EV Digest 5196
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Pres Bush talks up Plug-in Hybrids
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: I think I am going to need a lot of lead ...
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Useful Motor tech? Or Yet Another Fraud?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Trains and Power setups
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) OT: Overunity is not possible (Was: Re: Useful Motor tech? Or Yet Another
Fraud?)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Pres Bush talks up Plug-in Hybrids
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Wayland's Hawker AeroBattery Info
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Really big heaters...
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: White Zombie to Elude the Police this Saturday!
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: ppt gen
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) need AGMs? (was: Has anyone tried switching thru series strings of small
AGMs to maximize range?)
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Small Bad Dumb Charger (was: RE: Big ...)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: I think I am going to need a lot of lead ...
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: OT: major breakthrough in photovoltaics claimed
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Need 48v Charger Advise
by "Ken Nelson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: OT: major breakthrough in photovoltaics claimed
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: OT: major breakthrough in photovoltaics claimed
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by "Alan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Has anyone tried switching thru series strings of small AGMs to
maximize range?
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Yea, but there will be 31 less NREL employees there to hear Bush talk
since they were laid off last week.
To put things in perspective his initiatives are still stingy and
hydrogen is still his number one priority with $289 million for R&D.
Compare that to only $192 million for wind and solar energy combined
which is less than the cost of a F/A-22 fighter plane.
So far we get whatever is left over with only $30 million for
improvements for Plug-In Hybrid battery technology while he's planning
on spending $150 for cellulosic ethanol.
Bush still isn't pushing the US automakers on making significant
improvement to increase fuel economy. Those improvement alone would
save gas considerably.
On a positive note he is getting Plug-in hybrids more publicity.
But where is Chaney besides hunting with his oily friends from
Haliburton? Why isn't he out backing Bush on these initiatives? Hmmmm.
So I would remain cautiously optimistic. If you all do go out and
support the president in his latest initiatives at NREL ask him to up
the ante on Plug-in hybrids, put more pressure on US automakers and
hire back those 31 NREL employees who were recently canned.
Chip Gribben
From: Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:51:22 PM US/Eastern
To: RAV4-EV list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Pres Bush talks up Plug-in Hybrids
Tuesday President Bush is going to NREL in Golden, Colorado.
He has been touting Plug-in Hybrid vehicles in his recent speeches,
including today at Johnson Controls in Wisconsin. Let's push it.
Could some folks in hybrids and EVs appear (I know there's a RAV4 EV or
2 in Colorado) with signs supporting Plug-ins? It might help get the
message on the news. (Otherwise, the report could be all Hydrogen and
Nuclear, where the bulk of the federal spending goes.)
We need to foment a grassroots movement supporting Bush's call for
plug-in hybrids.
Red States Plug In!
Ideas? Questions?
Marc Geller
Plug In America
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How does this effect the 'on-board' batteries? I keep hearing not to
mix new and old batteries.
-Mike
On 2/20/06, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 20 Feb 2006 at 16:43, Seth Rothenberg wrote:
>
> > Or, add a battery trailer...
> > Unfortunately, the only things in the EValbum that mention trailers
> > are electric bikes...
>
> A battery trailer is a viable way to extend range. Hitch it up when you
> need more, leave it at home when you don't. It's also available to help out
> if you, uh, overestimate your range. The only real disadvantage is that it
> makes the car a bit more awkward to handle, but I think there are double-
> link hitches that can help with that. Someone else here may know more about
> such hitches.
>
> A battery trailer worked nicely for Team New England in two (maybe more)
> Tour de Sol events. IIRC, they placed first at least one year (2001?
> 2002?).
>
> Regrettably Olaf Bleck's website with pictures of it has vanished. Here's a
> rather small black and white pic from NESEA (look quickly before they take
> it down; many of their other old pics are now dead links) :
>
> http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tds00carsbattery-electric.htm
>
> It's about halfway down the page.
>
> Description here :
>
> http://www.autoauditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2002/#Report46
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We decided several years ago (maybe as much as 10 years ago) that the EV
list shouldn't discuss over-unity and perpetual motion machines. It's off
topic and a distraction, since it's not useful to real-world EV builders and
it tends to generate more heat than light.
This decision is now pretty much list policy (to whatever extent such a
thing exists on this list ;-).
Please comply with the list's decision. If you want to continue discussion
of this "over-unity" device please do so in private email. With the
understanding that we're all interested in true innovation, let's still try
to focus on motors that we can actually buy and use in EVs.
Thanks.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: EV digest 5191
> Hi Bob,
>
> That's a FANTASTIC idea. Run a couple hundred feet of third rail wherever
> they park them to top off the batteries (and to let them actually shut
down
> the locos; Metrolink appears to idle ALL of their equipment EVERY night
> while sitting.) Throw in some regen, and Metrolink could see some
> substantial savings.
> Hi Tim;
I'll bet Metro Link uses the fairly standard Head End Power setup that
Amtrak seems to have set the standard: 480 volts 60 hz, made fresh daily
onboard the locomotive, ether or by two modes, a separate Diseasel , like a
Cummens alternater setup, it just screams along at a fixed 60hz speed. You
can buy one of these for your home, albiet 300KW would be a bit of
overkill<g>!These handle up to 15 cars' "hotel "power, a/c heat an' lites,
AND those handy seat outlets trains are featuring, nowadaze. Other setup the
prime mover, diesel engine aboard the loco runs FLAT out, to run a 300-400KW
alternater at sycronous 60 HZ speeds. This was an anoying feature of the GM
F -40's, the damn lokie was running FULL Speed standing still!Of course this
raises hell with your gas miliage! > GM thought of this, too, they had a
"Standby " mode where a fast idle with the MAIN alternater, used for
traction power had a tap off BEFORE the rectiflfyer, diode, banks,So it
would be a hellova lot quieter. when parked. Of course you couldn't move the
loco in this mode.The New GE'S that Amtrak is using now ,do the same
thing.Amtrak got rid of the F-40 fleet, but they soldier on with various
commuter outfits. Noisy, hard riding, but sheer willing power they found
fans everywhere. I put zillions of miles in blizzards to Fla like 100 degree
weather, "they do run run run they do run run" line from a rock song of
years ago!They cared little about outside conditions. The Lexus of Locos!
The OTHER great feature with the 480 60 HZ was that the train can plug
into shore power! When train is laying over, for the night, can be plugged
in and the Diseasel can be shut down, if the weather is warm.In fact
Amtrak's operating rules specify when and how to do it.So if you check out
major stations;PDX, LA Chicago, where trains hang around, take a walk up to
the far end of the platform, where the lokies usually sit. You will see
massive 4 ought cables laying around wioth the big round :"Plugs" The Female
ones are on the Plugitin cord. Pick it up, look down it's throat.It's OK
they are dead! To make them work they have to be plugged into a completed
circuit BEFORE power can be applied! You will see 6 pins, 3 for the heavy
480 and 3 small ones for the "Trainline Complete" circuit. Trainline
complete pilot pins are shorter than the power ones, so they HAVE to be in
all the way before power can be applied. I worked with these Anderson Power
Peoducts stuff and why I'm dragging them into the comversation, I feel that
they would be IDEAL for dump charging EV's. Able to stand 400-500 amps,
relatively easy to handle, if yur my size<g>!All kidding aside, smaller guyz
and galz handle these things EVeryday. as Amtrak is an equal opportunity
employer! A simple male one could be mounted under the hood to keep it
clean, about the size of a round Coke can, they wouldn't be hard to fit
SOMEWHERE in a car. Being as there are THOUSANDS of RR cars fitted with
these things 8 to a car, they are a production item. I don't know HOW
much,$$ new. I have obtained a few from the Junk yard guy, where RR cars go
to die. Lots of nice cable lays about too, as the junkies are more
interested in TONS of stainless steel, than copper entrails.
Just a few hy power thoughts, in training.
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Warning: you will get a loud hue and cry from many people on the list
if you make any suggestion of believing that overunity is possible.
That topic is definitely off-topic for this list, so I'll keep this
short.
Peter gave a good physics-based explanation - here's my common-sense
based explanation.
You can't make an overunity motor with only magnets in it any more than
you can make an overunity motor with only springs in it. Magnets are
just springs. A spring motor will run for a while if you wind it up,
but it eventually runs down. Overunity means that the motor runs
forever if you wind it up once (or even if you never wind it up at
all). Common sense should show that this ain't gonna happen.
Electric motors work because the electricity is always "winding up" the
electromagnets.
On Feb 21, 2006, at 1:29 AM, Joel Hacker wrote:
I have read seveal articles like this, and one thing that
they all have in common is the use of permanent magnets
with poles arranged so that they are similar and oppose
one another.
This creates some enormous magnetic fields that can be
interrupted by electric currents, or other dynamic lines
of flux to bend and warp the original lines of flux into
useful work...normally, the field lines are so strong
since they are opposing fields that they have great amounts
of energy and do great amounts of work...this is how I believe
that they get their overunity to work.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chip, it was 32 employees laid off there but they were rehired two days
before Bush's visit. Hoowed a thunk it :-)
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: Pres Bush talks up Plug-in Hybrids
Yea, but there will be 31 less NREL employees there to hear Bush talk
since they were laid off last week.
To put things in perspective his initiatives are still stingy and hydrogen
is still his number one priority with $289 million for R&D. Compare that
to only $192 million for wind and solar energy combined which is less than
the cost of a F/A-22 fighter plane.
So far we get whatever is left over with only $30 million for improvements
for Plug-In Hybrid battery technology while he's planning on spending $150
for cellulosic ethanol.
Bush still isn't pushing the US automakers on making significant
improvement to increase fuel economy. Those improvement alone would save
gas considerably.
On a positive note he is getting Plug-in hybrids more publicity.
But where is Chaney besides hunting with his oily friends from Haliburton?
Why isn't he out backing Bush on these initiatives? Hmmmm.
So I would remain cautiously optimistic. If you all do go out and support
the president in his latest initiatives at NREL ask him to up the ante on
Plug-in hybrids, put more pressure on US automakers and hire back those 31
NREL employees who were recently canned.
Chip Gribben
From: Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:51:22 PM US/Eastern
To: RAV4-EV list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Pres Bush talks up Plug-in Hybrids
Tuesday President Bush is going to NREL in Golden, Colorado.
He has been touting Plug-in Hybrid vehicles in his recent speeches,
including today at Johnson Controls in Wisconsin. Let's push it.
Could some folks in hybrids and EVs appear (I know there's a RAV4 EV or 2
in Colorado) with signs supporting Plug-ins? It might help get the message
on the news. (Otherwise, the report could be all Hydrogen and Nuclear,
where the bulk of the federal spending goes.)
We need to foment a grassroots movement supporting Bush's call for plug-in
hybrids.
Red States Plug In!
Ideas? Questions?
Marc Geller
Plug In America
--
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--- Begin Message ---
John wrote:
>>>
I can't say enough good words about these guys at Aerobatteries, and it's
not just because they worked together with Hawker to get sponsorship of
White Zombie. Dick Brown, the main man at Aerobatteries, was ready to write
his own check to get me the batteries for the car. He collaborated with
Hawker though, and got the factory behind our project.
Dick is completely amped-up over EVs and may even show up at the Midwest EV
drag races in May at the Route 66 Raceway. You simply could not find a nicer
man to do business with. Dick can also set you up with other versions of
Hawker batteries. He is working on a special pricing list for EVers who buy
in EV quantities, too.
If not for any other reason, if you are considering buying a set of Hawkers
for your EV project, please give the guys who are supporting EV racing your
business as a way of thanking them for their support. EV racing helps the
entire EV community by pushing products to their limits, spawning new EV
products (the Zilla and the PFC chargers are a direct result of EV racing),
and making the general public aware of EVs, in a way that can't be ignored.
While GM crushes EVs and spins them in a negative light, the EV racers are
out there to make sure EVs don't get forgotten or misunderstood.
See Ya.......John Wayland
>>>
I agree completely with John that we should all support those who support us.
Along those lines I hope Dick is succesful in setting up EV Special pricing.
For Example, those of you who are contemplating Optima Yellow's or Exide 34
Orb's, check out the spec's on the Odyysey PC1200. I'm not sure of the PC1200
price, but I'm confident that it's higher than the Orb.
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/ody_b.asp?routine=ody_spec&brandID=5
Want range AND power check out the PC1700. I'll bet they ain't cheap.
Disclaimer: I have no personal or financial stake in Hawker, and they do not
sponsor me .... yet.
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
So the new S10 truck doesn't have a heater anymore. Not a big loss;
the heat unit is a small 2kw water heater that is kinda small
actually. I want instant heat.
Which brings up a question: Bosch and some other companies make flash
water heaters for houses. In the category of 120amps at 240 volts of
heating power. Has anyone thought about connecting one of those to a
300 volt pack for really quick water heating? Even backing it down to
40amps (one set of heaters) would put 12,000 watts of warmth in the
water pipes.
The (electric) flash heaters are nothing more than a couple of short
1.5-2" pipe segments connected in series with a 5 or 7kw water heater
element in each. The low power ones usually have two chambers, bigger
ones will have four. They are fairly reasonably priced, ($400-700) but
do require a hefty amount of power. The expense is mostly in the
control electronics that PWM the heat elements to maintain an even
output temp as demand and inlet temps change.
In an EV heater you probably could forgo the PWM stuff and just stick a
few water heater elements into some lengths of pipe, and plumb that to
the heater core. Several EVers have built their own heaters this way.
Add a selector or a temp snap switch to run all the elements full bore
to get the system warmed up (maybe while still plugged into the wall)
and then cut back to a smaller amount of heat once it gets going. The
system will be less efficient than a ceramic heater, but if well
insulated it should only be slighty so. If you have the ability to
preheat the water from the grid you can use it for heat storage.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How come no one else has a life this insane? What do you eat for breakfast?
I want some! Actually I have always said that reality is far stranger than
fiction.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 6:49 AM
Subject: White Zombie to Elude the Police this Saturday!
Hello to All,
On the heels of our 4 day whirlwind Rod & Custom show, Tim and I are at
it again this coming Saturday, when we drive White Zombie down to PIR and
be as bad as we can be! With a special invite from the police, White
Zombie will be allowed to dice it out with the cops at their driver's
training program (closed to the public all day). This is the driving
school where cops learn to chase the bad guys and deal with outlaws
attempting to elude...sounds perfect! White Zombie will roast its tires
and drag race police cars, as the officers turn on their lights and sirens
in hot pursuit.... all the while at least one video camera will be
rolling!
It should be one heck of a photo shoot!
See Ya.......John Wayland
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--- Begin Message ---
jerry halstead wrote:
> Someone provided a link to a non-perpetual energy motor, called
> thingap. Anyone hear of them before?
> http://www.thingap.com/technology.htm
Thingap motors are real. This type of motor has been around for decades,
made by a variety of vendors. The Swiss company Portescap is probably
the most common example (their Escap motors).
But Thingap's web page is mostly hype; careful use of the facts, but
with excessive "spin" applied to them. Notice that when they finally do
get around to mentioning actual efficiency, it is around 90% -- the same
as you get with any high quality motor. The other examples they used are
all the "cheap junk" motors you find in low cost consumer products.
Most motors have about a 50/50 weight distribution between stator and
rotor. Thingap-type motors shift this balance to something like 90/10
between stator and rotor. With only 10% of the weight in the rotor, you
get a servo motor with very low rotational inertia. This is good for
fast speed changes in control systems and instrumentation. But the rotor
is now very weak mechanically, and poor at dissipating heat. This makes
it bad for traction applications.
Their brushless inside-out version holds the rotor stationary, and lets
the stator (with all the mass) rotate. This gives you a motor with a
huge rotating mass -- a built-in flywheel. This makes torque pulsations
very low, but there aren't many applications that want high rotating
mass.
The axial flux pancake or Lynch type motor is a variant of the thingap
idea. They can also have the same high efficiency, and same 90/10 weight
ratio. But instead of a thin cylindrical rotor, you have a thin disk
rotor. A disk can be stronger than a cylinder, but has more rotational
inertia. In its extreme form, you have the printed circuit motor, where
the rotor is just a large round printed circuit board with the windings
and no iron at all. They find some use in disk drives and wheel motors.
The bottom line is that a well-made motor is already 90%+efficient. All
these shaping variations don't really change that.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If you are concerned with maximising range, do you really need to use AGMs?
If one is willing to compare and buy batteries based on lifetime energy
throughput ($/total kWh of service), then other chemistries such as LiIon,
NiCd, and NiMH can often offer surprising advantages over traditional lead acid
despite the much higher initial cost. For hobbiest EVers, battery cost usually
largely means the initial battery
cost, not cost per mile or kWh of service.
Well I'm open to suggestions. I'm not enthusiastic about using flooded batts
though, or the Cadmium in Ni-cads.
Mark
Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mark Freidberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> How to maximize range with AGMs in my EV Geo?
If you are concerned with maximising range, do you really need to use
AGMs? Typically AGMs are used when one wants a better power to weight
ratio, since they allow one to assemble a reltively light pack that can
still dish out lots of current.
> So if the EV Geo cruises at 75 amps and peaks at multiples
> of this on hills and acceleration, then maybe use BCI=U1
> (~33ah) or smaller batts in 3 strings of 144 volts or less.
> Basically try to size them so they are delivering peak power
> as much of the time as possibile.
>
> So there's 3 strings of these but you are only running on 1
> string at a time. When the string is exhausted (50%-60%
> d.o.d), simply turn the dashboard rotary swtich to the next
> string and continue driving.
You aren't the first to think of this, but it still deosn't work this
way. ;^>
If you have 3 strings, but only run on one, then you are forcing that
one string to haul the dead weight of the others around. You are also
using smalller batteries and therefore discharging them at a higher
current relative to their capacity, which means you are making less
efficient use of the energy they contain. Finally, having multiple
strings of smaller batteries means more weight in additional cables,
connectors, etc. and less in active material for a given pack weight.
For maximum range, regardless of battery type, you want to have the
greatest possible weight of your chosen type of battery onboard, and you
want to discharge them at the lowest possible rate (relative to their
capacity).
3 144V strings of U1s (e.g. MK Battery 8AU1) is about 864lbs of
batteries. At 75A, a U1 lasts 10 minutes, so you would get 30 min total
run time by discharging each string individually. This is about 37.5Ah
(30min @75A). If you discharged all 3 strings simultaneously, each U1
is discharged at 25A and lasts about 54 minutes; this is 67.5Ah out of
the exact same set of batteries simply by discharging them as a single
144V pack instead of 3 individual strings.
3 U1s used this way are equivalent to a single 72lb 12V AGM that
delivers 67.5Ah @ 75A. A group 31 AGM (MK Battery 8A31) weighs 69lbs
and runs for 53minutes @ 75A (66.25Ah), so a single string of group 31s
would yield the same capacity while being 36lbs lighter (plus the weight
of the extra cables and terminals and holddowns, etc.) and would
eliminate a bunch of extra wiring and terminals and could reduce the
number of regs needed.
Cheers,
Roger.
---------------------------------
What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos
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--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Tromley wrote:
> I like the idea of a charger that only has to worry about bulk charging,
> since that allows a very simple, cheap and *small* solution - something
> that EM (electric motorcycle) builders could use. I can see something
> like this being used as a compact emergency charger on a car or truck
> as well.
True enough. Bulk is the easy part of the charge cycle. You can get up
to 80% SOC pretty much any way you want, as fast as your power source
allows. The last 20% is what requires the "finesse". It can be done by
some smarter (but lower power) system.
> I was thinking in terms of a rectifier, fuse, fan and some means of
> switching it off at your predetermined acceptance voltage. Since it's
> for a known load could it be tweaked for a better power factor? Just
> because it's cheap and small doesn't mean it shouldn't be reliable,
> so you'd need a timer too. And since it's not isolated, a GFI is
> mandatory.
This is basically the "bad boy" charger. They are unreliable mainly
because they are often thrown together with whatever is handy. And,
since they have no controls, nothing limits the charging current or
voltage. So you get burned up cords, dead rectifiers, overcharged
batteries, etc.
The Bonn charger (designed by Don Bonn) is a bad-boy charger with a few
manners. The key addition is a big series inductor, in series with the
input to the bridge rectifier. The inductor filters and limits the peak
current, so it won't burn up cords. The inductor also improves the power
factor, so you get more charging current out of a given AC outlet. It
also has a GFCI for safety, an ammeter so you know what you're doing,
and a timer to automatically shut it off. This may be what you want. I
can publish the circuit if you need it.
> Which brings up a problem. For an EM with all its guts hanging out
> there inviting finger-pokers, how do you get redundant protection?
> Two GFIs?
I would strongly suggest a transformer-isolated charger in this case.
The only alternative is to thoroughly insulate *everything* as if it
were connected directly to the AC powerline (because it *is* when you
use a non-isolated charger)!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't mix old and new in the same pack. This is mostly because they won't
charge the same and you will overcharge the new ones.
It's ok to use old batteries in one pack and new in another if they are
charged separately.
> How does this effect the 'on-board' batteries? I keep hearing not to
> mix new and old batteries.
>
> -Mike
>
> On 2/20/06, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On 20 Feb 2006 at 16:43, Seth Rothenberg wrote:
>>
>> > Or, add a battery trailer...
>> > Unfortunately, the only things in the EValbum that mention trailers
>> > are electric bikes...
>>
>> A battery trailer is a viable way to extend range. Hitch it up when you
>> need more, leave it at home when you don't. It's also available to help
>> out
>> if you, uh, overestimate your range. The only real disadvantage is that
>> it
>> makes the car a bit more awkward to handle, but I think there are
>> double-
>> link hitches that can help with that. Someone else here may know more
>> about
>> such hitches.
>>
>> A battery trailer worked nicely for Team New England in two (maybe more)
>> Tour de Sol events. IIRC, they placed first at least one year (2001?
>> 2002?).
>>
>> Regrettably Olaf Bleck's website with pictures of it has vanished.
>> Here's a
>> rather small black and white pic from NESEA (look quickly before they
>> take
>> it down; many of their other old pics are now dead links) :
>>
>> http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tds00carsbattery-electric.htm
>>
>> It's about halfway down the page.
>>
>> Description here :
>>
>> http://www.autoauditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2002/#Report46
>>
>>
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EV List Assistant Administrator
>>
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>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
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Ken Trough wrote:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/n56bj
> > Looks like a Tilley to me.
>
> You might want to take another look. This is the real deal and many
> people such as myself have been following this tech for years now. There
> is tons of data available. Granted, the university site is not that deep
> or detailed, but the data is available if you dig a little.
I'm sorry; it reads like pure unadulturated hype. No verifiable facts or
data at all. It reads exactly like what someone writes to promote a
stock swindle.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Hello all,
I have built a recumbent Electric bike with a hub drive motor. I have
48v of lead acid for the traction pack; however the motor/wheel kit came
with a 36v charger. The 48v makes for better top speed and increased
range so I want to keep it. Does anyone have any suggestions for a
smallish charger solution that could be assembled from parts or is
available off shelf for a reasonable price? Keep in mind that this bike
is built from junk yard parts and a limited budget (intentionally).
Ken Nelson
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Perhaps I was hasty.
In my defense that article does look like scam bait.
It's tough for me to do a thorough search from here because the net access
is so slow (how I long for the high speed days of 28.8 dial up, and my
fractional T-1 at home)
FWIW further research indicates that what he apparently has developed is a
new way to produce an old technology that makes it cost effective.
I still can't tell if this is true or not, so I'm not holding my breath.
However, it would be really nice if these low cost panels are available
when I return to the States this summer (still not holding my breath
though)
> http://tinyurl.com/n56bj
>> Looks like a Tilley to me.
>
> You might want to take another look. This is the real deal and many
> people such as myself have been following this tech for years now. There
> is tons of data available. Granted, the university site is not that deep
> or detailed, but the data is available if you dig a little.
>
>> The proffesor that supposedly led the research team doesn't seem to
>> have EVER done anything else. I googled him and the only results were
>> other "News" articles about this.
>
> Simply entering a name in Google will not give you a detailed search.
> Most tech journals are not published online and are not Google
> searchable. Professor Alberts has worked all over the world. I came up
> with reams of data that professor Alberts has published in:
> Semiconductor Science and Technology 8(1993)
> Journal of Materials Science: Materials in Electronics 5(1994)
> Japanese Journal of Applied Physics 33(1994)
> Journal of Applied Physics 81(1997)
> Semiconductor Science and Technology 12(1997)
> Japanese Journal of Applied Physics 36(1997)
> Journal of Physics D: Applied Physics 30(1997)
> and at least >15 more< major articles published in global physics
> journals since 1997
>
>> I did a search of the University of Johannesburg's website, no mention
>> of this professor or this "Breakthrough".
>
> He is listed as the Chairman in the Department of Physics, the
> photovoltaic research is prominately listed and Volkswagen Foundation in
> Germany is listed as providing considerable financial support in
> addition to the National Research Foundation.
>
>> The University is, however, hosting a Hockey coaching course and Prof.
>> Nic Beukes has put "Africa on the Map" by being selected as the "SEG
>> Regional Vice President Lecturer for 2006." So perhaps this was
>> overshadowed by more important news.
>
> Maybe you should look at the physics department and not the sports
> pages. 8^)
>
>> All in all, it looks like an investment scam to me.
>
> Far from it. This is a major breakthrough that MANY people are watching
> closely. The South African national minister of Science and Technology
> was on hand to officially open the pilot production facility in 2004,
> and now this tech is finally going into actual production. Hooray!
>
> My favorite quote from the professor:
> "The most expensive part of the panel is the glass". He is talking about
> normal window glass, nothing exotic. His PV film is thinner than a human
> hair and super cheap to produce.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> -Ken Trough
> V is for Voltage
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM/YM - ktrough
> FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>
>
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
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In what? His journal articles or in IOL:SA article? The IOL:SA is a South
African news site, they aren't going to put data in a news article.
I can't post the entire article here for copyright reasons, but here is an
article that was published last month:
Homogeneity of single phase Cu(In,Ga)Se2 produced by selenisation of metal
precursors: An optical investigation
Abstract
*Two-stage processes involving the selenisation of metallic precursor layers
are among the most promising techniques for the formation of
chalcopyrite-based solar cell absorber layers on a commercial scale.* In
this paper, the homogeneity of Cu(In0.75Ga0.25)Se2 prepared by a new
two-stage technique [V. Alberts, Semicond. Sci. Technol., 19 (2004) 65.],
which involves the selenisation of sputtered CuIn0.75Ga0.25 precursor films
in steps designed to control the reaction rates of the binary selenide
phases and to prevent the formation of the more stable CuGaSe2 phase, is
studied. Photoluminescence spectroscopy, optical absorption measurements and
X-ray diffraction measurements confirm that layers grown by a traditional
process, which involves a single selenisation step, contain separate
quaternary phases: gallium-rich phases are found closer to the substrate,
while gallium-poor phases reside near the front surface. Layers produced by
the novel process do not show this grading. A line appearing at 0.8 eV is
ascribed to NaIII, which results from the out-diffusion of Na from the glass
substrate.
The first bit of the Introduction:
*The chalcopyrite semiconductor CuInSe2 (CISe) is one of the most promising
candidates for the production of low-cost, thin-film solar cells: it can be
produced by scalable, cost-effective processes. It also offers the
possibility of band gap engineering: the substitution of In and Se by Ga and
S, respectively, allows the device designer to optimise the energy of the
direct band gap to the solar spectrum.*
The article itself has an extensive results section with graphs
The Vivian Alberts cited article is:
Deposition of single-phase Cu(In,Ga)Se2 thin films by a novel two-stage
growth technique
V Alberts 2004 Semicond. Sci. Technol. 19 65-69 doi:10.1088
/0268-1242/19/1/011
V Alberts
Department of Physics, Rand Afrikaans University, PO Box 524, Johannesburg,
South Africa
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Abstract. Homogeneous single-phase quaternary CuInxGa1-xSe thin films were
prepared with a reproducible two-step growth technique. The growth process
is based on the controlled selenization of sputtered metallic
CuIn0.75Ga0.25alloys in a H2Se reactor at atmospheric pressure. The
reaction velocities of
the binary selenide phases were carefully controlled to prevent the
formation of stable group I–III–VI ternary alloys during a first
selenization step. The composite alloys were subsequently annealed in an
inert atmosphere, followed by a second selenization step to promote the
homogeneous alloying of gallium with CuInSe2. Glancing incident angle x-ray
diffraction (GIXRD) at incident angles between 0.5° and 10° revealed
virtually no shift in d-spacing with sample depth, which confirmed the
monophasic nature of the quaternary alloys. This observation was confirmed
by x-ray fluorescence (XRF) studies, revealing a high degree of in-depth
compositional uniformity.
Now these articles may not spell out exactly how their product works or
performs but they are clearly related to the process. They are beyond my
three year phsyics and math B.Sc. though. Visit your local university or pay
for the article if you want the data.
-Mike
On 2/21/06, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm sorry; it reads like pure unadulturated hype. No verifiable facts or
> data at all.
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I am planning to develop a car battery that can be fully charged in 5 minutes.
Is there anyone who would like to get involved in this project ?
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Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Sorry but it doesn't work that
way. Lead-Acid batteries (regardless of type, i.e. flooded, AGM, etc.)
experience something called the Peukert's
effect.
Oh right, Peukert's effect. Thanks for reminding me of this and returning me
to reality.
.........But who knows? Maybe under certain conditions, Peukert's effect
wouldn't apply, just like Newton's equations aren't accurate above 0.5c.
Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
At 75A, a U1 lasts 10 minutes, so you would get 30 min total run time by
discharging each string individually.
Except that each string regenerate a little during the 2/3 of the time that
the other two strings are discharging. So when the rotary switch comes back
around for a 2nd pass thru the 3 strings, there would be a bit more runtime
added. Then a little more on the 3rd pass, etc. That's my guess-estimate
anyway......
Best regards,
Mark
Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mark Freidberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> How to maximize range with AGMs in my EV Geo?
If you are concerned with maximising range, do you really need to use
AGMs? Typically AGMs are used when one wants a better power to weight
ratio, since they allow one to assemble a reltively light pack that can
still dish out lots of current.
> So if the EV Geo cruises at 75 amps and peaks at multiples
> of this on hills and acceleration, then maybe use BCI=U1
> (~33ah) or smaller batts in 3 strings of 144 volts or less.
> Basically try to size them so they are delivering peak power
> as much of the time as possibile.
>
> So there's 3 strings of these but you are only running on 1
> string at a time. When the string is exhausted (50%-60%
> d.o.d), simply turn the dashboard rotary swtich to the next
> string and continue driving.
You aren't the first to think of this, but it still deosn't work this
way. ;^>
If you have 3 strings, but only run on one, then you are forcing that
one string to haul the dead weight of the others around. You are also
using smalller batteries and therefore discharging them at a higher
current relative to their capacity, which means you are making less
efficient use of the energy they contain. Finally, having multiple
strings of smaller batteries means more weight in additional cables,
connectors, etc. and less in active material for a given pack weight.
For maximum range, regardless of battery type, you want to have the
greatest possible weight of your chosen type of battery onboard, and you
want to discharge them at the lowest possible rate (relative to their
capacity).
3 144V strings of U1s (e.g. MK Battery 8AU1) is about 864lbs of
batteries. At 75A, a U1 lasts 10 minutes, so you would get 30 min total
run time by discharging each string individually. This is about 37.5Ah
(30min @75A). If you discharged all 3 strings simultaneously, each U1
is discharged at 25A and lasts about 54 minutes; this is 67.5Ah out of
the exact same set of batteries simply by discharging them as a single
144V pack instead of 3 individual strings.
3 U1s used this way are equivalent to a single 72lb 12V AGM that
delivers 67.5Ah @ 75A. A group 31 AGM (MK Battery 8A31) weighs 69lbs
and runs for 53minutes @ 75A (66.25Ah), so a single string of group 31s
would yield the same capacity while being 36lbs lighter (plus the weight
of the extra cables and terminals and holddowns, etc.) and would
eliminate a bunch of extra wiring and terminals and could reduce the
number of regs needed.
Cheers,
Roger.
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