EV Digest 5210
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Trip in Emergency Only
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Brakes .. Vacuum to manual
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: It's the energy density problem (was: Battery charging in only
5minutes)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Battery powered Trains, and hybrids
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Subaru showing of an electric car at the Canadian International A
uto Show in Toronto
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: It's the energy density problem, not!! It's an engineering one
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Brakes .. Vacuum to manual
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Can a generator be fitted on an EV, powered by the drivetrain?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Newbie question: Multiple cheap motors to drive a vehicle
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Small Bad Dumb Charger (was: RE: Big ...)
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Brakes .. Vacuum to manual
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) 35 mph @ 150 amps and 48 volts
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Brakes .. Vacuum to manual
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: EV1 question
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Cutler-Hammer contactor 600V DC 300A on Ebay $99
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Can a generator be fitted on an EV, powered by the drivetrain?
by "Jody Dewey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Brakes .. Vacuum to manual
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Low voltage (96v) AC Conversion update 250206
by "Peter Perkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Small Bad Dumb Charger (was: RE: Big ...)
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: It's the energy density problem, not!! It's an engineering one
by "David C. Navas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Feb 24, 2006, at 2:51 PM, Bill Dennis wrote:
A few weeks ago, there was a discussion here about where to put the
emergency disconnect, for example in the case of controller failure in
full-on mode. Someone suggested on the clutch, but someone else said
that
the break pedal makes more sense, since that's what you'd naturally
stomp on
in case of emergency.
Has anyone looked into the possibility of hooking a high-voltage
switch or
contactor or breaker up to the brake pedal so that under normal
circumstances, when you were just applying the brake in daily use,
nothing
would get disconnected--but if you really pressed hard or fast on the
pedal,
the switch would open? Is such a thing even possible?
Sure. I've been thinking about how to wire up my EV, specifically
about how to drop out the main contactor in case of problems. One
solution was to use the microswitch in your Curtis potbox to detect
when the accelerator pedal is not depressed, and use that to open the
contactor. Lots of "clunk-clunk" noises result, but it should be
safest because the first thing you do in an emergency is take your foot
off the gas.
Another solution is to use the brake light circuit to drop out your
contactor. Still some "clunk-clunk", but not as bad. Takes a bit
longer for you to get your foot off the accelerator and onto the brake
pedal.
I came up with another idea. While looking for something else, I
discovered this product:
<http://www.watsons-streetworks.com/brake_switches.html>
It's a mechanical brake switch that is mounted behind your brake pedal,
and has an arm that is pressed by the descending pedal to sense when
you're pressing the brake. It's intended for racers and hotrods that
might (for whatever reason) not have a conventional brake switch.
My idea is to mount this so that it only triggers if you're pressing
hard on the brake, then use it to drop out your main contactor. That
should pretty much get rid of the nuisance clunks, and will only drop
out your contactor if you're trying really hard to stop the car. It
doesn't detect how fast you've pressed the brake pedal, only how far.
But that should do the trick, I think.
Any comments?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That will not help.
Here is how the vacuum booster works.
There are 2 valves, one where the shaft enters under the dash and one
between the diaphram.
At rest the valve at your feet is closed and the one between the two
parts seperated by the diaphram is open. So the engine pulls vacumm on
the whole thing, both sides of the diaphram and it is balanced. A spring
inside makes sure the pedal stays up and the valves stay this default
way as vacumm varies and bumps are traversed.
Now you press on the pedal and close the valve between the two halfs and
open the one at your foot, Good ole atmospheric pressure now flows in
and pushes on the diaphram and starts to follow your foot. (14psi* area
of diaphram of help) . But you stop advancing your foot and the diaphram
starts to get a mm or 2 ahead of your foot The back valve shuts off and
the one between the diaphram opens equalizing the pressure and it also
stops pushing. Cool
I ran this test and it worked great.
I made a air tight plug in back and put 14psi off of a regulator on it
and disconnected the hose and checkvalve where vacumm is normally
connected. The booster functioned the same. My thought was to recharge
an onboard airtank instead of using a vacuum pump, then I would have air
for tires and such and the compressor would only come on if I happened
to drive well beyond my ev range or forgot to fill tank. If I already
have airbags and a compressor, why double up and have a vacumm pump to?
I also calculated that my paintball tank at 3000psi should last about a
month if regulated down to 14.
but... I havent figures out how to convert the under dash vacuum lines!
The mechanical advantage is not great enogh
Large wheel cylinders or smaller master cylinder will let you increase
force at wheels but the trade off is more stroke
Move the pivot on the pedal can do the same.
Notice that the pedal on some cars is to weak to operate without
booster without an uncofortable side flexing. This is hard to believe,
but check it out. I noticed this only under max braking tests.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the turbo idea can be made to do more work than it consumes if
you use the heat to expand the nitrogen in the air around us to spin a
pressure and volocity staged turbine, instead of just stuffing a fan
into the stream of hot gasses. Maybe the intake of a stock turbo is
tapped and the "bleed air" is piped into the center of the stream after
the turbo and before the next volocity stage. Inject a little bit of
water for a boost.
ok, definitely OT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have seen maglev and linear induction motor typoes, but i wasn't
actaully thinking of that.
I was thinking of the cars would have a motor and one side of the power
transformer would be the inductive coupled rail.
This way I have a speed control on the car, I can push regen energy back
onto my own grid. If I have 100 cars on the loop, they can all have
individual speed and load control. Because of varing number of
passengers, the system effience should be about the same as moving all
cars at same speed reguarless of load and how would we do that anyway,
variable slip per car?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just read in the local paper that Subaru is showing off their R1E concept
car. It is reported to be 120km/h max and 120 km range (I assume you can't
have both) using Manganese Lithium-Iron batteries and having a 15 minute
recharge from a single phase 200v outlet. The battery was reported in the
paper to be the 'size of a bread box'
http://autonet.ca/Autoshows/story.cfm?story=/Autoshows/Toronto/2003/12/22/14
23085.html
<http://autonet.ca/Autoshows/story.cfm?story=/Autoshows/Toronto/2003/12/22/1
423085.html>
Lawrence
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, I believe that if you make the same aero improvements to an ICE
car, you will quickly burn up the engine from overheating. You have to have
enormous airflow through the radiator to cool the engine, and it will add
quite a bit of drag. In an EV, you don't have much heat to dissipate, so can
direct the air around the car rather than through it. This is also one
reason why conversions are much less efficient than a designed EV. Even
with grill block-offs and belly pans, you still have a car that was
originally designed to force air through it rather than slip through the
air.
Dave Davidson
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: It's the energy density problem, not!! It's an engineering one
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 15:42:19 -0700
>Yes, but, the efficiencies you derive from an aero car apply equally to
>gas cars.
I've wondered about this, especially the "equal" part. Someone tell me if
I'm thinking about it correctly:
In an ICE vehicle, you're using about 20% of the energy for motion, the rest
being wasted as heat. In an EV, you're getting around 80% of the energy
used as motion. So, if you make an aero improvement, isn't that mostly
helping the part of the energy used for pushing through the air, and not the
wasted heat part? Therefore, the same aero improvement made to an EV would
have around 4 times the impact of the same improvement made to an ICE.
Or am I thinking about it in my usual upside-down, inside-out,
they-make-idiot-proof-stuff-for-guys-like-you way?
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:09 AM 2/24/2006, you wrote:
Can the diaphram be broken/ punctured to make manual brakes that are
easier to push than just removing the line ?
Why would you want to do this? The brake system is one of the most
important systems on the vehicle - ESPECIALLY after you add all that
battery weight. You need to be able to stop safely. If the gas
version needed power brakes, the conversion needs them even
more. This is easily accomodated with an electric vacuum pump,
switch, and reservoir.
The current draw on the 12V auxiliary battery from this system is
miniscule. Some people don't like the few seconds of occasional
noise from the pump, but which would you rather hear: a little
buzzing, or crunching sheet metal and sirens?
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John,
On Feb 24, 2006, at 2:52 PM, John Todd wrote:
Is it at all possible for a generator or alternator to run off the
motion of the vehicle itself? I am VERY new to Electric Vehicles, and
I have always been curious about this.
This is the famous "generator on a wheel" question that we all hear
sooner or later (usually sooner) when we tell people about our electric
car.
Yes, you can do this, but it doesn't do what you might think (charge
the batteries while you drive down the road). What happens is that the
motion of the car turns into electricity - which slows down the car.
This turns out to be useful when you WANT to slow down the car i.e.
when you step on the brake. Instead of wearing down and heating up
your brake pads, you turn the motion of the car into electricity and
feed it back into the batteries, where you can use it later to
accelerate back up to speed.
And this is what we call "regenerative braking". It's one of the main
reasons that hybrid cars get better gas mileage.
I believe the reason that this question is so popular is because
everyone is used to separate electrical and drive systems in
conventional cars. When they think about the electrical system in an
EV, they subconsciously think the gas engine is still there, moving the
car down the road. Of course, in the EV, the electrical system *is*
the drive system, so there's nothing else keeping the car going when
the generator-on-the-wheel slows down the car.
Hope this helps,
Doug
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am sure there are a number of things to consider:
- a controller that can handle multiple motors
- a controller that can accommodate differential
- the added extra unsprung weight of the motors mounted at the wheels (leads
to poor performance)
Also consider: how often to motors fail? Enough to warrant building a
redundant system? When a motor fails is it a safety issue, that may require
a redundant system? Brakes - yes. Motors - ?
For a project such as an EV conversion, it is important to understand your
goals. Is it new technology such as failover mechanisms or an inexpensive
EV conversion? Once you get clear on your goal and constraints, it will
help to make these decisions much easier.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of ziperle
Sent: February 24, 2006 5:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Newbie question: Multiple cheap motors to drive a vehicle
I just read the EV article in Make magazine and it got me thinking real hard
about doing an EV conversion. There is a picture of a Datsun with 3 motors
installed that was converted by Tom True and Don Crabtree. What is the
advantage of doing this? Is there any sense in doing cheap redundant motors
and batteries RAIM?
New term maybe - R.edundant A.rray of I. independent or inexpensive M.otors?
Crazy thought but EVs offer the possibility of driving the vehicle with
redundant systems. The thought I have is kind of like RAID or JBOD (just a
bunch of harddrives) for a computer, and doing this to a car. If a single
component were to fail, the vehicle might be able to continue moving on the
balance of the systems that are still functioning. Obviously, failover
mechanisms would have to be baked into the design.
For example, a 2 wheeled vehicle with balanced batteries, motors and
controllers. One half of the systems could fail and the car could continue
to move although slower and for a shorter distance. If the car had 4 wheels
and separate controllers and batteries, the car could theoretically take a
75% component failure and still move.
Other possibilities are to failover some of the systems to extend the range.
For example, a motor fails; the battery and controller could be engaged onto
the still working motor.
Another thought is with a quad system, options exist like performance mode -
run all for systems at the same time. Economy mode could run on half of the
systems (front or rear wheels).
I found some DC treadmill motors cheap and in the 1-2.5hp range depending on
input voltage? An example motor I found is rated [EMAIL PROTECTED] to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and 5 amps, weighs 14lbs with a large fly-wheel that would
probably be removed.
I know this sounds wimpy compared to the Advanced DC or ETek motors but does
this make any sense for an entry level conversion? I know there are many
other design considerations (donor car, batteries, controller, etc.) but the
motor seems like a good place to start a design.
Also, does anyone have experience with controllers? Is it easier to control
higher voltage or amperage? I would think that higher voltage has the
advantage of permitting smaller gauge wire and maybe better efficiency when
it comes to voltage drops from impedance and resistance that are inherent in
batteries, motors and controller components.
Thanks for the advice and opinions.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Much clearer, thanks a lot Lee.... looks easy except for the inductor. How can
it be made for a 180 v pack?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: Small Bad Dumb Charger (was: RE: Big ...)
> Lee Hart wrote:
>> Here's one of those terrible ASCII schematics. View it with a
>> fixed width font or it will look like gibberish.
>
> Hmm; it still looked like gibberish on my computer. I think I allowed
> the lines to get too long. Here it is again with shorter lines.
>
> S1 ____ S2 _ _ _
> 120vac___/__| |___/_____________________| | | | L1
> black | | | | | | |
> |GFCI| | _|_ C1 | O O
> | | | ___ ___ | high / low J2
> ground______| | _|_ |__/| |\__| O _____ F1 _
> green _|_ | | Fan / \ | \_o_/ S3 |__|AC +|__/\ __|+|
> /// | | \___/ | _|_ J1 | | \/ | |
> | | | | /// D1 | | M1__ | |
> 120vac______| |_______|____|___________________|AC -|__/ \__|-|
> white |____| |_____| \__/ |_|
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Because someone said it would work.
http://www.evconvert.com/article/larrys-ev
Is is simpler and less expensive. My 2 ton truck does not have power
brakes nor did my VW bus , so why can't a 45 mph Geo Metro have
manual brakes ??
Some of us are trying to drive an EV on a budget.
If it can be made simpler and still be safe at 45 mph why not ????
How much is the pump and controls and fittings that you sell ?
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> At 10:09 AM 2/24/2006, you wrote:
> >Can the diaphram be broken/ punctured to make manual brakes that
are
> >easier to push than just removing the line ?
>
> Why would you want to do this? The brake system is one of the
most
> important systems on the vehicle - ESPECIALLY after you add all
that
> battery weight. You need to be able to stop safely. If the gas
> version needed power brakes, the conversion needs them even
> more. This is easily accomodated with an electric vacuum pump,
> switch, and reservoir.
>
> The current draw on the 12V auxiliary battery from this system is
> miniscule. Some people don't like the few seconds of occasional
> noise from the pump, but which would you rather hear: a little
> buzzing, or crunching sheet metal and sirens?
>
> Mike Brown
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-
1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since
1979
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is for a 4 door Geo in 3 rd gear.... V x A = 7200 Watts ??
Is this in the ballpark or should I be able to do much better.
1 st - 15 mph 2nd 25 mph 3rd 35 mph 4th 45 mph
Will measure 4th and 5th gear amps tomorrow
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The size of the master cylinder and slave cylinder determine how much foot
pedal pressure is required to stop the vehicle. Your 2-ton truck and VW bus
were originally designed to be manual brake systems, and have appropriately
sized master and slave cylinders to stop the vehicle. Your Geo Metro can
have manual brakes, but most likely the current system is designed for power
brakes and the current weight of the vehicle. If the weight of the vehicle
is increased or the system is changed from power to manual you will need to
ensure that the brake system still has adequate stopping power.
I do not think Mike is trying to sell you a pump, but just trying to ensure
that your system is safe. There are a lot of suppliers of vacuum pumps,
Mike at electroauto.com, Victor at metricmind.com and Rod at EVParts.com all
have pumps for sale. If you are patient, you might also pick one up off of
ebay. It might just be easier and safer in the long run to have the vacuum
pump.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of jmygann
Sent: February 24, 2006 8:23 PM
To: Electro Automotive
Subject: Re: Brakes .. Vacuum to manual
Because someone said it would work.
http://www.evconvert.com/article/larrys-ev
Is is simpler and less expensive. My 2 ton truck does not have power brakes
nor did my VW bus , so why can't a 45 mph Geo Metro have manual brakes ??
Some of us are trying to drive an EV on a budget.
If it can be made simpler and still be safe at 45 mph why not ????
How much is the pump and controls and fittings that you sell ?
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> At 10:09 AM 2/24/2006, you wrote:
> >Can the diaphram be broken/ punctured to make manual brakes that
are
> >easier to push than just removing the line ?
>
> Why would you want to do this? The brake system is one of the
most
> important systems on the vehicle - ESPECIALLY after you add all
that
> battery weight. You need to be able to stop safely. If the gas
> version needed power brakes, the conversion needs them even more.
> This is easily accomodated with an electric vacuum pump, switch, and
> reservoir.
>
> The current draw on the 12V auxiliary battery from this system is
> miniscule. Some people don't like the few seconds of occasional noise
> from the pump, but which would you rather hear: a little buzzing, or
> crunching sheet metal and sirens?
>
> Mike Brown
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-
1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since
1979
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EV1's are gone unfortunately, I would imagine we might have heard about it if
one were to sneak through the system. Some of the S-10 electrics GM made with
the EV1 drivetrain were actually sold though and you could find one around.
Some EV1's went to museums, all the good components were removed, they'd just
be gliders and are setup to never be registerable again. I think they filled
the battery boxes in them with cement so they'd sit right.
The ones that were donated to the Universities were for experimental purposes
only, never to be registered again for street use. I've seen the one BYU has in
person at the 2003 NEDRA races in Las Vegas. All they had was the motor and
differential. GM gave them an empty magic controller box and they built their
own guts for it. It was interesting watching it race, it would top out about
half way down the 1/4 mile. They had the passenger seat removed along with that
door panel, it was pretty cool to see all the alluminum work and just how light
weight they were made to be. To recharge their capacitors they had a pack of
Optima Red Tops (why red tops?) they just hooked to and dump charge.
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7593742579&ss
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
Who makes your DC and AC combined alternator? Do you have a part number and
a place to get one? That is exactly what I was looking for.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 6:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Can a generator be fitted on an EV, powered by the
drivetrain?
Hello John,
I am running a accessory drive off the pilot shaft of the motor, (the front
shaft). The accessory drive includes a alternator-inverter unit that can
produce 13.5 to 16 volts DC at 145 amps and 120 volts AC 60 hz at 7000 watts
at the same time. I can drive all my heating systems and air condition
units with this unit.
I use to have a industrial Honeywell DC to DC unit that ran all the
accessories off the main battery pack. In my EV this became very dangerous
in the winter time coming down a steep 3 mile long hill that is snow pack.
There was not enough regen braking action and the car would get up to 80 mph
going down a slick hill.
Now, when coming down this hill, I have three heater units running, all the
lights running, power steering, power brakes, fans and pump running which
now slows the car down and generating all the power to drive these units,
while the motor amperes and battery amps read ZERO !!!
This is what I call mechanical REGEN.
Remember, that you cannot made a DC current go both ways at the same exact
time. You cannot charge a battery which is the flow of current from the
negative plates to the positive plates while using power from the battery
which is a flow from the positive plates to the negative plates. You can do
only one or the other.
If you have a alternator in a car, the alternator provides power to all the
accessories, while the battery is being charge. If the alternator goes off
line, than the battery provides the power.
When you start up a ICE vehicle, the battery is only used to start the
engine while the alternator is off line at the time. When the engine is
running, then the alternator comes on and charges the battery and runs the
accessories.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Todd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 3:52 PM
Subject: Can a generator be fitted on an EV, powered by the drivetrain?
> Is it at all possible for a generator or alternator to run off the motion
> of
> the vehicle itself? I am VERY new to Electric Vehicles, and I have always
> been curious about this.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree....
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The size of the master cylinder and slave cylinder determine how
much foot
> pedal pressure is required to stop the vehicle. Your 2-ton truck
and VW bus
> were originally designed to be manual brake systems, and have
appropriately
> sized master and slave cylinders to stop the vehicle. Your Geo
Metro can
> have manual brakes, but most likely the current system is designed
for power
> brakes and the current weight of the vehicle. If the weight of
the vehicle
> is increased or the system is changed from power to manual you
will need to
> ensure that the brake system still has adequate stopping power.
>
> I do not think Mike is trying to sell you a pump, but just trying
to ensure
> that your system is safe. There are a lot of suppliers of vacuum
pumps,
> Mike at electroauto.com, Victor at metricmind.com and Rod at
EVParts.com all
> have pumps for sale. If you are patient, you might also pick one
up off of
> ebay. It might just be easier and safer in the long run to have
the vacuum
> pump.
>
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of jmygann
> Sent: February 24, 2006 8:23 PM
> To: Electro Automotive
> Subject: Re: Brakes .. Vacuum to manual
>
> Because someone said it would work.
> http://www.evconvert.com/article/larrys-ev
>
> Is is simpler and less expensive. My 2 ton truck does not have
power brakes
> nor did my VW bus , so why can't a 45 mph Geo Metro have manual
brakes ??
>
> Some of us are trying to drive an EV on a budget.
>
> If it can be made simpler and still be safe at 45 mph why not ????
>
> How much is the pump and controls and fittings that you sell ?
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Electro Automotive <ev@>
> wrote:
> >
> > At 10:09 AM 2/24/2006, you wrote:
> > >Can the diaphram be broken/ punctured to make manual brakes that
> are
> > >easier to push than just removing the line ?
> >
> > Why would you want to do this? The brake system is one of the
> most
> > important systems on the vehicle - ESPECIALLY after you add all
> that
> > battery weight. You need to be able to stop safely. If the gas
> > version needed power brakes, the conversion needs them even
more.
> > This is easily accomodated with an electric vacuum pump, switch,
and
> > reservoir.
> >
> > The current draw on the 12V auxiliary battery from this system
is
> > miniscule. Some people don't like the few seconds of occasional
noise
> > from the pump, but which would you rather hear: a little
buzzing, or
> > crunching sheet metal and sirens?
> >
> > Mike Brown
> > Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-
429-
> 1989
> > http://www.electroauto.com electro@
> > Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos *
Since
> 1979
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear List Members.
It works!
The wheels go round! And the right way. Well they do now, after I swaped the
motor connections, and corrected one wiring mistake on the throttle pot!
Initial one mile road test thoughts,
1) Much improved acceleration and start ability.
2) Regeneration! Great, not had that before :)
3) Quieter at crusing speed. Only road/tyre/wind noise now.
Cedric Lynch Li-Ion cell protectors all ok.
Modified Zivan 3kw 25A IUa NG3 onboard charger functioning ok
Home made 6kw 55A offboard charger functioning ok.
Battery heater ok, temp 20C.
Vehicle is now on charge, receiving a CV balancing charge for a few hours,
probably overnight, TS 200ah cells have been stood for 4-5 months. Inter
cell voltage variation <75mv.
28 cells, pack voltage is steady at 117v and current is slowly falling. Less
than 4A now.
A bit more fiddling to do (A project like this is never finished really!),
and some adjustments to AC controller parameters to make.
I'll pass on performance tests asap.
PS
I have a Zapi programming console now, if anyone in the UK ever needs to
borrow one.
Peter
www.solarvan.co.uk
See below for old update and pics/specs
Dear Members
Some of you will know I am doing a low cost, low voltage DC to AC upgrade at
present. (New information and progress report is at the bottom of this mail)
I will soon be running a 96v 450A Zapi 3phase ac controller with regen and a
96v 3phase 12kw con rated induction motor.
The motor and controller cost me £2000 brand new.
I am lucky enough to own a pack of 200Ah TS cells and can report good life
and performance in the 2+ years I have had them.
A few links for interest are here.
http://www.electrofit-zapi.com/hfacinverters.htm
www.solarvan.co.uk
The motor came from Best Motors in Italy.
http://www.bestmotor.it/frameset_ei.html
They do not list AC motors on the site, but do supply them to order and
spec.
Zapi only supply a controller with a motor, as they require matching. That's
why I ended up with an Italian motor as well.
Curtis operate the same policy I think. You will be lucky if they sell you a
controller without a motor.
I went for the Zapi controller as it allowed a higher voltage 96v instead of
the curtis 80v.
A couple of pics of the motor/controller versus my old 120v 400A curtis
stuff are here, as are motor spec drawing, motor torque voltage curves and
Zapi AC controller manual.
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac017.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac021.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/bestmotor.pdf
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac3manual.pdf
www.solarvan.co.uk/MVC-001F.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/MVC-002F.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/MVC-003F.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/MVC-004F.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/MVC-005F.jpg
Hope to get upgrade finished by 010406
New for 04/02/06 are ten more pictures of my current progress.
They are at www.solarvan.co.uk/ac01.jpg to www.solarvan.co.uk/ac10.jpg
inclusive. Just change the number to get the other pictures. They are about
350kb each to give full detail.
My TS Cells are now contained in a false floor battery and insulation layer
cake inside the vehicle. They are securely strapped down with that 12mm
300kg breaking strain nylon packing tape, tensioned and crimped, two straps
per cell to about 100kg each. I have a full set of crimping, tensioning
tools, crimps and miles of tape if anyone wants to borrow it in UK. It was
excellent for securing and compressing cells. Fits perefectly into slots in
TS cells.
Basically the floor is raised about 6 inches now.
It's layered as follows.
1st layer, onto original van metal floor, 25mm Kingspan silvered insulation.
2nd layer, 9mm plywood sheet drilled and bolted through insulation and metal
vehicle floor, drilled and fitted with 12mm strapping before placing in
vehicle.
3rd layer, 28x200ah TS Cells laid out as you see, and securely strapped
down, with white electric blanket heating wire underneath all cells to keep
them warm.
Note, sides also filled with blocks of Kingspan insulation to make a sealed
compartment.
4th layer, sheet of 2mm ultra lightweight compressible foam to seal gaps
between edges and top sheet of thermo insulation, and to provide electrical
insulation between silvered side of thermo insulation and cells. Well you
never know, a loose wire can occur!
5th layer, another sheet of 25mm Kingspan silvered insulation.
6th layer, a sheet of 12mm plywood to provide load flooring, bolted through
layers to vehicle metal body.
7th layer, Carpet! Not yet fitted as you see.
I was happy to sacrifice some load space to allow the secure and insulated
fitting of the most expensive item, the battery pack!
The under cell mains powered heating is thermostat controlled, and shuts off
when cells reach 25C.
I have left provision for forced air ventilation through cells if required,
but I will monitor pack temp and see if I actually need to fit this!
The ambient temp is quite low here in Northern England, I don't envisage
overheating will be a major problem.
The underseat electronics compartment is coming along well. It's still wires
all over the place at the moment, but I'm pretty pleased with progress.
The AC motor is now in situ underneath the vehicle on a very secure mild
steel mounting as you can see.
My ETA of 01/04/06 looks quite acheivable at present.
I will update my website when it's finally done.
Regards
Peter Perkins.
Chilly in the UK!
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 24/02/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
where can I get more information about a bonn
inductor?
any pictures?
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Here's one of those terrible ASCII schematics.
> View it with a
> > fixed width font or it will look like gibberish.
>
> Hmm; it still looked like gibberish on my computer.
> I think I allowed
> the lines to get too long. Here it is again with
> shorter lines.
>
> S1 ____ S2 _ _ _
> 120vac___/__| |___/_____________________| | | |
> L1
> black | | | | | | |
> |GFCI| | _|_ C1 | O O
> | | | ___ ___ | high /
> low J2
> ground______| | _|_ |__/| |\__| O
> _____ F1 _
> green _|_ | | Fan / \ | \_o_/ S3
> |__|AC +|__/\ __|+|
> /// | | \___/ | _|_ J1 |
> | \/ | |
> | | | | /// D1 |
> | M1__ | |
> 120vac______|
> |_______|____|___________________|AC -|__/ \__|-|
> white |____|
> |_____| \__/ |_|
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The energy is stored in the reaction between the lead and the acid. You
can't charge it without the acid (well, you might be able to something
else).
The acid gets used up as the battery discharges. It gets weaker and
weaker until it's almost water by the time the battery is fuly discharged.
However, you CAN charge the battery and then remove the acid and
ship/store the battery dry. Many batteries are still sold this way. I
bought a motorcycle battery recently that came as a dry battery and a
bottle of acid. Poor in the acid and presto, charged battery ready to go
(well mostly charged).
Then again, IIRC there are problems with storing a dry battery. I seem to
remember reading that Oxygen in the air can react with the lead plates and
damage them.
Cheers, Pete.
> Bill / Danny
>
> Regrding your mails. Is the energy stored in the lead ? i.e could you
> charge up the battery dry, then add the electrolyte afterwards ?
>
> alan
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 4:07 PM
> Subject: RE: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
>
>
>> A couple of years ago, a company called Metallic Power was working on
>> Zinc-Air fuel cells that looked promising. But then they went out of
>> business. A couple other companies are still working on them, but I
>> don't
>> know the status. With their Zinc-Air system, you fed it in solid
>> pellets,
>> which turned into liquid, if I remember, after use. You saved the
>> liquid
> in
>> a tank, then you could either regen it back into pellets overnight by
>> supplying electricity, or you could drain the liquid and add more
>> pellets.
>> So it could be recharged either like a battery, or like a fuel cell.
>>
>> I think maybe PowerZinc and Electric Fuel are two other companies
>> working
> on
>> Zinc-Air technology for vehicles.
>>
>> Bill Dennis
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Danny Miller
>> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:55 PM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
>>
>> As a side note, a device which converts replaceable chemical energy
>> directly to electrical energy, whether solid, liquid, or gas is a fuel
>> cell, not a battery. Hydrogen fuel cell is only one type, though it's
>> the only type. If you're tied to rechanging the device with
>> electricity, it's a battery, if you can feed in additional energy from a
>> tank indefinitely, it's a fuel cell.
>>
>> If such a thing were possible, you probably wouldn't just flush the
>> battery (fuel cell) at a charging station. You'd carry around a 10 gal
>> tank of fresh liquid and a 10 gal tank of spent waste liquid (assuming
>> it is unsafe to simply exhaust like hydrogen->H20). The cell would be
>> designed with an inlet and outlet and constantly replenish the liquid as
>> needed until the fresh liquid in the tank gets used up. You'd refill
>> the tank and dump the old stuff for recycling/recharging.
>>
>> But, as we've said, the batteries I'm familiar with get their energy
>> from the solid plates rather than the electrolyte. It is probably
>> possible to get chemical energy from for example lead pellets or
>> lead-bearing paste, something that could be renewed on the fly, and thus
>> make a chemical fuel cell with a "fillup" tank and a tank of waste which
>> can be electrically recharged back into fresh fuel again. I know of no
>> promising possibilities standing out in this field though.
>>
>> Danny
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>> ><<<Hmmm?? Doesn't the electrolyte in the Nicad battery do the chemical
>> >thing, rather than the plates? I noticed in looking at blown up Nicads
> that
>> >the plates were squeeky clean, they don't seem to change themselves as
>> a
>> >battery charges-discharges. Maybe I missed something or you COULD just
>> drain
>> >and dump fresh electrlyte in and go on yur way?You Chemistry geeks?>>>
>> >
>> >No, Bob, I think it's the opposite - the electrolyte in NiCd *isn't*
>> involved in
>> >the reaction, which is why you can't measure the charge by testing it
>> but
>> can
>> >run one when it's frozen (although I've never seen data for that).
>> >
>> >The Vanadium Redox battery is the only one I've read about whose
>> electrolyte
>> >*is* the energy reactant, but it's still better suited to stationary
>> systems
>> >due to energy density (haven't seen mention of power density...a Redox
>> >dragster?).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >In my opinion, on the grand scale of things, we have a
> >pricing issue. We're a factor of 2-4 for weight and volume
> >, and more than a factor of 50 for price. I will be
> >interested to see what A123 sells their DeWalt replacement
> >packs for.
>
> No thanks as the parallel problems are too large,
> I'll wait for the Kokam's or other large amphr cells!!
I am saying I will be interested only from a perspective of pricing.
As for the rest of it....
You're right, of course -- I did start my numbers off by saying
"apart from purpose built" :) The numbers are close for
volume and weight -- enough that changes to the car can put one
within reach. But I have yet to see prices on lithium get to where
they need to be. Sure, we could pay $40k for a pack and make one
of the most expensive conversions out there. After I destroy the
first pack, maybe I'm left with the the only six figure Saturn out
there. Or, maybe I succeed in burning down my house in the process.
Hard to say :) I'm not in a hurry to burn through six figures to
find out.
I think this exercise began in an attempt to show how batteries
were so far from gasoline that it didn't matter. I don't think
that's necessarily true. It's a stretch, but it's possible --
if costs can come down the last order of magnitude or so.
That's the one area I'd like to see some movement on.
-Dave
--- End Message ---
