EV Digest 5228
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Three phase 400Hz motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Charging outlet - what is common?
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Off-the-shelf multiple battery voltage display sought
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: How simply can battery voltage monitors be made?
by kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Transformer cores
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Off-the-shelf multiple battery voltage display sought
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Off-the-shelf multiple battery voltage display sought
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: The Names have been Changed to Protect the Innocent!
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: How simply can battery voltage monitors be made?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Transformer cores
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Off-the-shelf multiple battery voltage display sought
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
There is no GFCI inside the PFC chargers because we could not find a dual
voltage GFCI during design.
Interesting. The Dolphin has a built in GFCI, and it seems to work for
both 120 and 240 volt charging.
Would you like the part number on it? It looks to be real, and not a
one-off product.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Incredible - 2x v and a, but 4x $$.
But a quick google found this
http://doityourself.com/store/u587907.htm
50A240V Gf Circ Breaker for 120.29
It's not in line but a breaker for your main box, but you can install a
subpanel...
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
> On a search tonight, I located a 20 Amp dual voltage inline GFCI at
> http://www.trci.net/products/shock_shield/pdf/25000.pdf
> Cost is listed as $55.67 at
> http://www.trcelectrical.com/search.php?byItemNumber=25000
>
> There is a 40 amp version described at
> http://www.trci.net/products/hd_pro/pdf/24130.pdf that would be appropriate
> for a PFC-30 or PFC-40. Cost is listed as $214.53 at
> http://www.trcelectrical.com/search.php?byItemNumber=24130
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Arlint wrote:
> ...200V 400Hz motor... 7/8 hp... 5500 rpm.
>
> 1. Since that is the continuous power, what should be approximately
> the peak rating?
That's determined by its basic efficiency, and cooling system. Suppose
it's 80% efficient; then 7/8hp output means (7/8)/0.8 = 1.093hp or 816
watts input. 20% of this is loss, so it's making 163 watts of heat. If
it can run at this horsepower continuous-duty, it's cooling system can
only handle 163 watts.
When you increse the horsepower, the efficiency stay (roughly) the same.
So double the hp makes double the heat. How long you can run at this
higher hp is determined by how long this extra heat takes to raise the
temperature to the critical level for some component in the motor
insulation, bearings, magnets, etc.).
A really heavy motor can stand the overload for longer. A heavy forklift
motor can run at double power for 30-60 minutes before it finally
overheats. A lightweight motor heats up faster. Your aircraft motor is
probably designed to be light, not efficient; so you might only get 5-10
minutes at double the hp.
Of course, you can improve the cooling to greatly affect this.
> 2. How many poles? I got 14, but I might be wrong. (200V*400Hz)/14poles
> = 5714 rpm. The 5500 rpm allows for slip. I think.
No; voltage has no effect in computing the poles. Poles = Hz x 120 / RPM
= 400hz x 120 / 5500rpm = 8.73 poles, so this is probably an 8-pole
motor. With 8 poles, its synchronous speed would be 6000 rpm.
But 5500/6000 is 0.917, or 8.3% slip. Normal slip is 4%, so this is a
HIGH SLIP motor, which means low efficiency and a low operating duty
cycle. If the numbers you posted are right, I have serious doubts it is
a continuous-duty motor.
> 3. If I raise the voltage and gear the motor down, I should be able
> to run with the same HP, but with lower current. What is the
> limiting factor on applying more voltage to an AC motor?
At the same frequency and rpm, you can't apply more than about 20% more
voltage before the iron will saturate. When this happens, current goes
way up and the motor will melt down in a hurry!
But you can raise the voltage proportional to frequency. For example,
400v at 800hz (and 11,500 rpm) will be fine. It will draw roughly the
same current and produce the same torque as it did at 200v 400hz. But
notice this is double the horsepower, due to doubling the rpm.
In general, you have to keep the voltage/frequency ratio constant. You
can lower this ratio at lighter loads (to improve efficiency and power
factor), but you can't raise it without rewinding the motor.
> 4. Does anyone make a inexpensive (non aircraft) 400HZ 3 phase motor
> that could be used for this application.
400hz power is almost exclusively used in aircraft-related applications,
where they care more about weight than cost.
Normal vehicle alternators are also high-cycle motors, but they are
similarly designed for light weight. Also, they are designed for low
cost, making the efficiency even worse.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
Incredible - 2x v and a, but 4x $$.
yep and if we made Rich cram it in the green box , well ... I'm glad he left
that up to us , put in on your self the way you like it and where .
But a quick google found this
http://doityourself.com/store/u587907.htm
50A240V Gf Circ Breaker for 120.29
It's not in line but a breaker for your main box, but you can install a
subpanel...
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
On a search tonight, I located a 20 Amp dual voltage inline GFCI at
http://www.trci.net/products/shock_shield/pdf/25000.pdf
Cost is listed as $55.67 at
http://www.trcelectrical.com/search.php?byItemNumber=25000
There is a 40 amp version described at
http://www.trci.net/products/hd_pro/pdf/24130.pdf that would be
appropriate
for a PFC-30 or PFC-40. Cost is listed as $214.53 at
http://www.trcelectrical.com/search.php?byItemNumber=24130
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It may be a paradigm shift is all that's needed.
I personally prefer to back into my parking spaces, then I can pull ahead to
get out. For some reason I feel that this is safer and more convenient. Mainly
because when parking I'm already in traffic and can fully assess my
surroundings, then when leaving I'm not blindly backing into traffic. I live on
a 55mph road on a bend. I don't want to back into the road, stop, shift, and
then go, only to find some asshole coming around the bend at 75mph with 2
inches of snow on the ground.
2 years ago I had a drunk leave the road, cross my front lawn and T-Bone my
Silverado as it was sitting in my driveway. His Corvette pushed my Ext-Cab
truck 18 inches sideways. Care to guess which vehicle faired better? Hint, I'm
still driving the Silverado. We don't know how, but he lived.
So for me obviously, the charge port will be more advantageous in the back.
Stay Charged!
Hump
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Charging outlet - what is common?
I use a 240V dryer outlet enclosed in a waterproof case with a snap lid
closure. I plug the vehicle in from the back. One the next project I will
take Jeff's advice and put the plug in at the front.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: February 27, 2006 10:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Charging outlet - what is common?
What type of charging outlet do you have or is most used and where to get it
best?
I consider an indoor and one outdoor outlet, most likely a 30A 240V type.
Is a dryer type outlet common?
Which type or where to get a waterproof version for outdoor?
How are experiences between this outlet and an AVCON?
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 8:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: First week's impression of my conversion.
Hello Jeff,
I also plug my EV in the back, but I have a recepticle on the wall at the
back of the garage, plus one just outside on the wall of the garage and
another one on a power post at the end of the driveway. They are all on the
same 50 amp circuit breaker using three 125/250 50 amp 4 wire recepticles.
If you just have one recepticle in the front, just go down to Home Depot and
purchase the surface mounted wireway made by Wiremold. You remove the power
recepticle up to 50 amp type and install a Wiremold extension box over the
existing outlet box. This allows you to run a Wiremold raceway on the
surface to the back of the parking area or garage. Install a large surface
box for your power recepticle.
If its not a enclose garage, but a cover parking space, then you can install
a cast aluminum extension box over the existing outlet junction box and run
conduit with watertight box connectors to a surface mounted cast aluminum
recepticle box. You can also gets these at Home Depot made by the Bell
Electrical company.
You can have as many 30 to 50 amps power recepticles on the circuit as long
as you have just one circuit breaker size for that recepticle and wire or
just blank off the front recepticle with a blank plate and reused the
recepticle in the back if it's a 30 to 50 amp type.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 5:50 PM
Subject: First week's impression of my conversion.
> Well, I have driven to work and errands mostly with my converted
> 300zx, about 101 miles so far.
> There is so much that still needs to be done, but it has been fun.
>
> but, observations
> My EV mileage sucks: I am using mapquest to determine miles since
> odometer is broken and I have put the emeter on kWh so I can say that
> I am getting 425wh/mile. ack, cough. Although it seems to coast and
> coast, that is way high and ther must be something dragging.
>
> Wireing an EV for having the plug in back wasn't very bright. I had
> planned to put a cord real thru the old filler location, but,
> honestly, how many times do I back into the parking stall? Having it
> in back means running wire from front of car to charger in back, then
> an extension cord past the front of car bac to plug in front, doh!.
>
> a Link1000 works, but a link 10 is way better for 3 reasons. It has a
> way of scaleing so the decimal looks right, it can go to 1000amps with
> a 1000amp 100mv shunt and display correctly and it has rs232.
>
> Not having an alternator, or a dc-dc and keeping the aux battery
> charged is a pain. Plus the aux battery is also an AGM and that means
> it needs a bloody regulator or a chair next to the car so I can watch the
voltmeter.
>
> 5 times I have thought I was chargeing and I wasn't
> 2 popped breakers.
> 1 plug in and walk away, but switch is off (duh, leaves handprint on
> forehead)
> 1 plug in without checking current controll knob, Have to manually
> turn charger down near end of charge until I upgrade the charger.
> Gotta remember to crank it back up!
> And today, when a reg got wet and told the charge to go into equalize
> mode. let me see .1 amp * 300V is 30watts, i need 3,400 to get home,
> that is 113 hours! Unplugged communication and started chargeing at
> 5.5 amps and went into shop. Realized that that means reg is in eq
> mode and charger isn't and ran back to pull the regs fuse, Yes the
> heat sink was hot!
>
> The wetherman is 1/2 wrong.
> I didn't waterproof under the hood and water dripped onto a regulator
> and "damaged" it. I didn't want the pack to sit too long before it got
> a proper charge and kind of rushed the regulator installation. I need
> to ask the list for some ideas on how to achieve waterproof EV. It is
> raining today and my drive home had me worrying. I have EXIDE
> Orbitals and have been looking thru album but havent found an example
> of orbitals under the hood with reg's.
> When I plug in an external load, does it do all the bypassing? If
> this is the case, I could put them in an enclosure and put the loads
> external. I look at the circuit and it doesn't seem like that is
> possible, the thermister is under the on-board heatsink looks like it
> is still the basis of control.
>
> options are
>
> remote mount all the regs in a drip-proof box and put a fan and a
> filter on it
>
> remove batteries and make a box, then fan, and filter. with regs on
> top of each battery.
>
> totally seal off engine compartment and have one big fan and filter to
> cool motor and regs. Make it like a trunk.
>
> make a top box, a thin box with holes in the bottom for the posts. al
> the cables and regs are in this and a fan keeps them from getting too hot.
>
> what am I missing?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edward Ang wrote:
> How about this circuit below? [snip]
Yes, this is a variant of my "batt-bridge" circuit. It's a good way to
indicate the *relative* differences between batteries (which in most
cases is all you need to know).
The simplest version is:
Pack+______________
|
>
red > R1
LED >
___|/|___|
| |\| _|_
Center___| _\_/_ green
tap | | LED
|___|\|___|
|/| |
red >
LED > R2
>
Pack-______________|
This deceptively simple circuit lights the green LED whenever pack power
is available, and one of the red LEDs if the voltage of *any* battery is
about 1 volt different than the rest.
For example, while you are driving, the first cell that goes dead drops
rapidly under load from 2v to 1v. This lowers its half-pack voltage by
1v. If it's in the upper half, the upper red LED lights. If it's in the
lower half, the lower red LED lights.
While charging, the first battery that goes into overcharge has a rapid
rise in its voltage. When it is 1v high (like 15v when the rest are 14v,
this also lights oneo of the red LEDs.
Use high-brightness red LEDs, and a normal-brightness green LED. R1 and
R2 should be chosen for about 10-20ma with your pack voltage, and both
must be identical values (use 1% resistors). With a 144v pack and 14.4ma
for example, R1+R2 = 144v/0.0144a = 10k, or 5k each. These are power
resistors; each one dissipates P = I^2 x R = (0.0144)^2 x 5000 = 1 watt,
so use at least 2 watt resistors.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Here's a very simple indicator...
>
> 180 ohm red zener
> resistor LED diode
> (+12v)-----/\/\-----|>|-----|<|-----(-12v)
> ^ ^
> longer lead__| |__banded end
>
> A red LED barely glows at about 1.5v at 1ma, and is brightly lit at 2.3v
> at 20ma. So for a 10.5v threshold, use a 10.5v - 1.5v = 9v zener; for
> example, a 1N5239 is a 9.1v zener diode. Pick the resistor to limit the
> maximum current to set the maximum brightness; for 20ma at 15v, R = V/I
(15v-9.1v-2.3v)/0.02a = 180 ohms
Thanks for the confirmation of the correct calculation, Lee. At the risk of
gushing, let me say that the fact that even I could detect a flaw in
the formula originally posted is a tribute to the clarity with which you
described the function of the circuit. I really appreciate being walked
through this stuff - my electronic "dumb meter" has barely left the peg at this
point and it's incredibly helpful to have it explained clearly enough
that I can understand how it actually works. I really appreciate your ongoing
contributions to this forum and my personal education!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
Even if voltage tenfolds you still can use electolytics *provided*
they can handle ripple current and rated for highest (+ some) voltage
they will see.
Ripple current is another point against electrolytics in this circuit.
Electrolytics have a high internal resistance compared to their
That's why I specifically stressed above : *provided* they can handle
ripple current.
Finally, film capacitors typically have a peak voltage rating far above
their AC voltage rating. Most parts used on the AC line get UL listed,
and UL requires that a 120vac rated part can withstand 1250v.
Same as above: I said "rated for highest +some voltage.
So if 120VAC rated cap must withstand 1250V, well, be it,
this is what means rated for the job. I wasn't implying
that DC caps are not suitable because it is practically
difficult/expensive to find/buy such caps for particular guy.
You seem to imply that DC caps cannot be used in this
circuit even in theory just because the voltage is too high,
and I found this statement inaccurate.
Find *electrically suitable* (yes, may be big,
bulky, expensive, but this wasn't the point) electrolytic
caps for this circuit and it will work just fine.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe we should make it clear that the best GFCI is a 50 amp Hot tub unit. it
has the higher but still safe ground current cut off.
Also doing the split 120 to get 240 is going to violate the ground current
requirements limits of any GFCI.
This is a neat trick but as a manufacturer... I clearly don't recomend it
for saftey issues.
In Fact I won't do it even in tight circumstances. I just won't settle for
that level of hacking safley.
I'll just go get the right cables and find the right branch circuit.
Take it from Madman... If I don't do it... it's hairier than it looks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 4:06 AM
Subject: Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
> There is no GFCI inside the PFC chargers because we could not find a dual
> voltage GFCI during design.
>
> If you wanted proper protection it was appropriate to purchase TWO inline
> GFCI adapters.
> One for 120 VAC and one for 240 VAC and use the one appropriate for the
> power source.
>
> On a search tonight, I located a 20 Amp dual voltage inline GFCI at
> http://www.trci.net/products/shock_shield/pdf/25000.pdf
> Cost is listed as $55.67 at
> http://www.trcelectrical.com/search.php?byItemNumber=25000
>
> There is a 40 amp version described at
> http://www.trci.net/products/hd_pro/pdf/24130.pdf that would be
appropriate
> for a PFC-30 or PFC-40. Cost is listed as $214.53 at
> http://www.trcelectrical.com/search.php?byItemNumber=24130
>
> A 60 amp version is described at
> http://www.trci.net/products/hd_pro/pdf/24520.pdf that would be
appropriate
> for a PFC-50. There is no dual voltage listed therefore two devices would
be
> needed for protection at both 120 VAC and 240 VAC. Cost is listed as
$424.55
> at http://www.trcelectrical.com/search.php?byItemNumber=24520
>
> I did not find distributor information for these devices.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 2:53 PM
> Subject: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
>
>
> >
> > On Mar 2, 2006, at 9:29 AM, Rush wrote:
> >
> > > Also somebody, Nick Viera I think, put up a web site that had all the
> > > NEMA plugs and specs. I thought I had it book marked, but haven't been
> > > able to find it. He has also made a nice schematic of his modular
> > > plugs
> > > http://go.driveev.com/jeepev/convpgs/charger.php, which I plan to
> > > copy...
> >
> > Looks nice. I'm pondering the same thing at the moment.
> >
> > I have a PFC-20 and want to be able to use it safely on either 120v or
> > 240v. I know that there was a lot of discussion recently about GFCI
> > for the Manzanita Micro PFC chargers, but sadly, I don't think there
> > was ever a consensus on the best solution. So I'm reopening the
> > discussion again - sorry about that.
> >
> > I haven't been able to find a dual-voltage GFCI (does anyone know of
> > one?), so I need two of them. One solution is to put two GFCI male
> > plugins inside the vehicle and wire them both to the charger. This
> > makes it necessary to prevent power being present on the unused pins,
> > so there would need to be safety interlocks and/or relays that
> > disconnect the unused outlet.
> >
> > Another solution that just occurred to me would be two inline
> > waterproof GFCIs. Add them to Nick's adapters. Plus another one for
> > L6-30 outlets (the long extension cord doesn't have a GFCI in it).
> >
> > So is this a stupid idea, or a waste of time? Should I just build the
> > dual outlets and interlocks? Or not worry about GFCI?
> >
> > >
> > > Rush
> > >
> > > Tucson AZ
> > > www.ironandwood.org
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Doug Weathers
> > Bend, OR, USA
> > <http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I was thinking of using some odd ribbon cable I picked up somewhere.
It's basically a collection of twisted pairs that are then enclosed in a
clear plastic covering.
The twists aught to provide some noise supression and just to add to the
already double insulation, I was going to run it through some of that
plastic wiring loom covering.
> Hi Peter, will you do anything for isolation?
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: March 2, 2006 1:13 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Off-the-shelf multiple battery voltage display sought
>
> My goodness, you folks sure are coming up with complicated solutions to a
> simple problem.
>
> Why not just use a separate LED bar graph display for each battery and
> then
> arrange them together like the previously mentioned graphic equalizer?
>
> It doesn't take much to build a bar graph display with a LM3914. Arrange
> your batteries into roughly 12V modules and montior them using something
> like this:
>
> http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/batmon12.htm
>
> It's not off the shelf, but it's still pretty simple and relatively cheap.
>
> It's what I'm planning on bulding, I'm just trying to find a suitable 10
> segment bar graph display.
>
>
>> The source code will probably take input from a ADC, Send the
>> information to a DSP that is programmed to Do a FFT transform on the
>> signal, and then break the Frequency domain signal into discrete
>> frequencies.
>>
>> Like was said earlier...it is much easlier to design
>>>From the ground up than to reverse engineer and redesign
>> Someone else's system...try it and let me know how it Goes, but I
>> think you're wasting your time with a Spectrum analyzer...especially
>> when they use off the Shelf components designed to do only that one
>> thing As cheap as possible...
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On Behalf Of Andre' Blanchard
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 6:16 PM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: RE: Off-the-shelf multiple battery voltage display sought
>>
>> At 03:38 PM 3/1/2006, you wrote:
>>>Remember that an audio spectrum analyzer uses the Decibel and that is
>>>a
>>
>>>logrythmic base, Not Linear.
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>On
>>
>>>Behalf Of Andre' Blanchard
>>>Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 3:20 PM
>>>To: [email protected]
>>>Subject: Re: Off-the-shelf multiple battery voltage display sought
>>>
>>><< snip >>
>>>
>>>
>>>Is there any open source spectrum analyzer software available?
>>>
>>>Then all you need is a laptop with a mic. input, if you can modify the
>>>software you can display the data anyway you want.
>>>Not the most rugged but it may work for some.
>>>
>>>
>>>__________
>>>Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
>>
>> But if you got the source code you can do anything you want with the
>> data.
>>
>>
>> __________
>> Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk
> at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I wish
> with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
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legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm actually looking for a bar graph that has red, yellow and green all i
the same display.
I suppose I could just use a red display, but I think it would be easier
(and quicker) to scan for just one led that's a different color than the
rest.
I.e. a weak battery will drop into yellow/red while all the rest are still
in the green.
> <<<It doesn't take much to build a bar graph display with a LM3914.
> Arrange
> your batteries into roughly 12V modules and montior them using something
> like this:
>
> http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/batmon12.htm
>
> It's not off the shelf, but it's still pretty simple and relatively cheap.
>
> It's what I'm planning on bulding, I'm just trying to find a suitable 10
> segment bar graph display.>>>
>
> http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category/345/LED_Displays.html (a
> search
> for bargraph also brings up LM3914) or a more linear one like
> http://www.alltronics.com/images/22L007.jpg ?
>
>
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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--- Begin Message ---
My plan was to run a 240 v 50 amp line, 10 ft from main panel, #8 wire, to a
sub panel which will have a 240v 50 amp GFCI and a 120v 20 amp GFCI breakers
in it. I can then plug either 120 or 240 vac into my plugs and be protected.
Correct?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
> Joe we should make it clear that the best GFCI is a 50 amp Hot tub unit. it
> has the higher but still safe ground current cut off.
>
> Also doing the split 120 to get 240 is going to violate the ground current
> requirements limits of any GFCI.
> This is a neat trick but as a manufacturer... I clearly don't recomend it
> for saftey issues.
>
> In Fact I won't do it even in tight circumstances. I just won't settle for
> that level of hacking safley.
> I'll just go get the right cables and find the right branch circuit.
>
> Take it from Madman... If I don't do it... it's hairier than it looks.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 4:06 AM
> Subject: Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
>
>
>> There is no GFCI inside the PFC chargers because we could not find a dual
>> voltage GFCI during design.
>>
>> If you wanted proper protection it was appropriate to purchase TWO inline
>> GFCI adapters.
>> One for 120 VAC and one for 240 VAC and use the one appropriate for the
>> power source.
>>
>> On a search tonight, I located a 20 Amp dual voltage inline GFCI at
>> http://www.trci.net/products/shock_shield/pdf/25000.pdf
>> Cost is listed as $55.67 at
>> http://www.trcelectrical.com/search.php?byItemNumber=25000
>>
>> There is a 40 amp version described at
>> http://www.trci.net/products/hd_pro/pdf/24130.pdf that would be
> appropriate
>> for a PFC-30 or PFC-40. Cost is listed as $214.53 at
>> http://www.trcelectrical.com/search.php?byItemNumber=24130
>>
>> A 60 amp version is described at
>> http://www.trci.net/products/hd_pro/pdf/24520.pdf that would be
> appropriate
>> for a PFC-50. There is no dual voltage listed therefore two devices would
> be
>> needed for protection at both 120 VAC and 240 VAC. Cost is listed as
> $424.55
>> at http://www.trcelectrical.com/search.php?byItemNumber=24520
>>
>> I did not find distributor information for these devices.
>>
>> Joe Smalley
>> Rural Kitsap County WA
>> Fiesta 48 volts
>> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 2:53 PM
>> Subject: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
>>
>>
>> >
>> > On Mar 2, 2006, at 9:29 AM, Rush wrote:
>> >
>> > > Also somebody, Nick Viera I think, put up a web site that had all the
>> > > NEMA plugs and specs. I thought I had it book marked, but haven't been
>> > > able to find it. He has also made a nice schematic of his modular
>> > > plugs
>> > > http://go.driveev.com/jeepev/convpgs/charger.php, which I plan to
>> > > copy...
>> >
>> > Looks nice. I'm pondering the same thing at the moment.
>> >
>> > I have a PFC-20 and want to be able to use it safely on either 120v or
>> > 240v. I know that there was a lot of discussion recently about GFCI
>> > for the Manzanita Micro PFC chargers, but sadly, I don't think there
>> > was ever a consensus on the best solution. So I'm reopening the
>> > discussion again - sorry about that.
>> >
>> > I haven't been able to find a dual-voltage GFCI (does anyone know of
>> > one?), so I need two of them. One solution is to put two GFCI male
>> > plugins inside the vehicle and wire them both to the charger. This
>> > makes it necessary to prevent power being present on the unused pins,
>> > so there would need to be safety interlocks and/or relays that
>> > disconnect the unused outlet.
>> >
>> > Another solution that just occurred to me would be two inline
>> > waterproof GFCIs. Add them to Nick's adapters. Plus another one for
>> > L6-30 outlets (the long extension cord doesn't have a GFCI in it).
>> >
>> > So is this a stupid idea, or a waste of time? Should I just build the
>> > dual outlets and interlocks? Or not worry about GFCI?
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Rush
>> > >
>> > > Tucson AZ
>> > > www.ironandwood.org
>> > >
>> > >
>> > --
>> > Doug Weathers
>> > Bend, OR, USA
>> > <http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
>> >
>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3 Mar 2006 at 10:09, Rich Rudman wrote:
> it
> has the higher but still safe ground current cut off.
What level is that? I hope it's not 20ma. From what I've read, anything
above 5ma risks heart seizure.
I remain very concerned about the number of PFC chargers out there. They
are unisolated and AFAIK all were built without built in GFI protection.
What percentage are protected by a user-installed 5ma GFI? 80%? 50%? 20%?
5%?
I know nobody likes to think about this, and I've been accused of being an
alarmist. But what is going to happen to the EV movement when some 5 year
old child is electrocuted by a charging EV? I guarantee it will make
newspapers and TV newscasts across the nation. They love that sort of "see
what happens when you rock the boat" story. Before you know it we'll have
legislation limiting or banning homebuilt EVs.
A GFI is the minimum protection. If you aren't using one, you're on
borrowed time. Joe has kindly and sensibly shown us where one is available
at a very reasonable cost, at least for the 20 amp level. Please, if you
use a PFC, make sure you have a working GFI on it at all times.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Rush,
The No. 8 AWG stranded copper wire type THHN or THHW with a temperature
rating of 90 degrees C. has a maximum ampere rating of 48 amps in a cable or
conduit. If you have more than 3 conductors in a cable or conduit, then it
is reduce another 20 percent or to about 38 amps at a maximum voltage drop
of 3 percent. It is 36 amps when in a non-metallic cable form.
The require wire is a No. 6 AWG stranded copper type THHN or THHW with a
ampere rating of 58 amps at 75 C. or ampere rating of 65 amperes at 90 C.
If you have a sub panel that will accept only one 2 pole 50 amp circuit
breaker size panel than the above rated wire will work. If you have more
than one circuit, than you must calculated the demand factor of the total
load the panel may pull from the main panel.
At 80 percent demand on two circuits which is normal for calculation, the 50
amp circuit would be at 40 amps and the 20 amp circuit would be at 16 amps
or total of 46 amps.
The minimum wire size should be rated for 125 percent times 46 amperes or
for 57 amps.
You might go as high as 48 amps on the 50 amp circuit and 18 amps for the 20
amp circuit. This would be a total of 66 amps on the feeder circuit. So
the No. 6 19-stranded copper wire type THHN or THHW rated at 90 degrees C.
will work.
The minimum size wire ampere rating would be 48 amps times 125 percent would
be a wire rated at 60 amps.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
> My plan was to run a 240 v 50 amp line, 10 ft from main panel, #8 wire, to
> a sub panel which will have a 240v 50 amp GFCI and a 120v 20 amp GFCI
> breakers in it. I can then plug either 120 or 240 vac into my plugs and be
> protected. Correct?
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 11:09 AM
> Subject: Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
>
>
> > Joe we should make it clear that the best GFCI is a 50 amp Hot tub unit.
> > it
> > has the higher but still safe ground current cut off.
> >
> > Also doing the split 120 to get 240 is going to violate the ground
> > current
> > requirements limits of any GFCI.
> > This is a neat trick but as a manufacturer... I clearly don't recomend
> > it
> > for saftey issues.
> >
> > In Fact I won't do it even in tight circumstances. I just won't settle
> > for
> > that level of hacking safley.
> > I'll just go get the right cables and find the right branch circuit.
> >
> > Take it from Madman... If I don't do it... it's hairier than it looks.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 4:06 AM
> > Subject: Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
> >
> >
> >> There is no GFCI inside the PFC chargers because we could not find a
> >> dual
> >> voltage GFCI during design.
> >>
> >> If you wanted proper protection it was appropriate to purchase TWO
> >> inline
> >> GFCI adapters.
> >> One for 120 VAC and one for 240 VAC and use the one appropriate for the
> >> power source.
> >>
> >> On a search tonight, I located a 20 Amp dual voltage inline GFCI at
> >> http://www.trci.net/products/shock_shield/pdf/25000.pdf
> >> Cost is listed as $55.67 at
> >> http://www.trcelectrical.com/search.php?byItemNumber=25000
> >>
> >> There is a 40 amp version described at
> >> http://www.trci.net/products/hd_pro/pdf/24130.pdf that would be
> > appropriate
> >> for a PFC-30 or PFC-40. Cost is listed as $214.53 at
> >> http://www.trcelectrical.com/search.php?byItemNumber=24130
> >>
> >> A 60 amp version is described at
> >> http://www.trci.net/products/hd_pro/pdf/24520.pdf that would be
> > appropriate
> >> for a PFC-50. There is no dual voltage listed therefore two devices
> >> would
> > be
> >> needed for protection at both 120 VAC and 240 VAC. Cost is listed as
> > $424.55
> >> at http://www.trcelectrical.com/search.php?byItemNumber=24520
> >>
> >> I did not find distributor information for these devices.
> >>
> >> Joe Smalley
> >> Rural Kitsap County WA
> >> Fiesta 48 volts
> >> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <[email protected]>
> >> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 2:53 PM
> >> Subject: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> > On Mar 2, 2006, at 9:29 AM, Rush wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Also somebody, Nick Viera I think, put up a web site that had all
> >> > > the
> >> > > NEMA plugs and specs. I thought I had it book marked, but haven't
> >> > > been
> >> > > able to find it. He has also made a nice schematic of his modular
> >> > > plugs
> >> > > http://go.driveev.com/jeepev/convpgs/charger.php, which I plan to
> >> > > copy...
> >> >
> >> > Looks nice. I'm pondering the same thing at the moment.
> >> >
> >> > I have a PFC-20 and want to be able to use it safely on either 120v
> >> > or
> >> > 240v. I know that there was a lot of discussion recently about GFCI
> >> > for the Manzanita Micro PFC chargers, but sadly, I don't think there
> >> > was ever a consensus on the best solution. So I'm reopening the
> >> > discussion again - sorry about that.
> >> >
> >> > I haven't been able to find a dual-voltage GFCI (does anyone know of
> >> > one?), so I need two of them. One solution is to put two GFCI male
> >> > plugins inside the vehicle and wire them both to the charger. This
> >> > makes it necessary to prevent power being present on the unused pins,
> >> > so there would need to be safety interlocks and/or relays that
> >> > disconnect the unused outlet.
> >> >
> >> > Another solution that just occurred to me would be two inline
> >> > waterproof GFCIs. Add them to Nick's adapters. Plus another one for
> >> > L6-30 outlets (the long extension cord doesn't have a GFCI in it).
> >> >
> >> > So is this a stupid idea, or a waste of time? Should I just build
> >> > the
> >> > dual outlets and interlocks? Or not worry about GFCI?
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > Rush
> >> > >
> >> > > Tucson AZ
> >> > > www.ironandwood.org
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > --
> >> > Doug Weathers
> >> > Bend, OR, USA
> >> > <http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great stuff John! I can't even begin to imagine how much fun that must have
been.
John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello to All,
More videos have been uploaded to the Plasma Boy Racing videos page:
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos.php
See Ya.....John Wayland
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
kluge wrote:
> Thanks for the confirmation of the correct calculation, Lee. At the
> risk of gushing, let me say that the fact that even I could detect a
> flaw in the formula originally posted is a tribute to the clarity with
> which you described the function of the circuit. I really appreciate
> being walked through this stuff
Thanks! I sometimes think I spend too much time writing stuff like this;
most people probably wish I just gave a brief answer and shut up. It's
good to know that the additional detail isn't a waste of time!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> electrolytics can be use... *provided* they can handle ripple current.
Agreed. I just don't think you'll find any that can.
> You seem to imply that DC caps cannot be used in this circuit
> even in theory just because the voltage is too high, and I found
> this statement inaccurate.
The main reason you can't use polarized capacitors is because the
voltage across the capacitors *reverses* every cycle with some loads.
With a 100v battery, the voltage at the junction between the two
capacitors swings from -100v to +200v. So C1 and C2 see +200v to -100v.
The second reason is that the AC current in the capacitors is large
compared to their capacitance -- so large that no normal electrolytic
can do it.
Now, you can modify the circuit so you can use electrolytics. First, you
need to add diodes across the capacitors to prevent their polarity from
reversing (by more than 1 diode drop). Second, the capacitance needs to
be much larger, just to get the needed ripple current rating. This will
make the voltage waveform across the transformer shift become a square
wave, making it become a square wave inverter.
Obviously, you can also replace the SCRs with transistors (bipolar,
darlington, IGBT, or MOSFETs). The timing and strategy used to control
them has a large effect on the circuit performance.
But this is all getting beyond the original question. Students are
invited to study the extensive literature on inverters.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Well, I was thinking of using some odd ribbon cable I picked up
> somewhere. It's basically a collection of twisted pairs that are
> then enclosed in a clear plastic covering... I was going to run
> it through some of that plastic wiring loom covering.
If you are running wires directly from your batteries to your dash,
treat all these wires and everything connected to them as if it were
connected to your full pack voltage. For example, if you have a 120v
pack, treat all this wiring like you would 120vac. That means double
insulation, able to pass a 1000v hipot, nothing that anyone can touch,
etc.
Normal ribbon cable, even with the clear plastic covering, and
automotive wire loom is not suitable for such voltages or usage. But you
*can* get ribbon cable with a thick plastic sleeve, and wire loom that
is UL listed for such voltages.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
