EV Digest 5181
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Electric truck
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) why not gel cells and no regs? was Re: critical mass-battery weight vs amp
hour ratings
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: critical mass-battery weight vrs amp hour ratings
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Hawker AeroBattery 'correct' Info
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Flooded Battery Questions From A Newbie
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Festiva
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Why not more AC conversions vs DC conversions...
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Hawker AeroBattery 'correct' Info
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Why not more AC conversions vs DC conversions...
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: why not gel cells and no regs? was Re: critical mass-battery weight vs
amp hour ratings
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: critical mass-battery weight vrs amp hour ratings
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Hawker AeroBattery 'correct' Info
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Hawker AeroBattery 'correct' Info
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Hawker AeroBattery 'correct' Info, reply, comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Why not more AC conversions vs DC conversions...
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: critical mass-battery weight vrs amp hour ratings, Comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: critical mass-battery weight vrs amp hour ratings, Comments
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Festiva
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: critical mass-battery weight vrs amp hour ratings, Comments
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: critical mass-battery weight vrs amp hour ratings, Comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: critical mass-battery weight vrs amp hour ratings
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: critical mass-battery weight vrs amp hour ratings, Comments
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Why not more AC conversions vs DC conversions...
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Victor,
My statement was based on my memory of research I did several years ago,
it's quite possible that I'm wrong, especially when you consider that I
wasn't thinking about 5C-10C discharges when I was looking into it.
Obviously you are in a better position to comment on this. How many wh
does you pack store when drained at the 5C rate, we can compare this to
YTs/Orbitals.
Thanks.
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> ...
>> FWIW though the Li-Ions/Li-Poly weigh less than Lead-Acid, they take up
>> almost the same amount of physical space.
>
> Peter,
>
> If you mean space per Wh, stored (volumetric energy density),
> I find this statement somewhat inaccurate. Do you have numbers
> by chance? I can compare with what I had physically in ACRX.
>
> Victor
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Very true in my opinion - the best lead acid battery results for high cycle
life I have heard about have been with gel cells. My friend in Germany has
over 4 times more mileage so far from 6V 160 A-hr. Varta gels than what I
would expect from equivalent flooded golf car batteries.
Posted at 1:51 EST, let's see how many hours before I receive it over EVDL.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Freidberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 12:39 AM
Subject: RE : critical mass-battery weight vs amp hour ratings
Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
However, you must also consider that for while you can discharge a
flooded lead battery to 80%DOD and still get reasonable life from it, you
really don't want to take an AGM much below 50% on a regular basis if you
want it to have a
similar life.
Enter the gel cell? Looking at the published specs at Mkbattery.com,
their gel cells give up 10-15% capacity compared to their AGMs of same
BCI. But their cycle life at 80% DOD is 600, and at 100% DOD is 450.
Whereas the AGM is only 250 cycles @75% and 200 @ 100%. So if you get to
deeply discharge the gel cells with less cycle life penalty it seems one
can make up the 10-15%. That's just what it looks like to me, its not
intended as a statement of fact.
Of interest is that folks on the list seem to be focused on AGMs and
regs. I ask, for street EVs with modest peak power demands (not racing)
why not gel cells and no regs? I raised the AGM vs. gel cell issue a while
back, there was some feedback but not a lot. Thereafter, I wondered
whether that was more a function of most people simply having not gone
that route, and therefore not really knowing, then anything else.
Best regards,
Mark Freidberg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 15 Feb 2006 at 14:28, Roland Wiench wrote:
> If you have a
> battery that has 25 watts per lb, then you will have a good battery performer.
>
> For example of my batteries I had a one time which was the best performer I
> ever had, was a 2 volt cell at 300 AH at 30 lbs each. Therefore 2v x 300ah =
> 600wh. 600wh / 30 = 20wh per lb.
I'm confused. Are you suggesting that a specific >power< of 25 watts per
pound is good, or a specific >energy< of 25 watt-hours per pound is?
The first doesn't sound too impressive - that would be 25 kw for a 1000 lb
battery. Not many of the "need for speed" guys here would be satisfied with
that much power.
On the second, 36 Wh/kg is considered about as good as it gets for deep
cycle lead batteries. That would be about 16 Wh/lb. If you were able to
get 20 Wh/lb from your battery, that would be 44 Wh/kg. That's quite
extraordinary for deep cycle lead batteries.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and all,
Hey, guess what? I'm off of digest mode! I couldn't take the wait anymore.
Anyway, I thought I'd better clear a few things up on the high
quality, tough-as-nails Hawkers I'm using in White Zombie.
Where does one purchase these Aerobatteries? It appears the Aerobattery
website is under renovation, so none of the links seem to work.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you don't mind driving 3 hrs each way, I have some batteries you can
have for free.
Most of them are used UPS batteries and some might be useless by this
time. I got them a couple years ago and was trying to keep them charged
up, but I've been working in the Middle East since just after I got them.
I did charge them up a couple times since then, but didn't have time the
last time I was home, so they haven't been charged since last May.
I have about a Ton of them.
I also have some East Pen Gel cells that might still have some life left
in them.
You (or anyone else) are welcome to come and pick through them for any
that are still in useable condition.
FWIW my house is in Sierra Vista AZ, down near Tombstone.
> Let me start by introducing myself. My name is Brendan Miller and I live
> in Phoenix, AZ. I started thinking seriously about doing a conversion
> about a year ago (Ive been interested in them for a long time, and used
> to be a member of the Arizona Solar Racing Team), and became a frequent
> lurker on this list about 6 months ago. Ive been planning on doing a
> sports car conversion (probably a Miata) with either AGM spiral cells or
> some other advanced chemistry (I was thinking Cobasys NiMH or flooded
> NiCads though they seem to be mythical).
>
> While getting ready to make the plunge and keeping my eye out for good
> used parts, I came across one of the motors I was considering (a 9.1 ADC)
> with a 120V 400A Curtis controller (not exactly what I was looking for,
> but still a useable controller). I found out that I could also buy it
> attached to a mothballed vehicle for a little more money
My, how things
> can change in the course of a single phone call! So, if all goes as
> planned, Ill be the proud owner of an S-10 this weekend with 20 6-volt
> flooded batteries (Trojans - T-125s, I think), that were put out to
> pasture at least 6 years ago. Rather than getting myself deep in debt,
> and possibly in over my head, Ive decided Ill fix this up and get it
> running and play with it for a year or two. After that, I may go back to
> my original sports car plan. Sorry truck guys (and gals, if there are any
> around here), but trucks are both inefficient and no fun!
>
> As I understand, flooded batteries are domesticated beasts, and dont do
> well fending for themselves in the wild. I guess my first question is: is
> there any chance of bringing these back to life, even if its just enough
> to do testing and drive a mile or two? Ive heard of a couple of methods
> of bringing them back, most notably pulse charging (where would I get a
> charger like that?) and some snake oil stuff you can put in them as a last
> resort. My assumption is that the batteries were probably still young and
> alive when they were released to the wild, so most of the damage should be
> a result of age and lack of food, not being overworked. Are any methods
> recommended? Or should I forget that notion and just accept that theyre
> only good for one thing, a core deposit?
>
> If I do decide to get different batteries, does anyone have suggestions on
> where I could find some good used ones in Arizona? I figure Id rather
> kill some geriatric ones that are too old to play golf anymore than to go
> postal on a bunch of poor kids. :)
>
> My second question is how should I treat my pack (whether it is a new one,
> or the old ones brought back to life), given my current driving regimen?
> Let me elaborate. I only commute about 5 miles round trip (I know I
> should bike, but sometimes I need my car for errands last minute at work
> and Im lazy). On the average week, between Monday and Friday, Im lucky
> if I put 30 miles on my car. Should I charge a pack every night even
> though I only used about 8 or 10 percent of its capacity? Or should I run
> about 30 miles over the course of 4 or 5 days which I suspect would be
> 50% (give or take) discharged, and then charge it? Itd probably get
> similar mileage use over the course of the average weekend (30 miles or
> so). This leads me to another question. Would I maybe be better off
> reducing the pack to 10 12-volt batteries, so that I could fully exercise
> the batteries without leaving them partially discharged for days on end?
> Will 12-volt floodies handle the 400 amps th!
> at the controller might request (due to an overexuberant drivers foot
> position)? The range should still be sufficient for what I plan to use
> it for. If Im going to kill them anyway (at least thats what everyone
> on here says), Id rather kill 10 than 20. Either way, whats the ideal
> amount of discharge? i.e. is less always better, or is less only better
> up to a certain point? Does repeatedly charging the batteries from 90%
> to full do more harm than good? Should I charge to 95% every night and
> do an equalization charge every week or every month? BTW, Ill be
> keeping my TDI for longer trips, so I shouldnt have to worry about
> limiting my range by not charging every night, as I have a backup
> vehicle.
>
> Unfortunately, as I mentioned above, both my research and experience up to
> this point hasnt been focused on flooded batteries. Im excited to get
> my new ride running, and decided I should just ask for help, since I cant
> find anything in the achieve answering my exact questions (though Im sure
> theyve been answered before).
>
> On another note, the vehicle comes with some kind of built in charger. I
> wont know what it is until I get it, and may not know what it is when I
> get it! What should I look for in a charger? Should I plan on buying an
> off-board charger, too, for the sake of battery life? What kind of
> charging algorithm do floodeds like? Just plain old CC followed by CV?
> If I bought a better charger, Id want something I could use on a more
> advanced pack in the future, too. What is the ideal amperage for a T-125
> during the bulk charging part of the cycle (and what is the min/max thats
> acceptable)? Am I correct saying its between C/20 to C/5. Can you
> charge a battery as fast as you want as long as you stay at or below the
> finishing voltage which would mean LOTS of amps at first (thats more a
> curiosity question, than an applicable one but from what I read, Im
> sure Rich could provide something to fully utilize my 200 amp service
> thats a 2x4s width away from where I plan to cha!
> rge :-p)? Anyone care to give me a quick lesson on floodeds? I know to
> water and tighten connections often and not let them go below 80%, but
> what else am I bound to do as a newbie to kill my first pack. Id rather
> learn from others mistakes than my own!
>
> Thanks in advance. Ive already learned so much from this list, and hope
> to learn more.
>
> -Brendan Miller
> (EV coming soon)
> Phoenix, AZ
>
>
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You may remember that I have been working on a Festiva EV. Due to some
personal circumstances, I had to put the project on hold for a while, but I am
now
ready to start working on it again. I am still planning on the following:
84 V system (14 x 6 V)
GE EV-1 with bypass
~10" series wound lift motor (out of my old EV)
retain clutch
I started working on the drivetrain a few months ago. I even purchased a
spare Festiva transmission to fit the motor to. But, now things have changed
some, and I may not have access to the machine shop to build the adapter plate
/
coupling. I also think with the Festiva that I will need a custom motor mount
for the tail end of the EV motor. That makes me wonder if I should abandon
that concept and go for a more readily available metro. I believe that with
the metro, you do not need to add a secondary mount for the motor. I believe
you can bolt it right to the trans and the trans has enough support to hold it
in place. Can someone confirm that? On question I do have is: Can a 10" (or
maybe even 11") OD lift motor fit in the metro (diameter wise) without hitting
the CV joints or other structure. The motor is shorter than my 7" one, maybe
10" x 13". I am guessing because it is in storage and I haven't seen it in a
while. It will go in the Festiva (I measured about 12" diameter clearance
and plenty of length), but the mounting will be more complicated. Can someone
with experience with these two cars give me some advice. Thanks.
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey mabye this is another one of those dumb
questions where I need slapped upside the head,
but everything I read recently speaks to how more
efficient AC motors because they don't need the
series windings in the armature (rotor) and
operate as an induction motor.
1. Is this right?
2. Are they more expensive?
Any ideas as to why DC systems with PWM, and
series wound motors (especially the Advanced DC ones)
are so popular for conversions?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Correct, but the motor loop current delivered by the Zilla Z2K 'is' at
2000 amps until that ramps down eventually matching the selected battery
current limit, which is usually set at 1000 amps.
Isn't the above true, because the Zilla Z2k can support a
series/parallel configuration for the motors? When you first
start off in White Zombie, I assume that the motors are in
series because they need all the current, and then at some
time during your run, they switch to paralleled to get the
full voltage of the pack, and the current is split between
the two motors.
Is that why you have the change mentioned above?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think it boils down to cost, and maybe perception.
Entry level DC is definitely cheaper. Lower voltages mean fewer batteries,
so the cost of the pack is cheaper as well.
There may also be the perception that DC is easier and less complex than AC,
more hands on. Not too sure about this.
Bigger DC conversions are about the same cost as AC system.
It may also be that a person gets their experience with a smaller DC system,
then as they go on to bigger projects they go with what they know.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joel Hacker
Sent: February 16, 2006 3:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Why not more AC conversions vs DC conversions...
Hey mabye this is another one of those dumb questions where I need slapped
upside the head, but everything I read recently speaks to how more efficient
AC motors because they don't need the series windings in the armature
(rotor) and operate as an induction motor.
1. Is this right?
2. Are they more expensive?
Any ideas as to why DC systems with PWM, and series wound motors (especially
the Advanced DC ones) are so popular for conversions?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are a lot of Solectria users using Gel cells quite successfully. Long
life and less balancing issues. They may not be able to support burning
rubber, but 250A and 300V is more than enough power for quick acceleration.
My guess is why most people on the list talk about AGM, is that it gives
good tire burning performance. This is an often talked about feature here.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Doug Hartley
Sent: February 15, 2006 10:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: why not gel cells and no regs? was Re: critical mass-battery weight
vs amp hour ratings
Very true in my opinion - the best lead acid battery results for high cycle
life I have heard about have been with gel cells. My friend in Germany has
over 4 times more mileage so far from 6V 160 A-hr. Varta gels than what I
would expect from equivalent flooded golf car batteries.
Posted at 1:51 EST, let's see how many hours before I receive it over EVDL.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Freidberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 12:39 AM
Subject: RE : critical mass-battery weight vs amp hour ratings
>
> Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> However, you must also consider that for while you can discharge a
> flooded lead battery to 80%DOD and still get reasonable life from it, you
> really don't want to take an AGM much below 50% on a regular basis if you
> want it to have a
> similar life.
>
>
> Enter the gel cell? Looking at the published specs at Mkbattery.com,
> their gel cells give up 10-15% capacity compared to their AGMs of same
> BCI. But their cycle life at 80% DOD is 600, and at 100% DOD is 450.
> Whereas the AGM is only 250 cycles @75% and 200 @ 100%. So if you get to
> deeply discharge the gel cells with less cycle life penalty it seems one
> can make up the 10-15%. That's just what it looks like to me, its not
> intended as a statement of fact.
>
> Of interest is that folks on the list seem to be focused on AGMs and
> regs. I ask, for street EVs with modest peak power demands (not racing)
> why not gel cells and no regs? I raised the AGM vs. gel cell issue a while
> back, there was some feedback but not a lot. Thereafter, I wondered
> whether that was more a function of most people simply having not gone
> that route, and therefore not really knowing, then anything else.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mark Freidberg
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello David,
The battery I have in my car now is 260ah x 2v = 520wh per cell. Each cell
weighs about 24 lbs or we now have 520wh/24 = 21.66wh per lb of battery
cell.
If you make a 6 volt battery from these cells, then 260ah x 6v = 1560wh per
battery or we still have 1560wh/72lbs = 21.66wh per lb.
The total pack weight is 90 cells x 24lbs = 2160lbs which is down 640 lbs
from the 300ah pack.
Now if we add the weight of the car which is about 4500 lbs, this makes the
battery pack about half the weight of the car. The total kw per total wt
would be about 260ah x 180V = 46.8kwh.
46.8kwh/6600 lbs = 7wh per lb of vehicle.
When I had the 300ah cells at 30lbs each, then 90 cells equal 2700 lbs which
is little more than half the weight of the vehicle. The total vehicle
weight was 7200 lbs.
300ah x 180v = 54kwh. 54kwh/7200 = 7.5kwh per lb of vehicle which is only
a gain of 0.5wh per lb.
The distance I'm driving and not doing high speed acceleration does not
justified the buy back cost that I would gain with any higher ah batteries.
What I have now, buys me double the life of the battery which 1/3 to 1/2
discharge cycles is about every four days for me.
That is about 600 cycles x 8 days = 4800 days which is about 13 years. I
change out the last battery pack at 10 years.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: critical mass-battery weight vrs amp hour ratings
> On 15 Feb 2006 at 14:28, Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> > If you have a
> > battery that has 25 watts per lb, then you will have a good battery
> > performer.
> >
> > For example of my batteries I had a one time which was the best
> > performer I
> > ever had, was a 2 volt cell at 300 AH at 30 lbs each. Therefore 2v x
> > 300ah =
> > 600wh. 600wh / 30 = 20wh per lb.
>
> I'm confused. Are you suggesting that a specific >power< of 25 watts per
> pound is good, or a specific >energy< of 25 watt-hours per pound is?
>
> The first doesn't sound too impressive - that would be 25 kw for a 1000 lb
> battery. Not many of the "need for speed" guys here would be satisfied
> with
> that much power.
>
> On the second, 36 Wh/kg is considered about as good as it gets for deep
> cycle lead batteries. That would be about 16 Wh/lb. If you were able to
> get 20 Wh/lb from your battery, that would be 44 Wh/kg. That's quite
> extraordinary for deep cycle lead batteries.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Joel Hacker wrote:
Correct, but the motor loop current delivered by the Zilla Z2K 'is'
at 2000 amps until that ramps down eventually matching the selected
battery current limit, which is usually set at 1000 amps.
Isn't the above true, because the Zilla Z2k can support a
series/parallel configuration for the motors?
Yes.
When you first
start off in White Zombie, I assume that the motors are in
series because they need all the current, and then at some
time during your run, they switch to paralleled to get the
full voltage of the pack, and the current is split between
the two motors.
Yes.
Is that why you have the change mentioned above?
No. The change down from 2000 amps to 1000 happens due to the motor back
emf as it spins ever higher in rpm. The current naturally ramps down, so
that even though the Zilla offers up a full 2000 amps, the motor only
consumes what it can...thus, the motor gets the full 2000 amps for a
good while from 0 rpm on up as it begins to pull rpm. There's a point
where as rpm climbs, the motor simply doesn't suck the amps it did at
lower rpms. Upon receiving a full throttle signal, the Zilla waits until
the current ramps down to 1000 amps, then switches over to parallel
where the motor can again, suck full current due to the higher imposed
voltage across it. Eventually however, at speeds around 90+ mph, the
2000 amp current again, ramps down due to motor back emf.
One of the changes we're doing to White Zombie very soon, is a rear end
ratio change to a taller 4:11 compared to the present 4:57. This change
'could' negatively affect the incredible hole sot the car presently has
with its 4:57 ratio, but upon careful evaluation, Tim and I are thinking
it won't and perhaps, it may even improve it further. We'll have to wait
to see if we are correct or not. What we are very sure of though, is
that a 'taller' 4:11 gear set will keep the motor in that 2000 amp sweet
spot longer at the top end, and, hoping to hit 115 or so at the end of
the 1/4 mile, it will also keep the Siamese 8 from over-revving. It
presently, is singing along at a lofty 7200 rpm at 106 mph.
The other change being added (almost completed at this time) is field
weakening. This will be interesting, to say the least. It should also,
help the motor pull hard at the top rpm levels, but care is needed to
use it only at the highest rpm areas.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is "hole sot?"
-Mike
On 2/16/06, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> One of the changes we're doing to White Zombie very soon, is a rear end
> ratio change to a taller 4:11 compared to the present 4:57. This change
> 'could' negatively affect the incredible hole sot the car presently has
> with its 4:57 ratio, but upon careful evaluation...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: Hawker AeroBattery 'correct' Info
snipabit;
> Hello to All,
>
Eventually however, at speeds around 90+ mph, the
> 2000 amp current again, ramps down due to motor back emf.
But when ya first ran it didn't you control the series-parallel thing,
like that famous breakstand, when the motors did the flash show, I cought"
That didn't look good" at Woodburn?
>
> One of the changes we're doing to White Zombie very soon, is a rear end
> ratio change to a taller 4:11 compared to the present 4:57. This change
> 'could' negatively affect the incredible hole sot the car presently has
> with its 4:57 ratio, but upon careful evaluation, Tim and I are thinking
> it won't and perhaps, it may even improve it further. We'll have to wait
> to see if we are correct or not. What we are very sure of though, is
> that a 'taller' 4:11 gear set will keep the motor in that 2000 amp sweet
> spot longer at the top end, and, hoping to hit 115 or so at the end of
> the 1/4 mile, it will also keep the Siamese 8 from over-revving. It
> presently, is singing along at a lofty 7200 rpm at 106 mph.
>
Good move I second that You ghave gobs of power off the line!
> The other change being added (almost completed at this time) is field
> weakening. This will be interesting, to say the least. It should also,
> help the motor pull hard at the top rpm levels, but care is needed to
> use it only at the highest rpm areas.
You Bet! Or the Zorch vids will be just before towing it in!You won't be
in FW for long!
> Yeah! Love to see the olde RR tech coming back to life, to race again!
How to speed up old trollies, they added field weakening, IF they didn't
come equipped, about when the Titanic went down.Subways and Diseasel Lokies,
too. Had run achient EMD F-7's with manual transition, YOU did the
"Shifting" on the controller.Start off in Series, at about 15 or 20 shifted,
after closing the throttle, to Parallel, yank out on the throttle. Sounded
like shifting grears in a truck or car. Once ya got going fairly fast, do
field weakening, but if you did too soon, the Diseasel Prime Mover would bog
down, like going to 5th too soon in a car or truck.The fun stuff was that
YOU decided when it was right to "Shift"The Boston and Maine had these
oldies till a few years ago, they MAY still be running them, nowadaze? Their
mentality is ;they work for us . We just don't happen to NEED any new
engines! Un American as hell, that mentality! I just happened to catch a job
off the extra bored to run a B and M freight train across Amtrak's lines.
What a nostalgia trip, to run antique Diseasels in regular servive!Had to
laugh when the B and M guy sed" Hell, this IS our new stuff!"OLDER than some
RR museum stuff!As I used to say" When you are older than the train you're
running and you can remember when the OLD stuff was NEW" you are an old
timer!
Back to the Races! Where 0 to 60 in 5 minutes wouldn't do<g>!
Seeya
Bob
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If someone were (on a business plan like Rich and his chargers) to build
and sell a very basic AC controller of roughly the same power level of a
Curtis DC controller, and that worked with a normal 60Hz motor (possibly
rewound for lower voltage) they would rapidly push DC off the home
conversion stage. Yes it would be a few points less efficient then the
currently available AC systems but so what. An AC controller and motor
does not have to be as optimized as the currently available ones are, but
when you are a large company with a lot of R&D money you are not going to
design a second rate product. They only do that after they get into mass
production and are looking to optimize profits.
Not long ago someone here claimed to have build a 3 PH inverter from 6
solid state relays and a bit of logic (basic stamp or something). The
battery was a 36 volts and the low voltage AC was then run thru 3
transformers to get up to 208 VAC and used to run a fairly large air
compressor. I think he just did it to see if it would work but it does
prove that AC does not have to be as high tech as it is sometimes made out
to be.
Now Lee and Victor can have the customary AC discussion.:) And they will
both be correct.
____________
Andre' B.
At 06:53 AM 2/16/2006, you wrote:
I think it boils down to cost, and maybe perception.
Entry level DC is definitely cheaper. Lower voltages mean fewer batteries,
so the cost of the pack is cheaper as well.
There may also be the perception that DC is easier and less complex than AC,
more hands on. Not too sure about this.
Bigger DC conversions are about the same cost as AC system.
It may also be that a person gets their experience with a smaller DC system,
then as they go on to bigger projects they go with what they know.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joel Hacker
Sent: February 16, 2006 3:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Why not more AC conversions vs DC conversions...
Hey mabye this is another one of those dumb questions where I need slapped
upside the head, but everything I read recently speaks to how more efficient
AC motors because they don't need the series windings in the armature
(rotor) and operate as an induction motor.
1. Is this right?
2. Are they more expensive?
Any ideas as to why DC systems with PWM, and series wound motors (especially
the Advanced DC ones) are so popular for conversions?
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi All;
Had tio comment on Rolands Car. Beng as it was an EFP creation, from the
Land of 4200 lb Renault R-10's and other weighty stuff. Somebopdy asked on
here the other day as to the point of no return? Prety good argument for
Titanic weight of vehicles, to get range. Red Beastie J Waylands famous
Toyota pickup truck. What if he had gone with the skigktly hevier T 145's,
what's a few hundred lbs among friends?Hell, he probable easily set the
distance record!? NOT towing the WZ and HM Garden tracter, on a trailer, I
mean, IF he cruised say from Miami to Jaxonville in FLA, only hills are over
on over passes and it would be warm so the batteries would be happy!
Or putting that pack in say a newer aerodynamicly? Limcoln, Town Car,
they the newer ones seemed faired off pretty nicely?Decent CD? Better than a
pickup, or really go crazy with a stretch limo PLENTY of room for batteries.
Maybe Kokans or something more exhotic and maybe 600 volts of power.
When Roland bounces off 7000 lb vehicles. OK why not, other than they
would be tough at battery replacment time$$$$$$$$$$$. Much to say for a
Freedom EV 1200 lb curb weight. Heard ya Jerry!<G>!But you hafta think a BIG
EV, like a BIG Cruise ship ,plowing along for hours on a charge, sounds
appealing,whole family aboard. and what folks are willing to spend on spendy
SUV's. Nobody's doing a Lincoln? Are they? Direct drive 11 or 13 inch Warp
Motor!A 4;50 rear end? Ford parts should fit? Zilla, of course! Maybe a
capaciter boost to keep you up with the pack at the stoplitre derby?But you
would need REAL dump charge stations for these behemuths!
Roland has almost this. He is the only other guy here with a RR weight
type car. It has worked well for him, all these years. Quietly doing it's
weighty thing.Decent speed an' range.
The Other Extreame
Seeya
Bob
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On 1/1/00, Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Or putting that pack in say a newer aerodynamicly? Limcoln, Town Car,
> they the newer ones seemed faired off pretty nicely?Decent CD? Better than a
> pickup, or really go crazy with a stretch limo PLENTY of room for batteries.
> Maybe Kokans or something more exhotic and maybe 600 volts of power.
>
Have you heard of this, Bob? http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/kaz.html
it can be done..
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I feel the metro needs the third motor mount but is fairly simple to
build.
Check out pictures at http://www.e-volks.com/geo.html for
the Festiva and Metro
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> You may remember that I have been working on a Festiva EV. Due to
some
> personal circumstances, I had to put the project on hold for a
while, but I am now
> ready to start working on it again. I am still planning on the
following:
> 84 V system (14 x 6 V)
> GE EV-1 with bypass
> ~10" series wound lift motor (out of my old EV)
> retain clutch
>
> I started working on the drivetrain a few months ago. I even
purchased a
> spare Festiva transmission to fit the motor to. But, now things
have changed
> some, and I may not have access to the machine shop to build the
adapter plate /
> coupling. I also think with the Festiva that I will need a custom
motor mount
> for the tail end of the EV motor. That makes me wonder if I
should abandon
> that concept and go for a more readily available metro. I believe
that with
> the metro, you do not need to add a secondary mount for the
motor. I believe
> you can bolt it right to the trans and the trans has enough
support to hold it
> in place. Can someone confirm that? On question I do have is:
Can a 10" (or
> maybe even 11") OD lift motor fit in the metro (diameter wise)
without hitting
> the CV joints or other structure. The motor is shorter than my 7"
one, maybe
> 10" x 13". I am guessing because it is in storage and I haven't
seen it in a
> while. It will go in the Festiva (I measured about 12" diameter
clearance
> and plenty of length), but the mounting will be more complicated.
Can someone
> with experience with these two cars give me some advice. Thanks.
>
> Steve
>
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That looks like a lower performance version of the Eliica.
video link: http://www.exn.ca/video/?video=exn20050322-eliica.asx
-Mike
On 2/16/06, Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 1/1/00, Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Or putting that pack in say a newer aerodynamicly? Limcoln, Town Car,
> > they the newer ones seemed faired off pretty nicely?Decent CD? Better than a
> > pickup, or really go crazy with a stretch limo PLENTY of room for batteries.
> > Maybe Kokans or something more exhotic and maybe 600 volts of power.
> >
>
> Have you heard of this, Bob? http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/kaz.html
> it can be done..
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: critical mass-battery weight vrs amp hour ratings, Comments
> That looks like a lower performance version of the Eliica.
>
> video link: http://www.exn.ca/video/?video=exn20050322-eliica.asx
>
> -Mike
>
> On 2/16/06, Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 1/1/00, Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Or putting that pack in say a newer aerodynamicly? Limcoln, Town
Car,
> > > they the newer ones seemed faired off pretty nicely?Decent CD? Better
than a
> > > pickup, or really go crazy with a stretch limo PLENTY of room for
batteries.
> > > Maybe Kokans or something more exhotic and maybe 600 volts of power.
> > >
> >
> > Have you heard of this, Bob? http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/kaz.html
> > it can be done..
> >
> > Thanks! Yes I have. Exactly my point. But I don't think he has a
backlog of orders. Gees! A Bullet train motor?Wheeee!
Seeya
Bob
>
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--- Begin Message ---
On 16 Feb 2006 at 7:14, Roland Wiench wrote:
> The battery I have in my car now is 260ah x 2v = 520wh per cell. Each cell
> weighs about 24 lbs or we now have 520wh/24 = 21.66wh per lb of battery cell.
Ah, I see where the disparity lies. You are calculating specific energy at
the 20 hour rate rather than the 1-hour rate. I think the latter is more
realistic for an EV, and it's the rate at which the best-case lead Wh/kg I
cited (36 Wh/kg) was calculated.
Let's re-examine this from a more typical EV perspective. The Trojan T-145
should yield 156ah at the one-hour rate. That is (neglecting voltage drop)
936 Wh. They weigh 71 lb (32.3kg) so at real-world EV currents the T-145s
will yield 13.2 Wh/lb or 29 Wh/kg.
This is pretty good for a reasonably priced, conventional design flooded
deep cycle battery. For example, a USBMC 8VGC yields 100ah at the 1-hour
rate and weighs 29kg, for a specific energy of 27.6 Wh/kg.
For another data point, I calculated an Optima G31 at 27.3 Wh/kg.
I don't have Peukert's exponent or reserve capacity for your previous large
300ah cells, but I imagine the 1-hour rate would be in the same range.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 1 Jan 2000 at 2:33, Bob Rice wrote:
> Nobody's doing a Lincoln? Are they?
Those big, heavy luxury EVs were Aronson's specialty, as you know. Not many
converters have followed in his footsteps (or tire tracks, deep ruts from
the weight ;-). But isn't there some Japanese behemoth with 6 wheels or
something that runs on lithium batteries?
Evan Tuer added :
> Have you heard of this, Bob?
> http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/kaz.html
Yep, that's the one.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hey mabye this is another one of those dumb
> questions where I need slapped upside the head,
> but everything I read recently speaks to how more
> efficient AC motors because they don't need the
> series windings in the armature (rotor) and
> operate as an induction motor.
>
> 1. Is this right?
Not quite. The more common AC (induction) motors still have a winding on
the rotor, it's just powered by magnetically induced current instead of
directly by DC voltage via a commutator (like series wound motors).
The lack of a mechanical comutator is the main reason why AC setups are
slightly more efficient. The lack of a comutator (a weak spot on DC
motors) is also why they can spin up to about twice the RPM of DC motors.
>
> 2. Are they more expensive?
>
Yes, though within the last 6 or 7 years a few people have been offering
AC motor/controllers that don't cost 5 times as much as DC motors.
However they are still slightly more expensive than most DC
motor/controller/etc.
The more economically priced AC setups require a much higher voltage to
provide similar perfornce though and that limits you choices on batteries,
generally to the more expensive 12V AGM type batteries.
These more expensive batteries practically require more expensive chargers
and battery management systems which further increase the price.
All up an AC conversion will still cost about twice as much as a low end
DC setup. Of course you get regen and slightly better effeciency.
> Any ideas as to why DC systems with PWM, and
> series wound motors (especially the Advanced DC ones)
> are so popular for conversions?
$ure, people will go to amazing length$ to $ave a little money.
$ome folk$ will $pend $2,000-$3,000 on batterie$ then complain about
$pending more than $200 on a battery charger.
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