EV Digest 5206
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Toyota and GM Reported to End Joint Fuel-Cell Vehicle Research
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Lights out for Think Nordic?
by Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: charger idea
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
by Randall Prentice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: MK3 progress.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
by Brian Cole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Bursa NLG 412B
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: It's the energy density problem (was: Battery charging in only 5
minutes)
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Lights out for Think Nordic?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Brusa NLG 412B
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Award winning Electric Mayflower a pleasure to work on.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV1 question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV1 question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Chargers - noise level (was: Brusa NLG 412B)
by "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Lights out for Think Nordic?
by "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: It's the energy density problem (was: Battery charging in only 5
minutes)
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Forwarded by Dean Taylor of Southern California Edison:
Toyota and GM Reported to End Joint Fuel-Cell Vehicle
Research
22 February 2006
The Asahi Shimbun reports that Toyota Motor and General Motors plan to
end their joint research on fuel-cell vehicle development at the end of
March because of a lack of progress.
The two companies are expected to agree to extend their alliance on
advanced technologies in other areas such as safety and information
until March 2008, according to the report, which suggests that the
agreement will emerge in early march at the earliest.
The two automakers agreed in 1999 to cooperate on fuel-cell research,
in part to take the lead in fuel-cell vehicle technology and exchange
information on technical requirements and build-up of infrastructure.
Toyota officials said that close ties between the two companies will
remain unchanged because they will continue to exchange information on
the remaining issues such as safety and intelligent transportation
systems.
The officials also said the two companies will expand
environment-related research if they find suitable areas, according to
the paper.
Toyota and GM apparently concluded that it is not necessary to include
fuel-cell vehicle development in the extended accord also because
commercial production of fuel-cell vehicles is not expected for about
10 more years.
Chip Gribben
Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC
http://www.evadc.org
NEDRA
http://www.nedra.com
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--- Begin Message ---
According to this story Think Nordic is just about gone...
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1232949.ece
-Dave
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Been out of touch for a bit with the move to Chehalis, and I'm finally
getting caught up with the list....
Since I stare at a bizzillion of these buggers every day, thought I'd
throw in my spurious rantings:
Lee Hart wrote:
mike golub wrote:
I was wondering if I was trying to charge a 120 Volt
DC pack, and a got a 10 computer power supplies giving
12 volts dc each, could I connect them to charge my
batteries?
This idea has been discussed many times. If you have the patience, it is
worth looking it up in the EV list archives.
It can work, but it's not as easy as it seems. Here are a few of the
challenges to overcome with these supplies.
- the 12v output is too low to charge a 12v battery (you need 15v)
- the 12v output is poorly regulated
Depends. Some have 12v lines that are extremely well regulated to the
hundredths of a volt, but I don't think you have those. If you got 'em
free, then you likely got what you paid for.
- the ratings are often marketing exaggerations
See above for the next 4 items ;)
- they have no charging algorithm, which is hard on batteries
- the outputs are not isolated (share a common ground)
- they often shut down if overloaded, rather than current limit
- most are cheap, poor quality, junk that don't last long in heavy use
- they are not power factor corrected; more than a few at once will
trip the breaker on a 120vac 15amp outlet.
Yikes! Better shut down those racks at the datacenter (which have a
15amp service for each half rack - about 14 computers) before they blow
something - JK. Just trying to remind people that there ARE many
extremely high quality ATX power supplies out there. With exact voltage
regulation, current limiting and PFC. It's too easy to get into the trap
of thinking that if it goes into a PC, it's cheezy electronics (which of
course isn't always true). They do run a majority of this funny thing we
call the Internet, as well as virtually all banking and commerce in this
and other countries... But if a power supply is cheap, then it IS
cheaply made.
There are workaround for all of these, but you have to ask yourself if
it is worth the trouble.
Maybe he's bored? LOL
BTW, anyone know anything about "Carter & Sons Volkswagen" - they make
custom sand rails, I believe. I'm thinking my new neighbors might be
able to help with some fabrication work...
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--- Begin Message ---
John,
I was wondering about the fault current interrupt capability,
as most EV batteries won't be able to sustain more than 3,000
or maybe max 5,000 Amp, even on a dead short.
This is simply because their internal resistance is between
1 and 0.5 mOhm per cell, my 12V 110Ah batteries are 4 mOhm
so they will reach probably 3,000A but not 4,000A on a short
across the terminals, with all batteries and cabling in series
I am over 200mOhm for the 312V pack, so it will likely
max out at 1500A when shorted somewhere after the contactors.
It seems that 10kA interrupt capability is more than sufficient
for a typical EV application, or am I missing something?
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:38 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
Breaker size has little to do with AC or DC and everything to do with
interrupting capability. Breakers with similar interrupting ratings
are of similar size.
The reason the "usual" DC breaker is so much larger than the "usual"
AC breaker is because the DC system usually has batteries and/or
capacitors involved in the supply. AC circuits have engineered
features that limit fault current. That whimpy little breaker in your
home fuse box is only rated to interrupt 10k amps. That is nothing
compared to what a large standby battery can supply.
John
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 20:35:10 +1100, James Massey
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>At 12:22 PM 22/02/06 -0800, Nick Austin wrote:
>>On Wed, Feb 22, 2006 at 01:58:49PM -0500, Christopher Zach wrote:
>> > The problem is this: AC breakers and fuses are designed to break AC
>> > loads. This is apparently not too hard as the voltage on an AC line
>> > swings to zero a certain number of times per second. Thus the arcs tend
>> > to self-extinguish.
>>
>>Is this why high power DC breakers are so huge and expensive?
>
>Hi Nick - and all
>
>Sure is, once you get into serious power switching, DC breakers (and
>contactors) seem to be around 5x to 10x their AC-only comparable rated
>cousins, and 4x to 5x bigger, with big arc chutes and all the rest of the
>business.
>
>Regards
>
>James
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm going to be using Lee Harts new version of his battery balancers...
I'll let you all know how well they work!
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
> Ryan Bohm wrote:
>
>>Who else out there is planning on outfitting their rig with MK3s?
>
>
> $75 x 29 = $2,175... I was just getting used to the MK2 prices too...
>
>
>
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As a side note, a device which converts replaceable chemical energy
directly to electrical energy, whether solid, liquid, or gas is a fuel
cell, not a battery. Hydrogen fuel cell is only one type, though it's
the only type. If you're tied to rechanging the device with
electricity, it's a battery, if you can feed in additional energy from a
tank indefinitely, it's a fuel cell.
If such a thing were possible, you probably wouldn't just flush the
battery (fuel cell) at a charging station. You'd carry around a 10 gal
tank of fresh liquid and a 10 gal tank of spent waste liquid (assuming
it is unsafe to simply exhaust like hydrogen->H20). The cell would be
designed with an inlet and outlet and constantly replenish the liquid as
needed until the fresh liquid in the tank gets used up. You'd refill
the tank and dump the old stuff for recycling/recharging.
But, as we've said, the batteries I'm familiar with get their energy
from the solid plates rather than the electrolyte. It is probably
possible to get chemical energy from for example lead pellets or
lead-bearing paste, something that could be renewed on the fly, and thus
make a chemical fuel cell with a "fillup" tank and a tank of waste which
can be electrically recharged back into fresh fuel again. I know of no
promising possibilities standing out in this field though.
Danny
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
<<<Hmmm?? Doesn't the electrolyte in the Nicad battery do the chemical
thing, rather than the plates? I noticed in looking at blown up Nicads that
the plates were squeeky clean, they don't seem to change themselves as a
battery charges-discharges. Maybe I missed something or you COULD just drain
and dump fresh electrlyte in and go on yur way?You Chemistry geeks?>>>
No, Bob, I think it's the opposite - the electrolyte in NiCd *isn't* involved in
the reaction, which is why you can't measure the charge by testing it but can
run one when it's frozen (although I've never seen data for that).
The Vanadium Redox battery is the only one I've read about whose electrolyte
*is* the energy reactant, but it's still better suited to stationary systems
due to energy density (haven't seen mention of power density...a Redox
dragster?).
--- End Message ---
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Danny suggested:
> A slightly more practical idea concept would be a removable pack you
> could swap with a charged one, but realistically these packages have
> been far too large and heavy to just swap out. It could sort
> of be done
> if the vehicle were designed around an easily removable pack, but it
> would be unlikely the shape would be the interchangeable for
> different make/models.
The 1917-1924 Milburn Light Electrics were designed with sliding battery
banks in both the front and rear. Disconnect 2 connections, slide the
battery bank out onto a battery cart, push the cart to the side, then slide
a freshly charged battery bank into the car, reconnect...repeat for the
other end of the car.
Not sure how much of this infrastructure was in use, if at all, but the
operating manual shows these.
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The REDOX battery is run using a tank of eletrolyte that changes as the
battery is discharged and can either be recharged in situ, or swapped and
recharged a a central station. The state of charge is determend by the
electrolyte.
A Cell is made up of two 1/2 Cells and a collection of cells is called a
battery, but yes I know what you mean.
Most practicle Fuel Cells are of course Fuel Batteries..... ;-)
REDOX (Normally Vanadium but there seem to be other contenders starting now)
doesn't consume the electrolyte which is why it doesn't count as a fuel
cell.
The idea of replacing the plates is what was proposed for the Zinc/Air Cell.
Regards
Randall Prentice
(I'm not totally sure this isn't OT, but batteries have always been the
problem for EV's).
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Danny Miller
> Sent: Friday, 24 February 2006 7:55 p.m.
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
>
>
> As a side note, a device which converts replaceable chemical energy
> directly to electrical energy, whether solid, liquid, or gas
> is a fuel
> cell, not a battery. Hydrogen fuel cell is only one type,
> though it's
> the only type. If you're tied to rechanging the device with
> electricity, it's a battery, if you can feed in additional
> energy from a
> tank indefinitely, it's a fuel cell.
>
> If such a thing were possible, you probably wouldn't just flush the
> battery (fuel cell) at a charging station. You'd carry
> around a 10 gal
> tank of fresh liquid and a 10 gal tank of spent waste liquid
> (assuming
> it is unsafe to simply exhaust like hydrogen->H20). The cell
> would be
> designed with an inlet and outlet and constantly replenish
> the liquid as
> needed until the fresh liquid in the tank gets used up. You'd refill
> the tank and dump the old stuff for recycling/recharging.
>
> But, as we've said, the batteries I'm familiar with get their energy
> from the solid plates rather than the electrolyte. It is probably
> possible to get chemical energy from for example lead pellets or
> lead-bearing paste, something that could be renewed on the
> fly, and thus
> make a chemical fuel cell with a "fillup" tank and a tank of
> waste which
> can be electrically recharged back into fresh fuel again. I
> know of no
> promising possibilities standing out in this field though.
>
> Danny
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> ><<<Hmmm?? Doesn't the electrolyte in the Nicad battery do
> the chemical
> >thing, rather than the plates? I noticed in looking at blown
> up Nicads
> >that the plates were squeeky clean, they don't seem to change
> >themselves as a battery charges-discharges. Maybe I missed
> something or
> >you COULD just drain and dump fresh electrlyte in and go on
> yur way?You
> >Chemistry geeks?>>>
> >
> >No, Bob, I think it's the opposite - the electrolyte in NiCd *isn't*
> >involved in the reaction, which is why you can't measure the
> charge by
> >testing it but can run one when it's frozen (although I've
> never seen
> >data for that).
> >
> >The Vanadium Redox battery is the only one I've read about whose
> >electrolyte
> >*is* the energy reactant, but it's still better suited to
> stationary systems
> >due to energy density (haven't seen mention of power
> density...a Redox
> >dragster?).
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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I must admit they are spendy toys...
I need to keep in mind they are one darn fine tool for BMS designs and data
collection, as wells good old dissaptive equalizers.
Having a 2 bit chunk of Qbasic code do all the DVM work will make my life a
LOT easier.
I am stroking 8 Regs at 9600 Baud.... a few errors and a couple of extra
CRLF sequences are needed, But ... hey they are doing exactly what I want
them to.
WeeK one since the PCB got here... Not bad at all.
I am waiting for the last up load of the ngiht.... Bruce is letting me
enable the Reg dissapation channel.... OOoo! I can make heat with the
regs....Or burden the bench supply a bit...
The screen full of Reg data is too kill for.
it goes like this:
Current volts Current temp Xternal temp Status Minvoltage
Maxvoltage (since last reset command)
new Reg on every line...down.
The status shows Regging, Lowbatt, lowbatt NOW and Reg dissabled. Plus you
still have the three Leds ,Regging LED, Lowbat, and lowbat latch. The Status
LED ..We are using it to
show when we are actually talking to the Reg. Plasma Boy says it shall be
the brightest Violet LED I can find..
Ok whos got good access to a sub 400 Nm T1 3/4 LED supply. Digi krime didn't
have one that I could find.
The point is in a dark garage with a pack of Mk3 being scanned... you will
have the traveling purple blip... and the winking Green led. This should
make for some good visuals.
Oh yea and all the old Regbuss Analog lines to and from any PFC charger are
still active....sweet! Well I guess I better test that feature...It's
supposed to be there...
These Regs do more than just Reg....they allow you see what is happening...
on all the batteries..at once.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
> Ryan Bohm wrote:
>
> >Who else out there is planning on outfitting their rig with MK3s?
>
>
> $75 x 29 = $2,175... I was just getting used to the MK2 prices too...
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Does V2G, or vehicle-to-grid, satisfy needs to both
charge & discharge from the grid? I hope this is where
the plug-in concept is headed.
http://www.greenmtn.edu/news/V2G.asp
http://www.allbusiness.com/periodicals/article/116808-1.html
http://www.udel.edu/V2G/
http://www.geotimes.org/aug05/feature_pluginhybrid.html
http://www.sustainableballard.org/ev2g/pdf/Kempton-V2G-Designing-June05.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid
http://www.sustainableballard.org/
http://www.acpropulsion.com/white_papers.htm
http://hydrogen.its.ucdavis.edu/people/bwilliams/ploneexfile.2005-05-06.7767555063/preview_popup
http://electrictransportsolutions.blogspot.com/2005_07_17_electrictransportsolutions_archive.html
-brian
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
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On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 22:24:23 -0800, Cor van de Water
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>John,
>
>I was wondering about the fault current interrupt capability,
>as most EV batteries won't be able to sustain more than 3,000
>or maybe max 5,000 Amp, even on a dead short.
>This is simply because their internal resistance is between
>1 and 0.5 mOhm per cell, my 12V 110Ah batteries are 4 mOhm
>so they will reach probably 3,000A but not 4,000A on a short
>across the terminals, with all batteries and cabling in series
>I am over 200mOhm for the 312V pack, so it will likely
>max out at 1500A when shorted somewhere after the contactors.
>It seems that 10kA interrupt capability is more than sufficient
>for a typical EV application, or am I missing something?
I've used household breakers at up to 48 volts with great success and
for quite a long time. I've never had the opportunity to go any
higher. My major concern is the lack of blowout coils in any that I've
ever taken apart to look at. With the open gap being typically less
than an inch, there's a good possibility of a sustained arc.
When I made my earlier comments I wasn't thinking about EV-sized
batteries but about the large stationary batteries typical for large
data centers, power plants and the like. The places where the large
breakers we end up buying surplus were intended to serve.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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I have a chance to aquire one or two of these chargers. Anyone have
experience with these chargers and would they work well with the BB600
batteries..
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Remember though that the volumetric energy that you refer to for gasoline is
heat energy. You will lose ~70% of the heat energy in the engine and another
~10% in frictional heat loses, then you have the driveline inefficiencies
getting it to the wheels. So you get what, maybe 15% conversion efficiency
from gasoline to power at the wheels? If you take this into account the you
should rightly take into account the maybe ~85% efficiency in converting the
electricity from the battery to mechanical power, and a little less
transmission loss if you go some form of more direct drive.
Then you also need to figure that that 1 gallon of gasoline needs a 500 lb
engine to be able to get that ~15% of its energy to the wheels. 400 lb of
batteries and 100 lb of electric motor may get you near the same range as
the gallon of gas and a 500 lb motor. So you figure that you can just keep
adding gasoline to increase the range. At most a small car may carry 20-25
gallons of gasoline. So from this simple analogy you could see that the
energy density of the gasoline "system" could be almost an order of
magnitude less than the 396 times you came up with. I wish I had the time
this would be a fun problem to work through. I'm affraid some of my
generalized assumptions would need to be revised though.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: It's the energy density problem (was: Battery charging in only
5 minutes)
[N.B: I hope I did my math right! I cross checked these numbers quite a
bit, but I may have brain-farted somewhere]
Simply put: Batteries, as they exist today do not store enough energy
for the weight / space they consume.
One gallon (3.79l) of gasoline weighs 6.09 pounds (2.76Kg) (spec grav: .69)
Gasoline has 22,000,000 Joules per pound, or about 35Kwh per gallon.
A gallon of gasoline has a energy density (by weight, or specific
energy) of 12.68 (35Kwh / 2.61Kg).
A gallon of gasoline has a volumetric energy density of 9.23 (35Kwh / 3.79l)
An Orbital 34XCD (for example) has 50Amp-hours and weighs 41 pounds (18.6Kg)
Ignoring various factors (C, Peukerts) and assuming you can pull 50 amps
for 1 hour at 12 volts, That's 0.6 Kwh
This battery has a energy density of 0.032 (.6Kwh / 18.6Kg)
This battery has a volume of 2.502 gallons / 9.47 liters
It's energy density (volume) is 0.063 (.6Kwh / 9.47)
By weight, gasoline has 396 times as much energy as the lead-acid
battery in our example. This ignores the fact that the gas tank gets
lighter as you burn the fuel, whereas batteries do not.
By volume, gasoline has 146 times as much energy.
Gasoline as an energy storage medium is vastly superior to batteries.
Internal combustions vehicles can't really go that far because they're
ridiculously inefficient at converting this energy to apply to the
wheels when compared to an electric system.
If you made a battery that was as good as gasoline at storing energy
(especially weight-wise), people would only have to recharge their
electric car every few _months_, though you'd probably do it every night
because charging (Using 10 gallons of gas as a yard stick) 350Kwh
overnight seems ... impractical:
43.75 Kwh per hour, for 8 hours would be 182 amps at 240V, ignoring losses
Alan wrote:
> Re Lee Hart
>
> So for EV development we need batteries that can be discarged to 20 or 30%
> DOD without significantly reducing their life. Have I got the right end of
> the stick ?
>
> alan
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 5:38 PM
> Subject: Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
>
>
>
>> David Roden wrote:
>>
>>>> Let's look at an AGM lead battery that might be used for a high
>>>> voltage AC drive vehicle; 288 volts at 60 amp hours (1 hour rate)
>>>> (~17 kWh). To charge from 20Rich
>>>>
>> Am I missing the point here.
>>
>> My understanding is that at best an EV can do 50 to 70 miles before
>> recharging. These modern EV's are great for in town, but people are
scared
>> of running out of power on long journeys or having to wait hours for a
>> recharge.
>>
>> Now if your chargers can charge the vehicles to 80 % within 7 minutes,
>> that means they can go an extra 40 to 50 miles untill they stop for
>>
> dinner.
>
>> I believe you have a winner certainly for a small country like England.
We
>> would just need to install your charger in enouth garages/outlets for a
>> quick recharge. Say a few thousand chargers would probably cover half the
>> country.
>>
>> Is this how it works ? or do we still need development on the battery
>> front.?
>>
>> In England I dont see a problem with pulling enough power off the grid.
>> There are 3 phase high voltage supplies in most areas.
>>
>>
>> Alan
>>
> SOC (a reasonable lower limit)...
>
>> Doug Weathers wrote:
>>
>>> Eeek! I thought that 50% SoC was the lower limit you want to shoot
>>> for in AGMs. Going below that is supposed to permanently damage
>>> your AGMs.
>>>
>> It's not a cliff where life suddenly falls off the edge. Rather, the
>> deeper you discharge, the shorter your battery's life. 50% DOD is a good
>> number to aim for, because that's about where you get the most total
>> amphours out of the battery over its entire life (for lead-acid).
>>
>> For example, a battery might have a life of 1000 cycles to 50% DOD, or
>> 300 cycles to 80% DOD. If it's a 100ah battery, then you get
>>
>> - 1000 cycles x 0.5 x 100ah = 50,000 amphours total over its life
>> - 300 cycles x 0.8 x 100ah = 24,000 amphours total over its life
>>
>> So discharging it to 80% every cycle cuts your battery life in half,
>> i.e. makes your battery cost twice as much per mile.
>>
>> Which do you want? Range or life?
>> --
>> Ring the bells that still can ring
>> Forget the perfect offering
>> There is a crack in everything
>> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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On 24 Feb 2006 at 0:29, Dave Stensland wrote:
> According to this story Think Nordic is just about gone...
What a sad end to the story. We could speculate all day on what went
wrong, but what's the point?
Think and the ill-fated City have lots of distinguished company in that EV-
entrepreneur graveyard. Sigh.
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--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Feb 2006 at 0:44, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I have a chance to aquire one or two of these chargers. Anyone have
> experience with these chargers and would they work well with the BB600
> batteries..
They are outstanding chargers from the standpoint of programmability, highly
flexible. They should be run only at 240 volts, with the 120 volt input
capability used only as an emergency measure. They can provide up to
3600 watts, but I recommend limiting them to 3000-3200. This is easy to
adjust in the programming software. You'll need a computer with MSDOS
version 6 or an early version of Windows (95/98) to run the software. I just
boot my laptop from a DOS 6 floppy with the Brusa software on it.
They can benefit from a minor modification - move or change the value of the
bleeder resistor across the mains input. It's too close to a fuse, and the
heat
it generates eventually causes the fuse to fail.
If you are looking at the version with Saft STM firmware, there are some
special issues and concerns. If that's the case email me privately and I'll
explain in more detail.
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--- Begin Message ---
I had a chance to work on this delightful conversion owned by Peter
Panagotacos M.D. . It was done by a professional wrenchead (Bill Eck)who now
sells cell phones. It is a very neatly done conversion that John Wayland
would be proud of. I'll try to add it to the EV photo album. Interesting
little article from 1996 by Clare Bell.
http://www.hairdoc.com/mayflower.html
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
> Is it possible to create a battery pack with an "old"
> electrolyte drain and a "fresh" electrolyte in? IE: pull up at an acid
> station and drain and refill the pack? And the the "old" is then recycled?
You can't do this with Lead-Acid batteries becuae you'd have to change the
lead plates too, it's simpler to just swap out the batteries and for the
most part that is too complicated to be practical.
There is a type of battery -Vanadium REDOX- that does use liquid
electrodes and can be recharged by simply swapping the fluid. This has
been in the developement stage for 10-15 years and doesn't seem to be
going anywhere. Apparently there are still some problems that need to be
resolved. Plus, last I checked, the energy density was pretty low which
means you'd most likely have to stop and refuel every 30 miles or so.
There is also a type of battery -Zinc Air- that is charged by replacing
the electrodes (Zinc) and has to be mechanically recharged. I.e. they
have to reprocess the Zinc. Some far the reprocessing center has been
large, and expensive, and the process isn't very efficient, so it's only
been implemented in a few areas.
Once they get Li-Poly or Li-Ion or Li-whatever down to an affordable
level, battery swapping might become practical. These batteries are light
enough that a 50+ mile pack would only weigh perhaps 200 lbs. This is
light enough that it could be made up of 5 x 40lb standardised modules
which could quickly be swapped out by hand.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I was wondering, what if someone who had an EV1
> decided not to return it? I mean, they
> make it disappear for a while.
> Drop off the plates, stop the insurance,
> give the car to grandma for safekeeping.
>
> Would that be a criminal act?
> Would it be a civil offence?
> (clearly a violation of the lease agreement).
The word you are searching for is "Theft" as in "Grand Theft Auto". The
vehicles do NOT belong to the leasee, they belong to GM.
>
> What I mean is, would GM have any
> recourse against the leaseholder
> beyond civil sanctions?
Sure, it's a Felony, you'd go to Jail.
Kind of a moot point though, since I believe that they've all been
recovered and crushed by this point. Except a few that were refurbished
and leased to government agencies on the east coast.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I was really, really surprised that no one had their EV1 "stolen" only to
> be
> hidden in a barn somewhere. Did they comewith Onstar or something?
>
> -Mike
>
Probably has something to do with that really invasive personality test
they made people take in order to qualify to lease the vehicle. They
probably didn't lease any to people with criminal tendancies.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I am working with my first ev conversion, I´d like to know how noisy
air cooled chargers are generally, and these Brusa chargers
particularly? I´d like my ev to be silent in my home yard as well as on
the road... Anyone feel charger sound is a problem?
Thanks, Osmo
24.2.2006 kello 11:14, David Roden (Akron OH USA) kirjoitti:
On 24 Feb 2006 at 0:44, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I have a chance to aquire one or two of these chargers. Anyone have
experience with these chargers and would they work well with the BB600
batteries..
They are outstanding chargers from the standpoint of programmability,
highly
flexible. They should be run only at 240 volts, with the 120 volt
input
capability used only as an emergency measure. They can provide up to
3600 watts, but I recommend limiting them to 3000-3200. This is easy
to
adjust in the programming software. You'll need a computer with MSDOS
version 6 or an early version of Windows (95/98) to run the software.
I just
boot my laptop from a DOS 6 floppy with the Brusa software on it.
They can benefit from a minor modification - move or change the value
of the
bleeder resistor across the mains input. It's too close to a fuse,
and the heat
it generates eventually causes the fuse to fail.
If you are looking at the version with Saft STM firmware, there are
some
special issues and concerns. If that's the case email me privately
and I'll
explain in more detail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sad story. Here´s one view what happened really. It says Ford and the
new owner Kamal Siddigi were never going to give Think a chance:
http://www.eutopia.no/Think%20dirty.html
Osmo
24.2.2006 kello 07:29, Dave Stensland kirjoitti:
According to this story Think Nordic is just about gone...
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1232949.ece
-Dave
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff and All
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: It's the energy density problem (was: Battery
charging in only 5 minutes)
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 20:29:57 -0800
>it has been said
>
>"We all hope and prey for batteries that can match
>the gas for watt hours per pound"
>
>I don't.
>
>I don't want to strive to be that inefficient
>I don't want to need to charge that much
>I don't want to need to use that much.
While batts don't carry a lot of power for their
weight, it's not really a problem for most transport needs.
As the Sunrise has shown with it's 373 mile range, there is
little reason a well design from scratch EV can't work well
enough for many to have an EV as their only car.
Let's see with some calculations. EV conversion need
not apply for a real, pratical EV though they of course can
be very useful but need 2x the battery power, EV drive to
make up for the extra weight, drag.
>
>
>lets go lithium poly
>if we look at kokam america's 100ah cells lets grab 100
>cells and allow 1/2 lb of BMS/cell 2700G + 227g = 2927*100
>= 645 Lbs Now we rebuild the car from composites for
>improved safety,stiffness, and less weight, better aero and
>assume 200 Wh/mile.
That would be a fairly ineff EV at 200wthrs/mile as
the Sunrise many yrs ago got 100wthrs/mile at freeway speeds
and I expect my new EV to get even better as built the same
way, all composite body/chassis to reduce weight, low
rolling, aero drag, power needs. Even an EV conversion
Karman Ghia got 100wthrs/mile so 200 wthrs/mile is rather
high, ineff for an EV passenger car. My E woody got
100wthrs/mile even tough it was not optimized at all and not
really aero. The Freedom EV is the optimized version of it.
So with your or Cliff's Pro-EV li-ion pack would
give the Freedom EV and the Sunrise MOL a 300 mile range.
Seems Imp's pack was lighter though if I remember correctly.
It also took little room though rereading, it was smaller
than this one.
Even now with ni-cad batts, one can get 150-200 mile
range in either EV's with a 20+yr life and charging in 15
minutes.
And if I had the auto company's resourses, I could
build a 10kw gen in under 75lbs. Even I can build a 6kw gen
which gives me a steady 60+ mph by itself. weighs 100 lbs
with off the shelf, eff, inexpensive industural parts. It
uses a 9hp Robin OHC engine and a shunt wound version of my
drive motors.
>
>
>100*3.7*100=37kwh *.8 = 29600 Wh / 200 = 148 miles to 20%
>SOC This is 4.2 cubic feet of cells, lets double that to
>8 cubic feet for packaging.
> *.5 = 18500 Wh / 200 = 92 miles to 50%
>SOC A honda accord has what is considered a small trunk
>of 14.1 cu.ft.
>
>100 mile range per day easy, 140 mile once in a while. This
>would cover all the driveing I have done for the last 10
>years, I will rent a prius for longer trips or drive onto a
>train and charge on the way.
Yet with 15+ yr old tech, the Sunrise 4/6 pass EV,
one would easily get twice that range. Since one rarely
needs that range, one would usually use a much small battery
pack, reducing weight, cost.
But even lead bats can give 100 mile range in a
designed as EV vehicle which satisfies 95% of US trips.
And isn't that what engineering is about, making the
correct design to get the most from what you have?
So please, while batts don't have the capacity/weight
of gas, by the time you take the engine's, other ICE weight,
EV's can easily match them in cost, utility if designed
right by taking advantage of EV much higher eff.
What this of course means is we need more good
designed as EV's out there. I hope others beside me will
build them.
>
>give me water cooled and silent, single gear reduction,
>12,000 rpm AC and the space saved by eliminating ICE
>,multispeed tranny, big radiator,exhaust system, oh, and
>the fuel tank and I think that more than covers the 8cu.ft.
>OK, maybe not, the controllers are big.
>
>Here is what I want to know
First if you get down to it, only 7% of an ICE's fuel
energy gets to the road and why they are so ineff.
Where with a 40% eff powerplant, EV's get about 20% to
the road and on the new combined cycle power plants where a
gas turbine makes electricity and it's exhaust powers a
steam boiler generator making it 60% eff, giving EV's 30% of
the plant's fuel to the road, greatly increasing eff vs the
ICE's 7%. Diesels get about 10% and hybrids 9-13% eff
depending on how well they were designed and the portion of
EV drive they have.
> The math shows us that about 70% of the energy in a gallon
>of gas is given off as heat in a ICE.
> What if 1/2 that heat could be converted to electricity,
>stored in caps or battery and used to power electric
>assist? you would get more motive power off the exhaust
>heat than the output shaft. Double the Hp for free!
And just where is this 50% eff exhaust engine you
use? Best you can hope for in a road vehicle is 30% of that
waste heat steam engine and only worth it on big rigs that
have the room for it and miles driven to pay for it. This is
a combined cycle I think Semi's have to go to shortly for
economical reasons.
You could replace the present 300-450hp semi motors
with a 100hp with exhaust generator/hybrid drive using 1/2
the fuel per mile.
Peltier generators are very ineff, well under 10% so
not worth it.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
>now, how do we do that? Peltier, high surface area
>Thermocouple? If I laminated 4" x 14" thin plates of iron
>and constanan, and fit this to the exhaust header, can I
>make I higher voltage TC battery?
>
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Actually, this has been done/proposed.
It only works in a battery where the charge is completely in the electrolyte
in a lead acid cell, the plates change, depleting the electrolyte and we
can measure that to tell our charge.
The vandium redux battery and the zinc air "fuel cell battery" are 2
that come to mind. but both have lower density than even lead acid at
the moment.
I guess this gets us back to changing the whole pack. This is not a new
idea. What if the packs were owned by the "electric gas station company"
and the car was set up to drive in,eject a pack out the back and accept
the pack in the front, a long slender tunnel. the difference between the
2 pack charges is billed to you. You can buy regular or priumium lead
acid 40 mile range or lipoly 120 mile range. The only problem I see
here would be to prevent people from picking up a pack, driveing it dead
on the way home, then parking it for a week. Maybe they have to plug in
and communicate to head office via built in wireless or you get a
warning-->citation-->locksmith-->towtruck.
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I can second this!
My com failure was obviously the windings lifting the back end of the
bars out of the plastic, the plastic failed, all the bars had the
notches still attached and were bent up from the back. There is a
possibility that with the "stacked comm" where they just weld the
windings to the bars that the welding got the plastic too hot and made a
hidden weak spot.
For this reason, Jim put a riser comm on my motor. We will see how that
fairs.
This is really a side effect of the "good enough for most applications"
but much cheaper molded comms makeing the better steel comms
unavailable. The comm makers raised the price as the quantities dropped
and cutt of there own sales and now we don't have quality avail in
america anymore. (ok, I am being synical)
Luckily we still have a few companies out there that care about quality.
I am making a short list
cafe electric
manzanita micro
hi torque electric
CII Technologies (CZONKA)
Hiememann
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