EV Digest 5208
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: It's the energy density problem
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Swarthmore Engineering HEV project parts for sale
by Brian Cole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Brakes .. Vacuum to manual
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Bursa NLG 412B
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
by "Alan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) transmissions
by "James McKethen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV1 question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: It's the energy density problem (was: Battery charging in only
5minutes)
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by "Alan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV1 question
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: It's the energy density problem (was: Battery charging in only
5minutes)
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: It's the energy density problem (was: Battery charging in
only 5minutes)
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Battery powered Trains, and hybrids
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: It's the energy density problem
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Chargers - noise level (was: Brusa NLG 412B)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: transmissions
by Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: EV1 question
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: EV1 question
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Lee's battery balancer
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> So discharging it to 80% every cycle cuts your battery life in half,
>> i.e. makes your battery cost twice as much per mile.
>>
>> Which do you want? Range or life?
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> It's not fair to ask this Lee :-)
> Of course everyone wants range AND life AND cheap AND now... you know.
Yeah, I know. But life isn't fair!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
Remember though that the volumetric energy that you refer to for gasoline is
heat energy.
No. Energy is energy, so many joules in a liter of gasoline, period.
It just happens that today it can only be extracted by burning it
(so as heat), but if someone years from now discovers a way to
efficiently convert chemical energy of unburned cold gasoline
to electrical energy (similar to photo-cells converting light energy)
without burning it, than heating won't be an issue at all.
That's the theory, which may or may not practically happen though.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dunno if this is current, but the team is both looking
for componets & parting them out. Items in bold
are/were for sale.
http://www.engin.swarthmore.edu/org/HEV/index.html
-brian
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alan wrote:
> I can see how excessive charging overheats the battery...
> causes gasing... shortens its life. But what is the issue
> with discharging? Is it a temperature thing or something
> to do with rhe battery chemistry?
Battery chemistry. Basically, you run it too dead and it uses up all its
"fuel". Like running a horse until it drops dead from exhaustion; it
ain't good for long life.
In the case of the lead-acid battery, as it approaches "dead", all the
acid has been converted to lead sulfate, so the electrolyte approach
plain water. Water is a lousy conductor, so the battery develops high
resistance. What little energy remains is burned up as heat in this
internal resistance.
Also, all the lead oxide in the plates gets converted to lead sulfate.
Lead sulfate is also a poor conductor, adding more resistance and loss.
And, lead sulfate is physically larger than lead oxide, so the plates
swell and warp. The cyclic swelling/shrinking that occurs as it
charges/discharges causes this active material to flake off the plates,
and fall to the bottom as unusuable sludge. The deeper the discharge,
the greater this happens, shortening life.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> I was wondering about the fault current interrupt capability,
> as most EV batteries won't be able to sustain more than 3,000
> or maybe max 5,000 Amp, even on a dead short.
A big battery also has a lot of capacitance. If you short it, the
instantaneous peak current can be considerably higher than predicted
just by its internal resistance. You'll only get this peak for 1
millisecond or so before the current falls to a "mere" 1000 amps or so.
The controller also has a big bank of very low resistance capacitors in
it. If it is connected when the fault occurs, the fuse may have to break
its discharge current as well.
If the fault happens when the motor is at 1000 amps, the fuse may also
have to break the inductive spike caused by the motor. The inductance
keeps the peak current from rising any higher, but makes the peak
*voltage* that the fuse has to break even worse.
To do it "right", you'd throw a copper crowbar into the worst possible
place, and see what happens. The fuse should blow, but stay in one piece
more or less), without setting fire to anything or throwing debris like
bullets.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 18:09:26 -0000, "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Can the diaphram be broken/ punctured to make manual brakes that are
>easier to push than just removing the line ?
No. The power brake master cylinder has a bigger bore than the
corresponding manual brake cylinder. If you can find an appropriate
manual brake cylinder, one that will fit, then you can generate
considerably easier pedal.
Most of the parts catalogs list the bore diameters so you should be
able to shop the catalog.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph Merwin wrote:
Lawrence,
There are a couple of versions of the NLG412. The standard version allows
you to set charging profiles for just about any battery type. The other
version has a pre-programmed profile for SAFT STM5-100 NiCads, and this
profile cannot be changed except to set the pack voltage.
Not only that, the SAFT version has physically different layout
(PCB tracks) and EEPROM protection scheme, so you cannot modify
SAFT to non-SAFT version even if you get hold of all the non-saft
components including "open" EEPROM.
SAFT profile may or may not be suitable for your BB600, I doubt
but don't know for sure (NiCD is NiCD after all). But should you decide
to change the battery chemistry in future, SAFT version of charger
will be only useful for re-sale.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill / Danny
Regrding your mails. Is the energy stored in the lead ? i.e could you
charge up the battery dry, then add the electrolyte afterwards ?
alan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 4:07 PM
Subject: RE: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
> A couple of years ago, a company called Metallic Power was working on
> Zinc-Air fuel cells that looked promising. But then they went out of
> business. A couple other companies are still working on them, but I don't
> know the status. With their Zinc-Air system, you fed it in solid pellets,
> which turned into liquid, if I remember, after use. You saved the liquid
in
> a tank, then you could either regen it back into pellets overnight by
> supplying electricity, or you could drain the liquid and add more pellets.
> So it could be recharged either like a battery, or like a fuel cell.
>
> I think maybe PowerZinc and Electric Fuel are two other companies working
on
> Zinc-Air technology for vehicles.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Danny Miller
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:55 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
>
> As a side note, a device which converts replaceable chemical energy
> directly to electrical energy, whether solid, liquid, or gas is a fuel
> cell, not a battery. Hydrogen fuel cell is only one type, though it's
> the only type. If you're tied to rechanging the device with
> electricity, it's a battery, if you can feed in additional energy from a
> tank indefinitely, it's a fuel cell.
>
> If such a thing were possible, you probably wouldn't just flush the
> battery (fuel cell) at a charging station. You'd carry around a 10 gal
> tank of fresh liquid and a 10 gal tank of spent waste liquid (assuming
> it is unsafe to simply exhaust like hydrogen->H20). The cell would be
> designed with an inlet and outlet and constantly replenish the liquid as
> needed until the fresh liquid in the tank gets used up. You'd refill
> the tank and dump the old stuff for recycling/recharging.
>
> But, as we've said, the batteries I'm familiar with get their energy
> from the solid plates rather than the electrolyte. It is probably
> possible to get chemical energy from for example lead pellets or
> lead-bearing paste, something that could be renewed on the fly, and thus
> make a chemical fuel cell with a "fillup" tank and a tank of waste which
> can be electrically recharged back into fresh fuel again. I know of no
> promising possibilities standing out in this field though.
>
> Danny
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> ><<<Hmmm?? Doesn't the electrolyte in the Nicad battery do the chemical
> >thing, rather than the plates? I noticed in looking at blown up Nicads
that
> >the plates were squeeky clean, they don't seem to change themselves as a
> >battery charges-discharges. Maybe I missed something or you COULD just
> drain
> >and dump fresh electrlyte in and go on yur way?You Chemistry geeks?>>>
> >
> >No, Bob, I think it's the opposite - the electrolyte in NiCd *isn't*
> involved in
> >the reaction, which is why you can't measure the charge by testing it but
> can
> >run one when it's frozen (although I've never seen data for that).
> >
> >The Vanadium Redox battery is the only one I've read about whose
> electrolyte
> >*is* the energy reactant, but it's still better suited to stationary
> systems
> >due to energy density (haven't seen mention of power density...a Redox
> >dragster?).
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am thinking of using a powerglide transmission. Has anyone successfully
used this transmission?
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's only PART of an EV1, basically just a glider. GM stripped out all
the electronics before "Donating" it (no doubt for a HEFTY tax break).
I was rather surprised to here that GM actually left the motor in this one.
And no you can't buy it as a "Glider", part of the agreement:
"GM's grant program limits the use of the EV1 to a research environment
and only allows the vehicle to be driven on non-public streets"
>
>> BYU still has one that they use for racing.
>
>> yeah, but it sure 'aint stock! HowEVer that BYU looses interest and
>> wants
> to get rid of the car, can they just sell it?Perfect Glider for conversion
> to battery power.
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
>> --- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > ...
>> > Kind of a moot point though, since I believe that they've all been
>> > recovered and crushed by this point. Except a few that were
>> > refurbished
>> > and leased to government agencies on the east coast.
>> > ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Ryan Bohm wrote:
>
> >Who else out there is planning on outfitting their rig with MK3s?
>
> $75 x 29 = $2,175... I was just getting used to the MK2 prices too...
I realise Rich has to be able to make a living, but when you start
looking at this sort of money, you can actually get into some real data
acquisition equipment.
An Agilent 34970A data acquisition/switch unit with 6.5 digit DMM runs
about $1500 new (perhaps $1200 used), and with a bit of shopping around
you can find a pair of 20 channel armature MUX cards for $350-$400 each.
So, for about the same $2200 you could have 40 channels of 6.5 digit
data acquisition. The downside to this approach is that it only gives
you data acquisition (though throw in a 20-channel relay output card and
you could have 20 channels of balancing), however, there are 4 alarm
outputs that can be used to throttle back a charger or controller if any
monitored voltage or temp goes too high or low. The other downside to a
centralised data acquisition system is that the wiring gets messier.
Anyway, my thought is that if you just need the reg function, it is
probably hard to beat a set of MK2 regs; if you want data acquisition,
the MK3s are costly enough that there are other data acquisition options
worth consideration.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not my original idea, but what about a Stirling engine (or exhaust
half of a turbocharger) driven by the exhaust, to turn the engine
accessories, or even help turn the motor itself?
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ok; so has anyone done cogeneration in a car? :-) ...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee
Thanks for the explanation.
You talked about "your electrolyte turning to water". Has anyone tried
using dilute vinegar ( acetic acid ) as a battery electrolyte. I forget the
exact conductivity but when you have minute traces of vinegar in distilled
water the conductivity is high. It is a much nicer electrolyte to work with.
As its safer, it gives you options in battery design. But you have to be
careful to keep down external contamination.
alan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
> Alan wrote:
> > I can see how excessive charging overheats the battery...
> > causes gasing... shortens its life. But what is the issue
> > with discharging? Is it a temperature thing or something
> > to do with rhe battery chemistry?
>
> Battery chemistry. Basically, you run it too dead and it uses up all its
> "fuel". Like running a horse until it drops dead from exhaustion; it
> ain't good for long life.
>
> In the case of the lead-acid battery, as it approaches "dead", all the
> acid has been converted to lead sulfate, so the electrolyte approach
> plain water. Water is a lousy conductor, so the battery develops high
> resistance. What little energy remains is burned up as heat in this
> internal resistance.
>
> Also, all the lead oxide in the plates gets converted to lead sulfate.
> Lead sulfate is also a poor conductor, adding more resistance and loss.
> And, lead sulfate is physically larger than lead oxide, so the plates
> swell and warp. The cyclic swelling/shrinking that occurs as it
> charges/discharges causes this active material to flake off the plates,
> and fall to the bottom as unusuable sludge. The deeper the discharge,
> the greater this happens, shortening life.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In FuturecrusH they show one at a U (can't rememeber which one) which had
only it's controller electronics removed.
The staff inquired about obtaining the missing bits and specifically were
told it was removed so that they couldn't use the car as it was built. They
also had to agree to convert it to a hybrid.
-Mike
On 2/24/06, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It's only PART of an EV1, basically just a glider. GM stripped out all
> the electronics before "Donating" it (no doubt for a HEFTY tax break).
>
> I was rather surprised to here that GM actually left the motor in this
> one.
>
> And no you can't buy it as a "Glider", part of the agreement:
> "GM's grant program limits the use of the EV1 to a research environment
> and only allows the vehicle to be driven on non-public streets"
>
>
> >
> >> BYU still has one that they use for racing.
> >
> >> yeah, but it sure 'aint stock! HowEVer that BYU looses interest and
> >> wants
> > to get rid of the car, can they just sell it?Perfect Glider for
> conversion
> > to battery power.
> >
> > Seeya
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >> --- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> > ...
> >> > Kind of a moot point though, since I believe that they've all been
> >> > recovered and crushed by this point. Except a few that were
> >> > refurbished
> >> > and leased to government agencies on the east coast.
> >> > ...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> Do You Yahoo!?
> >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >> http://mail.yahoo.com
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Isn't the half a turbo charger idea the internal equivalent of putting a
windmill on the roof?
-Mike
On 2/24/06, David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Not my original idea, but what about a Stirling engine (or exhaust
> half of a turbocharger) driven by the exhaust, to turn the engine
> accessories, or even help turn the motor itself?
>
> --- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Ok; so has anyone done cogeneration in a car? :-) ...
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:34 PM 2/24/2006, you wrote:
Not my original idea, but what about a Stirling engine (or exhaust
half of a turbocharger) driven by the exhaust, to turn the engine
accessories, or even help turn the motor itself?
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ok; so has anyone done cogeneration in a car? :-) ...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Something like this?
http://www.osti.gov/fcvt/deer2005/Vuk.pdf
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Feb 24, 2006, at 8:40 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Why not replace the live 3rd rail with a high frequency half of a
inductive transformer, the train would contain the other half of the
coil and the high freq would keep things small.
This has been done. There are several "people mover" vehicles in
service
(Disneyland and the Dallas/Ft.Worth airports as I recall are two big
examples). Basically you have an "unrolled" induction motor, with the
"rotor" a long bar attached to the vehicle, and the "stator" attached
to
the floor.
When I was last at Disneyland (lo these many moons ago) the PeopleMover
was driven by rubber wheels sticking up from the track, spaced somewhat
less than one car length apart. They all turned continuously, and
squirted the car down the track. The cars were completely unpowered.
I guess this system has been shut down.
<http://www.yesterland.com/peoplemover.html>
You might be talking about the system at Walt Disney World, which has
been renamed the Tomorrowland Transit Authority.
<http://allearsnet.com/tp/mk/tta.htm>
Useless trivia dept, but how often do I get to correct Lee? :)
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alan wrote:
Bill / Danny
Regrding your mails. Is the energy stored in the lead ? i.e could you
charge up the battery dry, then add the electrolyte afterwards ?
IIRC In lead acid batteries the active material is in the plates and the
electrolyte (hence lead-acid). So to "swap" the active materials in a
lead acid battery would require changing both the electrolyte and the
plates.. easier to swap the entire battery.
Most other battery chemistry the electrolyte is just a carrier and all
the chemistry happens between the plates, so swapping out the plates
while leaving the electrolyte would work.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fuel cells do this now.
-Mike
On 2/24/06, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
> > Remember though that the volumetric energy that you refer to for
> gasoline is
> > heat energy.
>
> No. Energy is energy, so many joules in a liter of gasoline, period.
> It just happens that today it can only be extracted by burning it
> (so as heat), but if someone years from now discovers a way to
> efficiently convert chemical energy of unburned cold gasoline
> to electrical energy (similar to photo-cells converting light energy)
> without burning it, than heating won't be an issue at all.
>
> That's the theory, which may or may not practically happen though.
>
> Victor
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 2:35 AM
Subject: Chargers - noise level (was: Brusa NLG 412B)
As I am working with my first ev conversion, I´d like to know how noisy
air cooled chargers are generally, and these Brusa chargers
particularly? I´d like my ev to be silent in my home yard as well as on
the road... Anyone feel charger sound is a problem?
Thanks, Osmo
Yea I do. But pumping enough air to cool a 5 to 6.5 Kw charger that is less
than 1/2 a cubic foot...takes some pretty aggressive fans.
Ones that are not very quiet. I would love to make a silent charger...
The only solution is a liquid cooled charger, but that just moves the fans
and noise to another part of the EV.
Still even at this ...My chargers are not Too noisy... for almost all my
clients. What ever they do make for noise is too much for me. the quieter
the better.
But they have to remove the waste heat some how.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
---- James McKethen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> I am thinking of using a powerglide transmission. Has anyone successfully
> used this transmission?
>
> James
The majority of the folks you meet in this forum will discourage you from using
any type of automatic transmission. (I am in the minority).
However the older type powerglides were very limited to vacuum dependent
shifting, kickdown rods, etc that could run your motor at undesirable speeds.
You might want to look at using a more modern transmission with electric
controlled valve body if you are going to use an automatic. I am using a 4
speed electronic controlled transmission in my Saab conversion because I will
be able to control the shift points, lock the torque converter, etc. to
increase efficiency.
However whatever kind of automatic you use, you need to figure your needs for
range so you don' t end up limiting yourself.
Just my 2 cents worth...
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alan,
The electrolyte must be excellent ionic conductor but better
be insulator for electron flow; else you internally short the
battery between plates by own electrolyte.
It is not the same as just conducting electricity in salty water
or similar liquid.
Victor
Alan wrote:
Lee
Thanks for the explanation.
You talked about "your electrolyte turning to water". Has anyone tried
using dilute vinegar ( acetic acid ) as a battery electrolyte. I forget the
exact conductivity but when you have minute traces of vinegar in distilled
water the conductivity is high. It is a much nicer electrolyte to work with.
As its safer, it gives you options in battery design. But you have to be
careful to keep down external contamination.
alan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How do I get to the pictures that Jim Husted posted?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Ryan Bohm wrote:
>
> >Who else out there is planning on outfitting their rig with MK3s?
>
> $75 x 29 = $2,175... I was just getting used to the MK2 prices too...
I realise Rich has to be able to make a living, but when you start
looking at this sort of money, you can actually get into some real data
acquisition equipment.
An Agilent 34970A data acquisition/switch unit with 6.5 digit DMM runs
about $1500 new (perhaps $1200 used), and with a bit of shopping around
you can find a pair of 20 channel armature MUX cards for $350-$400 each.
So, for about the same $2200 you could have 40 channels of 6.5 digit
data acquisition. The downside to this approach is that it only gives
you data acquisition (though throw in a 20-channel relay output card and
you could have 20 channels of balancing), however, there are 4 alarm
outputs that can be used to throttle back a charger or controller if any
monitored voltage or temp goes too high or low. The other downside to a
centralised data acquisition system is that the wiring gets messier.
Anyway, my thought is that if you just need the reg function, it is
probably hard to beat a set of MK2 regs; if you want data acquisition,
the MK3s are costly enough that there are other data acquisition options
worth consideration.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For Zinc-Air, there's no lead involved. Energy is stored in zinc and in the
oxygen of our atmosphere--which is why these cells have a good Wh/Kg rating,
because half of the reactant is in the air around you, not in the cell.
The discharging process turns zinc into electricity and zinc oxide, which is
the main component in sun block (so the added benefit is that you can drive
in your convertible and just dip your face in the tank every so often--just
kidding!).
The recharge process takes electricity and turns the zinc oxide back into
zinc. The nice part is that you can also dump the zinc oxide tank and get a
refill of zinc pellets at a refueling station in around 5 minutes, letting
the recharge process be done by a factory dedicated to such matters. I
think this is the way that the Electric Fuel company is doing it, except
they use zinc plates instead of zinc pellets, so the process is a plate swap
instead of a pellet refill.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Alan
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
Bill / Danny
Regrding your mails. Is the energy stored in the lead ? i.e could you
charge up the battery dry, then add the electrolyte afterwards ?
alan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 4:07 PM
Subject: RE: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
> A couple of years ago, a company called Metallic Power was working on
> Zinc-Air fuel cells that looked promising. But then they went out of
> business. A couple other companies are still working on them, but I don't
> know the status. With their Zinc-Air system, you fed it in solid pellets,
> which turned into liquid, if I remember, after use. You saved the liquid
in
> a tank, then you could either regen it back into pellets overnight by
> supplying electricity, or you could drain the liquid and add more pellets.
> So it could be recharged either like a battery, or like a fuel cell.
>
> I think maybe PowerZinc and Electric Fuel are two other companies working
on
> Zinc-Air technology for vehicles.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Danny Miller
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:55 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
>
> As a side note, a device which converts replaceable chemical energy
> directly to electrical energy, whether solid, liquid, or gas is a fuel
> cell, not a battery. Hydrogen fuel cell is only one type, though it's
> the only type. If you're tied to rechanging the device with
> electricity, it's a battery, if you can feed in additional energy from a
> tank indefinitely, it's a fuel cell.
>
> If such a thing were possible, you probably wouldn't just flush the
> battery (fuel cell) at a charging station. You'd carry around a 10 gal
> tank of fresh liquid and a 10 gal tank of spent waste liquid (assuming
> it is unsafe to simply exhaust like hydrogen->H20). The cell would be
> designed with an inlet and outlet and constantly replenish the liquid as
> needed until the fresh liquid in the tank gets used up. You'd refill
> the tank and dump the old stuff for recycling/recharging.
>
> But, as we've said, the batteries I'm familiar with get their energy
> from the solid plates rather than the electrolyte. It is probably
> possible to get chemical energy from for example lead pellets or
> lead-bearing paste, something that could be renewed on the fly, and thus
> make a chemical fuel cell with a "fillup" tank and a tank of waste which
> can be electrically recharged back into fresh fuel again. I know of no
> promising possibilities standing out in this field though.
>
> Danny
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> ><<<Hmmm?? Doesn't the electrolyte in the Nicad battery do the chemical
> >thing, rather than the plates? I noticed in looking at blown up Nicads
that
> >the plates were squeeky clean, they don't seem to change themselves as a
> >battery charges-discharges. Maybe I missed something or you COULD just
> drain
> >and dump fresh electrlyte in and go on yur way?You Chemistry geeks?>>>
> >
> >No, Bob, I think it's the opposite - the electrolyte in NiCd *isn't*
> involved in
> >the reaction, which is why you can't measure the charge by testing it but
> can
> >run one when it's frozen (although I've never seen data for that).
> >
> >The Vanadium Redox battery is the only one I've read about whose
> electrolyte
> >*is* the energy reactant, but it's still better suited to stationary
> systems
> >due to energy density (haven't seen mention of power density...a Redox
> >dragster?).
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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The staff inquired about obtaining the missing bits and specifically were
told it was removed so that they couldn't use the car as it was built. They
also had to agree to convert it to a hybrid.
Hm. If the motor was there you could just toss in a Dolphin and go from
there. Made by GM, 300 volt AC vector controller, can do 50kw without an
issue, more if you beef up the IGBTs. You can even reprogram the thing
to match an EV1 motor.
Chris
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Unfortunately, GM supplied the EV1s to BYU et. al. with a lot of the
components missing, like the controller, which are difficult to reverse
engineer (BYU built their own). I think that BYU also had to sign a waver
saying that they'd never make it a street legal car.
So they use it for racing, and if you read the page, you'll see that they've
concentrated on the 1/4 mile using Ultracapacitors. There are 160
Ultracapacitors under the hood, at 2.5V 2700F each, giving, if I've
calculated correctly, around 375Wh of energy onboard--enough to floor it for
1/4 or 1/2 mile, but not much more.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Ellis
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV1 question
In FuturecrusH they show one at a U (can't rememeber which one) which had
only it's controller electronics removed.
The staff inquired about obtaining the missing bits and specifically were
told it was removed so that they couldn't use the car as it was built. They
also had to agree to convert it to a hybrid.
-Mike
On 2/24/06, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It's only PART of an EV1, basically just a glider. GM stripped out all
> the electronics before "Donating" it (no doubt for a HEFTY tax break).
>
> I was rather surprised to here that GM actually left the motor in this
> one.
>
> And no you can't buy it as a "Glider", part of the agreement:
> "GM's grant program limits the use of the EV1 to a research environment
> and only allows the vehicle to be driven on non-public streets"
>
>
> >
> >> BYU still has one that they use for racing.
> >
> >> yeah, but it sure 'aint stock! HowEVer that BYU looses interest and
> >> wants
> > to get rid of the car, can they just sell it?Perfect Glider for
> conversion
> > to battery power.
> >
> > Seeya
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >> --- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> > ...
> >> > Kind of a moot point though, since I believe that they've all been
> >> > recovered and crushed by this point. Except a few that were
> >> > refurbished
> >> > and leased to government agencies on the east coast.
> >> > ...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> Do You Yahoo!?
> >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >> http://mail.yahoo.com
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
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Hey Dennis
You must have missed the link so here it is agian. All the pics are listed
in the Hi-Torque Photo area.
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com/
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
How do I get to the pictures that Jim Husted posted?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Ryan Bohm wrote:
>
> >Who else out there is planning on outfitting their rig with MK3s?
>
> $75 x 29 = $2,175... I was just getting used to the MK2 prices too...
I realise Rich has to be able to make a living, but when you start
looking at this sort of money, you can actually get into some real data
acquisition equipment.
An Agilent 34970A data acquisition/switch unit with 6.5 digit DMM runs
about $1500 new (perhaps $1200 used), and with a bit of shopping around
you can find a pair of 20 channel armature MUX cards for $350-$400 each.
So, for about the same $2200 you could have 40 channels of 6.5 digit
data acquisition. The downside to this approach is that it only gives
you data acquisition (though throw in a 20-channel relay output card and
you could have 20 channels of balancing), however, there are 4 alarm
outputs that can be used to throttle back a charger or controller if any
monitored voltage or temp goes too high or low. The other downside to a
centralised data acquisition system is that the wiring gets messier.
Anyway, my thought is that if you just need the reg function, it is
probably hard to beat a set of MK2 regs; if you want data acquisition,
the MK3s are costly enough that there are other data acquisition options
worth consideration.
Cheers,
Roger.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
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Actually I was never asked what I thought.
Bruce took the simplest version and has done good things with it.
I have no idea what makes anybody's version better or worse.
What I do know is what is working and what I can produce and support.
Since we intend to publish what we have and let others advance the craft as
they see fit.... those that have the most installed Base will pretty much
become the standard.
If we can make our Mk3 regs compliant with the LEE HART standard We will.
I have been staying in the back ground on the Evil Buss development for
years and I have seen some really talented folks design them into oblivion.
It's been 5 Years since I proposed a RS-232 level ASCII based Rudman Reg, I
now have what I wanted.
The Joke on a the EVil buss is how many engineers does it take to properly
send a CR LF sequence... apparently about 2 dozen and at a bout 50 different
Baud Rates.
I have waited for the dust to settle and a lone rider to actually make a
effort with my guidance in the Feature list/creep department. It looks like
it has paid off. Now I am off the fence and expect digital controls and data
transfers in most of my chargers and BMS efforts as soon as we can turn the
PCBs.
What really lit the motivational fire under Bruce Sherry was watching my
"Reg Centered charging" work without any Digital controls at all. That was
last winter. Now we have a even better way of tuning high power chargers and
adjusting Regs and BMS data points on the fly.
My only fear is the dreaded Software man years needed to bring a product on
line then test it and support it for Decades. We have done well without
software of any kind on our chargers. They are out and working every day,
without Software to fail and micros to Scramble, and crash. Now that we
will be leaning on Micro code... will I have better reliability or Worse?
I would sincerely hope that Lee and the Other Evil Buss developers try to
support each other in their efforts.
I know Otmar and I will do what we can....But we both have quite different
needs with our own products and what we can and cannot do with the EVil
Buss.
Now that it's here... I will see where it goes...Everybody has merits that
are valid... chasing them is a great way to miss a moving target.
So we picked one that a LOT of folks needed that is VERY important to the
battery charger and BMS designs. This is where it's going to start.
So... EVil buss will now have a producer that intends to support it for
every day uses.
Lets see where it goes.
This time I am the Chairman... not the amused engineer...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: Lee's battery balancer
> >> I'm going to be using Lee Harts new version of his battery balancers...
>
> STEVE CLUNN wrote:
> > Is there a new build going on? I didn't see anything about it, are we
> > still waiting for 10 people to order boards? Now that I think about it,
> > I don't think I saw that check clear, did I miss out?
>
> Yes, I got 8 confirmed orders with deposits, and started making another
> batch last fall. But my computer died in Nov, and I got distracted in
> trying to upgrade and fix it. (Upgrading was a waste of time; I gave up
> and just fixed the old computer). Also, I got sidetracked in writing
> EVILbus software so I can add it to the Balancer. It works, but won't be
> compatible with Rich's system. (We couldn't get any agreement on a
> standard protocol; everyone insists on doing it their way).
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
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