EV Digest 5175
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re:No demand?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Controlling ceramic heaters, was UHMW in heater core
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Controlling ceramic heaters, was UHMW in heater core
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto Show
by "Shawn Waggoner " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto Show
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto Show
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto Show
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto Show
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Busted in Blue Meanie!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: No demand?
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Has anyone done research on mini/micro turbines to recharge a
battery pack?
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Busted in Blue Meanie! Me too. Busted in the Electravan.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto Show
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re:No demand?
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: No demand?
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV filled day!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto Show
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Gone Postal Van
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Busted in Blue Meanie! Me too. Busted in the Electravan.
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto Show
by "James McKethen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Busted in Blue Meanie!
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Lithiums in Parallel (was: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go
Lithium!!!)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Just tell him OK ... he never will he see a dime of your cash again...
Vote with your wallet.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 10:07 AM
Subject: Re:No demand?
> Wanted to see and try a Ford Escape Hybrid this last weekend. Local FORD
> dealer said He will neither stock nor sell the Hybrid. Tech training too
> expensive for the expected sales.
> This is not a small dealer. Largest within 100 miles.
> So which comes first, the demand or the availability? Will not buy if no
> warranty service, but no techs if don't buy.
> Wonder how general this attitude will be?
> Robert Wilson
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "M Bianchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 9:19 AM
> Subject: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto
> Show
>
>
> > Local TdS entry makes good ;-) From the Philadelphia Inquirer ...
> >
> > The little hybrid car that could
> > At Phila. Auto Show, a high school standout.
> >
> > Posted on Sun, Feb. 05, 2006
> > By Akweli Parker
> > Inquirer Staff Writer
> >
> > One of the most impressive cars at this week's Philadelphia Auto Show
> > doesn't come from Japan, Germany or Detroit.
> >
> > It came from the auto shop at West Philadelphia High School.
> > :
> > :
> >
> > http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/13796737.htm
> >
> > --
> > Mike Bianchi
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 14 Feb 2006 at 10:51, Chris Robison wrote:
> I just know that in the car I drive while my EV conversion is
> in progress, on a cold day I often have blower speed high because I like the
> airflow, and the heat mixture at the same time being low and precisely set to
> my preference, because I don't want so much heat. This situation, which I use
> frequently in the winter, would be impossible if controlling output via
> airflow.
OK, that makes sense.
> I think it's important to demonstrate how "normal" EVs can be, and little
> details like this are important to me. I'm ok if no one on this list agrees.
I'm of two minds on this. I realize that many typical customers are afraid
of change and avoid products that are too different from what they're used
to. A manufacturer that's building an EV to sell has to consider this.
But I also know that this cramps innovation and hobbles new products. To
give one example of many, I suspect that the Toyota Prius could have been
more efficient than it is if Toyota hadn't been so focused on making it
drive like a "normal" car. And even with all they did, you'll still read
complaints in the various forums for the Prius that "it drives weird."
I think this is one reason that E-bikes and scooters are the current EV
success story. They aren't trying to be like cars at all, and they don't
have to be like gas scooters. Gas scooters have never been especially
popular in the states, so for many customers here there is no "normal."
In Europe, where gas scooters have long been popular, E-bikes and scooters
don't seem to have much caught on. I might be wrong about that; perhaps one
of our European correspondents could fill us in.
In Asia, where E-bikes >have< sold well, I suspect that they're considered
an upgrade from a bicycle rather than a replacement for a gas scooter, but
I'm not sure.
>
> At any rate, I'm about ready to accept that electric heat via PTC elements
> will, in this one way, be inferior to heat in a ICE car if I insist on a
> solid-state design. (I could have left in the mixture flap, but I wouldn't
> have
> had room for a large heater like I'm building.)
A PTC behaves like a liquid heater core and it doesn't. While the coolant
from an ICE is consistent in temperature, as a PTC is, a simple valve can
route more or less coolant through the core. This is how heater temperature
was regulated in my old VW Rabbit and at least a couple of other small cars
I owned. I think more modern cars use some combination of coolant flow
regulation and air damping.
Curious that, for your particular case, the PTC's principal asset makes it
seem inferior.
> I'll most likely go with
> selectively switching the elements for output control which in my case will
> probably get me very close to what I want anyway.
This sounds like a good solution.
> I apologize if the questions are annoying.
I can't speak for others, but I'm not the slightest bit annoyed. I was
puzzled, but you've explained that you want to have high airflow and low
heat, so now I understand.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 14 Feb 2006 at 10:35, Lee Hart wrote:
> Or use the transistors themselves as your heating elements.
Another "Think Different" solution. Brilliant. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great article! I found the website that has the pictures for the car as well
a video from the local NBC news:
http://evteam.gambitdesign.com/gallery/albums.php
(this album has several projects including an EV Saturn)
Specific album on the Attack:
http://evteam.gambitdesign.com/gallery/attack_build
The video is definitely worth watching. These kids did a great job!
--
Shawn M. Waggoner
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of M Bianchi
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 10:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto
Show
Local TdS entry makes good ;-) From the Philadelphia Inquirer ...
The little hybrid car that could
At Phila. Auto Show, a high school standout.
Posted on Sun, Feb. 05, 2006
By Akweli Parker
Inquirer Staff Writer
One of the most impressive cars at this week's Philadelphia Auto
Show
doesn't come from Japan, Germany or Detroit.
It came from the auto shop at West Philadelphia High School.
:
:
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/13796737.htm
--
Mike Bianchi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 14 Feb 2006 at 13:29, Neon John wrote:
> Wow, what an utterly BS article. Should be named "The little hybrid
> that hasn't yet run". it's crap articles like this that go so far in
> dissipating credibility.
Where does it say that it hasn't yet run? Did I miss something here? Or is
this perhaps a personal reaction to something else in the article?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can't find the video. Can you link it?
-Mike
On 2/14/06, Shawn Waggoner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Great article! I found the website that has the pictures for the car as well
> a video from the local NBC news:
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nevermind, I am blind. For those of you are blind like me, it's the
projector clipart in place of the second photo in the gallery at
http://evteam.gambitdesign.com/gallery/attack_build or just go here
http://evteam.gambitdesign.com/albums/attack_build/car_001.wmv for the
video.
-Mike
On 2/14/06, Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I can't find the video. Can you link it?
>
> -Mike
>
> On 2/14/06, Shawn Waggoner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Great article! I found the website that has the pictures for the car as well
> > a video from the local NBC news:
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:58:41 -0500, "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>On 14 Feb 2006 at 13:29, Neon John wrote:
>
>> Wow, what an utterly BS article. Should be named "The little hybrid
>> that hasn't yet run". it's crap articles like this that go so far in
>> dissipating credibility.
>
>Where does it say that it hasn't yet run? Did I miss something here? Or is
>this perhaps a personal reaction to something else in the article?
It's not in the article but in the flash presentation that is linked
from the article.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Halt!! Whoa STop it now....
The Aero battery that Plasma Boy is using is good for only 1100 amps, and at
that he has thermally Damaged them.
No 2000 amp run on those toy batteries.
The Orbital XCD34 EXTREME Duty Purple lable Battery can do 1850 amps for 10
seconds With a Watt peak of 13.57Kw and a Sag of 7.43 volts.
But they Weight 40 lbs. Not 26 lbs.
So ... we don't have 2000 amp Lead Acid 26 lbs batteries... But we do have
800 amp 16lbs Hawkers.
Two of these come close to out watting the Orbs and are less weight.
The Orbs are not going to set records, the Hawker, and Areo Hawker are.
With Lions on the way... there is good logic in having Lead Records and
Lithium Records. Only the Luck the Rich and the Sponsored will get to play
with Lions for years. Lead can be done on most of our Salrys.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: Busted in Blue Meanie!
> Joel Hacker wrote:
>
> >John,
>
> >Could you or someone else comment on Hawker >AeroBatteries.
> What they are and what technology >makes them so "effecient"
> or desirable to you?
>
> I do know the ones John is using are rated to 26 AH at the
> 20 hour rate, each weighing 24 pounds. I don't know what 1
> hr rate or reserve capacity is, but I'd more than love to
> have that data.
>
> I imagine about 40 minutes reserve capacity, or basically in
> John Wayland's car, using 25 amps to cruise 60 mph, would
> equate to 40 miles range. 25-30 miles if you throw some lead
> foot into the mix.
>
> As for 'efficiency', they appear to have very low Peukert's
> numbers compared to other AGM batteries, along with a very
> low internal resistance.
>
> >I'm just curious as to what they are that makes them
> >so attractive!
>
> Specific power out the ass.
>
> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall that at 2,000
> amps, they sag to about 8V each. So that's 16 kW/battery, or
> for 29 of them under the hood 464 kW from the batteries.
> Basically, 630 battery horsepower out of a pack weighing 696
> pounds.
>
> This is nearly 50% more power than Exide Orbitals per unit
> weight.
>
> A dedicated drag car with about 1,200 pounds of these babies
> and the motors and controllers to use it would be pulling
> high 6s or low 7s. I have a hunch Dennis Berube is going to
> go this path.
>
> These same batteries could just as easily be placed into a
> street car, but I don't see anyone with deep pockets ready
> to aim for 10s or 9s yet. It would take a very careful
> choice of glider, that's for damn sure. Probably twin 11"
> WarP motors and a maxed out HV Zilla 2k, if they can both
> fit...
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This exact scenerio was discussed on the last "This New Car." To quote
them quoting Lee Iacoca (sp?), "Chrysler doesn't sell cars to people,
Chrysler sells cars to dealers!"
-Mike
On 2/14/06, Robert Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Wanted to see and try a Ford Escape Hybrid this last weekend. Local FORD
> dealer said He will neither stock nor sell the Hybrid. Tech training too
> expensive for the expected sales.
> This is not a small dealer. Largest within 100 miles.
> So which comes first, the demand or the availability? Will not buy if no
> warranty service, but no techs if don't buy.
> Wonder how general this attitude will be?
> Robert Wilson
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "M Bianchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 9:19 AM
> Subject: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto
> Show
>
>
> > Local TdS entry makes good ;-) From the Philadelphia Inquirer ...
> >
> > The little hybrid car that could
> > At Phila. Auto Show, a high school standout.
> >
> > Posted on Sun, Feb. 05, 2006
> > By Akweli Parker
> > Inquirer Staff Writer
> >
> > One of the most impressive cars at this week's Philadelphia Auto Show
> > doesn't come from Japan, Germany or Detroit.
> >
> > It came from the auto shop at West Philadelphia High School.
> > :
> > :
> >
> > http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/13796737.htm
> >
> > --
> > Mike Bianchi
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One major problem with this type of hobby engine and indeed with some of the
other gensets that people look at using is the mean time to failure, the
continuous duty cycle and the hours of operation between recommended
services. Small hobby engines are normally run for at most a very few hours
per week and have continuous run times of around 30 minutes. I worry that
if you tried to use one of these engines in a routine daily commute of say
an hour each way you would need to do a tear down and re-build every few
weeks.
However here's a picture for you. Mount the turbine at the back of your car
so when you light it up the thrust is not wasted, run a water cooling jacket
to capture heat for your cabin warmer and a generator on the front to charge
your batteries. Anyone see Bat Mobile? As long as you have Alfred to
service the car each time you get back to the bat cave you should be just
fine. :-)
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stefan Peters
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 8:50 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Has anyone done research on mini/micro turbines to recharge a
battery pack?
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> The capstone microturbine is not THAT efficient. On Natural gas, the
> exhaust temp is 900 degrees F.
> In stationary applications that is great, like 1 capstone for 4 houses
> provides all the electricity and hot water and hotwater needed for
> heating for all 4 houses. Excess heat can even be used to cool.
>
> Now if we can just figure out how to "co-generate" on the fly. Some kind
> of heat battery; a sterling generator or thermoeletric or peltier
> generator to cool the exhaust.
>
> IF we think about it, and consider a otto cycle engine at 25% eff, that
> is still 75% of energy given off as heat. If we could convert 30% of
> that to electricity, we could get as much energy as goes into
> accelerating AND driving the car, Way more than regen braking is capable
> of. On a small scale for a generator trailer, this would also have the
> benefit of continuing to charge as engine sits and cools down.
>
>
> how about modifing one of these?
> http://www.microjeteng.com/overview.html
>
>
>
>
Is this too small? It's ECU-controlled, and they have a varient already
designed for shaft output... these things are used to fly very large
model planes & helicopters.
http://www.wren-turbines.com/MW54.htm
Here is a graph of the output with exhaust temps:
http://www.wren-turbines.com/turbop3.gif
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We're wandering off topic here, but an ex-girlfriend of mine several years
ago, busted in her bug for 51 in a 35, told the cop she was going to see a
mystery movie - "And you know you can't miss the beginning of a mystery!"
He let her go.
The secret is to make the cop laugh or at least smile. Which, by the way,
is an excellent strategy for getting what you want in almost every human
endeavor. Instead of putting the other person on the defensive, you disarm
him. Humor - including self-effacing humor - is usually more effective than
any kind of force, physical or verbal, including violence, insults, and
personal attacks.
There's even a lesson here for those who may want to market EVs.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just watched the video. It runs. It drives. It goes 110 MPH and 0-60
in under 4 seconds.
They got $15k in grants, and lots of donations.
The news guys don't realise it can run on diesel as well as vegetable oil.
-Mike
On 2/14/06, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Wow, what an utterly BS article. Should be named "The little hybrid
> that hasn't yet run". it's crap articles like this that go so far in
> dissipating credibility.
>
> John
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You couldn't tell here in Los Angeles. I was in an
intersection yesterday in my Escape and saw two other
Escape hybrids, as well as a couple of Priuses. There
were lots of big smiles and nods as we all drove past
each other.
Gadget
> > From: "Robert Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re:No demand?
> Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 12:07:45 -0600
>
> Wanted to see and try a Ford Escape Hybrid this last
> weekend. Local FORD
> dealer said He will neither stock nor sell the
> Hybrid. Tech training too
> expensive for the expected sales.
> This is not a small dealer. Largest within 100
> miles.
> So which comes first, the demand or the
> availability? Will not buy if no
> warranty service, but no techs if don't buy.
> Wonder how general this attitude will be?
> Robert Wilson
visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com, gadgetsworld.org,
leftcoastconversions.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Robert Wilson wrote:
Wanted to see and try a Ford Escape Hybrid this last weekend. Local FORD
dealer said He will neither stock nor sell the Hybrid. Tech training too
expensive for the expected sales.
I suspect that saying he didn't want them was cover becuase they weren't
even offered to him. Ford has limited units to sell this (and next)
year, and are targeting them to dealers in markets that will command the
best price. Dealers in less popular markets will only get a vehicle or
two, and those will probably just be for the showroom.
If his customers ask for them, and Ford makes them available to him I
wouldn't be surprised if his attitude changes. In the end, dealers are
in the business of selling cars.
IIRC correctly Ford is building 39,000 Hybrid Escapes wordwides this
model year, and has approx 3000 US Dealers, only a few hundred of those
dealers will be able to order.
For better or for worse, the markets that are really hot for hybrids are
mostly in areas where owning one gets you open access to the HOV lanes.
When I was in DC for the Plug in Partners press conference I counted
Priuses in the HOV lane while riding the Orange line into the City. 3
out of 5 vehicles in the HOV lane were hybrids with only one occupant.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok the weak SLI battery is the most possible..
But the lights are crisp and the Vac pump and brakes are off while this
happens. I will add a couple 1000 Uf of 12 electro to the Hairball 12 V
line.
Keep in mind this is run by a DCP DC/DC... that has not died....yet.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Farver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: EV filled day!
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> >The mystery was why was the Zilla crapping out? blip throttle, and then
it
> >flashes a Fault...shuts down but does not post a digital error code...
> >Zillas normally tell you where it hurts how much and what Doctor to call
> >when they feel ill. Any ways.. I have to call Ot, or think clearly while
> >looking at the wiring.. it's gotta be obvious.
> >
> >
> >
> Low SLI battery will do this.. the Zilla is supposed to log low SLI
> voltage, but if it sags quickly enough the zilla doesn't get a chance to
> write it to EEPROM before the power drops completely. Usually the main
> contactor will drop out as it reboots. Have someone watch the Hairball
> serial output when it happens, if you see the bootloader countdown
> you'll know. The Hairball draws significantly more power under full
> throttle.. I assume it is powering some electronics in the Zilla.
>
> There were also some issues for awhile where noise can cause the Zilla
> to decide its max current allowed is 0 amps. Its easy to tell if you
> have this issue, since a simple key off/on will not bring the vehicle
> back to life, (contactor closes but no go) but turning the key off for
> 30-90 seconds will restore the unit to operation. Otmar has a hardware
> and a software change that seems to solve this problem.
>
> Mark
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just checked that out. Couldn't find anything that said it hasn't run.
Which dot says that?
-Mike
On 2/14/06, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Where does it say that it hasn't yet run? Did I miss something here? Or is
> >this perhaps a personal reaction to something else in the article?
>
> It's not in the article but in the flash presentation that is linked
> from the article.
>
> John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oxidizing in Rod's Driveway I suppose.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 4:36 PM
Subject: Gone Postal Van
> I haven't anything about Gone Postal for ages. What's happening with
> it?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
More offtopic---indeed humor works:
I knew someone who once got away from a speeding ticket by having body parts
donation information on the back of her license. But what specifically she
wrote had the officer in stitches.
She wrote: "Please make sure I'm dead beyond doubt".
-MT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://evteam.gambitdesign.com/albums/attack_build/car_001.wmv
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Ellis
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 1:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia
Auto Show
I can't find the video. Can you link it?
-Mike
On 2/14/06, Shawn Waggoner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Great article! I found the website that has the pictures for the car
> as well a video from the local NBC news:
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am working on a nicely converted Ford Ranger. It is using a Link 10
Battery monitor with Cruising Equiptment Co on the bottom. In the manual it
shows 9.5 to 40vdc input. It has a 12v source so why is the DC/DC needed?
Purify & stablize the energy source or keep the watts down? In any case the
DC/DC is blowing the 2 or 3 amp fuse we are putting in. To me that means
the DC/DC is bad. Is it really needed with this installation?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Umm
Guys... The V28 Lion packs have a LION proection chip and FET that PWM and
limit the peak current from the protected 7 cell set.
These were connected to the 1 by 1/2 copper buss bar with #14 gage wire
about....4 inches long. I called these interconnects ...Flash bulbs... They
did Not blow.
So Every cell in the 7 pack had a fuse element between each other. The Tabs
can fuse if needed. So... you have 60 volt Fets, Fuse, and fusable lilnks,
and temp sensored Gates protecting the pack.
And lets not forget the Zillas that have a nice 1800 amp current limit, and
the 15 Feet of twin 0/4 that will also become a Short current limit at over
3000 amps. So... protection in depth... is a really good idea.
The only fails where a pack that got shorted to each other on assembly.
SparK!.. all dead packs. All with blown Fets and 1/2 the cells are ...not
present. We had a cable short later that ..wounded a stack of packs.. We
just put them back on the chargers, and they came back... Nice protection...
It did just what it was supposed to do.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 6:13 PM
Subject: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
> Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > What happens if a cell shorts? Aren't its 99 paralleled
> > buddies going to dump a truly awesome amount of current into
> > it?
>
> 27 buddies; Lawrence was suggesting 100 series blocks of 27 paralleled
> cells each.
>
> Still, the possibility of 2600A+ being dunped into that shorted cell
> still seems to justify your concern. ;^>
>
> I think that a possible answer is that such a massively paralleled pack
> really only makes sense for racing (where its 2700A+ discharge current
> could be exploited), and so the possibility of a spectacular failure
> might be an acceptable risk.
>
> Another is that if the interconnects between individual cells are sized
> appropriately for normal discharge rates (~100A), then in the event of a
> cell failing shorted, the 26x normal current would simply blow the
> interconnect. Although the interconnects would be acting as fuses, they
> would never have to interrupt full pack voltage since that would require
> all paralleled cells in a block to short, and then the voltage monitor
> for that block would obviously sense the undervoltage condition and
> force the system to shutdown. In such an unlikely catastrophic failure,
> the last interconnect might indeed open with full pack voltage across
> it, but since the fault can now be sensed by the BMS, the controller can
> be shut down and/or main contactor(s) dropped out to interrupt the fault
> current even if the interconnect was unable to clear the fault.
>
> For applications other than racing (where the unusually high discharge
> rates of these cells (~35C) is an advantage), it probably makes far more
> sense to use a single string of much larger capacity cells, such as the
> Kokams with their 20C discharge capability.
>
> Another possible way to sidestep this issue is to use paralleled strings
> of single cells. Although one would now require some sort of BMS per
> cell, the BMS could end up being sufficiently simpler (e.g. under/over
> voltage and temperature per cell rather than per block plus current per
> cell) and cheaper to be justifiable.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I am working on a nicely converted Ford Ranger. It is using a Link 10
Battery monitor with Cruising Equiptment Co on the bottom. In the
manual it shows 9.5 to 40vdc input. It has a 12v source so why is the
DC/DC needed? Purify & stablize the energy source or keep the watts
down? In any case the DC/DC is blowing the 2 or 3 amp fuse we are
putting in. To me that means the DC/DC is bad. Is it really needed
with this installation?
Lawrence Rhodes
Yes for isolation. The Link 10's negative 12v power lead is connected
to the traction pack negative. If you do not use the DC/DC you are
connecting the frame of the car (12v negative) to the traction pack
negative. Touch the positive traction pack post, or any other terminal
and you'll get shocked.
Mark
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
!DSPAM:43f23a25277931988019335!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have you had the opportunity to blast a 26ah Hawker??
The only data I see on your site is when you tested some SVR14's and a 16ah
Hawker.
Yeah, the 16AH Genesis is an 1100amp battery, BUT it's also 7mOhm as opposed to
the 5mOhm of the 26AH. So OK, maybe not 2K amps but how about 1600?
Stay Charged!!
Hump
Do you need one to test? I don't have Aero's but I do have Genesis 26'rs. I'll
send one if you want to test it.
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 2:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Busted in Blue Meanie!
Halt!! Whoa STop it now....
The Aero battery that Plasma Boy is using is good for only 1100 amps, and at
that he has thermally Damaged them.
No 2000 amp run on those toy batteries.
The Orbital XCD34 EXTREME Duty Purple lable Battery can do 1850 amps for 10
seconds With a Watt peak of 13.57Kw and a Sag of 7.43 volts.
But they Weight 40 lbs. Not 26 lbs.
So ... we don't have 2000 amp Lead Acid 26 lbs batteries... But we do have
800 amp 16lbs Hawkers.
Two of these come close to out watting the Orbs and are less weight.
The Orbs are not going to set records, the Hawker, and Areo Hawker are.
With Lions on the way... there is good logic in having Lead Records and
Lithium Records. Only the Luck the Rich and the Sponsored will get to play
with Lions for years. Lead can be done on most of our Salrys.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: Busted in Blue Meanie!
> Joel Hacker wrote:
>
> >John,
>
> >Could you or someone else comment on Hawker >AeroBatteries.
> What they are and what technology >makes them so "effecient"
> or desirable to you?
>
> I do know the ones John is using are rated to 26 AH at the
> 20 hour rate, each weighing 24 pounds. I don't know what 1
> hr rate or reserve capacity is, but I'd more than love to
> have that data.
>
> I imagine about 40 minutes reserve capacity, or basically in
> John Wayland's car, using 25 amps to cruise 60 mph, would
> equate to 40 miles range. 25-30 miles if you throw some lead
> foot into the mix.
>
> As for 'efficiency', they appear to have very low Peukert's
> numbers compared to other AGM batteries, along with a very
> low internal resistance.
>
> >I'm just curious as to what they are that makes them
> >so attractive!
>
> Specific power out the ass.
>
> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall that at 2,000
> amps, they sag to about 8V each. So that's 16 kW/battery, or
> for 29 of them under the hood 464 kW from the batteries.
> Basically, 630 battery horsepower out of a pack weighing 696
> pounds.
>
> This is nearly 50% more power than Exide Orbitals per unit
> weight.
>
> A dedicated drag car with about 1,200 pounds of these babies
> and the motors and controllers to use it would be pulling
> high 6s or low 7s. I have a hunch Dennis Berube is going to
> go this path.
>
> These same batteries could just as easily be placed into a
> street car, but I don't see anyone with deep pockets ready
> to aim for 10s or 9s yet. It would take a very careful
> choice of glider, that's for damn sure. Probably twin 11"
> WarP motors and a maxed out HV Zilla 2k, if they can both
> fit...
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I am working on a nicely converted Ford Ranger. It is using
> a Link 10 Battery monitor with Cruising Equiptment Co on the
> bottom. In the manual it shows 9.5 to 40vdc input. It has
> a 12v source so why is the DC/DC needed?
You need the DC/DC to keep the traction pack isolated from the house 12V
bus. The meter internally connects its supply -ve and the traction pack
-ve together, which defeats the isolation we usually strive so hard to
maintain between our traction packs and the vehicle chassis.
If you are powering the meter from a 12V tap on the traction pack, then
you don't need the DC/DC, but if you are powering it from the house 12V
battery that uses the vehicle chassis for the ground return you do.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had asked:
> 1) Has anyone ever seen or heard of a Lithium battery
> actually shorting?
No comments yet, so I did a web search...okay, these things do short
sometimes.
But the consensus out there is that the manufacturers are supposed to (and
do) put mechanisms in place to prevent INTERNAL shorts from leading to any
catastrophic destruction. Typically their approach is to create an internal
polymer fusing link. Nevertheless, there are documented cases of alleged
internal shorts leading to fires or worse:
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2005/HZB0501.pdf
However, the primary vulnerability to short circuit is externally generated
shorts. Further, even external circuit shorts aren't supposed to lead to
fire or explosion due to the mechanisms the manufacturer is supposed to put
in place.
The biggest vulnerability to internal short is due to externally-penetrating
objects. I'd guess the Kokam-style Lithiums would be particularly at risk
here given their lack of a hard shell. Lack of an externally-induced short,
internal shorts are said to be most likely due to overtemp which is
something that the manufacturer puts the internal polymer fuse in there to
handle.
> 2) What is the likelihood of a short as a failure mechanism
> for a Lithium
> batt?
As mentioned above, internal shorts are possible, but mechanisms are in
place by the manufacturer to lead the cell to fuse open in case of a short
or high heat.
In the above 2004 NTSB study, AC Propulsion had shipped some Lithium battery
modules and one had caught fire in shipment. Each of these "modules" was
composed of 2 "blocks" of 68 cylindrical Lithium cells connected in parallel
by spot welding to a grid at the top and bottom of each cell. Two blocks
were then bolted together to form a 7.4v module.
The NTSB conclusion for the fire source?
They couldn't be certain, but the preponderance of evidence led them to
believe that external metal "tools" floating around in the package had
managed to bridge the modules external contacts leading to an external short
circuit. This external short circuit then caused the package and batteries
to begin to burn, which led to cells going overtemp, etc. I.E. they
couldn't conclude that an internal short was the likely cause.
Clearly ACP wasn't too concerned about paralleling a mass of Lithium
batteries without fuses since each of their modules was configured as a
2S*(68P) config.
Maybe they've since changed this?
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > The first fuse blew because you fused the cells for 1000
> > amps, and are actually drawing 2000 amps. The first fuse
> > blew because of the 200% overload.
>
> Why in the world anyone would fuse the cells for half of the
> possible current drawn from them?
>
> Perhaps I missed some info in the beginning of the thread...
While Lee is correct that one would indeed use a fuse rated for less
than the peak current, I am not following his logic either! ;^>
Basically, each of these cells is (said to be) good for upwards of 100A,
so although one might connect 27 in parallel to achieve a 78Ah block
capable of 2700A+, one would not fuse each cell for the full 1000A (or
whatever) total discharge current. The interconnects tying each cell to
its parallelled buddies need only be built to survive 200A and to blow
open at much over this.
If a cell fails shorted, then its buddies will discharge through it. If
they try to dump too much current (100A+ each, or 2600A+ for 26 buddies
discharging into the shrted 27th buddy), then that cell's interconnect
blows open and disconnects that failed cell. This event is not observed
outside of the module since the current flows entirely inside the module
and not between it and the other series modules. Once a cell has failed
in this manner, each of the remaining buddies must pick up its share of
the current, that is, when 1000A is demanded, each of the remaining 26
cells must supply 38.5A instead of 37A; no big deal, and not likely to
cause a cell interconnect any grief if it is rated to handle the 100A+
peak current each cell is capable of anyway.
If an excessive discharge current is applied to the series string, then
the pack fuse(s) and/or breakers open, since this fault condition is
readily detectable through normal means.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Guys... The V28 Lion packs have a LION proection chip and FET
> that PWM and limit the peak current from the protected 7 cell
> set.
I think the discussion has been considering what potential issues might
arise if one parallels a bunch of bare cells to get a module with
EV-suitable peak current and capacity, and what protections might be
required in that situation.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
