EV Digest 5205
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by "Alan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery powered Trains, and hybrids
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EV1 question
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV1 question
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery powered Trains, and hybrids
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV1 question
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Dump charge: off-grid on the cheap - if only we had more public charging
stations;-)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Need 48v Charger Advise
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battey Breakthrough Article - Interesting !
by Brian Cole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Need 48v Charger Advise
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) signoff ev
by "Doug Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) precharge circuit
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: precharge circuit
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Rev limiters, was : New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
by Randall Prentice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes battery life and cost
by Lance Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Steel and Bake-A-Lite comm and bar pics up at Hi-Torque site
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Need 48v Charger Advise
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: It's the energy density problem (was: Battery charging in only
5 minutes)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Battery powered Trains, and hybrids
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
32) Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
33) Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
34) Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Alan wrote:
> So for EV development we need batteries that can be discarged to
> 20 or 30% DOD without significantly reducing their life. Have I got
> the right end of the stick?
You have the right idea, though we may not "need" it.
Running almost anything at its "full capacity" all the time shortens its
life. Drive your car at full throttle; it soon fails. Run your stereo at
full volume; it dies early. Push *yourself* too hard, and *you* die
young!
The relationship between life and how deeply you discharge them is a
characteristic of lead-acid batteries. Other types of batteries (nicad,
nimh, or lithium) don't have it to quite the same degree. Are people
willing to pay more so they can discharge the batteries deeper? No, in
general -- price matters more than life.
So, you figure out how much range you need on a regular basis. Size a
lead-acid pack to give you twice this range, and see what it costs (and
if it fits). If lead isn't good enough, then look at nicad, nimh, or
lithium batteries. You'll find they cost a lot more, but may give you
the range or life you need.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee
Poetic justice.
But we are not talking about full capacity!! only 70 - 80 % discharge
Its good to push yourself a little,,, have a good work out.
I can see how excessive charging overheats the battery.. causes gasing ..
shortens it's life.
But what is the issue with discharging ? is it a temperature thing or
something to do with rhe battery chemistry ?
alan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
> Alan wrote:
> > So for EV development we need batteries that can be discarged to
> > 20 or 30% DOD without significantly reducing their life. Have I got
> > the right end of the stick?
>
> You have the right idea, though we may not "need" it.
>
> Running almost anything at its "full capacity" all the time shortens its
> life. Drive your car at full throttle; it soon fails. Run your stereo at
> full volume; it dies early. Push *yourself* too hard, and *you* die
> young!
>
> The relationship between life and how deeply you discharge them is a
> characteristic of lead-acid batteries. Other types of batteries (nicad,
> nimh, or lithium) don't have it to quite the same degree. Are people
> willing to pay more so they can discharge the batteries deeper? No, in
> general -- price matters more than life.
>
> So, you figure out how much range you need on a regular basis. Size a
> lead-acid pack to give you twice this range, and see what it costs (and
> if it fits). If lead isn't good enough, then look at nicad, nimh, or
> lithium batteries. You'll find they cost a lot more, but may give you
> the range or life you need.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Our story so far (abbreviated):
> M Bianchi wrote:
>> :
>>Have a look at The Coaster ...
>> http://www.coaster.at/?frs=30&lid=2
>> http://www.coaster.at/?lid=2&pid=17&tid=53&mid=22
>> http://www.brusa.biz/applications/e_coaster_details.htm
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> :
> I had privilege to inspect it.
So do tell -- what do you think of the idea? Viable? Going anywhere;-?
For urban transportation on relatively level track it looks interesting.
Do they have any way of switching? With cars that small one could imagine
each passenger selecting their destination and those would be the only places
the car would stop.
--
Mike Bianchi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(When I have nothing to think about, I like to think
about what OTHER people should do with their lives :-)
I was wondering, what if someone who had an EV1
decided not to return it? I mean, they
make it disappear for a while.
Drop off the plates, stop the insurance,
give the car to grandma for safekeeping.
Would that be a criminal act?
Would it be a civil offence?
(clearly a violation of the lease agreement).
What I mean is, would GM have any
recourse against the leaseholder
beyond civil sanctions?
That would be the ultimate slap in the face
to GM, to say, "the car is gone."
GM sues.
The owner settles - for $xx,xxx and transfer of title.
Some 501c3 organization probably would help
with the huge legal bills...
People have willingly gone to jail
for less important issues.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was really, really surprised that no one had their EV1 "stolen" only to be
hidden in a barn somewhere. Did they comewith Onstar or something?
-Mike
On 2/23/06, Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> (When I have nothing to think about, I like to think
> about what OTHER people should do with their lives :-)
>
> I was wondering, what if someone who had an EV1
> decided not to return it? I mean, they
> make it disappear for a while.
> Drop off the plates, stop the insurance,
> give the car to grandma for safekeeping.
>
> Would that be a criminal act?
> Would it be a civil offence?
> (clearly a violation of the lease agreement).
>
> What I mean is, would GM have any
> recourse against the leaseholder
> beyond civil sanctions?
>
> That would be the ultimate slap in the face
> to GM, to say, "the car is gone."
>
> GM sues.
> The owner settles - for $xx,xxx and transfer of title.
>
> Some 501c3 organization probably would help
> with the huge legal bills...
>
> People have willingly gone to jail
> for less important issues.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
M Bianchi wrote:
Our story so far (abbreviated):
M Bianchi wrote:
:
Have a look at The Coaster ...
http://www.coaster.at/?frs=30&lid=2
http://www.coaster.at/?lid=2&pid=17&tid=53&mid=22
http://www.brusa.biz/applications/e_coaster_details.htm
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
:
I had privilege to inspect it.
So do tell -- what do you think of the idea? Viable? Going anywhere;-?
For urban transportation on relatively level track it looks interesting.
I can't find the right photo, but they do have it in urban areas
similar to a city monorail type. Idea is to make stops in frequently
used spots (large shopping centers, train stations, etc) so in essence
it's what we call here a "shuttle".
Do they have any way of switching? With cars that small one could imagine
each passenger selecting their destination and those would be the only places
the car would stop.
Swithcing what, destination places? The track is fixed and there is no
de-railing to alternative route as for a railroads. Of course
riders are free to skip a stop if there is no one to get off.
Main use though is parks and ski resorts where you get fixed route
uphill instead of using chair lifts. No one gets off on the middle :-)
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, if you refuse to return the company's property, it can be theft,
even if the company only wishes to destroy it.
If the property is stolen from you, you can be held financially liable,
though not criminally. In this case the value of the EV1 itself is
actually less than nothing to the company if they only have them slated
for crushing. However, the lease contract may establish another value.
And GM could make the case that you letting this thing get away is a
severe legal liability to the company that you are financially
responsible for. GM's paying thousands per car to recover them so they
clearly do have value, even if only to destroy.
If a car's stolen, then it would be really hard to register so you could
use it again.
Danny
Seth Rothenberg wrote:
(When I have nothing to think about, I like to think
about what OTHER people should do with their lives :-)
I was wondering, what if someone who had an EV1
decided not to return it? I mean, they
make it disappear for a while.
Drop off the plates, stop the insurance,
give the car to grandma for safekeeping.
Would that be a criminal act?
Would it be a civil offence?
(clearly a violation of the lease agreement).
What I mean is, would GM have any
recourse against the leaseholder
beyond civil sanctions?
That would be the ultimate slap in the face
to GM, to say, "the car is gone."
GM sues.
The owner settles - for $xx,xxx and transfer of title.
Some 501c3 organization probably would help
with the huge legal bills...
People have willingly gone to jail
for less important issues.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been thinking of this buisness idea for this town, to be put in
place after a few EV's get sold.
A recharging kiosk
I go the the major malls, the university, and the community college,
movie theater and laundraumats. and rent parking places side by
side,near the power, and not to close to the stores and and set up from
2 to 4 charging paddles, a bank of batteries and shaded by solar panels
parking. Some locations have single stall, some have 8 and can grow.
People would pay a fair price for the PG&E billed to their cell phone or
card swipe. maybe sign up for a "charge" card for access that, to
aquire, you have to sign the release of liability! ok, legal details out
of the way.
This would not really exist to make a lot of money, just to make sure it
pays for itself and the replacement batteries and eventually help finace
more kiosks.
These are grid tie and are programmed to top of the pack from grid off
peak and charge more for quick charge than standard charge. and are all
on internet so you can check the avail before going on trip.
I really think this idea can grow the movement. I would either put the
first one at fashion fair in fresno, it is very central on the premise
that it is near middle of all trips in this town. Or at the most popular
shopping center that is in the north but at the freeway. maybe each end
of the freeway there are 3 malls on that one freeway about 8 miles apart.
problems.
Voltage sense
Safety
Security
Reservations or FCFS?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I once read more than anyone should ever read about blowing fuses,
"Pre-burst wire phenomenon in fusabile links". I was working on a
lightening arrestor for HV lines.
I should look this info up and post it somewhere fro the list someday.
IIRC, the element of a fuse notches off at intervals relative to the
metal crystalyn structure and the harmonic of the pulse reflecting off
the end of the fuse and vaporizes along it's length. The ionized metal
that is so superheated into gas forms the plasma and it is an example of
superconducting for a brief period. the current thru the fuse actually
increases very briefly during the blow. The plasma consumes the rest of
the metal between these nodes like a fuel to keep the superconducting
channel flowing, eventually it is dispersed because it is not contained
and the arc extinquishes.
cool
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What are the chances of tweaking the charger to 48 volts?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Nelson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 9:37 AM
Subject: Need 48v Charger Advise
> Hello all,
>
> I have built a recumbent Electric bike with a hub drive motor. I have
> 48v of lead acid for the traction pack; however the motor/wheel kit came
> with a 36v charger. The 48v makes for better top speed and increased
> range so I want to keep it. Does anyone have any suggestions for a
> smallish charger solution that could be assembled from parts or is
> available off shelf for a reasonable price? Keep in mind that this bike
> is built from junk yard parts and a limited budget (intentionally).
>
> Ken Nelson
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> From: Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR
> <[email protected]>
> Subject: Battery Breakthrough Article - Interesting
> !
>
> Have recently subscribed to a few Google News
> Services, one on
> EVs and one on Hybrids..
>
> This article came through last night...
>
> Thought some might be interested:
>
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
Good news. Any chance some of the huge chunk of money
going to hydrogen fuel cell development is for
hydrocarbon fuel cells? Interesting comments at the
end of the article.
-brian
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Soneil 12V 3A charger is designed for AGMs and is only $43.37-
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=&product_id=2148
...
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
signoff ev
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of the things that makes gasoline so convenient is you just pour a bunch
into a pipe, right? Is it possible to create a battery pack with an "old"
electrolyte drain and a "fresh" electrolyte in? IE: pull up at an acid
station and drain and refill the pack? And the the "old" is then recycled?
I have a feeling I know (one of) the reason(s) this won't work, the
electrodes will foul and/or dissolve. But, like I have said, I'm pretty much
battery illiterate and thought I'd throw the idea out there... see who
shoots it down first :)
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all,
I am finally going to try to install a controller
precharge circuit in my fiero. I actually found a
precharge circuit from some project at work in my junk
pile and i think it might work as is. It is a tiny
Kilovac contactor rated at a couple hundred volts, an
80 ohm resistor (is this ok for a curtis 1221 ?) and
an inline fuse rated at 4 A (and 450 VDC).
My plan is to put this circuit in parallel with the
secondary contactor (which operates from the limit
switch of the potbox), and energize the coil at the
same time as I energize the primary contactor (with
the key).
two questions :
1- is 80 ohms a reasonable value ?
2- is it ok for me to leave this precharge circuit
'on' all the time when the key is on ? it will be in
parallel with the closed secondary contactor whenever
I am on the gas, and when I get off the gas, the
contactor will open and the precharge will 'hold' the
precharge in the controller.
I figure if something happens to the controller to
make it fail ON, i will lift off the gas, the
secondary contactor will open and then the precharge
fuse will blow quickly if asked to pass hundreds of
amps.
does this sound like a reasonable set up ?
how long will the curtis take to precharge with this
set up ?
other thoughts ?
~fortunat
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That has been long fantasized about, but the electrolyte does not store
the energy; the plates do. The electrolyte does change composition as
it's discharged, but the energy difference is relatively low.
A slightly more practical idea concept would be a removable pack you
could swap with a charged one, but realistically these packages have
been far too large and heavy to just swap out. It could sort of be done
if the vehicle were designed around an easily removable pack, but it
would be unlikely the shape would be the interchangeable for different
make/models. And of course a useful network of battery swap stations
(you'd basically be renting their battery pack, since you don't want to
trade out one you own) would be quite an undertaking.
Danny
Mike Ellis wrote:
One of the things that makes gasoline so convenient is you just pour a bunch
into a pipe, right? Is it possible to create a battery pack with an "old"
electrolyte drain and a "fresh" electrolyte in? IE: pull up at an acid
station and drain and refill the pack? And the the "old" is then recycled?
I have a feeling I know (one of) the reason(s) this won't work, the
electrodes will foul and/or dissolve. But, like I have said, I'm pretty much
battery illiterate and thought I'd throw the idea out there... see who
shoots it down first :)
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fortunat Mueller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 1- is 80 ohms a reasonable value ?
That depends on its power rating. Curtis recommends a 750R 10W resistor
for the 1221C and a 620R 10W for the 1221B-6x. 80R will give you a
*much* faster precharge at the expense of much higher peak current.
With a 120V pack, the initial inrush current would be 1.5A, which
results in 180W of dissipation in the resistor (if sustained). Of
course, the current decays exponentially as the caps charge, so it falls
off fast, but you still need a beefy enough resistor that it doesn't
self-destruct immediately.
> 2- is it ok for me to leave this precharge circuit
> 'on' all the time when the key is on ? it will be in
> parallel with the closed secondary contactor whenever
> I am on the gas, and when I get off the gas, the
> contactor will open and the precharge will 'hold' the
> precharge in the controller.
> I figure if something happens to the controller to
> make it fail ON, i will lift off the gas, the
> secondary contactor will open and then the precharge
> fuse will blow quickly if asked to pass hundreds of
> amps.
Sounds reasonable. It think you definitely do want the precharge relay
to remain closed whenever the key is on to keep the caps charged even
when the secondary contactor opens. The 4.5A fuse may be a bit on the
high side. It will certainly blow if the controller tries to draw any
real current with your foot off the throttle, however, given that your
peak precharge current is only 1.5A and even that could result in 180W
dissipation in the precharge resistor if the controller caps fail to
precharge, I'd prefer a lower rated fuse (something more like 0.5-1A).
You may want to ensure the resistor is mounted where it cannot set
anything on fire should the controller fail to precharge in a reasonable
time, and realise that it is highly probable that in the event of a
precharge failure the resistor may open before the fuse... will it break
your pack voltage or not?
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe if you go to more pulses per revolution, you can get that critical
info sooner. Say 24 per rev
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is what is almost what is done in a REDOX battery.
Just search on Google....
Regards
Randall Prentice
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Ellis
> Sent: Friday, 24 February 2006 3:38 p.m.
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
>
>
> One of the things that makes gasoline so convenient is you
> just pour a bunch into a pipe, right? Is it possible to
> create a battery pack with an "old" electrolyte drain and a
> "fresh" electrolyte in? IE: pull up at an acid station and
> drain and refill the pack? And the the "old" is then recycled?
>
> I have a feeling I know (one of) the reason(s) this won't
> work, the electrodes will foul and/or dissolve. But, like I
> have said, I'm pretty much battery illiterate and thought I'd
> throw the idea out there... see who shoots it down first :)
>
> -Mike
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
It's not a cliff where life suddenly falls off the edge. rather, the deeper
you discharge, the shorter your battery's life. 50% DOD is a good number to aim
for, because that's about where you get the most total amphours out of the
battery over its entire life (for lead-acid).
For example, a battery might have a life of 1000 cycles to 50% DOD, or 300
cycles to 80% DOD. If it's a 100ah battery, then you get
- 1000 cycles x 0.5 x 100ah = 50,000 amphours total over its life
- 300 cycles x 0.8 x 100ah = 24,000 amphours total over its life
So discharging it to 80% every cycle cuts your battery life in half, i.e. makes
your battery cost twice as much per mile.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
But it this the complete analysis? Taking it one step further, using those
figres as a guide, I figure the vehicle with 80% dod went 8/5ths farther. So
on a battery cost per mile basis the 80% dod vehicle battery cost might only be
30% more. On my small car project with little space for batteries I might well
choose the discharge the batteries as far a practical and buy them more often.
Is this correct?
Lance Smith NorCal TriumphSpit/GT6 project in mind
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rich, and all, i have been giving some thought to rev limiters for my
own project. As well as rpm i plan to monitor the rate of change. If (for
example) the rpm changes from 1000 to 4000 in 1 second chances are its
running unloaded, missed shift, broken chain etc, shutdown or open a
contactor, why wait til it hits the rev limiter. After dragging out a dusty
old textbook i think i can differentiate the signal from the rpm sensor to
measure the delta rpm and trigger when it exceeds the determined threshold.
Of course it could be done in software, and would have the limiter as
secondary protection. Otmar, if your listening, have you considered this
idea? Do you think it has merit?
Yes it has merit. Yes the Hairball has the hardware to do it.
All that is lacking is my programming time to implement a faster rev
limit. (see sig line) The current setup was a quick "get it running"
mode but seems to have not let anyone down yet (fingers crossed).
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting resumes. Please see:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
Hi EVerybody;
> That has been long fantasized about, but the electrolyte does not store
> the energy; the plates do. The electrolyte does change composition as
> it's discharged, but the energy difference is relatively low.
>
Hmmm?? Doesn't the electrolyte in the Nicad battery do the chemical
thing, rather than the plates? I noticed in looking at blown up Nicads that
the plates were squeeky clean, they don't seem to change themselves as a
battery charges-discharges. Maybe I missed something or you COULD just drain
and dump fresh electrlyte in and go on yur way?You Chemistry geeks?
> A slightly more practical idea concept would be a removable pack you
> could swap with a charged one, but realistically these packages have
> been far too large and heavy to just swap out. It could sort of be done
> if the vehicle were designed around an easily removable pack, but it
> would be unlikely the shape would be the interchangeable for different
> make/models. And of course a useful network of battery swap stations
> (you'd basically be renting their battery pack, since you don't want to
> trade out one you own) would be quite an undertaking.
>
But ,yes ,you can "Dump" a dying battery, it becomes the Charge
Station's problem, NOT yours. One good thing about the battery swap concept.
But, Hell! We can't EVen agree on a standard CHARGE PLUG! Personally, I like
the standard 50amp" Range plug "ya get at Home Despot or Blows.Common,
cheap and easy to use. For Massive Dump Charging the Amtrak standard
car-to-car plug setups would work fine!Designing cars to ALL fit the
standard battery pack? Yeah right,you would be able to make the folks in the
middle east live together happily sooner<g>!
Seeya
Bob
> Danny
>
> Mike Ellis wrote:
>
> >One of the things that makes gasoline so convenient is you just pour a
bunch
> >into a pipe, right? Is it possible to create a battery pack with an "old"
> >electrolyte drain and a "fresh" electrolyte in? IE: pull up at an acid
> >station and drain and refill the pack? And the the "old" is then
recycled?
> >
> >I have a feeling I know (one of) the reason(s) this won't work, the
> >electrodes will foul and/or dissolve. But, like I have said, I'm pretty
much
> >battery illiterate and thought I'd throw the idea out there... see who
> >shoots it down first :)
> >
> >-Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Justin
I am picking Otmar here because his Rev limiter has a .250 second latency.
Where the OLD Raptor/Rexes had a PI loop and sub millisecond response times.
You would think Ot's stuff had a better Revlimiter that it does.
Yeah yeah Rich, get out that "too by fowa", I deserve it. :)
Even at that I have see my Z2k catch a couple busted belt Events on GP and
save the motors while doing it.
See, it did work.
(fingers still crossed)
But if you are going to run 200 volt motor voltages and 2000 amps having a
darn fast and solid Rev limiter is manditory..
Ya, it's on the list. Turns out I need to implement some high bit
math to do it well. As a side effect, when I implement the faster rev
limit we'll all suddenly have cruise control as well.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting resumes. Please see:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone
I took a few minutes at the shop and found both a steel and a bake-a-lite
comm that I could use to show everyone what they look like on the inside. I
actually changed the "Ouch" album to "Hall of Flames" just for you Madman 8^ )
Anyways I wanted to let those who wanted to see the differences that I got
some up to view.
Being it wasn't more than just a few weeks back that Wayland and Roy chewed
my butt for not having contact info there I'm trying to fill the site as best I
can. Chris wrote me about getting an order foarm listed but being I've never
had a ned to sell the products I use I need to do some homework as to costs and
freight charges before I can add that feature. I'll try to put that together
for those interested as soon as I can. Untill then I hope you enjoy the pics I
threw up of the comm bar defferences between steel and the Bake-A-Lite.
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com/
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Brings words and photos together (easily) with
PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got a 48 volt charger from
http://powerpackmotors.com/Powerpack-enhanced-shipping_included.html
for my recumbent (in photo section)
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I have built a recumbent Electric bike with a hub drive motor.
I have
> > 48v of lead acid for the traction pack; however the motor/wheel
kit came
> > with a 36v charger. The 48v makes for better top speed and
increased
> > range so I want to keep it. Does anyone have any suggestions
for a
> > smallish charger solution that could be assembled from parts or
is
> > available off shelf for a reasonable price? Keep in mind that
this bike
> > is built from junk yard parts and a limited budget
(intentionally).
> >
> > Ken Nelson
> >
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Exactly..
I can use the old Raptor 1200 as a cruise control...
As simple as Damon progrmmed it, it does a darn good job.
Condsider it a gental nudge...
Why my zilla goes to sleep, well that we need to talk about...
14 volt rail is at 14.5, Tach is... umm not present, but... seams to limit
the motors... Now that is a funny one.
My old laptop is doing EvilBuss driver chores, not Zill2 Maestro...
I am playing with EVilBuss operational Rudman Mk3 3 Regs.. I have 9 on
line.. and # 10 in the ATmel AVR STK500 programmer on Comm 2 I think...
Works.. I Dunno why...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
> >Justin
> >
> >I am picking Otmar here because his Rev limiter has a .250 second
latency.
> >Where the OLD Raptor/Rexes had a PI loop and sub millisecond response
times.
> >
> >You would think Ot's stuff had a better Revlimiter that it does.
>
> Yeah yeah Rich, get out that "too by fowa", I deserve it. :)
>
> >Even at that I have see my Z2k catch a couple busted belt Events on GP
and
> >save the motors while doing it.
>
> See, it did work.
> (fingers still crossed)
>
> >But if you are going to run 200 volt motor voltages and 2000 amps having
a
> >darn fast and solid Rev limiter is manditory..
>
> Ya, it's on the list. Turns out I need to implement some high bit
> math to do it well. As a side effect, when I implement the faster rev
> limit we'll all suddenly have cruise control as well.
>
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/
> The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
> Now accepting resumes. Please see:
> http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
it has been said
"We all hope and prey for batteries that can match
the gas for watt hours per pound"
I don't.
I don't want to strive to be that inefficient
I don't want to need to charge that much
I don't want to need to use that much.
lets go lithium poly
if we look at kokam america's 100ah cells lets grab 100 cells and allow 1/2 lb
of BMS/cell
2700G + 227g = 2927*100 = 645 Lbs
Now we rebuild the car from composites for improved safety,stiffness, and less
weight, better aero and assume 200 Wh/mile.
100*3.7*100=37kwh *.8 = 29600 Wh / 200 = 148 miles to 20% SOC This is 4.2
cubic feet of cells, lets double that to 8 cubic feet for packaging.
*.5 = 18500 Wh / 200 = 92 miles to 50% SOC A honda accord
has what is considered a small trunk of 14.1 cu.ft.
100 mile range per day easy, 140 mile once in a while. This would cover all the
driveing I have done for the last 10 years, I will rent a prius for longer
trips or drive onto a train and charge on the way.
give me water cooled and silent, single gear reduction, 12,000 rpm AC and the
space saved by eliminating ICE,multispeed tranny, big radiator,exhaust system,
oh, and the fuel tank and I think that more than covers the 8cu.ft. OK, maybe
not, the controllers are big.
Here is what I want to know
The math shows us that about 70% of the energy in a gallon of gas is given off
as heat in a ICE.
What if 1/2 that heat could be converted to electricity, stored in caps or
battery and used to power electric assist? you would get more motive power off
the exhaust heat than the output shaft. Double the Hp for free!
now, how do we do that? Peltier, high surface area Thermocouple? If I laminated
4" x 14" thin plates of iron and constanan, and fit this to the exhaust
header, can I make I higher voltage TC battery?
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--- Begin Message ---
Why not replace the live 3rd rail with a high frequency half of a
inductive transformer, the train would contain the other half of the
coil and the high freq would keep things small.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ya, it's on the list. Turns out I need to implement some high bit math
to do it well. As a side effect, when I implement the faster rev limit
we'll all suddenly have cruise control as well.
I've got a couple of connectors hanging out under the hood just waiting
for cruise control to be implemented in the Hairball!! Not that it
would get used much, but one more feature to mention to people.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am playing with EVilBuss operational Rudman Mk3 3 Regs.. I have 9 on
line.. and # 10 in the ATmel AVR STK500 programmer on Comm 2 I think...
Works.. I Dunno why...
Madman
So just 3 more to go and I get my 12, right? :) You could make the
Friday UPS run!
Can you tell I'm excited to try these guys out? Who else out there is
planning on outfitting their rig with MK3s?
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<<Hmmm?? Doesn't the electrolyte in the Nicad battery do the chemical
thing, rather than the plates? I noticed in looking at blown up Nicads that
the plates were squeeky clean, they don't seem to change themselves as a
battery charges-discharges. Maybe I missed something or you COULD just drain
and dump fresh electrlyte in and go on yur way?You Chemistry geeks?>>>
No, Bob, I think it's the opposite - the electrolyte in NiCd *isn't* involved in
the reaction, which is why you can't measure the charge by testing it but can
run one when it's frozen (although I've never seen data for that).
The Vanadium Redox battery is the only one I've read about whose electrolyte
*is* the energy reactant, but it's still better suited to stationary systems
due to energy density (haven't seen mention of power density...a Redox
dragster?).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm wrote:
>Who else out there is planning on outfitting their rig with MK3s?
$75 x 29 = $2,175... I was just getting used to the MK2 prices too...
--- End Message ---
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Update on Mk3 Regs
Now running on 9600 Baud.
Man we are getting there.
It's been a week... and Well I am just about where I expected to be, Lots of
progress, Not ready for prime time But...
So Ryan Forgetaboutit!!
I need a week with solid prefromance, not just go it going with some flakey
units...
Plus... you forget about the main reason
MINE MINE MINE!
On Rev 1.21 9600
Hey gotta hit PROG
later
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
>
> >I am playing with EVilBuss operational Rudman Mk3 3 Regs.. I have 9 on
> >line.. and # 10 in the ATmel AVR STK500 programmer on Comm 2 I think...
> >Works.. I Dunno why...
> >
> >Madman
> >
> >
> So just 3 more to go and I get my 12, right? :) You could make the
> Friday UPS run!
>
> Can you tell I'm excited to try these guys out? Who else out there is
> planning on outfitting their rig with MK3s?
>
> -Ryan
> --
> - EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
> Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim... anyone who thought a AdC 9 incher can take 7000 is nuts!!.
The 8 can take 8 K only when cold.
The 9 s I warn folks to stay under 6500.
Shucks, I guess I'm nuts. We used to take the 9" past 7K and the
younger Dieroff ran a 8" (cold) at 10K for 1/2 hour IIRC the quote
was "all day".
Still, in my view the comm should never be the limit. Usually the
windings on the end flay out first. But of course, that's probably
what the posts I missed were talking about.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting resumes. Please see:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
--- End Message ---
