EV Digest 5209
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Mk3 Reg Costs
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Mk3s expense/benifits
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Mk3 Reg Costs
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: It's the energy density problem (was: Battery charging in only
5minutes)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Small Bad Dumb Charger (was: RE: Big ...)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: It's the energy density problem, not!! It's an engineering one
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Brakes .. Vacuum to manual
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: It's the energy density problem
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery powered Trains, and hybrids
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: It's the energy density problem, not!! It's an engineering one
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Can a generator be fitted on an EV, powered by the drivetrain?
by "John Todd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: It's the energy density problem
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Trip in Emergency Only
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Mk3s expense/benifits
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Can a generator be fitted on an EV, powered by the drivetrain?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: transmissions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Trip in Emergency Only
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Trip in Emergency Only
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Small Bad Dumb Charger (was: RE: Big ...)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Trip in Emergency Only
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Can a generator be fitted on an EV, powered by the drivetrain?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Can a generator be fitted on an EV, powered by the drivetrain?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Newbie question: Multiple cheap motors to drive a vehicle
by "ziperle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Look at it from the bottom up. If you have a 48V system you can add
balancing and data logging on 4 Batteries for only $316. Or if you
break it down, you get data logging for only $136 (79-45 x 4). Even
up to 12 batteries ($408) that is hard to beat.
At 2/24/2006 01:30 PM, you wrote:
Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Ryan Bohm wrote:
>
> >Who else out there is planning on outfitting their rig with MK3s?
>
> $75 x 29 = $2,175... I was just getting used to the MK2 prices too...
I realise Rich has to be able to make a living, but when you start
looking at this sort of money, you can actually get into some real data
acquisition equipment.
An Agilent 34970A data acquisition/switch unit with 6.5 digit DMM runs
about $1500 new (perhaps $1200 used), and with a bit of shopping around
you can find a pair of 20 channel armature MUX cards for $350-$400 each.
So, for about the same $2200 you could have 40 channels of 6.5 digit
data acquisition.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yup I agree.
But finding them getting them all wired up and running is goign to be a
real challenge.
So is the first build up of a aMk3 Reg String...But... the Regs are 4 by 3
inches, take RJ 6 conductor cable... and also run as stand alone Regs.
By the way 8 ran all night.. are doing so behind me right now.
Get that from Agilent...
The MK3 software can be done manually from a PC with TERM of another simple
Com package...AKA very free and well tested.
Get that From Agilent...
The Scan software will be provided in Qbasic, with source code...I think
it's already on our Website if not it will be very soon.
Get that From Agilent...
We looked into a REAL data ack system for the Monster chargers.. it was
spendy, and still required a LOT of custom code to get any real levels of
user friendlyness.
Hp had a system...oh right..HP and Agilent are the same now.
The Raw cost might come close but the made for EVs and simple commands make
the Mk3 Reg one of the cheapest Data collection systems around.
Keep in mind I can drop the price if we need to... But the Bang for the Buck
with these Regs is impressive right now. It will get more so as we shake
them down even more.
And Yea for $75 I might even conformal coat them. Or find some PacTeK boxes
for them.
So let me get some out there and running before I get the formal Peer
Review.
Right now I find myself doing the "Yup we need that" and then having it
handed to me before I get to really understand what I have.
Right now they are one fun set of BMS tools, and we havn't gotten them fully
programmed and all the features lit off.
With 12 onhand... doing the up the REV level routine can take some time. I
have 24 more that need parts...gotta spend some more cash at Miser and
Digikrime.
YES I have new stuff on the Website!!! NO it's not complete... some say it
never will be...
But ...it's there!
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/mk3reg.htm
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 11:30 AM
Subject: RE: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
> Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Ryan Bohm wrote:
> >
> > >Who else out there is planning on outfitting their rig with MK3s?
> >
> > $75 x 29 = $2,175... I was just getting used to the MK2 prices too...
>
> I realise Rich has to be able to make a living, but when you start
> looking at this sort of money, you can actually get into some real data
> acquisition equipment.
>
> An Agilent 34970A data acquisition/switch unit with 6.5 digit DMM runs
> about $1500 new (perhaps $1200 used), and with a bit of shopping around
> you can find a pair of 20 channel armature MUX cards for $350-$400 each.
> So, for about the same $2200 you could have 40 channels of 6.5 digit
> data acquisition. The downside to this approach is that it only gives
> you data acquisition (though throw in a 20-channel relay output card and
> you could have 20 channels of balancing), however, there are 4 alarm
> outputs that can be used to throttle back a charger or controller if any
> monitored voltage or temp goes too high or low. The other downside to a
> centralised data acquisition system is that the wiring gets messier.
>
> Anyway, my thought is that if you just need the reg function, it is
> probably hard to beat a set of MK2 regs; if you want data acquisition,
> the MK3s are costly enough that there are other data acquisition options
> worth consideration.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keep in mind they:
Data log
Reg as a stand alone Rudman Reg.
Talk back to PFC chargers
Are prgrammable as regs down the wire
They do a LOT of stuff.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Niessen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 11:57 AM
Subject: RE: Mk3 Reg Costs
> Look at it from the bottom up. If you have a 48V system you can add
> balancing and data logging on 4 Batteries for only $316. Or if you
> break it down, you get data logging for only $136 (79-45 x 4). Even
> up to 12 batteries ($408) that is hard to beat.
>
> At 2/24/2006 01:30 PM, you wrote:
> >Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > Ryan Bohm wrote:
> > >
> > > >Who else out there is planning on outfitting their rig with MK3s?
> > >
> > > $75 x 29 = $2,175... I was just getting used to the MK2 prices too...
> >
> >I realise Rich has to be able to make a living, but when you start
> >looking at this sort of money, you can actually get into some real data
> >acquisition equipment.
> >
> >An Agilent 34970A data acquisition/switch unit with 6.5 digit DMM runs
> >about $1500 new (perhaps $1200 used), and with a bit of shopping around
> >you can find a pair of 20 channel armature MUX cards for $350-$400 each.
> >So, for about the same $2200 you could have 40 channels of 6.5 digit
> >data acquisition.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There was a test Class 8 truck on display at the NTRC conference I
attended a couple of years ago. The turbocharger was equipped with a
radial gap PM motor/alternator between the bearing capsule and the
blower side. It both motored up the turbine to decrease boost delay
and generated power for the vehicle.
It seemed to be working fine. How cost-effective it might turn out to
be, I don't know. My gut says that on large vehicles it would be
highly cost-effective. On a small car, who knows?
This thing recovers a lot of heat but there is still useful heat in
the exhaust. perhaps a stirling or more likely, a low temperature
steam turbine using something other than water as the working fluid
would work. Again, whether it would be cost-effective is in doubt.
John
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 11:34:25 -0800 (PST), David Dymaxion
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Not my original idea, but what about a Stirling engine (or exhaust
>half of a turbocharger) driven by the exhaust, to turn the engine
>accessories, or even help turn the motor itself?
>
>--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Ok; so has anyone done cogeneration in a car? :-) ...
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> "The Bonn charger (designed by Don Bonn) is a bad-boy charger with a few
> manners. The key addition is a big series inductor, in series with the
> input to the bridge rectifier. The inductor filters and limits the peak
> current, so it won't burn up cords. The inductor also improves the power
> factor, so you get more charging current out of a given AC outlet. It
> also has a GFCI for safety, an ammeter so you know what you're doing,
> and a timer to automatically shut it off. This may be what you want. I
> can publish the circuit if you need it."
>
kluge wrote:
> ---So now you've got us on the edges of our seats... How big of an
> inductor? And didn't you also have a capacitor across the AC on your
> bad boy Bonn?
Ok, ok. Here's one of those terrible ASCII schematics. View it with a
fixed width font or it will look like gibberish.
S1 ____ S2 _ _ _
120vac___/___| |___/_______________________| | | | L1
black | | | | | | |
|GFCI| | C1 _|_ | O O
| | | ___ ___ | high / low J2
ground_______| | _|_ |___/| |\__| O _____ F1 ___
green _|_ | | Fan / \ | \_o_/ S3 |__|AC +|__/\ __| +
|
/// | | \___/ | _|_ J1 | | \/ |
|
| | | | /// D1 | | M1__ |
|
120vac_______| |_______|_____|____________________|AC -|__/ \__| -
|
white |____| |_____| \__/
|___|
GFCI = Ground Fault Circuit Interruptor. This is the same gadget you
find in your kitchen, bathroom, or outside outlets. It is there
to prevent shocks if you touch your batteries while the charger
is operating.
S1 = Circuit breaker. I used a 120vac 12amp breaker which looks like
an oversized toggle switch. This provides an easy way to turn
the charger on/off. I used a 12amp breaker so it will trip
*before* the 15amp breaker that protects the circuit, so you
don't have to run down to the basement or get someone with a
key to reset a tripped breaker.
S2 = Intermatic 240vac 20amp 12-hour timer. This is a mechanical timer
with a knob that you can set for 0-12 hours. Set it to the
maximum charging time to automatically shut off when done.
S3 = SPDT toggle switch, 120vac 15amp minimum. This switch selects
between taps on the inductor, to control the charging rate.
If you can find one, a multi-position rotary switch can be
used instead to select more than 2 taps.
Fan = 120vac 5-10watt fan, about 3"-4" square. It's needed because
D1 and L1 get hot.
C1 = 5-10uf 220vac or more motor run capacitor. This must be a film
or paper/oil capacitor, not an electrolytic! It improves the
power factor so you can charge at a higher current without
tripping the breaker.
J1 = normal 120vac 15amp receptacle. This is a "convenience" outlet
for plugging in a 12v accessory battery charger, heater, or
other gadget you might need. As shown it is a switched outlet.
If your GFCI includes such a receptacle, you can use it.
J2 = Anderson PowerPole connector, 15/30/45 amp size (all use the same
housing). These are DC rated to 600v and the industry standard
for battery connectors.
D1 = bridge rectifier, 400v 35amp minimum. If you skimp on the ratings,
it will fail sooner or later!
F1 = 250vdc 15amp fuse, Bussman ABC or Littelfuse 3AB 1.25" x 0.25"
ceramic-body fuse. Must be DC rated!
M1 = 0-15amp DC ammeter. Inexpensive ones are found in almost any old
12v battery charger.
L1 = inductor. The Bonn inductor is about 3.5" on a side and weighs
about 5 lbs. It is a single winding of #12 wire with six
connections 1-6. Inductance is as follows:
1-2 = 0.15mH
1-3 = 0.64mH
1-4 = 3mH
1-5 = 7mH
1-6 = 13mH
This provides lots of connection options. Here are the ones
I've figured out (with #1 being the input):
96v pack: high=5, low=6
108v pack: high=4, low=5
120v pack: high=3, low=4
132v pack: high=2, low=3
You'll probably have to make this inductor yourself. Find a
60hz transformer of about the right weight, and take it apart.
Rewind it with as much #12 wire as will fit, bringing out taps
every layer or so. Reassemble it with all the "E" laminations
in one stack, and all the "I" in another. Put a thin paper shim
between the E and I stacks (this stabilizes the inductance so
it won't change so much with current). The thickness of this
paper shim will adjust the inductance, too.
You also need a good accurate voltmeter. The charging current alone is
meaningless unless you also know the voltage! I use the E-meter already
in my EV. You could add a cheap digital multimeter onto the charger,
powering it with a "wall wart" so you don't have to keep replacing the
battery.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "David C. Navas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: It's the energy density problem
>--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote: While batts don't carry a lot of power for
>> their weight, it's not really a problem for most
>> transport needs. As the Sunrise has shown with it's 373
>> mile range, there is little reason a well design from
>> scratch EV can't work well enough for many to have an EV
>as their only car.
>
>Yes, but, the efficiencies you derive from an aero car
>apply equally to gas cars.
While true, that's besides the point as whether an EV
can be practical is. Neither the Sunrise or the Freedom EV
is small, as large or larger than other ICE cars of there
type, mostly for crash protection.
And one can't just compare batt weight to gas weight
without considering the weight nessasary to make a gas
motor/drive work to the weight of the gas, it's tank. Add a
transmission, exhaust, radiator, space needed to your list
of engine, ect and things get much closer.
One has to consider the whole package, not just an
isolated part as you need completely different vehicles for
EV and ICE.
And few need over 100 mile range, easily done with
lead batts which leads to much lower weight, costs.
I think many of us look forward
>to being able to purchase a Sunrise :) I know I do.
So do I!!! It's going to take serious money to get
that going though.
>
>Putting aside purpose-built EVs, I think there's a simple
>way to look at it. You have roughly 600lbs to play with to
>make a neutral-weight conversion. You need roughly 100kwh
>to go 300-400 miles.
The most built as an EV from scratch get well under
your 200-300wthrs/mile with the 2000lb Sunrise doing
100wthrs and the EV-1, an overweight EV for 2 people at
3000lbs, got 160wthrs/mile. Any good production EV is going
to have around 100wthrs/mile energy use as has been proven.
So you only need 40-50kw without deeply discharging the
batts to do 3-400 miles which greatly reduces costs, weight.
I believe Cliff's Imp's Kokam's batt pack weigh about
360 lbs for 29kw which added to EV's eff, gets one in the
ballpark.
Subtract 200lbs for the motor +
>controller, and the battery has to hit 550wh/kg -- a true
>stretch goal for a standard battery (with both reducer and
>oxidizers included).
You can cut that, 550wh/kg in 1/2 as per above. And
one would need less that 200 lbs for motor/controller as
mine weighs just 120 lbs for both. And I'm working on a
motor/controller that weighs 1/2 of that, just 50-60 or so
lbs!!
>
>>From a volume standpoint, if you want the batteries all
>under the rear seat, you're probably talking about four
>cubic feet. If I just did my math correctly, that's 108
>liters. 100kwh in 100 liters is 1kwh/l. That appears to
>be a much more difficult goal. [it is also somewhat more
>arbitrary]
Very arbitrary!! I'd get almost 1000 mile max range
with 100kwhrs in the Freedom EV!!! Yet I could put that much
in the Freedom EV!! As there are about 28 liters in a cubic
foot, space just isn't a problem. I have about 11 cu' in the
Freedom dedicated for batts. And it's battery compartment,
suspension is designed for 800 lbs of batts if needed.
>
>>From a price standpoint, I think it unlikely that
>automakers want to spend more than a couple grand to
>replace a $50 gas tank. $2000/100kwh is a pricepoint of
>$20/kwh. Nearly ludicrous.
But they are not just replacing a gas tank but the
engine, ect. And lead batts are going for about $60kwhr so
not so ludicrous, especially once the Li-ion production
ramps up as it may end up cheaper than lead batts. Also you
have much more design freedom in an EV which again saves
much weight.
>
>>From a reusability perspective, if you want a car to go
>200k miles over its life, and you get 400mpc, you only need
>500 cycles. This seems doable.
>
>>From a power perspective, with a 100kwh pack, you probably
>wouldn't need to draw more than 2C -- also very reasonable.
>
>If you want to charge the pack in 5 minutes (which, btw, is
>longer than it takes to fill my auto with gas -- I tend to
>get antsy around 3 minutes, and yes, I have timed myself),
>you have problems. 12C charging is, likely, coming. But,
>feeding the necessary amps into a 100kwh pack even at very
>high voltages sounds ... dangerous. Maybe someone would
>calculate the size of the connects you'd need.
But you leave out several big points as you usually
take only 1 min to charge at home work wise by plugging in,
saving much time that one can the few times one would need
to charge the batts away from home. Plus one could just use
a small gas gen and charge as you drive. And after going 250
miles, most people need a bathroom/ eating break/ect
anyways, long enough for fast charging.
While batts don't have the same energy density, you
can easily design around it.
And one can't forget EV eff of 3-5x an ICE getting
power to the road or even 6.5x's if the power comes from
dams, windgens, solar, ect.
Plus one can get electricity from many more sources as
ICE fuels become more rare.
With a 250 mile range Li-ion batt pack my EV will only
weigh about 1100lbs. Compare that to any other 2 seat car,
sportwagon with the same crash protection. .
>
>
>In my opinion, on the grand scale of things, we have a
>pricing issue. We're a factor of 2-4 for weight and volume
>, and more than a factor of 50 for price. I will be
>interested to see what A123 sells their DeWalt replacement
>packs for.
No thanks as the parallel problems are too large,
I'll wait for the Kokam's or other large amphr cells!!
BTW I just got the emissions data on my Robin gen
engine and it will only put out about 1g/mile of combined
HC/NO2 which if averaged over the EV only driving too, makes
it a very, very low emissions vehicle overall with
unlimited range.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
>
>-Dave
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jmygann wrote:
> Can the diaphragm be broken/ punctured to make manual brakes that are
> easier to push than just removing the line ?
No.
What is the vehicle? Was there ever a version of the vehicle that
actually had manual brakes?
You may need to modify the brake pedal for more leverage. You may
need a different size master cylinder. Do a lot of research on it.
Scroll down some to where it takes about the brake pedal and master
cylinder, etc:
http://www.ffcobra.com/FAQ/brakes3.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's a working gasoline-to-electricity fuel cell that can be bought?
Linky, please.
Mike Ellis wrote:
Fuel cells do this now.
-Mike
On 2/24/06, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
Remember though that the volumetric energy that you refer to for
gasoline is
heat energy.
No. Energy is energy, so many joules in a liter of gasoline, period.
It just happens that today it can only be extracted by burning it
(so as heat), but if someone years from now discovers a way to
efficiently convert chemical energy of unburned cold gasoline
to electrical energy (similar to photo-cells converting light energy)
without burning it, than heating won't be an issue at all.
That's the theory, which may or may not practically happen though.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doug Weathers wrote:
> You might be talking about the system at Walt Disney World, which has
> been renamed the Tomorrowland Transit Authority.
>
> <http://allearsnet.com/tp/mk/tta.htm>
>
> Useless trivia dept, but how often do I get to correct Lee? :)
Yes, I think you have it right! Thanks for the correction.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Yes, but, the efficiencies you derive from an aero car apply equally to
>gas cars.
I've wondered about this, especially the "equal" part. Someone tell me if
I'm thinking about it correctly:
In an ICE vehicle, you're using about 20% of the energy for motion, the rest
being wasted as heat. In an EV, you're getting around 80% of the energy
used as motion. So, if you make an aero improvement, isn't that mostly
helping the part of the energy used for pushing through the air, and not the
wasted heat part? Therefore, the same aero improvement made to an EV would
have around 4 times the impact of the same improvement made to an ICE.
Or am I thinking about it in my usual upside-down, inside-out,
they-make-idiot-proof-stuff-for-guys-like-you way?
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is it at all possible for a generator or alternator to run off the motion of
the vehicle itself? I am VERY new to Electric Vehicles, and I have always
been curious about this.
_________________________________________________________________
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 02:05:17PM -0800, Eric Poulsen wrote:
> There's a working gasoline-to-electricity fuel cell that can be bought?
> Linky, please.
Well, it's not really gasoline, can't be bought, and might not work...
But it is a link:
http://www.2003toyotatundra-stepside.com/about/environment/technology/fuelcell_hybrid.html#fchv-5
:)
If something like this did work, it seems like it would be the ideal range
extender for EVs. Don't you think?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A few weeks ago, there was a discussion here about where to put the
emergency disconnect, for example in the case of controller failure in
full-on mode. Someone suggested on the clutch, but someone else said that
the break pedal makes more sense, since that's what you'd naturally stomp on
in case of emergency.
Has anyone looked into the possibility of hooking a high-voltage switch or
contactor or breaker up to the brake pedal so that under normal
circumstances, when you were just applying the brake in daily use, nothing
would get disconnected--but if you really pressed hard or fast on the pedal,
the switch would open? Is such a thing even possible?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> But finding them getting them all wired up and running is
> goign to be a real challenge.
> The MK3 software can be done manually from a PC with TERM of
> another simple Com package...AKA very free and well tested.
> The Scan software will be provided in Qbasic, with source
> code...
>
> Get that From Agilent...
No problem. The 34970A and its cards are off-the-shelf items and are
readily available new, used, and rental. They come with free software
that provides a nice graphical user interface and lets one drag and drop
strip charts to allow graphing of the data in real time as it is logged,
and/or DMM readouts to monitor any channel of interest.
Now, I don't argue the point that if someone wants a minimum effort
system that provides reg and data acquisition features, then the MK3s
win hands down. My point is that people who have longer strings of
batteries are going to spend enough on a MK3 system that they could get
a real data acquisition system with better measurement capabilities for
similar money, *but* they would have to be prepared to do more work to
get the reg feature with it.
> We looked into a REAL data ack system for the Monster
> chargers.. it was spendy, and still required a LOT of custom
> code to get any real levels of user friendlyness. Hp had a
> system...oh right..HP and Agilent are the same now.
Maybe you need to look again. I've been using the 34970A for about 5
years and have 5 or 6 of them in use around the lab. It is arguably the
best bang for the data acquisition buck. The basic unit runs about
$900-1000 without DMM; this gives you a 3-slot switch unit for control
duty. The DMM adds about $500 (about the cost of a good handheld DMM)
and now you have a 3-slot 6.5 digit data acquisition/switch unit.
Populate it with whatever I/O cards suit your needs. Voltage and
current measurements are trivially easy; just connect wires to the
voltage to be monitored or to the shunt and enter in the appropriate
gain factor for that channel to convert its reading from volts to amps.
Temperature is just as easy; connect the thermocouple of your choice to
an input channel and select the appropriate thermocouple type from a
drop down list for that channel.
There are 4 alarm channels available, and you can configure them to be
active high or low and latching or not, and configure any channel to set
any alarm on high or low conditions. The free software also allows you
to add computed channels (e.g. you could add a power channel that
logs/displays the product of a voltage channel and a current channel, or
it could be based on almost any other combination of channels, including
other computed channels), which can also fire alarms. If you need more
output/control capabilities than the basic 4 alarms allow, just add an
appropriate output card.
No custom code at all to do data acquisition, just run up the free
Agilent-supplied application. It doesn't get any friendlier for the
user.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<< Is it at all possible for a generator or alternator to run off the motion of
the vehicle itself? I am VERY new to Electric Vehicles, and I have always
been curious about this. >>>
Listees call that the "generator in the wheel" question, which sometimes occurs
with the "windmill on the hood" question. The answer is no, unless you are
talking about regenerative braking.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello James,
I just got done talking to TCI transmission company who sets up Powerglide
transmission for racing. The Powerglide comes with a 1 st gear ratio of
1.76. The torque converter adds another 1.75 ratio at start and this ratio
goes away at about 1000 rpm. So the overall ratio in 1st gear will be 1.76
x 1.75 = 3.08 for 1st gear.
If you car is a lite weight under 3000 lbs, then a 4.11:1 differential gear
adds 4.11 x 3.08 = 12.65:1 overall drive ratio in 1st gear.
If you used a lock up torque converter or no torque converter at all then
your overall ratio would be 1.76 x 4.11 = 7.27:1. This may not be enough to
keep your motor ampere down during acceleration.
The minimum I need for my EV in first gear is about 19.4:1 to keep my motor
ampere below 400 amps while acceleration and then drive in 2nd gear which is
13.5:1 to keep the motor ampere at about 100 amps.
If you vehicle is light enough, (below 3000 lbs or so) you may get by with a
2 speed powerglide with a 1.75:1 torque converter. Or Below 2000 lbs
without a torque converter.
I therefore going to opt for a TCI Street GM TH-350 3-speed that has a
2.75:1 1st gear with a control system that can lock up the torque converter
at a slow start and than allow some slippage to engage the 1.75:1 torque
converter ratio for a faster acceleration.
This will give me a 1.75 x 2.75 x 5.57 (axle ratio) = 26.8:1 overall ratio
in 1st gear.
At about 500 rpm the torque converter locks up giving a 2.75 x 5.57 = 15.31
in 1st gear.
Leaving the torque converter unlock up to 1000 rpm, but shifting to 2nd
before the torque converter locks up will give about 1.75 x 1.75 x 5.57 =
17.02 in 2nd gear.
If a person starts out in final gear, then 1.75 x 1.00 x 5.57 = 9.46:1
overall ratio in Drive.
The Powerglide would be great for me, if it would have a 1st gear ratio of
2.75:1. You can install a front pump drive which eliminates the torque
converter and install a manual valve body that eliminates the need for
external valving of line pressure when using a straight pump drive.
The fully manual value body allows to operate by connecting a clutch like
pedal to the stock transmission détente linkage. Depress the pedal, place
the transmission in gear, ease out the pedal and the line pressure is
released. You therefore will have no slippage or sudden starts.
For me, I will need a higher overall ratio to operated by EV.
If you want to talk to TCI tech. about there products, there phone no. is
1-662-224-8972.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "James McKethen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:20 PM
Subject: transmissions
>
>
> I am thinking of using a powerglide transmission. Has anyone successfully
> used this transmission?
>
> James
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 03:51:55PM -0700, Bill Dennis wrote:
>
> Has anyone looked into the possibility of hooking a high-voltage switch or
> contactor or breaker up to the brake pedal so that under normal
> circumstances, when you were just applying the brake in daily use, nothing
> would get disconnected--but if you really pressed hard or fast on the pedal,
> the switch would open? Is such a thing even possible?
Are there any symptoms of a controller "fail full on" condition that can be
easily detected? If there are, then the best system would check for this, and
open the main contactor if the condition is detected.
I was thinking something like throttle < %50, Motor current > x, for longer
then 500ms == probable controller failure, open main contactor and pop a toggle
switch (for manual reset).
I guess the tricky part is figuring out what x should be, getting the data
and actually building this thing.
What do you think?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It seems unsafe to me. If you're driving at 45-50 mph and determine the
controller has failed full-on, pushing the brakes all the way to the
floor will lock the wheels and could cause you to lose control of the
vehicle. The period before the contactor disengages could be pushing
the brakes against the full-on motor, which could result in further damage.
It could make sense to open the contactor whenever the brakes are
pressed, but that might wear the contactor to keep engaging/disengaging
like that.
Danny
Bill Dennis wrote:
A few weeks ago, there was a discussion here about where to put the
emergency disconnect, for example in the case of controller failure in
full-on mode. Someone suggested on the clutch, but someone else said that
the break pedal makes more sense, since that's what you'd naturally stomp on
in case of emergency.
Has anyone looked into the possibility of hooking a high-voltage switch or
contactor or breaker up to the brake pedal so that under normal
circumstances, when you were just applying the brake in daily use, nothing
would get disconnected--but if you really pressed hard or fast on the pedal,
the switch would open? Is such a thing even possible?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Here's one of those terrible ASCII schematics. View it with a
> fixed width font or it will look like gibberish.
Hmm; it still looked like gibberish on my computer. I think I allowed
the lines to get too long. Here it is again with shorter lines.
S1 ____ S2 _ _ _
120vac___/__| |___/_____________________| | | | L1
black | | | | | | |
|GFCI| | _|_ C1 | O O
| | | ___ ___ | high / low J2
ground______| | _|_ |__/| |\__| O _____ F1 _
green _|_ | | Fan / \ | \_o_/ S3 |__|AC +|__/\ __|+|
/// | | \___/ | _|_ J1 | | \/ | |
| | | | /// D1 | | M1__ | |
120vac______| |_______|____|___________________|AC -|__/ \__|-|
white |____| |_____| \__/ |_|
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 3:16 PM -0800 2/24/06, Nick Austin wrote:
Are there any symptoms of a controller "fail full on" condition that can be
easily detected? If there are, then the best system would check for this, and
open the main contactor if the condition is detected.
I was thinking something like throttle < %50, Motor current > x, for longer
then 500ms == probable controller failure, open main contactor and
pop a toggle
switch (for manual reset).
I guess the tricky part is figuring out what x should be, getting the data
and actually building this thing.
Hi Nick,
Those were my thoughts exactly. Except that it would also be nice to
detect a failure before the user released full throttle.
The Zilla and Hairball combination do something very similar to this.
If motor current is more than about 30 amps, and the motor voltage
has not been at zero in the last 100ms, then the Hairball drops the
main contactor. The Zilla quickly pulses off once every millisecond
when at "full duty cycle" in order to allow this check to work.
Fortunately, I've never heard of a power system failure causing this
trip. There were some adjustments I had tuned a bit too close that
would cause false trips. Could it have happened farther away than
Australia? I think not. Fortunately Mark Fowler was patient and my
tech just happened to be down under so he could make a house call. :)
In addition if the Zilla fails to communicate for a short time then
the Hairball also drops the main, this since it is hard to know if
the Zilla brains would survive a major power section failure.
So yes I think it's a good idea and that's why I put it in the Zilla
series of controllers.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting resumes. Please see:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes you can do this. However the amount of electricity you put into the
motor to drive the wheels and generator will be much more than the
electricity you get out generator itself. So it does not pay for itself and
turns out to be a waste of effort.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Todd
Sent: February 24, 2006 2:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Can a generator be fitted on an EV, powered by the drivetrain?
Is it at all possible for a generator or alternator to run off the motion of
the vehicle itself? I am VERY new to Electric Vehicles, and I have always
been curious about this.
_________________________________________________________________
Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello John,
I am running a accessory drive off the pilot shaft of the motor, (the front
shaft). The accessory drive includes a alternator-inverter unit that can
produce 13.5 to 16 volts DC at 145 amps and 120 volts AC 60 hz at 7000 watts
at the same time. I can drive all my heating systems and air condition
units with this unit.
I use to have a industrial Honeywell DC to DC unit that ran all the
accessories off the main battery pack. In my EV this became very dangerous
in the winter time coming down a steep 3 mile long hill that is snow pack.
There was not enough regen braking action and the car would get up to 80 mph
going down a slick hill.
Now, when coming down this hill, I have three heater units running, all the
lights running, power steering, power brakes, fans and pump running which
now slows the car down and generating all the power to drive these units,
while the motor amperes and battery amps read ZERO !!!
This is what I call mechanical REGEN.
Remember, that you cannot made a DC current go both ways at the same exact
time. You cannot charge a battery which is the flow of current from the
negative plates to the positive plates while using power from the battery
which is a flow from the positive plates to the negative plates. You can do
only one or the other.
If you have a alternator in a car, the alternator provides power to all the
accessories, while the battery is being charge. If the alternator goes off
line, than the battery provides the power.
When you start up a ICE vehicle, the battery is only used to start the
engine while the alternator is off line at the time. When the engine is
running, then the alternator comes on and charges the battery and runs the
accessories.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Todd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 3:52 PM
Subject: Can a generator be fitted on an EV, powered by the drivetrain?
> Is it at all possible for a generator or alternator to run off the motion
> of
> the vehicle itself? I am VERY new to Electric Vehicles, and I have always
> been curious about this.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just read the EV article in Make magazine and it got me thinking
real hard about doing an EV conversion. There is a picture of a
Datsun with 3 motors installed that was converted by Tom True and Don
Crabtree. What is the advantage of doing this? Is there any sense in
doing cheap redundant motors and batteries RAIM?
New term maybe - R.edundant A.rray of I. independent or inexpensive
M.otors?
Crazy thought but EVs offer the possibility of driving the vehicle
with redundant systems. The thought I have is kind of like RAID or
JBOD (just a bunch of harddrives) for a computer, and doing this to a
car. If a single component were to fail, the vehicle might be able to
continue moving on the balance of the systems that are still
functioning. Obviously, failover mechanisms would have to be baked
into the design.
For example, a 2 wheeled vehicle with balanced batteries, motors and
controllers. One half of the systems could fail and the car could
continue to move although slower and for a shorter distance. If the
car had 4 wheels and separate controllers and batteries, the car could
theoretically take a 75% component failure and still move.
Other possibilities are to failover some of the systems to extend the
range. For example, a motor fails; the battery and controller could
be engaged onto the still working motor.
Another thought is with a quad system, options exist like performance
mode - run all for systems at the same time. Economy mode could run
on half of the systems (front or rear wheels).
I found some DC treadmill motors cheap and in the 1-2.5hp range
depending on input voltage? An example motor I found is rated
[EMAIL PROTECTED] to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and 5 amps, weighs 14lbs with a large
fly-wheel that would probably be removed.
I know this sounds wimpy compared to the Advanced DC or ETek motors
but does this make any sense for an entry level conversion? I know
there are many other design considerations (donor car, batteries,
controller, etc.) but the motor seems like a good place to start a
design.
Also, does anyone have experience with controllers? Is it easier to
control higher voltage or amperage? I would think that higher voltage
has the advantage of permitting smaller gauge wire and maybe better
efficiency when it comes to voltage drops from impedance and
resistance that are inherent in batteries, motors and controller
components.
Thanks for the advice and opinions.
--- End Message ---
