator with matching adapter and coupler, an
adjustable 6-72 Volt 5-10 Amp battery charger, a 12 Volt 2 Amp float
battery charger, a 500 Amp Ammeter and shunt, a 50 Volt Voltmeter, a
Kilovac contactor, and six 6 Volt Exide golf-cart batteries. Not much for
$2500 and unlikely to deliver the 35-40 mph, 30 mile range advertised.
This was supposedly a complete EV when purchased. These folks have a
strange idea of what completed means. I guess we really need to strike
these folks as a potential source of conversions. Unfortunately, I think
it has been too long in his hands for any legal remedy, he has had it for
a few months. I have been trying to come up with an upgrade strategy, I
know there isn't much to work with, but he is in this deep so somehow we
have to make it work. My thinking is, upgrade to 72 Volts, build proper
battery racks up front and a new rack and enclosure in back. Add a
controller, circuit breaker, fuses, vacuum pump, motor blower fan, DC-DC
converter, a proper battery charger, upgraded gages, and new wiring. We
are also going to need to go over the car itself, I am sure it has some
mechanical issues that need to be addressed. And yes, the exhaust system
and gas tank have to go.
72 Volts is pretty low, but I am afraid of over loading the car with too
much weight. If anyone has any additional suggestions, I would appreciate
the input.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Location, Location, Location?
Marry-Land.
I live there. What do they have?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Postmaster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:20:11 -0800
Delivery failed 2 attempts: [email protected]
Original message follows.
I am still having trouble getting a tachometer to work with my Raptor. I
tried a better tachometer. No change.
I removed the corplast that I had installed to keep snow, dirt and water from
damaging the motor. This also kept the tach sensor in relatively dark area.
"4.2 Tachometer Sensor Wiring" paragraph 2 tells me to disconnect the motor
from the controller and turn it to see the white LED on the sensor light up.
No light. I varied the gap from about an eighth to a half inch and still no
white LED.
Once I solve this problem I will deal with the sluggish feeling. Maybe the
batteries just need some exercise.
Thanks for the previous responses.
Neil, soon to be grinning more!
___________________________________________________________
$0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
Signup at www.doteasy.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check this out!
http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/electrocharger/electrocharger.php
Elec motor that is mounted on ICE body and has drive belt connected to
crankshaft. Uses capacitors (30Kw) from rear of car to power motor. Caps are
charged by new 'alternator' that uses regenerative braking.
Tax Deduction,
"it decreases your 0-60 time by a minimum of 3 seconds and sheds at least 3
seconds off your 1/4 mile time",
"In almost all performance driving situations the ElectrochargerT never runs
out of power"
Estimated retail is $2800.00 USD
It is equally powerful at any speed
ETC...
Looks pretty home made to me...
See the note at the bottom of the page for Jan 16th 2006
In any case, nice concept.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
I guess you just will have to "pony up" for "super caps".
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
paul wiley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> How would one adapt this concept to a controller with a twist
> grip throttle? I dont have room in the throttle grip for
> another micro-switch, it just has the 0-5k pot.
It sounds like it would be difficult to impossible to do with your twist
grip throttle, however, it would be possible if you were using a
conventional motor cycle throttle twist grip to operate a throttle cable
that could connect to a conventional pot box (complete with
microswitch).
> Also, since i run 2 contactors, should i drop both out or
> only one? I currently have the precharge across both, running
> into the alltrax controller.
You only need to drop out one or the other. When you say you have the
precharge across both, do you mean that you have used 2 precharge
resistors, each having 1/2 the required total precharge resistance? If
so, unless you have provided some means (a small relay in series with
one of the precharge resistors) of disconnecting one or both of the
precharge resistors when the contactors are open then you are defeating
one of the purposes of having two contactors in the first place (to
disconnect the battery completely from the drivetrain when the key is
off), and are keeping the controller caps precharged at all times such
that a controller failure while charging could launch your vehicle into
something/someone.
If you use a single precharge resistor across one contactor, then when
the key is off and both contactors open, the controller bus caps are
allowed to discharge and while the drivetrain is still not completely
isolated from the battery pack at least it isn't being subjected to the
peak charging voltage any longer.
> I have thought about running a safety circuit through the
> brake light circuit, so to drop them out when the brakes are
> on. (Unless i am in need of a nice burn out!) Is this a good
> plan or should one only do it with a off throttle swtich?
It has been suggested that most of the safety can be realised with much
less contactor clacking using a scheme that closes the contactor when
the throttle is pressed/twisted and drops it out when the brake is
pressed. The downside of this scheme is that it would introduce an
additional delay before the vehicle is shut down in the event of a
runaway, though on a bike this delay could be less of an issue since the
rear brake can be applied even before one's fingers shift from the
throttle grip to the front brake lever.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Last week I dropped off my Blazer EV at the home of a local
mechanic that was willing to take my motor out and rework it. I
have been driving a friends ICE while he repairs any damage my EV
got from the New Years storm flood waters.
This week I had to give up the little rascal electric scooter I
used when I had broken my leg. Its electronics and gearbox were
damaged from the flood waters, the scooter was ruined. I pulled the
U1 batteries before I chucked it.
I lost one of my 12 V automotive chargers, but was able to
resurrect two of my 12 V boat chargers. These are the type that
have multiple 12 V charging banks in one case. I will find a use
for them.
I am glad I had my friend's wheels as the weather has been a never
ending cycle of rain and more rain. I needed to drive to the
College last night to straighten out my grades, so I could get a
clean copy of my transcripts for the University I am applying to.
Thankfully we have not had enough rain to flood like on New Years,
and not as bad as what the Northwest has been experiencing. But
every day of rainy weather delays the mechanic from working on my
EV. This past week has only had a couple of days of non-rainy
weather.
I got a voicemail message from the Mechanic today, and talked to
him during my lunch hour. He said the removal of the motor and
transmission was straight forward and he has already separated the
motor, replaced the motors bearings and smoothed the armature. He
said the brushes were like new.
However he found there was rust on the flywheel and the clutch
plate. He has drained the transmission fluid and found it to be
milky. That means the tranny fluid was contaminated with water.
The mechanic found the tranny did not have the red automatic
transmission fluid in it. He said it was a milky brown color which
means a manual transmission fluid was put in my tranny by the last
auto shop that did maintenance on it.
The mechanic will be flushing and refilling my 4 speed manual
tranny with red automatic fluid (like what I had before). He plans
to replace the throw out bearing as it was contaminated and partly
the cause of the noise.
He is draining the differential of gear oil and still has to pull
the wheels to repack the bearings, and go through the rest of the
vehicle checking for water contamination and re-lubricating where
needed. All this work it needs to be done before my EV can be back
on the road.
Since there is rain in the forecast this week and next, it will be
a while before I get my EV back.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- Begin Message ---
Rush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Check this out!
> http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/electrocharger/electrocharger.php
Looks pretty sketchy to me. It appears to use a Lynch motor, which has
fairly low max RPM limits unless it has been modified. The photo
suggests that the Lynch is being spun at 5-10x the crank speed, which
would result in upwards of 20000RPM even at a modest ICE speed of
4000RPM. I doubt that even a modified Lynch can survive these speeds;
8000-10000RPM, maybe, but 20KRPM would really surprise me.
The "regenerative braking" claim is wishful thinking and/or marketing
hype. The Lynch is connected to the ICE crank, so it only spins if the
ICE spins. If you have an auto tranny you can only get any regen
if/when the tranny locks the input to the output and there are no spragg
clutches inline. Even with a manual, much of your regen energy is going
to be consumed spinning the ICE. One certainly might recover a fraction
of the available regen energy, but essentially no more so than the stock
alternator did.
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
I read Bruce's post, and it kinda hits "right here", if you know
what I mean. As an apartment dweller, I have been very lucky
that my EV has not had any problems that I could not handle here
at home, or have had somebody (a fellow EV'er) with a driveway to
work on the car. The worst showstopper (although the car ran
fine) occurred only last June, when I found a zorched brush lead
in the motor during inspection. Fortunately, since the car was
already down on the Peninsula getting new batteries and whatnot,
I was quite lucky to have one of the local EV Gods come give me a
helping hand to replace the brush assembly (it didn't turn out to
be that bad - luckily the motor did not have to be removed from
the car, and I learned something!). I am very thankful for EV
Gods! If it happened here at home, it's quite possible the EV
would be sitting in the storage container now, the gas vehicle up
here, and I would be walking most of my trips around town.
Marin is a decent tow from the Peninsula (if the car is even
towable when something went wrong). In Marin, I no longer really
have EV contacts to provide the friendly driveway/garage if
something goes wrong that I can't handle at the carport here.
Like Bruce, I cannot do major repairs at my residence. Jacking
the car up on jackstands for a few hours to replace the rear
shocks is about as far as I'm willing to push it. A motor drop
is out of the question, certainly by myself, eventhough I put
this car together (it was a long time ago). There are also
getting to be fewer and fewer EV Gods in the Bay Area. Mike
Slominski, of Mike's Auto Care, has left for saner places up in
the Sierra foothills. Otmar has left for another saner place
(although I haven't really heard why, although I speculate). The
support group is thinning out :-(.
I have had the EV in to local repair shops in years past with
moderate success. I had to have new front shocks put in, and a
new steering rack. They also installed some nice semi-metallic
disc brake linings and neat vented/grooved rotors - the car does
slow down quite well. Body work and paint job. But I get a rock
in my stomach and feel somewhat queasy these days when pondering
whether to take the car into a local shop for this and that, or
place it on my own list for sometime later (maybe much later).
It seems to be an uphill battle, having to explain this and that,
why I converted it, you'd better plug it in if you're going to
keep it for more than a few days (they had the car for a week for
the steering rack, and handed it back to me with no 1st, 2nd or
reverse - no way up my hill) and drive it, and am-I-going-to-get
shocked ?s, etc. ad-nauseum. How about just fixing the car in an
expeditious manner - just do the job!!
For people who don't have a shop and a place to keep a car while
it's down (apt dwellers, trailer court residents like Bruce,
condo owners, ...), custom/non-OEM EV ownership can be a rather
daunting gamble (and it fleshes out as the years go by). And, oh
yeah, where are ya going to plug it in (at least for apt
dwellers)?
I don't see these issues discussed very much (Bruce's post is one
of the few that come to mind). However, given that a substantial
portion of the population of the potential EV market lives in
urban areas with the above issues, I think it is rather
important. I wish you luck Bruce, and I keep my fingers crossed
for my own scene. Hopefully someday I'll have a shop with plenty
of sheltered space out in the country - I, frankly, can't wait!
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
----- Original Message -----
From: "bruce parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: Ampabout ... You just have to a little faith baby
> My research did not find any EV repair shops in my area. There
are
> no local auto repair shops that will even touch my vehicle.
> Mechanics are scared of anything that is different or which is
not
> known to be a quick-moneymaker.
>
> A lot of research, legwork, and beating the bushes for a
mechanic
> to drop the motor, and let me repair the motor's bearings was
> getting me nowhere.
>
> Last week I went over to the house of one of our local EV God's
who
> lives in Palo Alto. He gave me a couple hours of his time in
the
> morning on Sunday. We put my EV up on drive up ramps to look
under
> the front at the motor and transmission.
>
> He determined that the job could be done from underneath
without
> having to yank the batteries and battery racks out which are
above
> the motor. Good, that makes it easier work.
>
> He offered his driveway and the loan of his gas car if I wanted
to
> do the work at his house. When the motor was out, he would
replace
> the bearings as he is a machinist by trade.
>
> But declined his very gracious offer. I do not have the time
(doing
> College courses) and the experience to do that work. I am just
too
> busy and so I need a mechanic and a machinist to complete the
> repair.
>
> I thanked him because now I knew what to tell the mechanic what
the
> work involved. I felt better about what I was to say to a
potential
> mechanic and what not to say as to not scare them away.
>
> I did get a lead from a Sacramento contact. There is an Auto
Shop
> in Auburn that is willing to do the work and take the motor to
an
> Auburn machinist shop to rework the motor. But that is a last
> resort. Because I would have to rent a U-Haul truck and a flat
bed
> trailer, and spend a weekend driving it up and back (twice).
>
> I got two nibbles on an ad I put up on Craigslist asking for a
> mechanic to do the work. I had both come out to my work site to
> check under the vehicle as it was parked in the company parking
> lot.
>
> The first one is an aircraft mechanic that lives in Redwood
City
> very close to me. He has room at his home to let the vehicle
sit
> while the motor is out, and he has a co-worker at work that
will do
> the machinist work.
>
> He also said he will do the rest of the flood damage work I
need
> done: repack the wheel bearings, lube the grease fittings under
the
> vehicle, grease the steering, replace the transmission fluid
(might
> be contaminated with water), and check the differential gear
oil
> for water contamination.
>
> The second one might have been cheaper but he did not sound as
> experienced and he did not have place to let the vehicle sit
while
> the motor was being worked on. I went with the first one.
>
> Thursday during my lunch period I drove my EV over to the guy's
> home. I did a quickie review of how to drive my EV, and then
let
> him drive it into his back yard. Later he drove me back to my
work.
>
> I had already arranged to borrow a friend's gas car (Yuk)
during
> the time I would be without my EV wheels. I got sticker shock
when
> I paid the cost of filling the gas tank, and the 'iffy-lube'
> sticker on his windshield kept reminding me the ICE was due for
> another petroleum-fix. I haven't had to pay that much for gas,
or
> have to lube an ICE in a very long time.
>
> OK, things are looking better now. I just have to trust that
the
> mechanic & machinist do not burn me. But I am pretty good about
> reading body language and knowing when I should put faith in
> something (or maybe I have been just lucky).
>
> It was like back in the 90's when I went Electric. After you do
the
> research and your homework, you just have to have a little
faith
> baby and go for it.
>
> ta
> -Bruce
>
>
>
>
> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> ===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
Check this out!
http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/electrocharger/electrocharger.php
The first photo appears to be a Lynch, the second photo further down the
page appears to be an Etek.
...
Roy LeMeur
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
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Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Does the conversion run? If so what is the performance like? I've
been trying to find anyone that has one to talk about. It sounds
like what they advertised. If it was converted by Wilderness EV it
sounds terrible. Is it possible it was done by someone else with a
Wilderness kit? It sure sounds like the Wilderness kit done by a
newbie. Still for 2500 if it runs and had 15 miles usable range on
flat ground it'd be worth it. Did this one have a clutch or clutchless?
The car was purchased directly from Wilderness EV and had been
converted by them. It ran when it arrived, though it has been
partially disassembled now for upgrading to 72 Volts per their
instructions. On 36 Volts it would do about 30-35 mph, on 72 Volts
it went over 60mph. He never tested the range. I saw those
temporary terminals in the Wilderness EV kit when it was first
mentioned on the EVDL and I figured they were the newbies. It does
have a clutch, otherwise with a no controller setup it would be
completely undriveable. Keep in mind this is not a contactor
controlled system, at least not what we would consider one to
be. Turning on the ignition switch turns on the motor. Speed is
controlled by slipping the clutch and shifting gears. The
accelerator pedal, as delivered, did nothing. I guess you could
consider it a single speed contactor controller, though I would think
that would mean the accelerator would switch the motor on and
off. He has purchased an Altrax controller and I was invited over to
suggest how to install it.
Darin wrote:
Just out of curiousity, is the actual owner of the Metro also
dissapointed and angry about the car?
The owner was simply not aware of what was wrong. He is very very
new to EVs, just saw one of ours once at a display and purchased this
car without discussing it with any of our chapter members. He seems
very philosophical about it, but I doubt he would recommend any
follow his example. :)
I'm just wondering if he/she made an informed decision in acquiring
a very low-budget conversion, or whether the specs, performance &
quality of the vehicle came as a surprise after the fact (safety
issues notwithstanding).
I don't think this would could be called an informed decision.
David Dymaxion wrote:
Sounds like a case of getting what you pay for. Did $2500 include the
car, too? If so that's mighty cheap!
$2500 included a scrap yard 1994 Metro, six Exide batteries, and the
assorted components I described. I have seen many far nicer and far
more capable EVs sell for a fraction of this amount.
Have you contacted the E-volks folks? Maybe this is a case of
environmental enthusiasm but not knowing what standard safe
electrical practices are. They might appreciate the benefits of your
knowledge and experience.
Since it is not my car, I don't think it is my place to do so. I
don't believe they would care anyway, this looks like a rig up from
scrap just to make money. Some things can be blamed on ignorance,
but this is just way too much.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
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I'll admit I've gotten out of the habit of listening to the US President's
State of the Union Address in the past few years, among other reasons
because the current president's delivery pattern just rubs me the wrong
way. Something about uncontrollable twitching when I hear "nukular" I
suppose.
But a few moments ago, Mark Farver informed me that yesterday's was one I
shouldn't have missed, and I'm surprised that it doesn't seem to have been
brought up on the list today. About 3/4 of the way through the speech,
Bush actually mentioned plans to "increase our research in better
batteries for hybrid and electric cars" among other energy initiatives
(nuclear, hydrogen, wind, solar, methanol, etc).
Maybe I'm overreacting, and I realize it's just one sentence in a speech,
but just that he included the terms "better batteries" and "electric cars"
in the same sentence during such an important address seems absolutely
huge to me. This wasn't an off-the-cuff comment; I think it's safe to
assume this was a speech worked over word-for-word, for days if not weeks.
Could this imply even a small shift in policy? Perhaps this might bring a
little less of the hydrogen extremism in government grant spending that
killed so much battery research in the past few years...
What do folks here think about this? Am I reading too much into this?
Positve and negative opinions welcome. (I guess if it's *really* negative,
maybe mail me privately...)
--chris
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