EV Digest 5230
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: How simply can battery voltage monitors be made?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Transformer cores
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) hydraulic lifts for truck bed info requested
by Jacob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 1) Dragtimes voting, 2) Summer plans
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Off-the-shelf multiple battery voltage display sought
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Transformer cores
by Justin Southam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: hydraulic lifts for truck bed info requested
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: How simply can battery voltage monitors be made?
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Alltrax for E-volks Geo Metro
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Transformer cores
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: How simply can battery voltage monitors be made?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Transformer cores
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Coco Loto at Seattle Rod and Custom Show
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Continuation of Coco Loto at Seattle Rod and Custom Show
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Inductive charging
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Inductive charging
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Continuation of Coco Loto at Seattle Rod and Custom Show
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) GFCI for 220V
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: signoff ev
by P C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Inductive charging
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Figured out the Dolphin problem, now need a weird DC-DC....
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Alltrax for E-volks Geo Metro
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) 4wd question when using two motors?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Continuation of Coco Loto at Seattle Rod and Custom Show
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Fisher wrote:
> I still remember seeing the smoke come out from under my Triumph
> TR-3's dash (dear Lucas). However, wouldn't your idea to use 1/4 watt
> resistors on every attachment point to a battery render this system
> fairly safe? Or in-line fuse holders on each line AT the battery.
> I'm thinking in terms of a 48v scooter system.
The usual axial-leaded 1/4 watt carbon film resistors is a ceramic tube,
with metal end caps, and a carbon film on the ceramic tube to form the
actual resistance element. They fail "open" if overloaded, and won't
burn or melt, or set fire to the PC board. Thus they can be considered
as fail "safe". The exception is that if you exceed their voltage rating
(about 250v), they can arc end-to-end; and that CAN set fire to
something!
So, these resistors can be used as a poor-man's fuse under the right
conditions.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> You actually do not need to build all this high-power switching
> stuff if you can find a battery charger that has a switching
> power supply and your battery voltage is somewhere in the range
> of 96V - 156V.
Most "120/240vac" switching supplies rectify and voltage-double the
120vac input, or just rectify a 240vac input. This gives them about
320vdc. This DC voltage powers their switchmode DC/DC converter. So, if
your EV has a roughly 320vdc pack, you're all set.
If you pick a "120vac only" supply that happens to use a simple
rectifier (not a voltage doubler), then its rectifer produces about
160vdc to run their switchmode DC/DC converter. This will work if your
EV has a roughly 160vdc pack.
If you happen to have a 96vdc pack, none of these supplies is likely to
work. It either won't start up at all, or will start but burn up from
excessive input current, or deliver much less than rated output.
That's where the kind of homemade DC/DC's we were describing came in.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You have to think of the PFC's as a piece of equipment that a technician
must install correctly with all the related equipment as you would for a
electrical installation for a building.
You can either start out with a GFCI circuit breaker in a circuit breaker
panel or in the EV after the input plug, so you will have GFCI protection at
any AC input.
To isolated the PFC from the frame of the vehicle, the PFC is place inside a
non-conductor enclosure. A AC magnetic contactor is place right after the
on board chassis mounted GFCI circuit breaker and before the the PFC unit.
This contactor is turn on when the AC input plug is insert, providing power
to the charger and drops out anytime the plug is disconnected which is
control by two control pins that are jumper together completing the AC
control circuit when the plug is push in.
The contactor coil can be control by a ground detection system that will
detect if any battery voltage is tracking to the frame of the vehicle. It
will then shut off the AC input.
Also a isolation DC contactor is install between the battery charger and the
batteries, so the REGEN voltage is not feed back to the charger. There is
also two safety contactors that seperate the battery pack from the main
contactor and controller which isolates the battery charging voltage from
the main contactor and controller.
It is the users responsibility to have GFCI receptacles install in all
garages, parking areas, outside areas, bathrooms, kitchens, utility rooms
and ground level work areas.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
> On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 14:42:33 -0500, "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >On 3 Mar 2006 at 10:09, Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> >> it
> >> has the higher but still safe ground current cut off.
> >
> >What level is that? I hope it's not 20ma. From what I've read, anything
> >above 5ma risks heart seizure.
>
> It's closer to 50 ma for a normal human. There's a reason why we
> neonists use mainly 30 ma high voltage transformers. Even at 50 ma
> there has to be a direct path to the heart, something that is
> difficult to achieve without an invasive electrode being involved.
>
> This is an example of why I despise UL so. The logic went something
> like this: "So some consensus says that 50 ma is LDxx. Just because
> we can, let's divide that by 10 and set the limit at 5ma. It's not
> going to be us who bear the cost." This isn't the only example where
> a UL committee has pulled this sort of logic. The UL and NEC (the two
> are incestuously related) "standards" for neon are beyond stupid. But
> I digress.
>
> 20 ma isn't pleasant but it won't kill anyone other than perhaps a
> very elderly person or someone who has heart problems. Any driver
> that falls into either of these categories probably should not be
> playing with electricity anyway.
>
> I have tested a 5ma GFI with myself, after carefully working up to it
> AND after carefully verifying that the GFI in question actually
> performed as advertised, of course.
>
> Five ma for half a cycle, the interval that a GFI must perform in, is
> felt but not much. More like having someone flip your arm with his
> finger.
>
> I've been bitten a few times by 30 ma neon transformer power. It
> REALLY hurt but it wasn't strong enough to make me piss myself,
> something that a common everyday stun gun does to most people. (One
> of my employees demonstrated that fact when, after I'd given him a
> stun gun, he decided to see what it felt like. He had his legs
> crossed and he did a little shot to his calf. Instant pissed pants!
> And all the muscles in his leg spasmed that didn't release for about a
> half hour.) No damage done other than a pinpoint burn mark where the
> arc formed on my skin. Mostly it makes me hate myself for being dumb
> enough to work around an energized circuit.
> >
> >I remain very concerned about the number of PFC chargers out there. They
> >are unisolated and AFAIK all were built without built in GFI protection.
> >What percentage are protected by a user-installed 5ma GFI? 80%? 50%?
> >20%?
> > 5%?
>
> As far as the public is concerned, there is essentially no risk as
> long as the EV owner has properly grounded his vehicle with the
> charging cord's green wire. With the hood and hatches down there are
> no exposed live parts. The ONLY way there could be a risk is if there
> is a leakage path to the car AND the ground isn't properly made up.
> The only real risk is to the owner when he forgets that the charger is
> connected and pokes around in the pack wiring and touches something he
> shouldn't. That's his business and not mine.
> >
> >I know nobody likes to think about this, and I've been accused of being
> >an
> >alarmist.
>
> You are, in this instance, at least.
>
> >But what is going to happen to the EV movement when some 5 year
> >old child is electrocuted by a charging EV?
>
> "EV movement"? If there's any movement, one needs a time lapse camera
> to see it. In 5 years it'll be just like it is now - a few of us
> nutty people playing with our toys.
>
> >I guarantee it will make
> >newspapers and TV newscasts across the nation. They love that sort of
> >"see
> >what happens when you rock the boat" story. Before you know it we'll
> >have
> >legislation limiting or banning homebuilt EVs.
>
> Really? How many people do you suppose have been killed because
> something failed on a hotrod? A race car? Even a common ordinary
> shop jack? No legislation there.
>
> One can do the arm waving, sky-is-falling bit until nothing is safe. A
> rational approach is to do a probabilistic risk analysis (formally or
> off the cuff.) What is the risk of the venerable 5 year old being
> shocked by a non-isolated charger vs the risk of him, say, turning the
> car on and mashing the accelerator? After all, the kid doesn't have
> to know how to start an EV. Or releasing the emergency brake and
> letting the car roll away? (I did that as a kid. Thankfully there was
> a hedge a few feet behind the car.) Or sticking something in the
> charging outlet? Or hammering the cord with something until the
> insulation is broken? Or chewing on the cord? Or...... Since there
> has not yet been any kid harmed by an EV, at least to my knowledge, it
> doesn't appear to be much of a problem.
> >
> >A GFI is the minimum protection. If you aren't using one, you're on
> >borrowed time. Joe has kindly and sensibly shown us where one is
> >available
> >at a very reasonable cost, at least for the 20 amp level. Please, if you
> >use a PFC, make sure you have a working GFI on it at all times.
>
> On borrowed time? Surely you jest. This sort of hyperbole is highly
> counterproductive, especially for those who aren't particularly
> trained in electricity. Just what some marginally electrophobic
> person needs to hear. NOT!
>
> If I were in Rich's shoes and had my experience with the court system,
> a GFI would be inside every charger. Not because there is a pressing
> risk to address but simply as lawyer repellant. Legal CYA.
>
> If I had a PFC, I'm not sure what I'd do. If I was a normal person,
> I'd not think twice about using the thing without a GFI. I'm a
> tinkerer though, more apt than not to have the hatches open while
> charging and I'm also experienced enough with working on energized
> equipment that I sometimes get a bit too lax. Knowing that, I'd give
> a GFI strong consideration.
>
> Since I have several laying on the shelf, I'd probably install one and
> see how the false trips stack up. About the first time I woke up to a
> dead battery and a nuisance tripped GFI, I'd yank it out. I don't know
> whether I'd spend a hundred bux to go out and get one if I didn't have
> one on hand.
>
> What we really need is a GFI with an automatic reclosing ability like
> utility breakers. If it trips, wait 15 seconds and close back in. If
> it was a nuisance trip then it should stay in. If a person caused the
> trip then he should be gone by the time the reclose happens. If not,
> trip again and lock out. The GFI could close at zero crossing and
> monitor the circuit as the voltage rises on the half-cycle. If the
> imbalance is trending toward the danger point, trip early.
>
> I will have to admit that I do have a mighty bad boy charger and I
> DON'T have a GFI on it and I've never had even a close encounter. I
> will admit to being VERY careful around the thing, though.
>
> This non-isolated non-issue gets beaten to death about every 3 months
> it seems. Despite all the arm-waving, I have to wonder if anyone has
> even been tingled by a non-isolated charger? I've certainly never
> seen anyone post about it. I'm not talking about being shocked by the
> pack's DC voltage. I'm talking about an AC shock from touching a
> single point on the pack wiring (and ground, of course) when a PFC is
> connected (or a bad boy or any other non-isolated charger.)
>
> Has anyone been jolted? If so, let's hear about it. With 1000+
> members on this list, many of us hackers and tinkerers, if there IS a
> real danger, surely at least one person has encountered it.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
> Emerson
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>> it has the higher but still safe ground current cut off.
Rich Rudman wrote:
>> What level is that? I hope it's not 20ma. From what I've read,
>> anything above 5ma risks heart seizure.
Neon John wrote:
> It's closer to 50 ma for a normal human...
> 20 ma isn't pleasant but it won't kill anyone other than perhaps
> a very elderly person or someone who has heart problems.
> Five ma for half a cycle, the interval that a GFI must perform in,
> is felt but not much. More like having someone flip your arm with
> his finger.
The problem is that there are *large* variations in people's sensitivity
to shocks. Some can hardly feel a current that produces a drastic, even
fatal reaction in someone else.
50ma is high enough that you probably have a 50% chance of killing
someone. 5ma probably reduces this to a 1% chance; that's why they
picked it for GFCIs. Hospitals use 0.5ma, which reduces the risk to
essentially zero.
So -- how safe do you want to be? Is your EV only going to be touched by
healthy adult males? How about pregnant women? Or children? Little old
ladies? Some guy with a pacemaker?
I use the 5ma limit for things I design, as it represents the "best
practice" used in the industry. GM used 20ma for their EVs on the basis
that it was cheaper and easier to meet.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, I have a '90 GMC S-15 Sierra Pickup truck EV and am in need of some way
to safely and easily lift up the bed monthly for battery watering. I also
have a fiberglass camper shell on the bed, so even lifting with 2 people is
not easy. Any suggestions for this situation? Hydraulic lifts, etc? The
previous owner had a couple shocks to assist lifting but they apparently
didn't do the job and broke off. Thanks
Jacob Harris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 3, 2006, at 1:40 PM, James Massey wrote:
2) We're starting to think of Autumn here, so I'm guessing many of the
Northern Hemisphites (if that's a word) are thinking of spring.
We call ourselves Toppers or Upenders, or occasionally Northern
Hemispherians. At least that's what *I* call us. Or began calling us
after reading your email.
If you'll permit the pun, you can refer to people by polarity - Arctic
or Antarctic. I'm positive that there are no negative aspects to this
naming scheme.
So what's the EV plans for this year? Racing or otherwise, who is
planning what? Anyone planning long EV trips? getting Li-Po battery?
Getting a vehicle (back) on the road? Going for a timeslip to post to
Dragtimes?
I'm trying to get my approaching-three-years project running before
March has ended. We're moving to New Mexico and I'd like to have an
extra running vehicle when we hit Las Cruces.
In anticipation
James
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, Oregon, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 3, 2006, at 11:45 AM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
I'm actually looking for a bar graph that has red, yellow and green
all i
the same display.
I repeat myself:
Google says:
<http://www.elexp.com/opt_0ida.htm>
Check out the last one on the page.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, Oregon, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the feedback Guys, and the circuit idea Lee.
Lee wrote -
>Higher quality transformers use thinner laminations and better materials
>to get higher efficiency; you can recognize them because they run cool
>with no load. You can run these cores at 100-1000 Hz if you like; all
>that happens is that the core loss goes up proportional to frequency. If
>it was 3% at 60hz, it's 30% at 600hz.
One of the reasons im asking comes back to a discussion we had some time
ago about making a cheap(er) inductive charging system similar to the EV1s
but using sections of laminated transformer cores. Like the EV1 you could
have a portable paddle that plugs into a normal outlet and runs at 50 or
60Hz. Then in the garage a paddle with the primary driven at a higher
frequency to increase the transformer cores power handling ability. The
secondary winding would of course need be wound to support the higher
charging current of the fixed charger.
Thanks,
Justin
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.2/274 - Release Date: 03-03-06
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Northern Tool and Equipment has hydraulic lifts kits that uses a 12 vdc
pumps. If you are using only a 12V DC-DC converter and not a accessory
battery, than you may have to provide a separate 12 volt source.
NortherTool.com
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jacob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 11:02 PM
Subject: hydraulic lifts for truck bed info requested
> Hi, I have a '90 GMC S-15 Sierra Pickup truck EV and am in need of some
> way
> to safely and easily lift up the bed monthly for battery watering. I also
> have a fiberglass camper shell on the bed, so even lifting with 2 people
> is
> not easy. Any suggestions for this situation? Hydraulic lifts, etc? The
> previous owner had a couple shocks to assist lifting but they apparently
> didn't do the job and broke off. Thanks
> Jacob Harris
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Fisher wrote:
I still remember seeing the smoke come out from under my Triumph
TR-3's dash (dear Lucas). However, wouldn't your idea to use 1/4 watt
resistors on every attachment point to a battery render this system
fairly safe? Or in-line fuse holders on each line AT the battery.
I'm thinking in terms of a 48v scooter system.
I have not had good luck with fuse holders near flooded batteries as they
corroad and start giving bad readings , I ended up using pig tail fuses and
soldering all wires , heat shrinking the whole thing . I like the 1/4
resistor idea , I'll use it next time . A 0.1 ohm gives a 2.5 amp fuse ?
steve clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm assuming you are adding the Altrax to make basic driving easier and
still keep the regen quality of the EVolks kit. It would be a simple matter
with a couple of relays to cut out the altrax at low pedal for regen & high
pedal for full voltage in each gear. LR...............
----- Original Message -----
From: "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 1:28 PM
Subject: Alltrax for E-volks Geo Metro
I have added a file to the files showing a proposed diagram adding a
Alltrax 7245 for a E-volks Geo Metro 48 volts
I would appreciate any opinions or advice ...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: Transformer cores
Cor van de Water wrote:
You actually do not need to build all this high-power switching
stuff if you can find a battery charger that has a switching
power supply and your battery voltage is somewhere in the range
of 96V - 156V.
That shumminei ( miss spelled , but Roland talked about it ) is a switching
supply and will work on dc , I've tested on after opening it up but It won't
work for the lights as it goes into different charging modes , also not
cheep .
Most "120/240vac" switching supplies rectify and voltage-double the
120vac input, or just rectify a 240vac input. This gives them about
320vdc. This DC voltage powers their switchmode DC/DC converter. So, if
your EV has a roughly 320vdc pack, you're all set.
what I've noticed in the surplus catalogs if the write 120/240 the its got
the voltage doublers in it ( some times they even say switchable ) , if they
say 120-240 then there is a good chance that it will cover the whole range .
www.mpja.com has got some new one's I'm looking at and the rating is 85-264
vac the out put is 15v 4 amp and are 33 dollars . 16007-ps . They do have
some bigger but the bigger one have a 85-132/170-264 vac rating so they
probable have the doublers thing . This still doesn't do the job for the 2
people I have who are going to 348v and wonder whets the deal with getting a
part that should be availed .. Now if you figure a 2000 amp 348v controller
is $5000 than a 20 amp 348 dc to dc should be around $50 , boy that would be
sweet , I can see Otmar doing the math now " ohhhh I'm missed a dismal ,
2k's should be $50,000 . Good thing he didn't use the .50 watt , that seems
to be what the supple guy go by . So why do you think these are rated to 264
, 400v parts inside ?
steve clunn
Ring your hands and shake your head
Forget bright lights , that's what I said
There's a dc converter in everything
Just not the car that I'm driving in
Steve Clunn
That's where the kind of homemade DC/DC's we were describing came in.
--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
STEVE CLUNN wrote:
> I like the 1/4w resistor idea, I'll use it next time. A 0.1 ohm gives
> a 2.5 amp fuse?
Since the fusing current is an unspecified parameter, you need to test
it yourself in your application. If left exposed to open air (like
soldered on a printed circuit board, with its leads quite short), a 1/4w
resistor will open at about a minute with 1-3 watts power dissipation.
Adding insulation (i.e. heat shrink tubing) or cooling (ie.e. air
blowing over it) will significantly affect the wattage and time to open.
You should also expect significant variations between samples. One might
open at 1 amp, and another at 2 amps. Finally, the time it takes them to
blow open will be much longer than a real fuse.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Justin Southam wrote:
> One of the reasons I'm asking comes back to a discussion we had some
> time ago about making a cheap(er) inductive charging system similar
> to the EV1s but using sections of laminated transformer cores.
If you're doing it at 60hz, then the transformer is much heavier;
roughly 25 lbs per KW. It would be possible to cut the transformer so as
much as 80% of the weight is in the car; that means a 1 KW 60hz
inductive paddle would weigh around 5 lbs. If that's acceptable, you
have the basis to proceed.
I would cut the center leg of the "E" to about half length. Taper the
cut so the iron piece is keystone-shaped, so it can slide into the rest
of the core from the side, and wedge in place with a minimal gap at each
end.
The windings would be "split bobbin" style. The primary is on a bobbin
wound on the removable keystone-shaped piece. The secondary is on a
bobbin on the remaining half of the center leg of the "E" core.
You'd need some method to keep you from energizing the primary when it
wasn't inserted into the core. Since it is missing most of its core, it
would look almost like a short circuit and trip the breaker instantly.
It could be mechanical interlock (inserting the paddle closes a switch),
or a circuit that measures the inductance of the paddle to see if it is
inserted into the receptacle.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello, all,
Longley Motorsports Marketing Inc. is showing Coco Loto, the Electric Legend
Car, this weekend (March 4+5) at the Quest Field Event Center in Seattle, 10 am
to 10 pm on Sat., 10 am to 6 pm on Sunday.
Gary Longley is also showing a stock Legend car, as well as his NASCAR
simulator (a very large video game that allows you, for a small fee, to "race"
at several different well-known tracks). Gary is holding a competition in
which the top simulator competitors will race against each other for prizes.
While manning the booth last night at the show, I met Russell Stevenson, track
manager for Pacific Raceways in Kent, Washington. He's quite interested in
having an EV event at the track.
- Father Time
P.S. Tim: It was a slow night, only one R.H.
- F.T.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
P.S. to my previous message: Gary Longley's website is [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Father Time
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Justin Southam wrote:
>> One of the reasons I'm asking comes back to a discussion we had some
>> time ago about making a cheap(er) inductive charging system similar
>> to the EV1s but using sections of laminated transformer cores.
For cheap, low frequency is the wrong way to go, IMHO. At a high
enough frequency, no core at all is needed. At most, a little
ferrite. Plus the size of pretty much everything shrinks.
Here's an example. Look at this photo:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/files/misc/Induction%20Range%20Internals.jpg
This is a photo of the guts of a 1500 watt induction range. It
retailed for under $100. The black cradle holding the Litz wire coil
is some sort of ferrite. This unit couples practically all that power
through almost an inch of air and ceramic cook surface to the pan. The
pan forms a one turn shorted transformer secondary. 4kw commercial
induction ranges sell in the $500 range.
In fact, such an induction range could be used pretty much as-is as a
charger by simply laying a secondary coil onto the cook surface, along
with suitable rectification and control. In fact, I use this range,
after a little tinkering with the control surface to get it to run
less than fully loaded, as an induction heater for heating electrodes
and other objects in a vacuum. I wound a similar pancake coil from
Litz wire and connected a heavier, fewer turn coil made of copper
tubing to it through a series resonating capacitor, along with a
parallel resonating cap across the copper tubing.
The tubing coil is placed over the glass envelope containing the
electrode, target, etc. Even at reduced power it'll cherry a neon
electrode in seconds.
You could use an induction range pretty much intact as the primary of
an induction charger. Something as simple as putting a flat
fiberglass insert in a trunk lid with a coupling coil underneath. Flip
the range over, lay it on the fiberglass and hit the switch.
Induction ranges turn themselves off when unloaded so with the smart
charge control electronics in the car, simply let them open the
secondary circuit when charging is finished. In seconds the range is
off.
The pictured range itself generates very little heat. That hefty fan
is there for conducted heat that comes back through the ceramic cook
top from the skillet.
Of course, one could remove the parts from the range and package it
more conveniently. Or build one from scratch. Most all the high
power FET companies offer reference designs as app notes. I have
several. I've reverse-engineered my range and can say that the
circuit is dirt-simple - a simple capacitive half-bridge operated
directly from rectified line current.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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There are many factors involved which dictate the best frequency. It
depends on the thickness of the laminates but iron laminates get too
lossy at high frequency. Skin effect may limit the thickness of the
wire that can be used unless you use Litz wire.
It was a neat concept but I don't really know if an inductive charger is
all that useful. The main motivation I believe is safety. But just
thinking about it, you've got a large, likely heavy, iron plug that will
probably only have a thin lacquer between the high voltage and the iron
core. I don't think the core itself can carry a lot of insulation
because the extra spacing between core halves will reduce the coupling.
With some degree of physical abuse in a plug like that it's not
implausible that it could end up with a high voltage fault to the
exposed core laminates. It seems it could be more dangerous than a well
designed conductive plug with recessed contacts.
Danny
Neon John wrote:
Justin Southam wrote:
One of the reasons I'm asking comes back to a discussion we had some
time ago about making a cheap(er) inductive charging system similar
to the EV1s but using sections of laminated transformer cores.
For cheap, low frequency is the wrong way to go, IMHO. At a high
enough frequency, no core at all is needed. At most, a little
ferrite. Plus the size of pretty much everything shrinks.
Here's an example. Look at this photo:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/files/misc/Induction%20Range%20Internals.jpg
This is a photo of the guts of a 1500 watt induction range. It
retailed for under $100. The black cradle holding the Litz wire coil
is some sort of ferrite. This unit couples practically all that power
through almost an inch of air and ceramic cook surface to the pan. The
pan forms a one turn shorted transformer secondary. 4kw commercial
induction ranges sell in the $500 range.
In fact, such an induction range could be used pretty much as-is as a
charger by simply laying a secondary coil onto the cook surface, along
with suitable rectification and control. In fact, I use this range,
after a little tinkering with the control surface to get it to run
less than fully loaded, as an induction heater for heating electrodes
and other objects in a vacuum. I wound a similar pancake coil from
Litz wire and connected a heavier, fewer turn coil made of copper
tubing to it through a series resonating capacitor, along with a
parallel resonating cap across the copper tubing.
The tubing coil is placed over the glass envelope containing the
electrode, target, etc. Even at reduced power it'll cherry a neon
electrode in seconds.
You could use an induction range pretty much intact as the primary of
an induction charger. Something as simple as putting a flat
fiberglass insert in a trunk lid with a coupling coil underneath. Flip
the range over, lay it on the fiberglass and hit the switch.
Induction ranges turn themselves off when unloaded so with the smart
charge control electronics in the car, simply let them open the
secondary circuit when charging is finished. In seconds the range is
off.
The pictured range itself generates very little heat. That hefty fan
is there for conducted heat that comes back through the ceramic cook
top from the skillet.
Of course, one could remove the parts from the range and package it
more conveniently. Or build one from scratch. Most all the high
power FET companies offer reference designs as app notes. I have
several. I've reverse-engineered my range and can say that the
circuit is dirt-simple - a simple capacitive half-bridge operated
directly from rectified line current.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
P.S. to my previous message: Gary Longley's website is [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hum.. that doesn't look like a valid URL and its not www.garylongley.com
or similar. I don't think Juno offers hosting space for its customers.
You'll need to double check that address.
Mark
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"My Ebay Favorite Seller" sparky has
QF250, for a SqaureD panel, 50 amp two pole...
or HOM250GFI for type QA in stock brand new. He wrote
"The list price on that one is $189.95
Normal wholesale is $92.37, but
I can sell them for $76.00 plus $6 shipping"
It will take me some time to dig for
a link, but I thought I would post,
as this is my plan for some kind of 50a
outlet in my driveway.
(after I get a second-floor subpanel in
and do a reorg on the basement panel :-)
"todo todo, it's off todo I go..."
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signoff ev
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
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Danny Miller wrote:
> [Inductive charging] was a neat concept but I don't really know if
> an inductive charger is all that useful. The main motivation I believe
> is safety.
Inductive chargers have been around for a very long time; certainly long
before GM's abortive Magnecharger. Braun has been selling electric
toothbrushes that use it for 20 years, and Inductran has been selling
them for industrial EVs for even longer.
The usual selling point is convenience, not safety. Just bring the two
halves near enough, and they "couple" and charge. Drop the toothbrush in
its stand, or park the EV over its charging "hot spot" in the floor. No
problems with dirt, water, corrosion, bad connections, etc.
GM, for whatever reason, decided to promote inductive charging for
"safety". They painted a picture of terrified moms being electrocuted by
plugging in their EVs on a rainy night, or children fried from playing
with the charging cord in somenone's garage. This struck me as
fear-mongering; no sane charger has ever had exposed "hot" terminals.
> But just thinking about it, you've got a large, likely heavy, iron
> plug that will probably only have a thin lacquer between the high
> voltage and the iron core.
The iron core is electrically neutral; it doesn't matter if you touch it
or not.
The coil wound around it can be as heavily insulated as you like. Normal
transformers all have at least 1000 volts of insulation, and that only
takes 1/16" or so of a suitable material.
Additionally, a GFCI can check for leakage current from damaged
insulation, and shut the system down before anyone is hurt.
Neon John wrote:
> For cheap, low frequency is the wrong way to go, IMHO. At a high
> enough frequency, no core at all is needed. At most, a little
> ferrite. Plus the size of pretty much everything shrinks.
You're right that the size and weight of a transformer shrinks as you go
up in frequency. By itself, this reduces cost. However, most other
parameters go the other way:
- The higher the frequency, the harder it is to get high efficiency.
- Higher frequencies require special materials and more complicated
construction techniques.
- High frequency designs add power transistors and control circuitry;
low frequency designs can run directly on 60hz power.
- The extra parts needed for high-frequency designs lowers their
reliability.
- High frequencies generate more RF interference, requiring extra
filtering.
- These factors can make high frequency designs cost more.
Design engineers are forever balancing all these factors against each
other. Whether a high- or low-frequency design "wins" depends heavily on
what you think is important. High-frequency designs are best when size
and weight matter most. Low-frequency designs are best when reliability
and efficiency matter most. Cost can go either way; either can be cheap
if you let the other parameters get bad enough (i.e. don't care about
efficiency etc.)
> Here's an example... of the guts of a 1500 watt induction range.
> It retailed for under $100.
Induction heaters are neat gadgets, but their efficiency as a
transformer is actually pretty low -- 70% or so. This is acceptable
because the heat produced is the desired result, rather than a loss.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Well, as some people may know, I have a US_Electricar Prizm, and have
been given a truck with a dead Dolphin. So now I am highly motivated to
fix these things.
I've sat down and worked on it, and now I know why it's dead: Basically
there is a variable power supply inside there that takes anything from
120 volts DC rectified thru 400 volts DC (battery at max possible
trickle) and runs it thru a power MOSFET and switcher circuit to a
little transformer.
The other sides of this transformer provide the +5,-5,+15,-15 through a
set of simple diodes and regulators. Thus you get nice isolated power
for all your telemetry circuits.
Well, one of these (+15) is dead. Further checking shows that the
transformer has a burned out winding on that leg. Terrific.
Now of course I have to make repairs. What I need is a DC-DC converter
that can take anything from 100 volts up to 400 volts and put out a
rock-solid 15 volts at about 1 amp. I can then attach this to the
Dolphin at the point of the existing voltage regulator and let it go to
town.
Before I go building this myself, does anyone know of something
off-the-shelf that might work? I think my chances of replacing this
transformer are pretty nil, but does anyone know of a place to find
replacement small transformers?
Chris
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what files?
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I'm assuming you are adding the Altrax to make basic
> driving easier and
> still keep the regen quality of the EVolks kit. It
> would be a simple matter
> with a couple of relays to cut out the altrax at low
> pedal for regen & high
> pedal for full voltage in each gear.
> LR...............
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 1:28 PM
> Subject: Alltrax for E-volks Geo Metro
>
>
> >I have added a file to the files showing a proposed
> diagram adding a
> > Alltrax 7245 for a E-volks Geo Metro 48 volts
> >
> > I would appreciate any opinions or advice ...
> >
> >
> >
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
I was wondering about the Honda driveline. The engines
run the other direction...
If I had two front wheeled cars like a Geo Metro and a
Honda Civic, and I used the Geo Metro intact except I
swaped the back-end with the front end and axles with
the Honda Axle.
when using two surplus motors, would it be ok if they
both ran clockwise?
I was trying to avoid have to flip tthe rear end 180
degrees.
I hope I'm clear enough
Mike
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Anyone with updates can post them here...
http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/EVents_2006_03_04
So I went looking around for his site and didn't come up with much.
This is as close as I could get, but maybe this is old news:
http://www.nwmotorsportsexpo.com/coolstuff.htm
Some of the cool stuff happing is Gary owner of Longley Motorsport
Marketing is bringing a *Coors Original NASCAR simulator* to the expo
where you will have an opportunity to sit inside a real Busch Grand
National race car simulator and race around the track.
Gary owner of Longley Motorsports is a company that displays different
forms of racing as a marketing tool for various corporations through out
the northwest. Gary has been involved in racing since the age of 10 and
has been racing cars himself for 15 years and owns seven race cars.
Gary’s wife Vanita races boats on the APBA circuit and has several wins
along with a world record run at Lake Lawrence in 2004 and has plans of
touring all over the country in 2005.
*Longley Motorsports will also have on display their Coors Light legend
car along with the first built electric 120v legend car built with the
assistance of well known electric car builder Don Crabtree.* The new
electrical legend car set a new world record at the Woodburn drag strip
in 2004 and Longley Motorsports has plans to race it in the 2005 NEDRA
drag race series. Longley Motorsports will also be displaying their
Tecate late model car at the Northwest Motorsports Expo.
Mark Farver wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> P.S. to my previous message: Gary Longley's website is
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Hum.. that doesn't look like a valid URL and its not
> www.garylongley.com or similar.
> I don't think Juno offers hosting space for its customers.
> You'll need to double check that address.
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