EV Digest 5138
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Increasing Range
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: RPM/efficiency, was: Safe Rev limit for 8 inch ADC
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: RPM/efficiency, was: Safe Rev limit for 8 inch ADC
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: RPM/efficiency for ADC
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: RPM/efficiency for ADC
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Steve's WarP 11, was motor/controller
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: HV dc converter on eBay
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Blow DC converter question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: RPM/efficiency for ADC, Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: RPM/efficiency for ADC
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Lipo batteries
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Blow DC converter question
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Batteries anyone?
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Blow DC converter question
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Increasing Range
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Hey man, your car is on fire !
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Hey man, your car is on fire !
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Blow DC converter question
by Tim Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> On 1/29/06, John G. Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> At 07:43 AM 1/29/2006, Jeff Shanab wrote:
>> >How much range could be had if EVERYTHING except drive was on it's own
>> >36V pack.
>>
>> Not much, since the Heater runs off pack voltage, it's the worst
>> offender. Everything else only draws like 1-2A from the pack.
>
> It would be a shame to fit a load of extra batteries, and then use up
> most of their energy with a heater. Maybe consider a little fuel
> powered heater such as a webasto?
Or perhaps a warm coat?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The efficiency of ADC motors is a curve with a peak typically around
4,000-4,500 rpms.
The efficiency drops of rapidly at higher RPMs and slowly at lower RPMs.
Running near the red line is just about the least efficient point on the
power curve.
> On 5:18:40 pm 01/30/06 "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I would say don't go above 7000 rpms. If you are not over voltaging
>> there is not much torque above 5000 rpms. For efficiency run the
>> motor between 3800 and 4600 rpms.
>
> Is this true?
>
> My understanding has been that for efficiency, you want to be running up
> toward the redline, where you are running out of torque. You get high
> efficiency at the cost of power.
>
> Why would upshifting to a taller gear to maintain a midrange RPM be more
> efficient than staying in a lower gear and running 6000RPM or so? It'd
> certainly perform better and might be a good idea for other reasons, but
> it
> seems like you'd be drawing more amps.
>
> --chris
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Roderick Wilde
>> EV Parts, Inc.
>> www.evparts.com
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 8:00 AM
>> Subject: Safe Rev limit for 8 inch ADC
>>
>>
>> > Does anyone know what the safe upper rev limit is for an 8 inch
>> > ADC motor?
>> > I have a TD-100 tacho/rev limiter which can be set to 5000, 6000,
>> > 7000, 8000 RPM
>> > however I am thinking anything above 6000 could lead to grief.
>> >
>> > Regards, Rod Dilkes
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.22/239 - Release Date:
>> > 1/24/2006
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.22/239 - Release Date:
>> 1/24/2006
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Lee, Rod and Mike -- thanks for the correction.
>
> Not to beat this subject to death, but it's gotten me curious. Are there
> any factors besides the fan that would cause the downslope in efficiency
> after the peak?
>
> For example, if you had no fan, would the efficiency peak be significantly
> higher, or could you perhaps eliminate the peak altogether this way such
> that efficiency ramps up continuously to redline? Or are there other
> properties of the motor that cause the peak?
>
Friction in the bearings, it goes up as RPM increases. Air drag on the
spinning rotor also goes up at higher RPMS. And I'm pretty sure (but not
positive) that magnetic losses also increase at higher RPMs.
At low RPMS your predominant loss is I2R losses due to the higher current
and/or typically lower voltage.
Even motors without internal fans tend to drop off rapidly in efficiency
above a certain RPM.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
Last night I finally got a look at the latest EV to join our chapter
and I have to admit I was quite disappointed and a rather angry. The
car is a Geo Metro converted by E-Volks. It is really hard to see
how they can consider this a completed "turn-key" electric car. This
is what I found:
All battery cable ends are those bolt-on temporary ones. They used
the top post type on the batteries and the side post type for all
loop connections such as the motor, contactor and shunt.
All added low current wiring, such as the ammeter shunt leads,
contactor coil leads, and so forth were wired with speaker wire.
No fuses or circuit breakers in the battery pack wiring, nor in any
added wiring.
Battery interconnect cables routed from front to rear by running
across the passenger side floor.
No batteries secured by any means whatsoever.
The 80 Amp-Hour 12 Volt auxiliary battery, wired to charge from a 2
Amp battery charger.
The 10 Amp pack battery charger connects to the car with alligator clips.
The damaged throttle cable is connected to a pot-box, but the car
doesn't have a controller. It was shipped as a 36 Volt on-off no
controller required.
The drive motor is an old aircraft starter-generator. While the
mount and adapter seem sufficient so far, there was no provision made
to cool the motor.
The rear battery rack seemed fairly well fabricated, but the front
racks were hacked up out of used bed side rails and attached with screws.
No vacuum pump was added to support the existing power brakes. Also,
one of the brake lines had been cut.
The car was still equipped with a full exhaust system, including
muffler and catalytic converter.
The gas tank and filler neck were still in place, and a the uncapped
cut off end of the fuel line was left level with the top of the front
batteries.
Basically, what he has is a dirty Geo Metro with some body damage, an
aircraft starter generator with matching adapter and coupler, an
adjustable 6-72 Volt 5-10 Amp battery charger, a 12 Volt 2 Amp float
battery charger, a 500 Amp Ammeter and shunt, a 50 Volt
Voltmeter, a Kilovac contactor, and six 6 Volt Exide golf-cart
batteries. Not much for $2500 and unlikely to deliver the 35-40 mph,
30 mile range advertised.
This was supposedly a complete EV when purchased. These folks have a
strange idea of what completed means. I guess we really need to
strike these folks as a potential source of
conversions. Unfortunately, I think it has been too long in his
hands for any legal remedy, he has had it for a few months. I have
been trying to come up with an upgrade strategy, I know there isn't
much to work with, but he is in this deep so somehow we have to make
it work. My thinking is, upgrade to 72 Volts, build proper battery
racks up front and a new rack and enclosure in back. Add a
controller, circuit breaker, fuses, vacuum pump, motor blower fan,
DC-DC converter, a proper battery charger, upgraded gages, and new
wiring. We are also going to need to go over the car itself, I am
sure it has some mechanical issues that need to be addressed. And
yes, the exhaust system and gas tank have to go.
72 Volts is pretty low, but I am afraid of over loading the car with
too much weight. If anyone has any additional suggestions, I would
appreciate the input.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, got the point. It was the efficiency point that got my interest. I'll smack
myself with a 2x4
a couple of times to make sure it sinks in. I had no idea on how to get it off
anyway.
For cooling, I bought the same fan used for the ventialtion in the car, a dual
squirrel cage fan.
This way I could control the speed with the same resistor/switch combo used for
the air
conditioning. When I want to get fancy I can get a more purpose built
controller. Hook it in to
some kind of temp monitoring too. I was thinking of using one side for the
motor and the other
side for the electronics package. I could even direct some air over the Zillas
radiator. If one
side is heating up the other is probably too. All I need is my adapter plate to
get going.
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Leave the Fan in the Darn motor!!!
>
> It's there for a reason, and that's good enough for most of us Racers and
> Road runners.
>
> Only serious Racers should remove the fan. And at that I thrash those who do
> for abusing the motor.
>
> Keep in mind a AvDc 9 is a 32 Hp motor, and we stuff 200 + Hp of electrical
> power through them, there is no such thing as enough cooling.
>
> Leave the Fan in unless you are shooting for sub 12 second 1/4 mile times.
>
> Madman
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 3:10 PM
> Subject: Re: RPM/efficiency for ADC
>
>
> > --- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >Advanced DC motor have a built-in fan. That fan wastes a lot of >power on
> unnecessary cooling at
> > high rpm, and thus hurts >efficiency.
> >
> > I plan on using an external fan to cool my ADC 9, would it be advisable to
> remove the internal
> > fan?
> >
> > Is it physically possible? Down side?
> >
> > The motor is not installed yet, so now would be a good time to do it. The
> risk would be that I'd
> > have no backup if my external cooling failed. But if I'm willing to take
> the risk......
> >
> > Dave Cover
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Dave Cover" <>
For cooling, I bought the same fan used for the ventialtion in the car, a
dual squirrel cage fan.
This way I could control the speed with the same resistor/switch combo
used for the air
conditioning.
Hi Dave did I miss somting your motor has not fan ? or your adding a fan for
extra cooling ?
I drive in 2nd with my now very heavy work truck (40 golf cart bats ) and
trailer/lawn mower over 6000 lbs , motor dose fine , I took it 30 miles the
other day in 3ed pulling 180 amps to see how it would do , was hot but
still could put my hand on it , not long , . I wouldn't do it all the time ,
drove home in 2 nd 45mph and was much cooler , could put my hand on it and
leave it . before spending alot of time adding extra fans , I'd first see
how it runs , now if the motor has no fan , then you will need one . For
sure
--- Rich Rudman <>
Leave the Fan in the Darn motor!!!
It's there for a reason, and that's good enough for most of us Racers and
Road runners.
Only serious Racers should remove the fan. And at that I thrash those who
do
for abusing the motor.
Keep in mind a AvDc 9 is a 32 Hp motor, and we stuff 200 + Hp of
electrical
power through them, there is no such thing as enough cooling.
Leave the Fan in unless you are shooting for sub 12 second 1/4 mile
times.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: RPM/efficiency for ADC
> --- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Advanced DC motor have a built-in fan. That fan wastes a lot of >power
> >on
unnecessary cooling at
> high rpm, and thus hurts >efficiency.
>
> I plan on using an external fan to cool my ADC 9, would it be advisable
> to
remove the internal
> fan?
>
> Is it physically possible? Down side?
>
> The motor is not installed yet, so now would be a good time to do it.
> The
risk would be that I'd
> have no backup if my external cooling failed. But if I'm willing to
> take
the risk......
>
> Dave Cover
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Steve,
You are going to find that when running with a larger motor than the 9's you
have more torque at the same hp and rpm then the smaller diameter motors.
I am temporary running a 9-inch while I have my 11.5 inch GE in maintenance
which ran for 30 years. My El Camino is heaver than your truck, but I can run
at 60 mph at 180 amps at 170 volts in 4th gear!!
With the Warp 9, I running at 25 mph at 200 amps at 170 volts in 2nd gear
which is ridiculous, now I know how its feels to drive a EV as many of the
EV'ers with a smaller motor, that may even be in a light weight vehicles that
have to stay in 2nd or 3rd gear.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: STEVE CLUNN<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 2:04 AM
Subject: Re: Steve's WarP 11, was motor/controller
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" >
> George at Netgain mentioned your WarP 11 - said you laid a pretty good
> strip of rubber recently! You'll have to tell us all about it! :)
>
> -Ryan
Hi Ryan and all . I'm just getting to know this motor , it is NOT a 11"
kostove re done , I could never make up my mind what motor I liked better in
the pre zilla days , My second motor was a 11 kostofe ( which I will spell
different each time I use it and hope to get it right once ) . I ran a zapi
with re gen about 10 years ago with both motors. In the truck that went to
BBB it first had a ADC 9" , and 1k 300v zilla which I was running at 264v .
I was getting tire spin in 2nd but not 3rd with this set up . The motor was
acting very funny at 450 battery amps like a boom and you think it can't
run after that. but it did , like nothing happened , I boomed the motor 3
times and then ordered the net gain 11 with BBB 2 weeks away. Net gains 11
has the same bolt pattern . Now with the 11 I'm seeing wheel spin in 3ed (
still 1k ) and I'm feeling like not having a working clutch is going to be
OK . I was having a problem when I'd push the new set up hard , the 1k zilla
was dropping the contactor right when the power would start to come on
strong . When I switched to the 2k zilla, the day before BBB I noticed that
the points on the Albright sw200 had some , what looked like melted steel on
them , almost like welding slag. I had noticed some steel fillings that the
magnetic blow outs in the contactor had collected . I think that this steel
dust may have gotten picked up when the contactor opened while under load on
a test run when the 12v batteries went low . The steel dust had probable
come for all the work I had done , grinding , cutting ect , with the
contactor laying around , just another thing to look out for . The net gain
11 has the same number of com bars as the 9 but they are wider bars as the
diameter of the com is bigger , with this means I don't know. The motor
info says 135 lbs of torque at 72 v compared to the 9's 70 lbs at 72v This
is probable the reason that the 11 in 4th gear feels like the same pull as
the 9 in 2nd . I have the motor voltage set at 170 and a 9 at 170v is
singing , but this 11 kind of feels like its not near full rpm. I would
almost say that the feel of the 11 in 3ed and 4th gears is like the 9 in 1st
and 2nd . 3ed with the 11 has the "run out of toque to soon" feel you get
when in first gear with a 9. of course the MPH is around 80 instead of 40
( 2n gear 9) . I need to get out on the hi way and take it up to top speed
in 3nd , check the amps and then 4 th and check the amps. My gut feel is
that this motor can take more voltage , , or maybe a higher rear. I'm
thinking about 2 11's with series parallel switching , and some big tires
, just so we can pull some big amps at higher speeds , ya I'm hooked ,
got a auto cross that happens in my town once a month . going to be at the
next one , you bet. -
Steve Clunn
I still got one more day at BBB to write about , just no time .
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A little skimpy but it'd do the job. It would be best to have it charging a
battery. It would work on lets say a motorcycle solo. I happen to use one
simular and paid 250 dollars for it. It has worked for 6 years. Mine is a
48v version. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 11:27 PM
Subject: HV dc converter on eBay
Model VI-B62 takes 200-400Vdc input, and the 15Vdc output can be trimmed
down:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7586424501
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Wong wrote:
> I have a 1993 Soleq Evcort electric car... My 40A peak (I think)
> 13.8V DC/DC converter has failed, and I am trying to figure out
> a way to replace it... Here are the options I have thought of:
>
> 1. Add a contactor for a new dcdc converter (a pain, as the main
> control box is specifically designed).
You need to look at the no-load input current of your replacement DC/DC.
Some are low, some are high.
>
> 2. Leave the new dcdc connected directly to the main battery pack
> ALL the time (is this crazy?)
No; if your replacement DC/DC draws low current when there is no load on
its output, then this will work fine. It also obviously needs to be
rated to handle the worst-case maximum battery voltage during charging.
> 3. Find a dcdc converter that is 12v on/off controllable.
Some are, or it can be added fairly easily.
The Vicor modules (or one of their competitors) all have logic level
on/off controls. You would need an optocoupler chip (about $0.50) to
switch it on/off from the 12v side.
> 4. Try to repair the original dcdc controller.
I haven't seen the DC/DC that Soleq used, but in general they did a good
job on their engineering. It may be fairly easy to fix.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave;
As Rich sez" Leave it alone! "I busted mine tearing down the motor. You
have to be damn careful NOT to bust it tearing down the motor, It is only a
crappy whitemetal stuff, NOT aluminum, like I thought. We tried to braze it
together again, but it wouldn't melt, like aluminum. Jim Husted(Thanks Jim)
fixed me up with a new, well, used lightly, new to me, one. A tad smaller
but I'm sure it will work.Shaft size is the same.I found that nines have a
sweet spot, NOT full load, but at about 60 volts in 3rd gear in the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or so, with my old series parallel controller.Could go for
MILES
on the level, IF I found miles of level, like Long Island. NOT CT! Long
Island? Whythehell isn't Long Island a hotbed of EV activity??Flat as
Florida, distances not that long, lottsa supply side stuff, wall-to-wall
traffic 24/7no high speed stuff. For ya left coast folks NY's Long Island is
a 120 mile by about 20wide sand spit off the coast of hilly NY state and CT.
Ideal home for Freedom EV's as Station cars.EVerybody commutes on the Famous
Long Island Rail Road, that isn't one of my many missspellings. It was
chartered in 1830 something, when railroads were Rail Roads, STILL under the
origional charter!Most of it runs on 700 volts third rail, today.Maybe we
have some newbees from Wrong Island here?I grew up there, when it was rural,
potato fields everywhere. My starter motor go kart could go unnoticed down
back roads, down to the bay, Great South Bay. Still there, but not for us
common folks, million dollar SUV houses(Mc Mansions)As the guy said" You
can't go home again" Spent many idalic hours sailing on the bay as a kid.Ah,
non electric memories.Back to the story;
Motor is spread all over the garage floor, had the output, bigger,
bearing resurfaced at the machine shop, to take care of the 8 thou slop, in
the inner race. Just picked up from my local VW garu a 16 valve Surraco
Pressure Plate, a Jetta clutch plate, a Jetta flywheel, as the Clutch plate
IS bigger.YES! Maybe I'll have less slippage. WHYTHEHELL is a 16 valve
"Plate" different than a Whatever, Surraco.But all these cars MUST have more
torque than a lowly Diseasel VW? Off to the shop to have the guy peal off as
much iron as possable to lighten the damn wheel up a bit. VW flywheels are
heavy. Will break away from 54 mph in the quarter!John Wayland and Matt
Greham, don't worry, EVen with a Zilla I don't think ya hafta worry, well I
meant a T Wrecks controller. This should let me keep up with faster traffic.
But a 3100 lb car BEFORE I get in, I can't really expect hot rod
performance, Can I???With the 5 speed all cleaned up, painted a nice forest
green, and lerking on the cellar floor, poised to go in , I should have a
higher top end with the T 145's ready to go in.
Just want all I can get out of the "Led Sled "Rabbit, as a daily driver,
then turn to something newer to put the nicads in.Still have the Plymouth
Sundance Hatchback and the 87 Nissan Sentra to fix up, get ALL my fleet up
an' running.Sentra is getting refabbed battery boxes, new batteries when
it's time comes.Probably put it up for adoption, EVentually, a turnkey
thing.But nobody wants electric cars. Sigh! Bet a Warp 13 inch motor would
run my International Bus camper, just splice it into the driveline? Can you
say " Got Projects?" A zilla? Yeeeha!Probably put that in the
Sundance?Orbitals? Nicads?Go racing, except there arent any Drag strips in
Nimby land Corrupticut.CT Raceway? Thing of the past. Tow about 4 hours to
get to the races.
Got Freedom EV Pix, soon as I figure out a way to set up a link that ya
can download. Don't wanna send 10 MB of ALL the pix, to the List!The Kodak
"Easy Share." Feh! Not THAT easy!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- STEVE CLUNN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Dave did I miss somting your motor has not fan ? or your adding a fan for
> extra cooling ?
Steve
I have an ADC 9" with the regular fan inside. In reading the list for a few
years now, I wanted to
make sure I had plenty of cooling. And I'm always looking for ways to improve
efficiency. I'm up
in CT near Bob R. but in a hillier section. I can't go anywhere without
climbing a hill. It's not
the Rockies, but there are very few flat sections on my commute. And our
summers can be almost as
hot and humid as yours.
I figured overcooling wouldn't hurt. And I could cool the electronics at the
same time. Since I
haven't got the motor installed yet (still waiting for the adapter plate) it's
the perfect time to
do it.
I'm only an hour away from Limerock Park, one of my fantasies is to run the car
on that track.
There's a fairly active Porsche club in the area and I'd like to see if I can
impress anyone. More
fanatasy.
Of course, it's all talk until I actually do it. Lot's of planning while I'm
waiting. Maybe too
much thinking about it. CAN'T WAIT to get started. But I can live vicariously
through the list
members.
Keep up with the lawn mower stories. I have a 6.7" motor destined for my lawn
tractor. I hope to
convert it in between the snow blowing and lawn mowing season.
Thanks for the input
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ray,
Nice looking bike. What voltage are you running and what amps? If you go to
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/ there is a good place to post details and
pictures of your motorcycle.
I agree you might want to look at Kokam's. They have worked well for our
race car. The 40 amp-hr cells might be your best bet. A 74 volt (nominal)
pack would weigh only 35 lbs and give you a 2.96 kW-hr pack.
Cost would be about $4,200 and you would need a BMS.
Clifford Rassweiler
ProEV
7735 NE 8th Ave
Miami, FL 33138, USA
305-756-5256
www.ProEV.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 6:48 PM
Subject: Lipo batteries
Hi
I am new to this group. From the flood of emails, there seems to be a
great source of info within the group. Currently I am looking for lipo
batteries for my converted Honda F4 Sports bike (EZE).
The main batteries on the bike are Odyssey Dry Cells driving twin Etek
motors. I use a pack of NiMh batteries to extend the range of the bike
but am looking at the Lipo batteries from Thunder. Does any one in this
group have experience with Lipo packs, good or bad. Where can you get
them and at what size/price. They are quite expensive and appear to need
a good bms.
Ray Wong P.Eng
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
With a free 1 GB, there's more in store with Yahoo! Mail.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim,
I agree with Lee in that the converter may be easy to fix.
Lee: Because the controller sends the 800 Hz PWM signal to the
converter, and the converter is always connected to the pack, is it
possible that the controller is doing all the regulation, and that the
converter is just a set of switching transistors? That might even make
it easier to fix.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, I left out a couple of details
> It might help to know what kind they are? A million Watch Batteries,
> or one forklift battery?
I understand they are EV1 battteries, but don't
know the details.
> Location, Location, Location?
Marry-Land.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Tim:
I too have a '93 Soleq EVcort.
As Soleq's main business was making inverters and DC/DCs for rail
applications, Mr. Ohba's product is still working out there.
There are companies that still support/repair Soleq components.
Don't have any names for you, but last time I googled "Soleq" and "technical
support", I got companies in NJ and TX with websites saying they repaired
Soleq product.
Where are you located?
Marv
Culver City, CA
> From: Tim Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:16:34 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Blow DC converter question
>
> I have a 1993 Soleq Evcort electric car. It was converted by the now out of
> business company Soleq. My 40A peak (i think) 13.8V DC/DC converter has
> failed, and I am trying to figure out a way to replace it.
>
> Soleq implemented it rather strangely - the main battery pack is connected
> to the converter at all times, but when the accessory battery closes the main
> contactor, the motor controller sends a 800hz PWM square wave to the dcdc
> converter, and it starts generating 12v and charging the accessory battery.
>
> Additionally, some functions operate when the key is off (from the battery)
> â
> voltage and current sense when charging, automatic seatbelts, door lights,
> flashers, etc.
>
> Here are the options I have thought of:
>
> 1 Add a contactor for a new dcdc converter (a pain, as the main control box is
> specifically designed).
>
> 2 Leave the new dcdc connected directly to the main battery pack ALL
> the time (is this crazy?)
>
> 3 Find a dcdc converter that is 12v on/off controllable.
>
> 4 Try to repair the original dcdc controller.
>
> Any opinions on the options? Anyone have any suggestions for specific
> converters that are good?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Tim
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in the success or failure of
E-volks.
Sounds like a case of getting what you pay for. Did $2500 include the
car, too? If so that's mighty cheap!
Have you contacted the E-volks folks? Maybe this is a case of
environmental enthusiasm but not knowing what standard safe
electrical practices are. They might appreciate the benefits of your
knowledge and experience.
--- Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> Last night I finally got a look at the latest EV to join our
> chapter
> and I have to admit I was quite disappointed and a rather angry.
> The
> car is a Geo Metro converted by E-Volks. It is really hard to see
> how they can consider this a completed "turn-key" electric car.
> This
> is what I found:
>
> All battery cable ends are those bolt-on temporary ones. They used
>
> the top post type on the batteries and the side post type for all
> loop connections such as the motor, contactor and shunt.
>
> All added low current wiring, such as the ammeter shunt leads,
> contactor coil leads, and so forth were wired with speaker wire.
>
> No fuses or circuit breakers in the battery pack wiring, nor in any
>
> added wiring.
>
> Battery interconnect cables routed from front to rear by running
> across the passenger side floor.
>
> No batteries secured by any means whatsoever.
>
> The 80 Amp-Hour 12 Volt auxiliary battery, wired to charge from a 2
>
> Amp battery charger.
>
> The 10 Amp pack battery charger connects to the car with alligator
> clips.
>
> The damaged throttle cable is connected to a pot-box, but the car
> doesn't have a controller. It was shipped as a 36 Volt on-off no
> controller required.
>
> The drive motor is an old aircraft starter-generator. While the
> mount and adapter seem sufficient so far, there was no provision
> made
> to cool the motor.
>
> The rear battery rack seemed fairly well fabricated, but the front
> racks were hacked up out of used bed side rails and attached with
> screws.
>
> No vacuum pump was added to support the existing power brakes.
> Also,
> one of the brake lines had been cut.
>
> The car was still equipped with a full exhaust system, including
> muffler and catalytic converter.
>
> The gas tank and filler neck were still in place, and a the
> uncapped
> cut off end of the fuel line was left level with the top of the
> front
> batteries.
>
> Basically, what he has is a dirty Geo Metro with some body damage,
> an
> aircraft starter generator with matching adapter and coupler, an
> adjustable 6-72 Volt 5-10 Amp battery charger, a 12 Volt 2 Amp
> float
> battery charger, a 500 Amp Ammeter and shunt, a 50 Volt
> Voltmeter, a Kilovac contactor, and six 6 Volt Exide golf-cart
> batteries. Not much for $2500 and unlikely to deliver the 35-40
> mph,
> 30 mile range advertised.
>
> This was supposedly a complete EV when purchased. These folks have
> a
> strange idea of what completed means. I guess we really need to
> strike these folks as a potential source of
> conversions. Unfortunately, I think it has been too long in his
> hands for any legal remedy, he has had it for a few months. I have
>
> been trying to come up with an upgrade strategy, I know there isn't
>
> much to work with, but he is in this deep so somehow we have to
> make
> it work. My thinking is, upgrade to 72 Volts, build proper
> battery
> racks up front and a new rack and enclosure in back. Add a
> controller, circuit breaker, fuses, vacuum pump, motor blower fan,
> DC-DC converter, a proper battery charger, upgraded gages, and new
> wiring. We are also going to need to go over the car itself, I am
>
> sure it has some mechanical issues that need to be addressed. And
> yes, the exhaust system and gas tank have to go.
>
> 72 Volts is pretty low, but I am afraid of over loading the car
> with
> too much weight. If anyone has any additional suggestions, I would
>
> appreciate the input.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Emmissions requirements vary from state to state and often from city to
city. My 2001 5 speed Insight is ULEV rated. The Prius and CVT Insights
are SULEV rated. I have not had to have mine emmissions tested, but I think
that all new cars get a 5 year free pass on this where I am located
(Vancouver WA). We'll see next time my tags come up for renewel if I have
to take it in or not.
damon
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Increasing Range
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 05:19:09 -0700 (MST)
I was under the impression that the TOyota and Honda hybrids surpased the
emmissions requirements, receiving ultra low emmissions ratings or some
such.
> I'd be interested to see the power and torque curves of those ICE
> machines.
> It wouldn't surprise me to find that they were less efficient than some
of
> the well tuned ICE only engines running around. Back in the early I
> remember having a friend that got ~60mpg in her Honda Civic. The reason
I
> say this is because I'm not sure the Hybrid engines have to meet the
> strict
> emissions control restrictions the regular ICE cars do. Does anyone
have
> these curves or can comment on them?
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, AK.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of mike golub
> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 5:55 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Increasing Range
>
>
> Does pulse and glide help ev's?
>
> http://www.metrompg.com/posts/pulse-and-glide.htm
>
>
> --- Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Around Jan. 21, there was a thread called "is this a
>> good idea?" about
>> putting batteries AFTER the controller. I think Lee
>> Hart responded on Jan
>> 21. saying that it would be possible. Could you put
>> your 30 cells after the
>> controller and follow Lee's plan?
>>
>> Bill Dennis
>>
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why argue with me Roger???
Why why Why?
You just spent a page saying that with Special efforts... I could be wrong.
The point is the Curtii got hammered, and the simple contactor safety was
the main culprit.
Yes, one can find away to make this safe without precharging on every cycle,
But those that use the "clank clank "control Scheme most likely don't
Get the precharge concepts anyways. Since Curtis does require it most don't
think it's needed.
The way it's supposed to work is your controller get sonly one precahrge
cycle on power up, and stays charged for the entire use cycle.
This is is how you reduce the inrush stress on the whole system.
Yes you need to beable to key off a runaway, That goes without saying much.
As your voltage gets higher and higher, the amount of power used in your
precharge to get the job done in adequate time.. aka not noticable while
driving and shifting gets insane.
So every one that is running over about 144 volts should not use the main
contactor on every power cycle. Plus those of us who design controllers have
REQUIRED that you do it our way.
We do have reasons. Those reasons are valid for Curtii controllers also.
Fuses and properly sized breakers are used to prevent run a ways.
Key off should always open all the contactors anyways.
Rich Rudamn
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 12:03 PM
Subject: RE: Hey man, your car is on fire !
> Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > This story is WHY you should not have a contactor that cycles
> > on every power application.
>
> Not quite; this is why you shouldn't ever apply power to a Curtis
> without using a precharge resistor.
>
> It is quite possible to have a contactor open each time the throttle is
> released without undue wear and tear on the controller as long as it
> leaves traction power connected to the controller through the precharge
> resistor.
>
> For instance, have one contactor (e.g. pack -ve) controlled by the
> keyswitch and another (pack +ve) by the potbox microswitch. Wire the
> precharge resistor and the precharge relay across the pack +ve contactor
> such that when the +ve contactor opens the controller is left connected
> to the pack via the precharge resistor. The caps cannot now discharge
> while you have your foot off the throttle at a light and the car cannot
> runaway since if any real current draw is attempted through the
> precharge resistor the voltage to the controller will sag to nothing
> and/or the precharge resistor will fail open. If needed the car can
> always be completely shut down by turning off the keyswitch and dropping
> out the pack -ve contactor.
>
> > We use the key switch to enable and pull in the contactor. or
> > more correctly to allow the controller to pre charge itself.
> > If if can't precharge.. it won't pull in the contactor. The
> > Zilla and the Raptor/Rex series controllers would drop the
> > contactor if the micro saw a error or failure in progress.
>
> This scheme works fine until the micro loses its mind and holds the
> contactor in despite other errors or failures...
>
> If a controller with "intelligent" precharge is used, the potbox
> microswitch could probably be used in series with the keyswitch to
> toggle the controller's enable line. If the caps don't have time to
> discharge significantly while the throttle is released (e.g. sitting at
> a light), the delay to re-precharge them when the throttle is pressed
> should be minimal. However, if you rely on the controller enable line
> to shut down the controller in the event of a failure resulting in a
> runaway, you are betting on the failure not affecting the micro and its
> ability to control the contactor, so the benefit of this scheme is
> significantly less than if the potbox microswitch controls a contactor
> directly.
>
> I expect that with controllers that look after precharge themselves,
> disconnecting pack voltage by opening a contactor when the throttle is
> released while keeping the enable line powered would probably result the
> micro declaring some sort of failure and locking out the controller
> until it is reset. So, even with a controller that looks after
> precharge itself, it might not be totally unreasonable to use the same
> setup as with a Curtis, but substitute a simple fuse for the precharge
> resistor: when the throttle is released, the contactor opens and leaves
> the pack connected to the controller via a small value fuse (e.g. 10A)
> such that if the controller fails/has failed and attempts to draw any
> real current the small fuse opens and halts the vehicle. Let the
> controller have control over the contactor in the other pack supply lead
> so that if it detects a fault it can also halt the vehicle.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It depends on the controller and the voltage.
I have seen a dangerous voltage on the power satge for as long as 15
minutes. But they do bleed down.
Our chargers bleed down in about 5 minutes. Wayland used a PFC charger to
bleed down a Zilla power stage at a race once, I found that fact rather Odd.
Most of us don't have a bleed down circuit pre say, we just have voltage
scaling resistors that do that function anyways.
In a circuit that has to be safe in a minium time, Of course we use bleed
down circuits, but... they are not part of the normal design. Since this is
a waste of power..
The less losses the better.
Where parasitic power losses are not a concern, and hands on saftey is
required, then Yea real fast and safe bleed off is manditory.
We will be using our precharge circuit for bleed off in our 75Kw charger. On
a trip or disconnect we want the Dangerous voltages wiped away in fractions
of seconds.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "MIKE & PAULA WILLMON" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: Hey man, your car is on fire !
> Just out of curiosity how long typically do the caps stay charged in the
Curtis, Raptor and Zilla's when disconnected from the pack? Do they have a
designed in bleed off circuit?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 12:43 pm
> Subject: Re: Hey man, your car is on fire !
> To: [email protected]
>
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> > > What you did was kill your Curtis with that contactor. Every time
> > > you put your foot on the Juice the contactor comes in and does a
> > > VIOLENT precharge of the Caps in the Curtiss.
> > >
> > > This story is WHY you should not have a contactor that cycles on
> > > every power application. Curtis controllers don't have much
> > capacitor,> and they don't like being hammered every couple of
> > seconds while
> > > driving.
> >
> > I don't recall whether he said he had a precharge resistor across the
> > contactor or not. If he *did* have this resistor, then the capacitors
> > will remain charged with the contactor off, and there isn't a problem
> > with extra strain on them.
> >
> > If he did *not* have a precharge resistor across the contactor,
> > then the
> > controller's capacitors would slowly discharge whenever he
> > released the
> > potbox. He would then get a very high current surge to recharge them
> > when the contactor pulled in again. This would indeed be hard on the
> > capacitors and the contactor.
> > --
> > If you would not be forgotten
> > When your body's dead and rotten
> > Then write of great deeds worth the reading
> > Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> > -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for all the helpful information!! I got online late this morning and a
whole discussion had already went on.
Lee - any general suggestions on repair? As soon as I hook it to the mains, it
blows an internal 15A fuse. The 108V pack voltage goes to a bank of 20 high
power
transitors, then to a smaller circuit that I think is the control cirguit. I
thought
I had struck gold when I found a couple of blown diodes, but when I replaced
them
I had the same problem...
Mike - Soleq called the 800hz a "Synch" signal, which I assumed was just the
switching frequency, but I don't know for sure. It is a bit of a struggle to
figure
out a problem without the diagram. Also, I am not an electrical engineer...
Marv - I am in Oakland, ca. We have already communicated via email once -
you sent me a bunch of schematics. I'll look into the repair people- that is a
good idea...
also - anyone know of a list of auto grade dc dc converter makers?
thanks agian for all the ideas -
Tim
-----Original Message-----
>From: Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Feb 1, 2006 7:10 AM
>To: EV Discussion <[email protected]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Blow DC converter question
>
>Hey Tim:
>
>I too have a '93 Soleq EVcort.
>
>As Soleq's main business was making inverters and DC/DCs for rail
>applications, Mr. Ohba's product is still working out there.
>
>There are companies that still support/repair Soleq components.
>
>Don't have any names for you, but last time I googled "Soleq" and "technical
>support", I got companies in NJ and TX with websites saying they repaired
>Soleq product.
>
>Where are you located?
>
>Marv
>Culver City, CA
>
>> From: Tim Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:16:34 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Blow DC converter question
>>
>> I have a 1993 Soleq Evcort electric car. It was converted by the now out of
>> business company Soleq. My 40A peak (i think) 13.8V DC/DC converter has
>> failed, and I am trying to figure out a way to replace it.
>>
>> Soleq implemented it rather strangely - the main battery pack is connected
>> to the converter at all times, but when the accessory battery closes the main
>> contactor, the motor controller sends a 800hz PWM square wave to the dcdc
>> converter, and it starts generating 12v and charging the accessory battery.
>>
>> Additionally, some functions operate when the key is off (from the battery)
>> â
>> voltage and current sense when charging, automatic seatbelts, door lights,
>> flashers, etc.
>>
>> Here are the options I have thought of:
>>
>> 1 Add a contactor for a new dcdc converter (a pain, as the main control box
>> is
>> specifically designed).
>>
>> 2 Leave the new dcdc connected directly to the main battery pack ALL
>> the time (is this crazy?)
>>
>> 3 Find a dcdc converter that is 12v on/off controllable.
>>
>> 4 Try to repair the original dcdc controller.
>>
>> Any opinions on the options? Anyone have any suggestions for specific
>> converters that are good?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Tim
>>
>
--- End Message ---
