EV digest 5190

Sun, 19 Feb 2006 21:08:05 -0800 

                            EV Digest 5190

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: was Jesse James/ now fuse's
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Electrifying the Portland Rod and Custom Show
        by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Driving 45 mph on the freeway?
        by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Volumetric energy density of Lithium battery
        by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Lithiums in Parallel (was: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go
   Lithium!!!)
        by =?windows-1252?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) charger idea
        by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) RE: charger idea
        by "Larry Bush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Free snowblower
        by Marc Breitman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Steel commutators, was: RE: Why not more 
        by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: charger idea
        by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Battery powered Trains, and hybrids
        by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Steel commutators, was: RE: Why not more 
        by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: charger idea
        by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) RE: charger idea
        by "Larry Bush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: charger idea
        by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: EV1 BMS and Temp Management
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 17) Re: Hawker AeroBattery: Anyone have pricing / availability?
        by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Kilovac on Ebay
        by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) not so micro turbine hybrid
        by paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: Dragtimes Vote
        by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Steel commutators, was: RE: Why not more 
        by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: Current Eliminator News   The Sword slashed again
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: Lithiums in Parallel (was: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go   
Lithium!!!)
        by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: charger idea
        by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: Steel commutators, was: RE: Why not more 
        by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) EVs Knock Down two 1st & one 3rd Place Trophies at Rod & Custom Show!
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- 
STEVE CLUNN wrote:
> Hi Lee. The point I was trying to make is that even a 600 amp fuse with
> a 2,000 amp controller and 264 volts of orbitals still in not blowing
> in a real world conduction (1/4 mile drag race auto cross).

Right. The controller steps the voltage down, and the current up. So
battery current is always less than motor current.

> Should I put a bigger fuse in ? :-)

Not if you don't need to! The smallest fuse that still holds in during
normal use provides the best protection. It will blow sooner in case of
a problem. The sooner it blows, the less damage that gets done to
whatever caused it to blow. And that means less money to fix it.
-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hey all
   
  I wanted to give everyone a report of how a small handful of EV’ers 
electrified the Portland Rod and Custom Show this weekend.  Matt and I played 
hooky Friday and headed off over the mountain bright and early.  The morning 
was cold and the roads icy and the trek over the mountain slower than normal.  
We arrived just when the Expo was kicking everyone out to prepare for the 
public.  This allowed us all to get a bite to eat and to visit before the 
actual show started.  Wayland, FT, and Tim had worked hard to set the booth up, 
as there were 3 vehicles crammed into a single style rope-off area, hehe.  Eye 
candy filled every space available inside the Expo building, with nothing but 
beautiful cars and bikes everywhere.  Tucked back in one of the far corners 
lurked the 3 EV’s and the little cramped display.  
   
  For a Friday I was surprised by how many people where there.  The attention 
the EV’s got was amazing!!  I heard statements like “they’re hiding an engine 
in back, LMAO! Referring to WZ.  I saw girlfriends and wives see the EV’s and 
poke their partner with a “look at that” gesture and steer them to the display, 
how cool is that?  Even a couple of people who had their clock cleaned by WZ 
recognized the car and were just smoked to see what was under the hood, and 
left shaking their heads.  
   
  Now being that our group consisted of 5 people we tended to block our own 
display, which really sucked (although Matt was there more for the eye candy in 
both car and female form, hehehe).  Even this became a mute problem when the 
huge groups of people would form and the Q&A would begin.  I watched countless 
people blow by the display do to the wall of people looking and asking 
questions already there.  I had brought my laptop and had some pics looping but 
I couldn’t play any of the good DVD’s we had, what a bummer indeed as a lot of 
people just wouldn’t couldn’t believe the WZ’s times.  
   
  Saturday brought a new tool to our arsenal in trying to capture the audience 
with a little eye popping proof of the cars capabilities.  A small TV was set 
up using a loop of 4 or 5 Zombie runs playing and was just set atop the car.  I 
loved watching the jaws drops and smiles it produced, and in fact started many 
discussions by saying that we call that the EV grin so often quoted here  8^  
).  I thought Friday was packed but Saturday was insane.  The groups forming 
around the display often pushed to the ropes of the opposite display.  
   
  I have to go back to Friday now with a little side story.  As I said they 
kick everyone out to prepare for the public.  As we were exiting I noticed a 
guy unloading batteries from a van, for me nothing special.  Wayland also sees 
this but also sees that they are Hawker batteries, hehehe.  He swooped down on 
that guy like a buzzard on a rabbit carcass!!! LMAO.  I’ll let Wayland share 
more in depth but it was a very awesome chance meeting that could lead to even 
greater sponsorship for John via a direct corporate link.  BTW he was there 
delivering batteries for a wheelie standing electric golf cart of all things.
   
  As an overview of the entire weekend it was a huge success.  I was horse from 
all the talking, and my legs and back ached with all the standing by the end of 
each day.  John and Tim seemed to receive some type of sick satisfaction in 
pointing me out as the motor guy anytime the motor was mentioned.  I saw John 
taking more than one picture of me flailing my arms as I oozed in both passion 
and excitement like some mad conductor.  
   
  In as much as we had our hands full with WZ, FT was running around like a 
20-year-old fielding questions about his bike and the Legend car that sponsored 
the booth.   I left around 6:30 Saturday evening to head back over the mountain 
and left the group to today’s event.  Even John doubts that WZ will receive an 
award and at the time of my leaving his was about the only paperwork that 
didn’t have the mysterious red dot attached.  In fact earlier I had noticed a 
couple that also didn’t have dots.  I told John and he says show me.  Just as 
we arrive, there are 3 judges placing the red dot on the paperwork, how funny 
is that??  Regardless of the outcome the EV display was a huge success, and if 
they gave out a public attention / reaction award this display would win hands 
down.
  I hope you all enjoyed the post, thanks for letting me rattle, as I do have a 
bit of an EV hangover this morning, hehehe!
  Cya all
  Cya
  Jim Husted
  Hi-Torque Electric
   
   

                
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I disagree with the opinion that slow vehicles in the right lane pose a particular hazard. All decent drivers know to expect this.
No offense intended, but this is not an opinion, but a well established fact. Many accidents are caused by drivers that are going either well above or well below the average speed of traffic. My parents were both cops and they hammered the "go with the flow" point home when I was learning to drive, showing me statistics and studies gathered at the time. They even taught this fact in Driver's Ed back in the mid 80's (when I was in high school).
The number one cause of all accidents is reported to be "driver inattention" according to the NHTSA and if you are going substantially slower than those around you, you put yourself and others at much greater risk of collision.
I know it is not happy news, but it is well established in the studies and crash analysis. Just because you are in the "right" doesn't make you any less hurt in a crash. 

-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
To have a custom cell you just need to commit to buy 4000 such cells :)
Yes. Such cells will be available and I will put them on my Drag equipment during following summer.
But but.. Let's still keep our pants on... I wan't also see how they will perform on EV too. Wait for my further posts. 

You have NO idea how excited I AM... Feels like ants under skin...
We are working HARD with TS to have the packs broadly available for EV community.. and with a affordable price too.. There are no sides here.
Guys... If you would know whatta EV crazy guys we have in China making us a good battery... It makes a HUGE difference. TS cells were designed mainly for EVs. We are testing all kinds of funny stuff and having laughs. 

Its like ....Chinese Woodburn... :)


-Jukka


STEVE CLUNN kirjoitti:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jukka Järvinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: Volumetric energy density of Lithium battery
I hate to break this to you, but they are made by ThunderSky. Excellent batteries when used correctly. 


Good , I'd like to hear about them , and how they are working for you .


One remarkable feature of ThunderSky is that they can make custom cells.
What is the difference in price , what is this price now . ? about :-) ( maybe in ah / dollars ) I have a lawn mower that I get to cycle the batteries quite a bit , sometimes 7 %40 dod a day , I also fast charge them as to charge the mower in 15 min between jobs . I have been thinking this would be a good battery test bed . I could add one battery to the string and watch it perform with the lead. Right now I'm using a 52 ah batterie and use 50 to 100 amp it run . 


No. There is no site to promoto this pack.. yet.

Are you going to be selling them ?
When the cycle life is not the most important issue with pack but the power is compromises can be done. Even in electrolyte level. 


Well now I know how some feel when reading my post , what dose that mean?
Steve Clunn





-Jukka


STEVE CLUNN kirjoitti:

From: "Jukka Järvinen"
I made 100 kWh pack. 139 cells in string with BMS. 200 Ah Li-Co (LCP) cells. Kicks nicely 1 MW for 5 minutes. :)
500v 200ah ? When you say 1 MW dose that mean your where pulling 2000 amps and had no voltage drop or 4000 amps and the voltage dropped to 250v ? 
1 MW would be over 1000 hp .
Is there a web site on these " remarkable " batteries and what is the price per ah. ? 
Steve Clunn
weight 800 kg. 1000 x 1600 x 1600 mm size. Fits nícely in the back of Van if necessary. 

-Jukka




Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Sepänkatu 3
11710 RIHIMÄKI
FINLAND
VAT ID: FI18534078

jukka.jarvinen(a_t)fevt.com
mobile. +358-440-735705
fax. +358-19-735705








--
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Sepänkatu 3
11710 RIHIMÄKI
FINLAND
VAT ID: FI18534078

jukka.jarvinen(a_t)fevt.com
mobile. +358-440-735705
fax. +358-19-735705








--
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Sepänkatu 3
11710 RIHIMÄKI
FINLAND
VAT ID: FI18534078

jukka.jarvinen(a_t)fevt.com
mobile. +358-440-735705
fax. +358-19-735705

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I am so sorry for the BS patch of the TS cells. They should have been thrown away but there were "economistis" in TS at that time to take care nothing was wasted.
Those and some other cells really should have NEVER EVER left the building. but... it is hard to do anything after the shit is in the pants.
TS has never been a multibillion company but will grow such. Also capabilities to repair everything have been limited.
There have been a lot of things that have required the "cleaning group" after some idiot made bad decisions. I have my own duster ... no .. it is a $€#@ bulldozer... to bo it. 

I'm sooo happy Winston runs the TS company again. It is a releif.

There is a light year difference with cells 3 years ago and today.

-Jukka


Lee Hart kirjoitti:

Marco electromc wrote:

Lee do you mean thunderskys are crappy from factory?
Or the ones you have happen to be not so good?


I bought them cheap, from the factory, as part of a group buy, and got
what I paid for. :-( Good for learning and experiments; useless for an
EV (though might work for something very small like a scooter or
electric bike).

I think Thundersky shipped us old/defective units, which never performed
up to specs. Others ran into the same sort of thing. Quality control is
often a risk with Chinese products.


--
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Sepänkatu 3
11710 RIHIMÄKI
FINLAND
VAT ID: FI18534078

jukka.jarvinen(a_t)fevt.com
mobile. +358-440-735705
fax. +358-19-735705

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I was wondering if I was trying to charge a 120 Volt
DC pack, and a got a 10 computer power supplies giving
12 volts dc each, could I connect them to charge my
batteries?

I guess I would need a timer, so they won't get over
charged.

Thanks in advance.
Mike
Fairbanks

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
NO  

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of mike golub
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 2:59 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: charger idea

I was wondering if I was trying to charge a 120 Volt DC pack, and a got a 10
computer power supplies giving
12 volts dc each, could I connect them to charge my batteries?

I guess I would need a timer, so they won't get over charged.

Thanks in advance.
Mike
Fairbanks

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
The blower still available? I work at a toro retail/warranty station and I
would be happy to take it in.

On 2/19/06, M.G. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I have several to choose from btu the one I lie so far is a .83 hp perm
> mag motor. I am just experimenting and I think this motor will be barely
> powerful enough if it is at all. The snow thrower is an open chute toro
> that has vanes to direct the snow. The engine I am removing is a 2 hp 2
> stroke.
> I chose this motor because it runs on 24 volts not 36 or 48 like the
> other motors I have.
> 24 volts means less weight in batteries.
> If I were converting a snow thrower like yours I would choose a series
> wound motor that runs on 36 or 48 volts from a forklift hydraulic pump
> setup.
> Mike G.
>
> >Mike, what kind of motor are you using for the snow blower (series,
> shunt,
> >compound) and how many HP?  I've got an 8HP ICE snowblower that I'm
> thinking
> >about converting.  Thanks.
> >
> >Bill Dennis
> >
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
At 10:00 AM 19/02/06 -0800, Jim Husted wrote:
I was informed solidly (as he goes there alot) that "no one" is or has the ability any longer to make steel comm's even at higher prices at least as far as these motors go. He suggests that once those comms are gone they are gone. 

G'day all
Maybe this is an opportunity for a small start-up business for someone with the right tools and background?
What does it take to make a steel commutator anyway? As far as I can see, it shouldn't be that complex a job for a half-decent machinist, except for making the tapered commutator segments - but that isn't unsurmountable, I can think of a couple of ways straight off the top of my head. 

Has anyone got a link to somewhere showing the construction of a steel comm?

If not then a description?

Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Yes.

After verifying a few things, such as the output's isolation from
ground and from the line and active PF compensation.  Otherwise, 10
supplies probably won't run on one or even 2 branch circuits.

I'd probably not just plop down 10 supplies and wire 'em together,
though.  Most PC supplies that I've looked at have two separate 12
volt windings on the output transformer. If you separate the grounds,
you can hook then in series for 24 volts.  Half as many supplies
needed that way.  AT the cost of half the charging current, of course.

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 15:25:24 -0600, "Larry Bush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>NO  
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of mike golub
>Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 2:59 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: charger idea
>
>I was wondering if I was trying to charge a 120 Volt DC pack, and a got a 10
>computer power supplies giving
>12 volts dc each, could I connect them to charge my batteries?
>
>I guess I would need a timer, so they won't get over charged.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>Mike
>Fairbanks
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com 
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hi Bob,

I don't know if you could truly call the Goat a 'full hybrid.'  Not only
can it NOT be plugged in, but the regen uses the same resistor grids as
all other diesel-electrics, so the energy is wasted as heat.  The only
advantage comes from the fact that they can use a smaller cleaner diesel
engine.
I was hoping that Metrolink and other heavy commuter rail could use these, 
since they stop every two to three miles and spend a lot of time idling.
But without the ability to recharge through regen, the Goat misses a big
part of the energy efficiency boat.

Tim


---------
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: February 18, 2006 10:39:59 PM PST
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Battery powered Trains, and hybrids
The Rail Power Hybrid locomotives, the "Green Goats" are pure hybrids as the OOMPH is really provided by tons of batteries, rather than a Big diesel engine. In that it can run strictly on batteries OR a small diesel, provided to keep the batteries charged. I don't think Rail Power offers a Plugitin 
loco?The Chicago, North Shore and Milwaukee RR had a fleet of elecytric
locos WITH batteries aboard for switching non wired sidings. The batteries were floated on charge when the engine was running under the catenery. Cool 
Idea!Always thought this would work for trolley buses, to extending the
routes and detours.

    Todaze modern diesels mearly are electric locomotives that schleppe
along their own substation.Very easy to fit them with 3rd rail shoes for
running indoors, or urben areas where the Dieasel smoke isn't desirable.With a bit of creative engineering we could go a long way with simple solutions. 

   Keep on Training

   Bob

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
This would be a simple CNC job.  Why don't you design one, import the
design into eMachineShop.com's free CAD/CAM software and see how it
costs out?  Their CAD software costs the job on the fly.

The ultimate design would be an integral comm/shaft, all one piece.
Nothing to come loose that way.

If I were doing this project, I'd design it to use off-the-shelf bars.
Lots cheaper that way and a lot easier to repair.

John

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:03:33 +1100, James Massey
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>At 10:00 AM 19/02/06 -0800, Jim Husted wrote:
>>I was informed solidly (as he goes there alot) that "no one" is or has the 
>>ability any longer to make steel comm's even at higher prices at least as 
>>far as these motors go.  He suggests that once those comms are gone they 
>>are gone.
>
>G'day all
>
>Maybe this is an opportunity for a small start-up business for someone with 
>the right tools and background?
>
>What does it take to make a steel commutator anyway? As far as I can see, 
>it shouldn't be that complex a job for a half-decent machinist, except for 
>making the tapered commutator segments -  but that isn't unsurmountable, I 
>can think of a couple of ways straight off the top of my head.
>
>Has anyone got a link to somewhere showing the construction of a steel comm?
>
>If not then a description?
>
>Regards
>
>James 
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
The problem with this is computer power supplies aren't ment to charge 
batteries. You need almost 15 volts to charge a 12 volt battery and computer 
power supplies are designed to output 12.0 volts. You might be able to tweak it 
some and get the output to go higher, but I would think some regular automotive 
battery chargers would be better for this (assuming they are isolated otherwise 
you will have sparks).

mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  I was wondering if I was trying to 
charge a 120 Volt
DC pack, and a got a 10 computer power supplies giving
12 volts dc each, could I connect them to charge my
batteries?

I guess I would need a timer, so they won't get over
charged.

Thanks in advance.
Mike
Fairbanks

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Mike,

Trying to wire 10 PC power supplies to charge a 120 volt battery not a very
practical idea.
You would have no method to regulate the amount of charge.
You could however build-up a charger which you could regulate the charger
current for about $100.
If your interested send me your email address and I'll send you a diagram
and where you can obtain the parts.

Larry



-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of mike golub
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 2:59 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: charger idea

I was wondering if I was trying to charge a 120 Volt DC pack, and a got a 10
computer power supplies giving
12 volts dc each, could I connect them to charge my batteries?

I guess I would need a timer, so they won't get over charged.

Thanks in advance.
Mike
Fairbanks

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- And how do you create the absorption voltage and float voltage change, typically 14.6 then down to 13.3 (for floodeds) That and the 12 volt outputs on a PC power supply is about an amp. 

Answer is not so much no as don't bother wasting your time.




Mark Grasser
Subject: Re: charger idea



Yes.

After verifying a few things, such as the output's isolation from
ground and from the line and active PF compensation.  Otherwise, 10
supplies probably won't run on one or even 2 branch circuits.

I'd probably not just plop down 10 supplies and wire 'em together,
though.  Most PC supplies that I've looked at have two separate 12
volt windings on the output transformer. If you separate the grounds,
you can hook then in series for 24 volts.  Half as many supplies
needed that way.  AT the cost of half the charging current, of course.

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 15:25:24 -0600, "Larry Bush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:


NO

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of mike golub
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 2:59 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: charger idea
I was wondering if I was trying to charge a 120 Volt DC pack, and a got a 10 
computer power supplies giving
12 volts dc each, could I connect them to charge my batteries?

I guess I would need a timer, so they won't get over charged.

Thanks in advance.
Mike
Fairbanks

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 


I am curious about the EV1.  Did it have any sort of battery management:

    - overcharge/undercharge protection


The charger took care of this. The driver just plugged the car in.
Also it would do a equalization charge when the computer determined the batteries needed it. While driving when the SOC got too low or a battery got too hot, the car would go into a reduced power mode which kept the current draw low. Also the battery location was not designed for the nimh batteries so there were cooling problems especially with the rear batteries. When a battery got too hot the car could go from having a calculated range of 26 miles(on the dash) 
to zero and go into reduced power mode.


    - battery balancing
    - temp compensation


The batteries were kept at a certain temp by the heating and cooling system.
The lead cars needed the heater in the winter, and the nimh cars needed the
air conditioner to cool the batteries whenever. This lead to a sometimes long
charge time in the summer in California. I believe there were no Arizona nimh
cars for this reason. The air conditioner would cool the batteries while charging or driving, so if the batteries were too hot the air was not cooling the cabin while 
you were driving.
There was no active balancing like a reg does but by keeping the batteries the 
same temp and doing an equalizing charge when needed. Some people think the
Panasonic lead acid car was the best one because it didn't have the heat problems 
and would go up to 110 miles and have a fast recharge time.



Also, did it have any facility for heating or cooling the batteries while
charging.  E.g.  In the wintertime did it warm the batteries while charging?

thanks
Don

Don Cameron
Director - Project Septimus
Cameron Motorworks - a Division of CSL

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
http://www.remybattery.com/350/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=343&subcat=477&cat=Odyssey%3Cbr%3EPower+Sports+%2F+Motorcycle

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Kilovac Czonka II currently on Ebay:  7592194352

Bill Dennis

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this is an interesting EV1. Not so much as a hybrid though.
  http://ev1-club.power.net/archive/990220/ejet.htm
   

                
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Brings words and photos together (easily) with
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I for one am going to wait a couple months, then we can try for #1 again.
Just my 20 milliwatts.
I wonder if all those orders for big controllers that people who see drag time are making has got you over worked . :-) . 
steve clunn


Yup! You figured me out!
I'm just trying to slow orders down a bit so I can have a break in the flood waters here. :-) 

-Otmar-
Testing five Z2K's today and still have five on order after these, not to mention all the Z1K's that are running a bit behind schedule. 
--
http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting resumes. Please see:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html

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G'day John, and all

At 04:45 PM 19/02/06 -0500, John wrote:

This would be a simple CNC job.  Why don't you design one, import the
design into eMachineShop.com's free CAD/CAM software and see how it
costs out?  Their CAD software costs the job on the fly.

The ultimate design would be an integral comm/shaft, all one piece.
Nothing to come loose that way.

If I were doing this project, I'd design it to use off-the-shelf bars.
Lots cheaper that way and a lot easier to repair.
Yes, those are along the ideas that I'm having, but (as always) "the devil is in the details":-
With what material should the comm segments be insulated from one another and the clamping cones? How much copper needs to be 'inside' the cones and at what angle to keep them there?
I'm sure there are lots of other details I haven't thought of yet, which is why construction details would be good. I'm not going to take either of the two motors that I have with steel comms apart just to get the details.
It may be possible to just take an oversized bakelite comm, machine the ends for cones, machine some cones and conical insulators and put it all together. Jim Husted, any input on that idea?
Starting from scratch, copper bar machined to the profile of the commutator bars, then machined into the tapered segments, or machine rings of the right profile and section them out with a slitting saw (probably need to do several extra bars or shrink the diameter to the finished size to close up the gaps). 


On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:03:33 +1100, James Massey
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>At 10:00 AM 19/02/06 -0800, Jim Husted wrote:
>>I was informed solidly (as he goes there alot) that "no one" is or has the
>>ability any longer to make steel comm's even at higher prices at least as
>>far as these motors go.  He suggests that once those comms are gone they
>>are gone.
>
>G'day all
>
>Maybe this is an opportunity for a small start-up business for someone with
>the right tools and background?
>
>What does it take to make a steel commutator anyway? As far as I can see,
>it shouldn't be that complex a job for a half-decent machinist, except for
>making the tapered commutator segments -  but that isn't unsurmountable, I
>can think of a couple of ways straight off the top of my head.
>
>Has anyone got a link to somewhere showing the construction of a steel comm?
>
>If not then a description?

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Musta had a tailwind.  Too bad.  LR.........
----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: Current Eliminator News The Sword slashed again
We went down in the 1st round today.Dialed CE at 11.90 ran an 11.874 to break out.At this power setting CE had never gone quicker than 11.906.This will set 
me back from 1st In the Summit points lead.    Dennis Berube

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Jukka Järvinen" <
I am so sorry for the BS patch of the TS cells. They should have been thrown away but there were "economistis" in TS at that time to take care nothing was wasted.
Those and some other cells really should have NEVER EVER left the building. but... it is hard to do anything after the shit is in the pants.
Good to hear what happened as many where watching those to took the first step and wondered what happened , when others did better later it seemed . . it sounds like your back on the right track ,
There have been a lot of things that have required the "cleaning group" after some idiot made bad decisions. I have my own duster ... no .. it is a $€#@ bulldozer... to bo it. 

I'm sooo happy Winston runs the TS company again. It is a releif.

There is a light year difference with cells 3 years ago and today.


Great , keep us up to date.
Steve Clunn




-Jukka


Lee Hart kirjoitti:

Marco electromc wrote:

Lee do you mean thunderskys are crappy from factory?
Or the ones you have happen to be not so good?


I bought them cheap, from the factory, as part of a group buy, and got
what I paid for. :-( Good for learning and experiments; useless for an
EV (though might work for something very small like a scooter or
electric bike).

I think Thundersky shipped us old/defective units, which never performed
up to specs. Others ran into the same sort of thing. Quality control is
often a risk with Chinese products.


--
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Sepänkatu 3
11710 RIHIMÄKI
FINLAND
VAT ID: FI18534078

jukka.jarvinen(a_t)fevt.com
mobile. +358-440-735705
fax. +358-19-735705

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On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 17:05:56 -0500, "Mark Grasser"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>And how do you create the absorption voltage and float voltage change, 
>typically 14.6 then down to 13.3 (for floodeds) That and the 12 volt outputs 
>on a PC power supply is about an amp.

Since he didn't ask that, I didn't comment.  

You need to go back and look at a few PC power supplies.  The first
POS ATX power supply I laid my hands on in my junk box is a 230 watt
one that retails for all of $20.  The 12 volt rating is 8 amps.  The
next one I pulled out was a 400 watt supply with a 13 amp 12 volt
rating.  (About the first hit on google was for supplies from NewEgg
which lists the specs.  A quick google would save you from looking
foolish.)

Those ratings assume the other outputs are loaded to spec.  With no
load on the 5 volt or 3.3 volt outputs, one can safely draw
significantly more than spec amps from the 12 volt output.  You'd know
that if you'd ever actually used one for anything other than PC power.

There is no need to hack in voltage adjustments or any of the other
stuff mentioned by others in this thread.  Simply add more supplies to
get the voltage desired.  Once the various output commons are
separated (usually just a cut on the PCB), the outputs can be seriesed
as needed to step the voltage up in increments of 12, 5 or 3.3.  The
12 volt out regulation is typically soft enough that no mods will be
needed to operate in quasi-constant current mode.

To answer the question the OP didn't ask, all one needs to do to
change from the bulk/absorption phase to float is to cut out one or
more supplies from the series string.  A simple relay will accomplish
that.

>
>Answer is not so much no as don't bother wasting your time.

Actually that's not the answer.  He asked about the possibility and
not an invitation to evaluate the value he places on his time.  If he
can snarf up a load of very cheap supplies, say, from a PC salvage
operation then investing a little time to turn them into a charger is
highly practical.  Little to nothing is required over and above the
necessary hookup wire, perhaps a relay and suitable protective
devices.

Given the huge number of watts per dollar, PC supplies are very
versatile units.  I don't really care whether the supply is 80 or 90%
efficient or whether the MTBF is 50k or 100k hours as long as they're
dirt-cheap.  The basic architecture is there - high voltage switching,
high frequency transformer, driver circuitry - with all the hairy high
voltage engineering already done for you.  The output is open to all
sorts of hacking if desired.  One can open the transformer core,
remove the windings, replace them with one winding of the desired
voltage, scale the voltage regulation resistors as necessary and have
a power supply equal to a general purpose one costing many times that
much.  Battery charging is only one of many applications.

John
>
>
>
>
>Mark Grasser
> Subject: Re: charger idea
>
>
>> Yes.
>>
>> After verifying a few things, such as the output's isolation from
>> ground and from the line and active PF compensation.  Otherwise, 10
>> supplies probably won't run on one or even 2 branch circuits.
>>
>> I'd probably not just plop down 10 supplies and wire 'em together,
>> though.  Most PC supplies that I've looked at have two separate 12
>> volt windings on the output transformer. If you separate the grounds,
>> you can hook then in series for 24 volts.  Half as many supplies
>> needed that way.  AT the cost of half the charging current, of course.
>>
>> On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 15:25:24 -0600, "Larry Bush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>NO
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>>Behalf Of mike golub
>>>Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 2:59 PM
>>>To: [email protected]
>>>Subject: charger idea
>>>
>>>I was wondering if I was trying to charge a 120 Volt DC pack, and a got a 
>>>10
>>>computer power supplies giving
>>>12 volts dc each, could I connect them to charge my batteries?
>>>
>>>I guess I would need a timer, so they won't get over charged.
>>>
>>>Thanks in advance.
>>>Mike
>>>Fairbanks
>>>
>>>__________________________________________________
>>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>
>> ---
>> John De Armond
>> See my website for my current email address
>> http://www.johngsbbq.com
>> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo 
>> Emerson
>> 
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson

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On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:07:23 +1100, James Massey
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


>>If I were doing this project, I'd design it to use off-the-shelf bars.
>>Lots cheaper that way and a lot easier to repair.
>
>Yes, those are along the ideas that I'm having, but (as always) "the devil 
>is in the details":-
>
>With what material should the comm segments be insulated from one another 
>and the clamping cones?
>How much copper needs to be 'inside' the cones and at what angle to keep 
>them there?

Mica's the old reliable.  There are also some high strength, high
temperature ceramic epoxy cements now available that might do an equal
job.  Typically either "T" shaped bars or trapezoidal shapes.  A comm
stripped of the bars and mica doesn't look all that much different
than an armature stripped of copper.

>
>I'm sure there are lots of other details I haven't thought of yet, which is 
>why construction details would be good. I'm not going to take either of the 
>two motors that I have with steel comms apart just to get the details.

I'd certainly not be ashamed to copy an existing design.  You might
check with local motor service shops.  Especially if they have a large
boneyard, they might have some armatures laying around that you could
acquire for scrap value.

>
>It may be possible to just take an oversized bakelite comm, machine the 
>ends for cones, machine some cones and conical insulators and put it all 
>together. Jim Husted, any input on that idea?
>
>Starting from scratch, copper bar machined to the profile of the commutator 
>bars, then machined into the tapered segments, or machine rings of the 
>right profile and section them out with a slitting saw (probably need to do 
>several extra bars or shrink the diameter to the finished size to close up 
>the gaps).

I personally would not even think of making custom bars when
off-the-shelf ones are available.  There are at least a couple of
trade journals that list dozens of suppliers of components for the
rebuild trade.  I'm sitting here brain-farting and can't drag any
names out of my noodle but maybe I can later.  I can also check with
my friend who owns the shop where I moonlight.  Jim can probably
comment on resources on the left end of the country :-)

I don't think there is enough demand out there to make a business out
of this.  I'd much rather see a reference design be worked out that
could be input to eMachineShops.com or a local CNC jobshop for those
who are interested.  Then either Jim or a local motor shop could build
the armature as desired.

Another valuable resource is EASA (Electrical Apparatus Service
Association), the trade group for motor service.  As a member, if you
want to rewind a motor to another voltage, RPM or whatnot, they have
engineers available who will do the math and return to you the new
specs.  We use 'em often to work out new winding configurations for
motors we're not familiar with.  They also publish an excellent motor
service oriented manual for about $100.  If you have a particular
motor you want to start with, either Jim or I could give EASA a ring
and see what they could come up with.

John

---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Hello to All,
It's been a l-o-n-g weekend! This is just a quickie to let everyone know, that much to our complete surprise, all three of our racing EVs took home trophies from this weekend's Portland Rod & Custom Show.
Father Time's electric Legend Car took first in its category over some pretty heady gas car competition, and in a field of too many racing motorcycles to list, his compact 'Frankendragon' electric motorcycle took an impressive 3rd place.
White Zombie beat all contenders in the 'Unlimited Race' category and won the first place trophy. 

More to follow after some much needed sleep.

See Ya......John Wayland

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