EV Digest 5174
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto Show
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Fwd: re: UHMW in heater core
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Changing Subject Lines & Inappropriate Replies
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Materials
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Vegetable oil as replacement for gasoline heater.
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: What an EV filled day!
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Anyone else been spammmed RE: LiPo? New co. in China?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Controlling ceramic heaters, was UHMW in heater core
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto Show
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Controlling ceramic heaters, was UHMW in heater core
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Has anyone done research on mini/micro turbines to recharge a
battery pack?
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Controlling ceramic heaters, was UHMW in heater core
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Lithiums in Parallel (was: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) EV Assistance in West San Fernando Valley
by "Dr. Andy Mars" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Anyone else been spammmed RE: LiPo? New co. in China?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Controlling ceramic heaters, was UHMW in heater core
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Busted in Blue Meanie! Me too. Busted in the Electravan.
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Controlling ceramic heaters, was UHMW in heater core
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Battery price increase
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: capacitor packs
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Controlling ceramic heaters, was UHMW in heater core
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto Show
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re:No demand?
by "Robert Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Has anyone done research on mini/micro turbines to recharge a battery
pack?
by paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Changing Subject Lines & Inappropriate Replies
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Local TdS entry makes good ;-) From the Philadelphia Inquirer ...
The little hybrid car that could
At Phila. Auto Show, a high school standout.
Posted on Sun, Feb. 05, 2006
By Akweli Parker
Inquirer Staff Writer
One of the most impressive cars at this week's Philadelphia Auto Show
doesn't come from Japan, Germany or Detroit.
It came from the auto shop at West Philadelphia High School.
:
:
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/13796737.htm
--
Mike Bianchi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> PWM the blower speed?
That should work fine!
However, the resistor normally used to control blower speed are an
appropriate technology for a heater. The resistors are mounted in the
duct, and so contribute to the heat production. They don't cause an
efficiency loss because you want the heat anyway.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice try, but a while back I suggested people not hit 'Reply' on
messages when it wasn't actually a _reply_; most people just wanted to
post a new (unrelated) topic to the list, but found the easiest
(laziest) option was to simply hit 'reply' on any random message. This
causes threading problems since many email clients use the 'In-Reply-To'
field of the email to properly thread the messages. Responses were
typical: "Your email client is broken" (it's not, and I've _written_
email clients), or "golly, works okay for me, why should I change?"
This problem is persistent and wide-spread.
I suspect your suggestion will also fall by the wayside, though I agree
with you whole-heartedly. I often have the opposite problem: An
interesting thread buried inside an uninteresting one.
Personally, I'd like to see the moderation rules of the list changed so
that persons who simply hit reply and respond with something that is OT
to the _thread_ be warned, and (if it persists) unsubscribed from the
list.
Electro Automotive wrote:
Just a reminder: when you take off on a tangent from a discussion
thread, change the subject line to relfect this, possibly adding
(WAS...whatever) after the new subject. Probably a lot of people skip
posts that don't interest them. When the content wanders far afield,
they may miss posts they WOULD like to read, or open ones they don't
care about. For example, I want to keep following anytthing about the
Monster Garage episode, but I really don't care about lithium
batteries in scooters.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
two thoughts on materials mentioned here.
Fiberglass flammability. Doesn't that depend on if it is polyester vs
epoxy based?
That said, there is a mica board used in the construction of
commutators, That I would say is worht looking at.
FWIW, the epoxy fiberglass that circuit boards are made of is rather
non-flammable. It'll burn and char in response to heat (like a smoking
component), but I've never seen a board itself catch on fire. Can't
really comment on the conformal coatings used on boards.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael A. Radtke wrote:
However, please understand that the diesel versions of these heaters are
smoky and smelly at startup and shutdown. With diesel, that means a
smell like you'd expect and soon learn to hate. The biodiesel does not
smell like french fries as folks have said, but more like smoking,
overheated vegetable oil. Even if only at start up and shut down,
neither of these smells is desirable.
I think the french fry smell was from running Diesel engines directly on
used cooking oil. Diesel himself used peanut oil.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ricky,
Trailering is fine with me, I don't care how your Saturn EV gets here, I would
love to see it. Maybe come down for the Earth Day parade... or even next club
meeting to go to support Dennis and his Current Eliminator at Tucson Raceway
(March 11)
I just googled the distance from Johns house to Casa Grande (Florence Blvd and
W 2nd St) and got a distance of 64.64 miles.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricky Suiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: What an EV filled day!
> Well, this is a possible future idea. Right now with 2 year old batteries the
> range is down to about 40 miles according to Greg (which is still pretty dang
> good). This is a thought for the future when it is time for him to get a new
> pack for the car.
>
> I'm also considering maybe one time trailering my Saturn down there as well.
> Does that defeat the purpose?
>
>
> Later,
> Ricky
>
> Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ricky and Greg -
>
> It was great having you both down here. We got lots of new input and can't
> wait to see Greg's VW again when you use your double charging idea at Casa
> Grande.
>
> John and I are putting in a 220 v outlet at his house so we can do some fast
> charging, so next month think about bringing down Greg's VW.
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail
> Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Why in the world anyone would fuse the cells for half of the
> possible current drawn from them?
You *normally* size fuses for less than the peak current. Otherwise, the
fuse will never blow, even if there is an overload.
You normally size a fuse to hold with the *average* current you will be
using. Then, you pick the speed of the fuse to handle the brief peaks.
For instance, you'd use a slow-blow fuse for a motor, because it draws a
high starting current. You use a fast-blow fuse for an electronic
controller, because it should electronically limit the peak current (and
if it doesn't, something is wrong!)
For example, an EV with a Curtis 1221 controller could draw 400 amps
peak; but the battery fuse is 300 amps. That's because under normal
conditions, the controller won't draw its peak 400 amps for more than a
fraction of a second. The fuse will hold in for these brief peaks. But
if the controller fails, it *can* draw a sustained current of well over
400 amps. At a 2:1 overload, that 300 amp fast-blow fuse will blow in
about 1 second. In this case, the purpose of the fuse is to limit the
damage to the controller, (and perhaps keep you from driving through
your garage door).
The consideration with the battery fuses in this discussion were that
you need to size the fuse to protect the *battery* from damage. So, you
want the fuse to blow *before* the battery fails, because a battery
failure with lithiums can be catastrophic.
But folks like the Monster Garage EVers are deliberately trying to get
as much current as possible for drag racing. This can put them outside
of the normal range of sanity. They are willing to take an "acceptable
risk" to win a race. (Jesse might have actually liked it better if the
lithium packs *did* explode or catch fire -- on camera, of course).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please, let's be cautious about discussions of such matters as the political
environment of countries where products are manufactured.
I personally consider this in purchasing decisions, and I'm sure others do
too, though certainly the level of priority varies. I would like it if we
could discuss it thoughtfully here, especially since so many advanced EV
batteries are already or soon will be manufactured in China. However, these
discussions have caused significant contention on this list before and I'm
leery about reopening these matters.
Some have also argued that it is at least partly off topic. I don't
entirely agree but I respect their concerns.
There are resources on the web which discuss the issue of working conditions
in cheap-labor countries, especially Asian nations, and I would encourage
those concerned to carry out some research.
However, because of the potential to cause unnecessary controversy on the
list, and in deference to those who believe it's off topic, please try to
discuss these matters in private email.
Thanks.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 14 Feb 2006 at 1:04, Chris Robison wrote:
> Not to keep beating a dead horse, but what about varying the input voltage and
> controlling for power?
I guess I don't quite understand this longing to control PTC heat output
with PWM on the element. To me, controlling the heat output using blower
speed is wonderfully simple, direct, even elegant.
The first PTC heater I examined was one of the early Pelonis "Disc Furnace"
units. This was nearly 20 years ago, before Pelonis transferred
manufacturing to China, when they cost something like $100. I was rather
impressed by the smoothly variable speed fan and the way the output
temperature remained comfortably high, while air velocity and BTU output
fell, when it was turned down.
PTC elements are relatively easy to use in a conversion EV, as long as you
can readily get to the plenum to fit the element. You need only a relay
stout enough to handle the full cold current, pulled in by turning on the
blower switch. In most cases where the car's factory blower has 3 or more
speeds, that's all the temperature control you need. You can put the old
liquid heater's temp lever to some other nefarious use. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a very flashy K1 Attack Kit car which sells for $80k (body,
interior, frame etc.). It is rear engine design with a VTEC motor. Not
sure where the kids got the funding from to purchase the car.
It reminds me of WrightSpeed project based on the existing Arial Atom. The
kids project was to install a motor in the front of the already existing K1
Attack. Both are conversion projects.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of M Bianchi
Sent: February 14, 2006 7:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto
Show
Local TdS entry makes good ;-) From the Philadelphia Inquirer ...
The little hybrid car that could
At Phila. Auto Show, a high school standout.
Posted on Sun, Feb. 05, 2006
By Akweli Parker
Inquirer Staff Writer
One of the most impressive cars at this week's Philadelphia Auto
Show
doesn't come from Japan, Germany or Detroit.
It came from the auto shop at West Philadelphia High School.
:
:
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/13796737.htm
--
Mike Bianchi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart said:
>> Examples of things that can go wrong [snip]:
Chris Robison wrote:
> Would you consider an appropriately rated thermal fuse (to handle
> overheat situations) plus standard fuses (to handle shorts, arcs,
> etc) to provide an acceptable way to deal with these risks?
Sure (the key words being "appropriately sized").
Many of these heaters have been UL tested, and passed. That means when
used *normally*, they are reasonably safe and unlikely to cause a fire,
short, or electrocute anyone. You can tip them over on a newspaper,
leave them out in the rain, or wrap them in a blanket and nothing really
bad happens.
But, you should look at what they did in the design of these heaters to
pass these tests. They added a tilt switch, to turn it off if it tips
over. They added a fuse, to cut power if it draws too much current. They
added a thermal switch, to turn it off if it overheats or the fan fails.
They picked materials to mount the heating element that won't melt or
burn.
If you want to use one of these ceramic cores in your EV, then you need
to do the same sort of things.
1. You need to operate it within the same voltage range. The stock
"115vac" rating expects a 10-20% variation, so 90-132v should be
acceptable (or double this for elements in series, etc.)
2. The stock fuse, switch, and thermal switch are not DC rated. They
must be replaced with parts that *are* rated for your DC pack
voltage and current.
3. A car shouldn't need a tilt switch; but you *do* need a screen or
guard to keep debris out of the heater. Junk on a water-based heater
core is a nuisance, but is a fire and short circuit hazard on a
ceramic element!
4. The stock car's heating ducts probably use cheaper plastics than
the electric heater. They didn't worry about fire or electrical
shorts, and the water-based heater can't exceed about 230 deg.F.
So your overtemperature sensing is going to have to be more
conservative.
5. If your overcurrent and overtemperature sensors don't directly
cut power (i.e. they depend on a relay), then you have to do some
extra work to be sure they actually work. For instance, if the
same overcurrent that opens the switch also welds the control
relay, it won't work!
>> PWM works, but not very well.
> what about varying the input voltage and controlling for power?
> I guess what I'm getting at is adding inductance to the load and/or
> capacitance across the PWM output, to handle the peak current problem.
What you're missing is that the ceramic element is designed to produce
the same wattage despite changes in voltage. However you change the
voltage or airflow, it adjusts it resistance to maintain temperature.
> So, perhaps if you want 10% power you'd be at 1% duty cycle, 50%
> power might be at 8% duty cycle, 80% would be 30%, 95% would be
> 65% duty cycle and so on (making these numbers up, I know I'd have
> to figure them out in testing).
Yes, PWM certainly lowers the wattage. But it takes a big reduction in
on-time to get a small reduction in heat output. And, the short on-time
leads to much higher peak current while it is on. It can still be made
to work, but you're fighting the system.
> I feel like heater control is something for which a solid state
> solution should exist, which gives equal or superior capability
> compared with a ICE heater core, and that solution shouldn't have
> to require the use of a nichrome wire heater.
If you want to use PWM to control heat, then a nichrome heating element
is exactly what you want.
If you want it to be self-limiting, put that nichrome element in water.
It can't exceed 212 deg.F as long as there is any water (and you can
easily detect if you run out of water.
Or use the transistors themselves as your heating elements. 1kw worth of
transistors is under $10 nowdays. Mount them on a finned heatsink, and
there's your solid-state heater. Trivially easy to control, too!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
The capstone microturbine is not THAT efficient. On Natural gas, the
exhaust temp is 900 degrees F.
In stationary applications that is great, like 1 capstone for 4 houses
provides all the electricity and hot water and hotwater needed for
heating for all 4 houses. Excess heat can even be used to cool.
Now if we can just figure out how to "co-generate" on the fly. Some kind
of heat battery; a sterling generator or thermoeletric or peltier
generator to cool the exhaust.
IF we think about it, and consider a otto cycle engine at 25% eff, that
is still 75% of energy given off as heat. If we could convert 30% of
that to electricity, we could get as much energy as goes into
accelerating AND driving the car, Way more than regen braking is capable
of. On a small scale for a generator trailer, this would also have the
benefit of continuing to charge as engine sits and cools down.
how about modifing one of these?
http://www.microjeteng.com/overview.html
Is this too small? It's ECU-controlled, and they have a varient already
designed for shaft output... these things are used to fly very large
model planes & helicopters.
http://www.wren-turbines.com/MW54.htm
Here is a graph of the output with exhaust temps:
http://www.wren-turbines.com/turbop3.gif
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess I can't explain it either, maybe I'm just weird (it's cool, I
already know). I just know that in the car I drive while my EV conversion
is in progress, on a cold day I often have blower speed high because I
like the airflow, and the heat mixture at the same time being low and
precisely set to my preference, because I don't want so much heat. This
situation, which I use frequently in the winter, would be impossible if
controlling output via airflow.
Mainly though, it's a principle thing. There are a few points that the
mainstream feels are "problems" with EVs, range being the most obvious.
Our answer to date is to tell people that they don't need more range. I'm
ok with this and I personally believe it, but it's still a case where
we're trying to tell people what they want -- something I have a bit of a
problem with. I generally want as little of that as possible. "You don't
really want independently adjustable temperature/airflow" is just not a
tenable resolution to me. Although maybe it's something that most EV folks
are OK with, it'd seem like a strange limitation to someone who just wants
a normal car.
I think it's important to demonstrate how "normal" EVs can be, and little
details like this are important to me. I'm ok if no one on this list
agrees.
At any rate, I'm about ready to accept that electric heat via PTC elements
will, in this one way, be inferior to heat in a ICE car if I insist on a
solid-state design. (I could have left in the mixture flap, but I wouldn't
have had room for a large heater like I'm building.) I'll most likely go
with selectively switching the elements for output control which in my
case will probably get me very close to what I want anyway. I just want
to have a full understanding of the situation before I do. I apologize if
the questions are annoying.
--chris
On Tue, February 14, 2006 10:17 am, David Roden said:
> On 14 Feb 2006 at 1:04, Chris Robison wrote:
>
>> Not to keep beating a dead horse, but what about varying the input
>> voltage and
>> controlling for power?
>
> I guess I don't quite understand this longing to control PTC heat output
> with PWM on the element. To me, controlling the heat output using blower
> speed is wonderfully simple, direct, even elegant.
>
> The first PTC heater I examined was one of the early Pelonis "Disc
> Furnace"
> units. This was nearly 20 years ago, before Pelonis transferred
> manufacturing to China, when they cost something like $100. I was rather
> impressed by the smoothly variable speed fan and the way the output
> temperature remained comfortably high, while air velocity and BTU output
> fell, when it was turned down.
>
> PTC elements are relatively easy to use in a conversion EV, as long as you
> can readily get to the plenum to fit the element. You need only a relay
> stout enough to handle the full cold current, pulled in by turning on the
> blower switch. In most cases where the car's factory blower has 3 or more
> speeds, that's all the temperature control you need. You can put the old
> liquid heater's temp lever to some other nefarious use. ;-)
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee stated:
> The consideration with the battery fuses in this discussion were that
> you need to size the fuse to protect the *battery* from
> damage. So, you want the fuse to blow *before* the battery fails, because
> a battery failure with lithiums can be catastrophic.
Agreed.
However I fail to see that a single 10ah Kokam-style cell would be much less
likely to fail shorted than one of 10 1ah cells connected in parallel. At
least in the case of multiple paralleled Lithiums, you "could" fuse them
individually if you wish.
Some questions:
1) Has anyone ever seen or heard of a Lithium battery actually shorting?
2) What is the likelihood of a short as a failure mechanism for a Lithium
batt?
3) Finally, would a 10ah cell fail shorted in a less dangerous way than 10
1ah cells?
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings Fellow EV Enthusiasts,
I'm new to the list and am looking forward to learning and sharing with all
of you.
Also, if any of you are, or know someone who is, interested and able to hire
out for some assistance with my electric conversion, (which is already up
and running), in the West San Fernando Valley of the Los Angeles area,
please let me know.
In particular, I am looking for someone who:
a) is able to help install a 220 outlet in my garage for charging,
b) has experience with the Manzanita Micro PFC 20 Charger and can help me
work it,
c) has experience with the BatMan-EV Battery Manager II and can help me work
it,
&
d) other odds and ends to be determined.
So, do you have knowledge and experience under your belt, time on your
hands, and space in your wallet?
Thanks, in advance, for any assistance.
Until next INTERNEcTion -
Take care (and spread it around) -
Peace,
Andy
Andy Mars, Ph.D. - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Youth Services from Mars
Educational Consulting, Counseling, and Tutoring Services
Students Taking Action & Responsibility Today
Hands-On Community Service Activities for Children
Camp Exploration
Winter, Spring, & Summer Programs
www.KidsMakeADifference.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 12:20:38 -0600, Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Don't post to mailing lists
>using email addresses you can't afford to have spammed.
Knock on wood, I've never gotten spammed from this list.
>Don't post your
>email to websites unless you conceal it from the robots, either by
>adding a human removal block ( ie mfarver_NOSPAM_AT_mindbent.org) which
>people can figure out, but most spammers don't (for some reason). Or
>(less good) by making your email address an image of the text.
No need to inconvenience your users like that. Just use this
javascript function on your "email" button. This script still forks
off the mailer just as clicking on a mailto: would but it's not
(easily) harvestable. If the 'bots ever do start running javascript,
I can think of some other ways of spiffing up this script but for now
this works fine.
The when the button is clicked, the script assembles the email address
and then invokes the mailto: function.
----------
<!-- Link this to your "email button -->
<a href="javascript:snd_email('info')"
<!-- fill in the appropriate text instead of "info" -->
<!------------------------------------------------------
<!-- Mail address obfuscation. -->
<!-- Shamelessly glomed from http://www.rustosis.com/ -->
<!-- Clever Trick -->
<script language=javascript type="text/javascript">
<!--
function snd_email(obviatespam) {
window.location.replace('mailto:' +obviatespam+ '@johngsbbq.com');
<! -- Fill in the appropriate domain instead of "@johngsbbq.com" -->
}
-->
</script>
</script>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:51 AM 2/14/2006, you wrote:
I guess I can't explain it either, maybe I'm just weird (it's cool, I
already know). I just know that in the car I drive while my EV conversion
is in progress, on a cold day I often have blower speed high because I
like the airflow, and the heat mixture at the same time being low and
precisely set to my preference, because I don't want so much heat. This
situation, which I use frequently in the winter, would be impossible if
controlling output via airflow.
Mainly though, it's a principle thing. There are a few points that the
mainstream feels are "problems" with EVs, range being the most obvious.
Our answer to date is to tell people that they don't need more range. I'm
ok with this and I personally believe it, but it's still a case where
we're trying to tell people what they want -- something I have a bit of a
problem with. I generally want as little of that as possible. "You don't
really want independently adjustable temperature/airflow" is just not a
tenable resolution to me. Although maybe it's something that most EV folks
are OK with, it'd seem like a strange limitation to someone who just wants
a normal car.
I think it's important to demonstrate how "normal" EVs can be, and little
details like this are important to me. I'm ok if no one on this list
agrees.
At any rate, I'm about ready to accept that electric heat via PTC elements
will, in this one way, be inferior to heat in a ICE car if I insist on a
solid-state design. (I could have left in the mixture flap, but I wouldn't
have had room for a large heater like I'm building.) I'll most likely go
with selectively switching the elements for output control which in my
case will probably get me very close to what I want anyway. I just want
to have a full understanding of the situation before I do. I apologize if
the questions are annoying.
--chris
The heater core in a "normal" car is at a constant temperature (engine
temp) just like a PTC. The air temp is controlled independently of the
flow rate by changing the percentage of the air flow that goes thru the
heater core.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 09:40:15 -0800, "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How does
>John do it. Totally guilty those devil horns come off and up goes the halo.
>Have to say I'm a little envious of John's way with a word. I'm totally
>innocent and get a ticket & John (guilty as sin) Wayland gets off.
>sheesh.......Lawrence Rhodes....Well at least I look fast.......
>
John gave his big clue. Distract the cop off onto something else, in
John's case, the e-car and the motorized battery tray. That works
well. My red shirt with the John G's logo coupled with my making some
comment about not having seen the cop in my pig palace in awhile has
worked 100% of the time over the last 10 years. Probably 5 or 6
stops, all for chicken-sh*t stuff that is fertile fee grabbing
territory. Last one said, "Get outta here. I can't ticket the guy
who fixes my pig".
Before the restaurant, when I was driving a couple hundred thousand
miles a year, I always had good luck with the old tactic of sheepishly
admitting to whatever I think he stopped me for, giving some lame
excuse ("I was really grooving to the tunes and not watching my
speedo.") and then beg for mercy. I'm not above 30 seconds' groveling
to save a hundred bux :-) The only time I got a ticket that way was
when the cop was obviously on a quota system and needed the points.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, February 14, 2006 11:50 am, Andre' Blanchard said:
> At 10:51 AM 2/14/2006, you wrote:
>>solid-state design. (I could have left in the mixture flap, but I
>> wouldn't
>>have had room for a large heater like I'm building.) I'll most likely go
>>with selectively switching the elements for output control which in my
>>case will probably get me very close to what I want anyway. I just want
>>to have a full understanding of the situation before I do. I apologize if
>>the questions are annoying.
>>
>>
>> --chris
>>
>
>
> The heater core in a "normal" car is at a constant temperature (engine
> temp) just like a PTC. The air temp is controlled independently of the
> flow rate by changing the percentage of the air flow that goes thru the
> heater core.
>
I realize this, as I said I could have left in the mixture flap, and in
this case it would work exactly as a ICE heater does. However, it would
likely operate at a higher temperature, and also it would be inefficient.
Exactly *how* inefficient, and whether or not it's worth worrying about,
is a question I should be asking. Taking the maximum case, how much
current does a single row of 120V PTC elements draw at its terminal
temperature, with no airflow? (Obviously a sensible design would shut off
the heater when the flap is fully closed, but I'd like a simple starting
point).
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Who is your supplier? I'm about due.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:59:18 -0600
Subject: Re: Battery price increase
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:24:42 -0800, you wrote:
>For your information,
>if you are ready to order your batteries:
>My supplier told me that they will raise their prices by
>at least 8% for all batteries due to peaking metal (lead)
>prices and increased fuel (transport) costs.
>
>Lead has recently jumped from $400 to over $1400 per
>metric ton.
>They will take orders for the old prices until March 1st,
>so inquire with your dealer/supplier how much time you
>have before new prices set
Great, hope the tax refund check gets here in time.
Matt Milliron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
1981 Jet Electrica, Ford Escort
My daughter named it, "Pikachu".
It's yellow and black, electric and
contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These are motor run capacitors and probably won't do what you want.
The "protected" means that there is a fusible link inside the can
which will open at only slightly more than the cap's nominal rated
current. Without looking it up, I'd guess about 15 amps max.
Second problem is that the caps probably have internal bleeder
resistors to reduce the chance of shocking the HVAC repairman. You
can tell for sure by ohming the thing. A non-bleeder cap will
eventually go to infinity while an internally bled one will rise to
the bleeder value and stay there. Probably around 10kohm.
All isn't lost, however, if you don't mind a little work. The actual
cap is a tiny thing floating in a can full of oil, connected by foil
leads - the fusible links - to the terminals. They use the big can to
provide the same formfactor as the old paper/oil caps. The bleeder is
usually tied to the inside end of the terminals.
You can cut the cans open, extract the caps, tie them in parallel as
tightly as possible, place them in a suitable container and use the
oil from the cans to submerge them.
I've done this a few times for high energy discharge experimenting.
This type of cap isn't great for that kind of peak current (kilopamps)
but when they're free.... They should do fine for what you're wanting
to do.
Something to keep in mind before you go to a lot of work. The only
way you can extract significant power from a cap bank is to discharge
it to near zero volts. At only a few farads, it won't do much to
stiffen a pack as the delta voltage isn't much. To discharge to near
zero, a special-purpose inverter is needed. Probably a DIY situation.
John
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:54:00 -0600, Matt Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Due to a lucky dumpster dive I am the proud owner of 48 GE
>capacitors. I would like to make a cap pack. My math tells me that I
>should be able to get a little more than 8 Farads out of these. The
>only information I can cross check with is on the MetricMind site. I
>also want to run them in parrallel not series. I know that I am only
>looking at maybe 2 to 5 seconds of power, but heck they were free.
>What do yall think.
>
>
>DIELEKTROL
>GE Capacitor
>61L378
>30uF
>660VAC 60HZ
>PROTECTED P854
>D1000AFC
>
>
>
>Matt Milliron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>1981 Jet Electrica, Ford Escort
>My daughter named it, "Pikachu".
>It's yellow and black, electric and
>contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wouldn't using more heating elements to achieve the same heat output
with a lower wire temperature alleviate the current rise since the
element does not experience as dramatic a temp rise?
This is nichrome wire, right? What temps does a simple room/personal
heater normally run it up to?
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
Yes, PWM certainly lowers the wattage. But it takes a big reduction in
on-time to get a small reduction in heat output. And, the short on-time
leads to much higher peak current while it is on. It can still be made
to work, but you're fighting the system.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, what an utterly BS article. Should be named "The little hybrid
that hasn't yet run". it's crap articles like this that go so far in
dissipating credibility.
John
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:19:58 -0500, M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Local TdS entry makes good ;-) From the Philadelphia Inquirer ...
>
> The little hybrid car that could
> At Phila. Auto Show, a high school standout.
>
> Posted on Sun, Feb. 05, 2006
> By Akweli Parker
> Inquirer Staff Writer
>
> One of the most impressive cars at this week's Philadelphia Auto Show
> doesn't come from Japan, Germany or Detroit.
>
> It came from the auto shop at West Philadelphia High School.
> :
> :
>
> http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/13796737.htm
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wanted to see and try a Ford Escape Hybrid this last weekend. Local FORD
dealer said He will neither stock nor sell the Hybrid. Tech training too
expensive for the expected sales.
This is not a small dealer. Largest within 100 miles.
So which comes first, the demand or the availability? Will not buy if no
warranty service, but no techs if don't buy.
Wonder how general this attitude will be?
Robert Wilson
----- Original Message -----
From: "M Bianchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 9:19 AM
Subject: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto
Show
> Local TdS entry makes good ;-) From the Philadelphia Inquirer ...
>
> The little hybrid car that could
> At Phila. Auto Show, a high school standout.
>
> Posted on Sun, Feb. 05, 2006
> By Akweli Parker
> Inquirer Staff Writer
>
> One of the most impressive cars at this week's Philadelphia Auto Show
> doesn't come from Japan, Germany or Detroit.
>
> It came from the auto shop at West Philadelphia High School.
> :
> :
>
> http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/13796737.htm
>
> --
> Mike Bianchi
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is is worth the effort due to the extreme cost? My local hobby shop wants 4 to
6k$ for these things, depending on the model.
Unless it is just for fun of it, which is the best reason besides the whine
of the hot side!
:)
paul
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Changing Subject Lines & Inappropriate Replies
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:07:40 -0800
Nice try, but a while back I suggested people not hit 'Reply' on messages
when it wasn't actually a _reply_; most people just wanted to post a new
(unrelated) topic to the list, but found the easiest (laziest) option was
to simply hit 'reply' on any random message. This causes threading
problems since many email clients use the 'In-Reply-To' field of the email
to properly thread the messages. Responses were typical: "Your email
client is broken" (it's not, and I've _written_ email clients), or "golly,
works okay for me, why should I change?" This problem is persistent and
wide-spread.
I suspect your suggestion will also fall by the wayside, though I agree
with you whole-heartedly. I often have the opposite problem: An
interesting thread buried inside an uninteresting one.
Personally, I'd like to see the moderation rules of the list changed so
that persons who simply hit reply and respond with something that is OT to
the _thread_ be warned, and (if it persists) unsubscribed from the list.
Ahhh another person wanting others to solve his problems for him rather than
take his own initiative. Since you seem to have such an email prowess I
suggest this course of action. Each time a person makes this mistake you
can send them a personal note (on or off list) letting them know that if
they do not change their behavior YOU will personally remove them from YOUR
EVDL list by setting up a filter that dumps all their messages from YOUR
inbox without YOU ever reading it. Problem solved... Those of us that
aren't bothered by such things won't have to listen to the complaints, and
you will have the EVDL you've always dreamed of.
your welcome
damon
--- End Message ---
