EV Digest 5188
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Free snowblower
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: OT: "water car" hoax
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Why not more AC conversions vs DC conversions...
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EHPS Pump - Mount it sideways?
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Controllers
by Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Anyone have experience with MK Battery AGMs or Gel Cells?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Why not more AC conversions vs DC conversions...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Busted in Blue Meanie!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Hawker AeroBattery: Anyone have pricing / availability?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Current Eliminator News The Sword slashed again
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: EHPS Pump - Mount it sideways?
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Battery powered Trains
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: AGM failure
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Dragtimes Vote
by "Shawn Waggoner " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Votes - how are we doin' ?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Zivan exorcised, ? about ZA22D power board comm (Was: After Marin
ampabout, Zivan down, needs exorcism)
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: A trip to the referee station
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery powered Trains, and hybrids
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Zivan exorcised, ? about ZA22D power board comm
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: AGM failure
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Dragtimes Vote
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Why not more AC conversions vs DC conversions...
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Lithiums in Parallel (was: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go
Lithium!!!)
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Current Eliminator News The Sword slashed again
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) Re: Volumetric energy density of Lithium battery
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Lithiums in Parallel (was: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go
Lithium!!!)
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Current Eliminator News The Sword slashed again
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Volumetric energy density of Lithium battery
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Lithiums in Parallel (was: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go
Lithium!!!)
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Mike, what kind of motor are you using for the snowblower (series, shunt,
compound) and how many HP? I've got an 8HP ICE snowblower that I'm thinking
about converting. Thanks.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of M.G.
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 11:44 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE:Free snowblower
>
>
>It's at my employer in Montgomeryville PA. If you can't pick it up here
>I can schlep it home (Narberth PA) for pickup on the weekend. Please
>email me off-list.
>
>The last thing I need is another project,
>
I would like to take you up on this offer but to drive (4 hours) from
Pittsburgh for a snow thrower even for free is a bit much.
I am already trying to convert my old snow thrower to electric. The
motor arrived last week. And I was disassembling the machine at the
same time you were writing this.
Let me know if you are heading close to Pgh.
Mike G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Of course I'm being facetious. No need to fill 'er up, that guy's story
is already full of it.
Danny
David Roden wrote:
On 18 Feb 2006 at 13:49, Danny Miller wrote:
Well, the news station looks
like they thoroughly researched it.
How do you figure? It looked like a typically fawning, vacuous TV news
"feature" to me. Or are you being facetious?
Fill 'er up! ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Guys....
peter vander wall said
No not really. The relationship between voltage and rpm is a design
consideration. Yes high voltage makes it easier to achieve high RPM, but
it isn't required. There have been 12,000 rpm brushed motors that run on
3V and 5000 RPM motors that run on 600V.
Yes that is true, BUT not at the same torque or even the same hp. These
things are all interrelated and tradeoffs exist.
I was trying to offer some explination without going into the extream
details, there are always exceptions.
I was trying to point out how, from a converters standpoint, what
difference the two AVAILABLE choices have. Sorry for the confusion.
In reality it works out to the strengh of the magnetic flux and the
current crossing it.
The flux can be from permenant magnets or amp turns. 1 turn at a
zilla amp or 10 turns at a higher voltage and a lesser amp.
;the length of the couple it works thru
Diameter of motor
;and the speed of commutation
Freq for AC bars for DC
We can have 4 poles for twice the torque of the 2 pole motor, but at
half the speed.(heck, we can have 72 pole 3phase,even monopole)
We can have 100 turns of #10 wire in the field coils, then we can use
low amps, And this is how sep-ex is accomplished.
I would like to know why we haven't tried BLDC with six-step.
I have been dying to try 4 IMA motors from honda and synchronize the
stock controllers.
My fear is that the drop in torque at higher rpm's because of the
fixed field strength would outweight the effiency gains. Field weakining
can be acomplished either electrically(override the magnet) or
mechanically (variable airgap) to help the high rpm range.
OK, this sounds like flame bait. stateing BLDC and six-step is higher
effiency. The idea is that six-step gets the transistors into
conduction faster (than pure sine) so they have lower switching and Rds
losses and the field is free. But are we splitting hairs? What is 2
more % at the motor compared to some decent aerodynamic door seals. Or
live axels, or ...?
BTW, I know we can get to 99.95% effiency on electric motors, with lots
and lots of money. (magnetic bearing and superconducting windings)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Any downsides to mounting an electric power steering pump (MR2 flavor)
sideways? I'm running out of room under the hood but found a great spot
under my battery rack!
Adrian
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> >On 18 Feb 2006 at 15:15, Jimmy Argon wrote:
> > Also, I have a Curtis PMC21 that has been stored for 10 years.
>
> From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> The PMC-21 is a fairly solid second generation (or maybe 1.5
> generation;-)
> transistor controller. I had a PMC-25, the higher voltage version.
> This caution goes double now that it's probably just about old enough to
>
> vote. In fact I would even be hesitant to take it over about 84 volts.
> If
> you want to run more than 96 volts, sell it to someone who will
> appreciate
> it, and buy something else.
Dave,
Thanks for the advice. I tend to push voltage up by adding batteries also
since I use flooded 6 volts - I push the charging voltage to 2.5 v/cell at
least every 2 weeks, and like to charge just before I drive (thereby not
letting the voltage settle). I will sell the controller on ebay after I
verify it is good.
Jimmy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Freidberg wrote:
> Has anyone used them in a street EV or other application?
>
> www.mkbattery.com
We've used the MK battery size 22F in our BEST kid's EVs. They worked
just fine. One of the survivors (now 8 years old) is currently the 12v
accessory battery in my LeCar EV.
They appear to be gel cells, or at least they behave like it. Internal
resistance is high, and capacity drops fast at anything over 50 amps.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
>> someone here claimed to have build a 3 PH inverter from 6 solid state
>> relays and a bit of logic (basic stamp or something). The battery was
>> a 36 volts and the low voltage AC was then run thru 3 transformers
>> to get up to 208 VAC and used to run a fairly large air compressor.
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Is this design scalable up to Zilla levels? What are the upper limits
> of limitation of this setup?
You could, but you wouldn't want to.
Solid state relays of the requisite size are pretty expensive. You're
better off using transistor modules and your own driver ICs.
The transformers would be as big and heavy as the motor, and would cost
you 10% or so in efficiency. It's better to rewind the motor to match
the pack voltage, or raise the pack voltage to match the motor.
For the $50 of a BASIC Stamp, you could get any of a number of ICs
specifically built to drive the motor that would do a better job.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles Twete wrote:
> John needs a plug brake like my old Milburn has...wait, scratch that,
> I almost caught the jalopy on fire a week ago when I left the speed
> select in plug brake mode and then proceeded to have a friend tow
> the thing when I wrongly thought the batteries were outta juice...
> 45 seconds later I started to see smoke!
Hmmm... maybe the plug braking resistor would be a good application for
a big resistor in a bucket of water? It takes a long time to boil off a
couple gallons of water, and the steam is pretty harmless (and obvious
:-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 2/18/06 3:14:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< I didn't see any answer to this question either. One of the first
things I look into when considering a product is "can I purchase this
easily". If I can find a posted price and a "Buy Now" button, I'm
*much* more likely to consider that product for a certain design. So
right now, Aerobatteries are just a John Wayland special product :) So
John, where can these things be bought and for how much?
>>
My personal choice for AGMs -Hawker geninis because the plates are thinner
than the aero/odyssey.The odyssey/aero battery may however be more tolerant of
vibration.So dont waste your money on fancy colors. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We went down in the 1st round today.Dialed CE at 11.90 ran an 11.874 to break
out.At this power setting CE had never gone quicker than 11.906.This will set
me back from 1st In the Summit points lead. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Adrian DeLeon wrote:
Any downsides to mounting an electric power steering pump (MR2 flavor)
sideways? I'm running out of room under the hood but found a great spot
under my battery rack!
Nope. My 94 US_Electricar S10 seems to have this pump mounted sideways.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's probably RailPower: http://www.railpower.com/
article: Hybrid Locomotive Gains Traction -
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/planet/0,66998-0.html
Mark Grasser wrote:
I ran into a guy at the bar in an airport somewhere (I really don't
remember where) He is part of a group in the northwest, Oregon I
think. They are converting switchyard engines to battery power. They
remove all the diesel stuff and fill the deck full of batteries.
Selling them to yards that are in the city to get rid of the noise and
stink problem associated with idling locomotive diesels.
Mark Grasser
Subject: Re: Battery powered Trains
There is another type of locomotive that is equally interesting. Known
as the "thermos bottle" locomotive, it consisted of little more than a
huge insulated steel pressure vessel mounted on the trucks of a steam
locomotive. The pressure vessel was filled with superheated water at
about 350 psi. The water flashed to steam as the pressure was reduced
and the steam drove the locomotive.
These locomotives were used around refineries, mines and other places
where there were lots of flammables about. They were 'refueled' from
piping brought from the plant's central boiler. One filling was good
for a whole shift.
Here's a photo of one used by PP&L at a power plant's coal yard. This
is located at the Pa railroad museum.
http://www.johngsbbq.com/Deep_linked/Thermos_bottle.jpg
John
On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 02:59:25 -0500, "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Hi EVerybody;
Heres a cool battery train setup in Germany. It's an old article,
can't seem to find any newer stuff. Battery trains do and can work,
as this article proves. Load on the batteries, whats a few trons
among friends. With almost no rolling resistance and not having to
climb hills, well, not very STEEP hills a train can go pretty far.
If I won the Power Ball thing, would build some upgraded commuter
cars, just for fun and later profit. Cities could sytart commuter
rail with existing freight RR's tracks. No need to string catenery,
at a million bux a mile.
Phillipe? Got yur ears on? Have you been over to Germany and maybe
have seen any of these trains, they seem to be toward the France
side of Germany>
In Training
Bob
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
Emerson
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) h:(905)279-5885 c:(416)892-5885
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are probably correct. I had forgotten about that....
At 02:44 PM 2/18/2006, Joel Hacker wrote:
Aren't those normally Gel Cells in a battery backup system?
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
Interesting, I just has some AGM batteries fail.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It appears that for a brief period, the site had a "pay for votes" options.
Matt Graham saw it earlier, but it has since been withdrawn from the site. I
can only speculate that it was due to an outcry from the various site
visitors. Apparently, votes were a penny-a-vote, with options of $10, $15,
$25, etc. So I would guess the Audi owner threw down the $25 to boost his
votes.
All I can say is, the website is based here in South Florida, and I think we
all know how well South Florida can handle elections...'nough said.
In the mean time it looks like Rod and Matt's cars are moving back into the
top slots. Keep the votes going for all the EV's!
--
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida EAA
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rod Hower
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 3:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Dragtimes Vote
Something is really fishy concerning the initial
voting.
The Subera last month jumped up to 1400 votes and then
barely got 10 votes a day after that. I think they
are finding a way to artificially increase voting when
the car is initially featured.
Maybe you could email the site owner and ask him about
the legitimacy of this vehicle (the Audi).
I believe the Corvette has a large following and has
many voters just like the EV's.
I don't however believe the Audi has a very big
audience.
Rod
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
>
> >Noticed the talk on Dragtimes voting has died off-
> Also noted some Audi came out of nowhere and slaped
> the Mazda and the Nissan back to 2nd and 3rd place
> and that Corvette that was third is still trying to
> move up.
> >
>
> Thanks for posting this, Bruce. Where 'did' that
> Audi come from, and how
> in the world did it get so many votes, so fast?
>
> I vote every day for the EVs, and sure wish all who
> voted regularly and
> propelled White Zombie to the number one spot, would
> do the same for our
> EV friends fighting for next month's honor. All it
> would take, is for
> this group to sit down today and vote once, and the
> Audi guy would see
> stars and wonder how the EVs shot past him. Come on
> everyone, this is
> fun! Vote for the EVers!
>
> See Ya....John Wayland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was just over at the dragtimes.com site and noticed two votes separate the
first and third place cars.
Two of the first three are electric.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On February 09, 2006 2:03 PM, David Roden wrote:
> On 8 Feb 2006 at 11:24, Chuck Hursch wrote:
>
> > The charger does
> > a 3-hr final I mode. I've found that 1 - 2 hrs is usually
when
> > the batteries top out and roll over with voltage going down.
>
> Do I recall correctly that the Zivan has an LED that comes on
to indicate
> this mode? Maybe you could use that to set a timer.
Catching up on my EVDL stuff...
Yes, the Zivan has an LED that comes on when that mode starts.
However, I don't know how to sense it without blocking the LED.
The logic board that contains the LED is smack up against the
case. Tapping into the circuit board looks a little formidable,
although I could only see the backside of the circuit board. I
would think, however, that if I could figure out what's going
across the ribbon cable, I could tell when the constant I mode
starts.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lacking an emeter, you need to observe the sag in the batteries to determine
state of charge.
With a fresh charge, floor the accelerator and observe how far the battery
pack voltage sags. If your 288 volt string drops to 240, use that as your
reference voltage.
As you drive the car, note how much current (amps) you can draw before the
pack voltage drops to the reference voltage observed in the previous step.
As you get near end of charge, most batteries will produce about half the
current that they produced when full.
Example:
Flooring the accelerator pulls you batteries down to 240 volts at 500 amps.
As you drive, it will take
450 amps to draw them down to 240 volts, you are about 90% charged.
400 amps to draw them down to 240 volts, you are about 75% charged.
350 amps to draw them down to 240 volts, you are about 50% charged.
300 amps to draw them down to 240 volts, you are about 35% charged.
250 amps to draw them down to 240 volts, you are about 25% charged.
It is now time to look for an outlet.
When you get an emeter and/or more experience, you can refine these numbers.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 6:29 PM
Subject: A trip to the referee station
> I don't have an emeter yet, and next appointment would be mid april :-(
> (If I wait that long I loose plate "nomrgas" and go crazy)
> I will have amp gauge and voltmeter, but not much experience judging
> range off them.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike & Paula Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 3:27 AM
Subject: RE: Battery powered Trains
> That is a very nice article. Even better considering its from 1975.
Instant
> charging in cold weather is a nice feature of semiconductors. I'd hate to
> have to warm up my charger before I could begin charging :-D
>
> That got me thinking, and someone with a longer memory than mine can
correct
> me if I'm worng, Diesel-Electric plants in trains and ships have been
around
> long before the term Hybrid-Electric. If it can work for trains it can
> surely work for cars; same with all electric.
>
> Thanks for sharing the .pdf
>
> Mike
> Hi Mike;
Yur right Diesel Electric "Stuff" has been around for YEARS. But people
mix it up with the term " Hybrid" In a locomotive, or ship, too. The
Electric drive in " Diesel Electric"Is mearly A TRANSMISSION, To get the
power to the wheels. Diesel Hydralic lokies have been built , serve many RR
co. in less demanding service. Krause Maffee in Germany did some of there
for the Southern Pacific and Denver and Rio Grande, back in the 60'sThey
worked OK, but were sorta orphens in a diesel-electric world. One of the
many advantages of the electric transmissiomn is the habdy dynamic braking
system, used along with the air brake at the engineer's choice. This was one
of the fun things abouyt train engineering. You could hold back a heavy
freight train with a lashup of diesels. Of course the power is wasted off in
resistors, but it is more elegant than grinding off brake shoes.
The Rail Power Hybrid locomotives, the "Green Goats" are pure hybrids as
the OOMPH is really provided by tons of batteries, rather than a Big diesel
engine. In that it can run strictly on batteries OR a small diesel, provided
to keep the batteries charged. I don't think Rail Power offers a Plugitin
loco?The Chicago, North Shore and Milwaukee RR had a fleet of elecytric
locos WITH batteries aboard for switching non wired sidings. The batteries
were floated on charge when the engine was running under the catenery. Cool
Idea!Always thought this would work for trolley buses, to extending the
routes and detours.
Todaze modern diesels mearly are electric locomotives that schleppe
along their own substation.Very easy to fit them with 3rd rail shoes for
running indoors, or urben areas where the Dieasel smoke isn't desirable.With
a bit of creative engineering we could go a long way with simple solutions.
Keep on Training
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 17 Feb 2006 at 15:44, Chuck Hursch wrote:
> I don't know how to sense it without blocking the LED.
Phototransistor epoxied to the front of the LED?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't judge battery quality by them failing in UPS'es.
Many cheap UPS'es will cook batteries to death, that's
why so many UPS'es will fail when you need them.
Indeed, there are often Gels in a UPS, but not always.
The UB121100 AGM that I run 26 of in my US Electricar is
mainly used in standby power applications for rugged
environments, such as oil rigs, and for solar installations,
or so the engineer of the manufacturer told me.
But it's used for wheelchairs too.
I found an interesting overview from a renewable energy portal
that lists several battery types of different manufacturers
(among which MK Batteries) and they are all spec'ed at 5000
cycles, only some will sustain 10% DOD and others 50%.
The guesstimate of the UB engineer of max 500 full cycles seems
to be reflected by the 10% DOD for 5000 cycles on this site:
http://www.odysen.com/technologies/deepcyclebatteries.php
Higher DOD is for Deka, IBE, some Surrette and Trojans.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of John G. Lussmyer
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 8:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AGM failure
You are probably correct. I had forgotten about that....
At 02:44 PM 2/18/2006, Joel Hacker wrote:
>Aren't those normally Gel Cells in a battery backup system?
>
>John G. Lussmyer wrote:
>
>>Interesting, I just has some AGM batteries fail.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 8:39 AM -0800 2/18/06, John Wayland wrote:
.....
I vote every day for the EVs, and sure wish all who voted regularly
and propelled White Zombie to the number one spot, would do the same
for our EV friends fighting for next month's honor.
Am I the only one that thinks that three months of EV's in a row
might be boring to those not into EV's?
I'm all for having EV's in the top spot every now and then, but too
often and I think it reduces the effectiveness. I would think that
the gassers would think we have taken over the site (as our large
numbers certainly can) and then they might not go there as often.
I for one am going to wait a couple months, then we can try for #1 again.
Just my 20 milliwatts.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting resumes. Please see:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> No not really. The relationship between voltage and rpm is a design
> consideration. Yes high voltage makes it easier to achieve high RPM, but
> it isn't required. There have been 12,000 rpm brushed motors that run on
> 3V and 5000 RPM motors that run on 600V.
>
> Yes that is true, BUT not at the same torque or even the same hp. These
> things are all interrelated and tradeoffs exist.
> I was trying to offer some explination without going into the extream
> details, there are always exceptions.
>
> I was trying to point out how, from a converters standpoint, what
> difference the two AVAILABLE choices have. Sorry for the confusion.
>
I'm not following you. For one thing DC motors suitable for conversions
are readily available at voltages from 36V to 600V.
As many the folks that argue about drag racers point out, there is no law
of nature that directly links voltage to HP(or torque). You can find
motors designed for just about any voltage at a wide variety of HP.
Secondly there are MUCH more than two choices available to converters.
Granted the two commonly available AC systems are relatively low current
so they work better at high voltage, but there are numerous DC solutions
available and DC controllers that can handle high voltage (>300V). These
controllers will work with either the commonly availabe low voltage motors
(rated at 120V or less) or you can pay the bucks for a high voltage DC
motor. EIther way the resulting HP has less to do with the motor than it
does with what the controller can trow at it.
The bottom line is, it doesn't matter what the voltage is, just what the
power is. It also doesn't matter what the motors RPM is, since you are
almost certainly going to gear it down for the wheels. Granted -all else
being equal- higher ratio transmissions will have higher losses. However,
the difference is relatively small.
So it doesn't matter if you have a 12,000 RPM AC drive system running at
360V or a 6,000 RPM DC drive running at 120V, assuing similar system
efficiency, if you pull 60kw from the batteries you'll end up with
approximately 60hp at the wheels. With a given HP output, at the same
vehicle speed, you are going to get the same wheel torque.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you have questions about what can happen to a
Lithium battery and how it performs when it shorts
watch the Valence Battery video.
http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp
Now think about the high voltage that some vehicles
require and how little it takes for a spark to jump
and start a fire. Internal temperature sensors are
not going to help after a car accident. The plates in
the cells could be damaged and a catastrophic meltdown
can occur. Better batteries are the safer option.
--- Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I had asked:
>
> > 1) Has anyone ever seen or heard of a Lithium
> battery
> > actually shorting?
>
> No comments yet, so I did a web search...okay, these
> things do short
> sometimes.
> But the consensus out there is that the
> manufacturers are supposed to (and
> do) put mechanisms in place to prevent INTERNAL
> shorts from leading to any
> catastrophic destruction. Typically their approach
> is to create an internal
> polymer fusing link. Nevertheless, there are
> documented cases of alleged
> internal shorts leading to fires or worse:
> http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2005/HZB0501.pdf
> However, the primary vulnerability to short circuit
> is externally generated
> shorts. Further, even external circuit shorts
> aren't supposed to lead to
> fire or explosion due to the mechanisms the
> manufacturer is supposed to put
> in place.
> The biggest vulnerability to internal short is due
> to externally-penetrating
> objects. I'd guess the Kokam-style Lithiums would
> be particularly at risk
> here given their lack of a hard shell. Lack of an
> externally-induced short,
> internal shorts are said to be most likely due to
> overtemp which is
> something that the manufacturer puts the internal
> polymer fuse in there to
> handle.
>
> > 2) What is the likelihood of a short as a failure
> mechanism
> > for a Lithium
> > batt?
>
> As mentioned above, internal shorts are possible,
> but mechanisms are in
> place by the manufacturer to lead the cell to fuse
> open in case of a short
> or high heat.
> In the above 2004 NTSB study, AC Propulsion had
> shipped some Lithium battery
> modules and one had caught fire in shipment. Each
> of these "modules" was
> composed of 2 "blocks" of 68 cylindrical Lithium
> cells connected in parallel
> by spot welding to a grid at the top and bottom of
> each cell. Two blocks
> were then bolted together to form a 7.4v module.
>
> The NTSB conclusion for the fire source?
> They couldn't be certain, but the preponderance of
> evidence led them to
> believe that external metal "tools" floating around
> in the package had
> managed to bridge the modules external contacts
> leading to an external short
> circuit. This external short circuit then caused
> the package and batteries
> to begin to burn, which led to cells going overtemp,
> etc. I.E. they
> couldn't conclude that an internal short was the
> likely cause.
>
> Clearly ACP wasn't too concerned about paralleling a
> mass of Lithium
> batteries without fuses since each of their modules
> was configured as a
> 2S*(68P) config.
> Maybe they've since changed this?
>
> -Myles
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 2/18/06 7:26:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: Current Eliminator News The Sword slashed again
Date: 2/18/06 7:26:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
We went down in the 1st round today.Dialed CE at 11.90 ran an 11.874 to
break
out.At this power setting CE had never gone quicker than 11.906.This will
set
me back from 1st In the Summit points lead. Dennis Berub >>
Maybe not so bad though They through away your worst points day at the end of
the season. Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Jukka Järvinen"
I made 100 kWh pack. 139 cells in string with BMS. 200 Ah Li-Co (LCP)
cells. Kicks nicely 1 MW for 5 minutes. :)
500v 200ah ? When you say 1 MW dose that mean your where pulling 2000 amps
and had no voltage drop or 4000 amps and the voltage dropped to 250v ?
1 MW would be over 1000 hp .
Is there a web site on these " remarkable " batteries and what is the price
per ah. ?
Steve Clunn
weight 800 kg. 1000 x 1600 x 1600 mm size. Fits nícely in the back of Van
if necessary.
-Jukka
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Sepänkatu 3
11710 RIHIMÄKI
FINLAND
VAT ID: FI18534078
jukka.jarvinen(a_t)fevt.com
mobile. +358-440-735705
fax. +358-19-735705
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This video is intelligent marketing, they use cobalt cells which are well
known for spectacular reaction to such abuse.
try the same test (as i did) with manganese cells and nothing at all will
happen !!!
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "lyle sloan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 2:52 PM
Subject: RE: Lithiums in Parallel (was: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go
Lithium!!!)
> If you have questions about what can happen to a
> Lithium battery and how it performs when it shorts
> watch the Valence Battery video.
> http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp
>
> Now think about the high voltage that some vehicles
> require and how little it takes for a spark to jump
> and start a fire. Internal temperature sensors are
> not going to help after a car accident. The plates in
> the cells could be damaged and a catastrophic meltdown
> can occur. Better batteries are the safer option.
>
> --- Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I had asked:
> >
> > > 1) Has anyone ever seen or heard of a Lithium
> > battery
> > > actually shorting?
> >
> > No comments yet, so I did a web search...okay, these
> > things do short
> > sometimes.
> > But the consensus out there is that the
> > manufacturers are supposed to (and
> > do) put mechanisms in place to prevent INTERNAL
> > shorts from leading to any
> > catastrophic destruction. Typically their approach
> > is to create an internal
> > polymer fusing link. Nevertheless, there are
> > documented cases of alleged
> > internal shorts leading to fires or worse:
> > http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2005/HZB0501.pdf
> > However, the primary vulnerability to short circuit
> > is externally generated
> > shorts. Further, even external circuit shorts
> > aren't supposed to lead to
> > fire or explosion due to the mechanisms the
> > manufacturer is supposed to put
> > in place.
> > The biggest vulnerability to internal short is due
> > to externally-penetrating
> > objects. I'd guess the Kokam-style Lithiums would
> > be particularly at risk
> > here given their lack of a hard shell. Lack of an
> > externally-induced short,
> > internal shorts are said to be most likely due to
> > overtemp which is
> > something that the manufacturer puts the internal
> > polymer fuse in there to
> > handle.
> >
> > > 2) What is the likelihood of a short as a failure
> > mechanism
> > > for a Lithium
> > > batt?
> >
> > As mentioned above, internal shorts are possible,
> > but mechanisms are in
> > place by the manufacturer to lead the cell to fuse
> > open in case of a short
> > or high heat.
> > In the above 2004 NTSB study, AC Propulsion had
> > shipped some Lithium battery
> > modules and one had caught fire in shipment. Each
> > of these "modules" was
> > composed of 2 "blocks" of 68 cylindrical Lithium
> > cells connected in parallel
> > by spot welding to a grid at the top and bottom of
> > each cell. Two blocks
> > were then bolted together to form a 7.4v module.
> >
> > The NTSB conclusion for the fire source?
> > They couldn't be certain, but the preponderance of
> > evidence led them to
> > believe that external metal "tools" floating around
> > in the package had
> > managed to bridge the modules external contacts
> > leading to an external short
> > circuit. This external short circuit then caused
> > the package and batteries
> > to begin to burn, which led to cells going overtemp,
> > etc. I.E. they
> > couldn't conclude that an internal short was the
> > likely cause.
> >
> > Clearly ACP wasn't too concerned about paralleling a
> > mass of Lithium
> > batteries without fuses since each of their modules
> > was configured as a
> > 2S*(68P) config.
> > Maybe they've since changed this?
> >
> > -Myles
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry to hear it. Must have had the wind at your back.
At 2/18/2006 09:25 PM, you wrote:
We went down in the 1st round today.Dialed CE at 11.90 ran an 11.874 to break
out.At this power setting CE had never gone quicker than 11.906.This will set
me back from 1st In the Summit points lead. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I hate to break this to you, but they are made by ThunderSky. Excellent
batteries when used correctly.
One remarkable feature of ThunderSky is that they can make custom cells.
No. There is no site to promoto this pack.. yet.
When the cycle life is not the most important issue with pack but the
power is compromises can be done. Even in electrolyte level.
-Jukka
STEVE CLUNN kirjoitti:
From: "Jukka Järvinen"
I made 100 kWh pack. 139 cells in string with BMS. 200 Ah Li-Co (LCP)
cells. Kicks nicely 1 MW for 5 minutes. :)
500v 200ah ? When you say 1 MW dose that mean your where pulling 2000
amps and had no voltage drop or 4000 amps and the voltage dropped to 250v ?
1 MW would be over 1000 hp .
Is there a web site on these " remarkable " batteries and what is the
price per ah. ?
Steve Clunn
weight 800 kg. 1000 x 1600 x 1600 mm size. Fits nícely in the back of
Van if necessary.
-Jukka
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Sepänkatu 3
11710 RIHIMÄKI
FINLAND
VAT ID: FI18534078
jukka.jarvinen(a_t)fevt.com
mobile. +358-440-735705
fax. +358-19-735705
--
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Sepänkatu 3
11710 RIHIMÄKI
FINLAND
VAT ID: FI18534078
jukka.jarvinen(a_t)fevt.com
mobile. +358-440-735705
fax. +358-19-735705
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you want to use Duracell brand, Phillipe, go right
ahead. LITHIUM ION was what was discussed about in
the Monster Garage Build which the majority of
industry uses cobalt.
--- Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> This video is intelligent marketing, they use cobalt
> cells which are well
> known for spectacular reaction to such abuse.
>
> try the same test (as i did) with manganese cells
> and nothing at all will
> happen !!!
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du
> volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "lyle sloan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 2:52 PM
> Subject: RE: Lithiums in Parallel (was: RE: Jesse
> James & Monster Garage Go
> Lithium!!!)
>
>
> > If you have questions about what can happen to a
> > Lithium battery and how it performs when it shorts
> > watch the Valence Battery video.
> > http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp
> >
> > Now think about the high voltage that some
> vehicles
> > require and how little it takes for a spark to
> jump
> > and start a fire. Internal temperature sensors
> are
> > not going to help after a car accident. The
> plates in
> > the cells could be damaged and a catastrophic
> meltdown
> > can occur. Better batteries are the safer option.
> >
> > --- Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > I had asked:
> > >
> > > > 1) Has anyone ever seen or heard of a Lithium
> > > battery
> > > > actually shorting?
> > >
> > > No comments yet, so I did a web search...okay,
> these
> > > things do short
> > > sometimes.
> > > But the consensus out there is that the
> > > manufacturers are supposed to (and
> > > do) put mechanisms in place to prevent INTERNAL
> > > shorts from leading to any
> > > catastrophic destruction. Typically their
> approach
> > > is to create an internal
> > > polymer fusing link. Nevertheless, there are
> > > documented cases of alleged
> > > internal shorts leading to fires or worse:
> > > http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2005/HZB0501.pdf
> > > However, the primary vulnerability to short
> circuit
> > > is externally generated
> > > shorts. Further, even external circuit shorts
> > > aren't supposed to lead to
> > > fire or explosion due to the mechanisms the
> > > manufacturer is supposed to put
> > > in place.
> > > The biggest vulnerability to internal short is
> due
> > > to externally-penetrating
> > > objects. I'd guess the Kokam-style Lithiums
> would
> > > be particularly at risk
> > > here given their lack of a hard shell. Lack of
> an
> > > externally-induced short,
> > > internal shorts are said to be most likely due
> to
> > > overtemp which is
> > > something that the manufacturer puts the
> internal
> > > polymer fuse in there to
> > > handle.
> > >
> > > > 2) What is the likelihood of a short as a
> failure
> > > mechanism
> > > > for a Lithium
> > > > batt?
> > >
> > > As mentioned above, internal shorts are
> possible,
> > > but mechanisms are in
> > > place by the manufacturer to lead the cell to
> fuse
> > > open in case of a short
> > > or high heat.
> > > In the above 2004 NTSB study, AC Propulsion had
> > > shipped some Lithium battery
> > > modules and one had caught fire in shipment.
> Each
> > > of these "modules" was
> > > composed of 2 "blocks" of 68 cylindrical Lithium
> > > cells connected in parallel
> > > by spot welding to a grid at the top and bottom
> of
> > > each cell. Two blocks
> > > were then bolted together to form a 7.4v module.
> > >
> > > The NTSB conclusion for the fire source?
> > > They couldn't be certain, but the preponderance
> of
> > > evidence led them to
> > > believe that external metal "tools" floating
> around
> > > in the package had
> > > managed to bridge the modules external contacts
> > > leading to an external short
> > > circuit. This external short circuit then
> caused
> > > the package and batteries
> > > to begin to burn, which led to cells going
> overtemp,
> > > etc. I.E. they
> > > couldn't conclude that an internal short was the
> > > likely cause.
> > >
> > > Clearly ACP wasn't too concerned about
> paralleling a
> > > mass of Lithium
> > > batteries without fuses since each of their
> modules
> > > was configured as a
> > > 2S*(68P) config.
> > > Maybe they've since changed this?
> > >
> > > -Myles
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
