EV Digest 5248
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Titling EV issue
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Better to Run Down or Better to Keep Charging as Opportunities Arise ?
by "Dr. Andy Mars" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Crusty motor
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Better to Run Down or Better to Keep Charging as Opportunities Arise ?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) remove
by robert phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: more BS from Dean Grannes, Way, Way Off Topic, I will no longer post
after this Comments, Same Here.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Parallel Charging
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Crusty motor
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EVLN(Vectrix: 50 mph in 6.8 sec, top speed 62 mph)-Long,
Comments.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Motor Winding
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Crusty motor
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Better to Run Down or Better to Keep Charging as Opportunities Arise ?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Transformer 1
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EVLN(Vectrix: 50 mph in 6.8 sec, top speed 62 mph)-Long, Comments.
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Geo EV battery results
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Better to Run Down or Better to Keep Charging as Opportunities Arise
?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Crusty motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: crusty motor
by kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: more BS from Dean Grannes, Way, Way Off Topic, I will no
longer post after this
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Transformer 1
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Last week I titled my EV in California ...
The vehicle title was from out of state I had a form signed by a peace
officer (city policeman) to verify the vin , make , model. He also
noted that it was electric powered.
I filled out a statement of facts that it was electric
powered.Exempting smog test .
Went to DMV with title and forms (no vehicle). Paid fees and walked
out with new plates and regis for a year .
Got pink slip today with with fuel marked as E instead of G
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is it better to run the battery down and then fully charge,
or
Is it better to charge throughout the day a little here and a little here,
as opportunity arises?
Thanks, in advance, for input on this.
Until next INTERNEcTion -
Take care (and spread it around) -
Peace,
Andy
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 9:35 PM
Subject: RE: When to charge
> Batteries seem to appreciate being charged soon after use. I think this
is
> one of the keys to the relatively long battery life that Solectria users
> enjoy - the regen gives the battery a little sip at the charge fountain
> frequently.
>
> OTOH a lot of the stress of a charge seems to occur during the absorption
> and (if applied) equalization phases.
>
> I wouldn't let your battery sit overnight, but I might not try to get it
to
> 100% by morning, either. How about a nice, slow, easy charge at home?
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:24 PM 10/03/06 -0600, Erik wrote:
<snip> Also the comm is pretty dark, and my guess is just a layer of
oxidation.
Will this clean up with use or do I need to break it down and clean it?
How accurate does it need to be too? Is a strip of sand paper good or is
this a job for a lathe and emory paper? Thanks!
Hi Eric - and all
Dark (black-brown) comm is a normal colour where the brushes run, but where
the brushes don't run the comm should be no darker than brown, blackness is
an indication of a nasty storage environment.
Stick a new set of bearings in it and make sure the brushes are free. If
you can get some digital pics online somewhere there are several people
including a motor guru (Jim Husted) who can have a look and make some more
constructive comments.
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lead-Acid should be opportunity charged whenever possible to get maximum
mileage out of a pack. Not overcharged.
NiCad don't seem to care how deep they are discharged or how often they are
charged although they perform better when they are full.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Andy Mars" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 10:13 PM
Subject: Better to Run Down or Better to Keep Charging as Opportunities
Arise ?
> Is it better to run the battery down and then fully charge,
>
> or
>
> Is it better to charge throughout the day a little here and a little here,
> as opportunity arises?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You have a great list ....but I don't have the time to keepo up and the volume
ahs suprised me.
Please remove me from this list.
Thanks
Bob Phelps
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: more BS from Dean Grannes, Way, Way Off Topic, I will no longer
post after this
Hi EVerybody;
Sorta disapointed with the NEDRA EVents. Where do we go from here? I
really can't see Dean "Owning" the outfit, but he seems to by default. Guys
like Dube, Wayland, Wilde,Berube,Cloud, and sorry if I missed a bunch of
guys, was just shooting from the hip here. and other household, to ME ,at
least,guyz that set it up and made it go. I WAS a menber, awile DID pay in
my dues. But was never asked to renew. I wish the hell I could pay for and
have all the guys involved sit down to a Mexican Dinner at that nice place
in PDX that we used to scooter to from the Wayland Juice Bar.I feel that
things could be fun, hammered out over good food, company and Tall Racing
Stories.
There is certainly a lota newer folks from ALL over the country, (World)
England, France, Australia, for starters,that could, should be involved.
Hell, EVen I have run down the Track a few times<g>! with a 54 MPH in the
quarter I'm surely no threat. Will do better THIS year, I hope, May make a
mile-a-minute! But I don't care. I leave the Real Racing to John and Dennis,
Dave , Rod and Matt.Just for starters. This is why we need to get our shit
together. I hope I'm not stepping on any toes, here. But it should be easier
than getting ubtanium batteries for our cars or, Gasp! Settling WHAT plug to
use. Not trying to be confruntational, but I hate to see NEDRA just go away.
White Zombie is EVen mentioned in CONNECTICUT where drag racing guyz get
together and have a beer! I SAW/heard this, when I went to a racing shop,
to have my armature/clutch balanced.Maybe they stumbled in to NEDRA? But
Drag Times is a biggie.
We have a hot racing season coming up, EVen if there isn't anybody at
the wheel at NEDRA. Can't we work this out. I was saddened by Rod's letter,
dropping out. And others, maybe you reading this feel, " What the hell duz
Bob know" Well, you're right. I don't know what's going on behind the scenes
at NEDRA.This is a sort of simplistic appeal,
But as pointed out below, there are more guyz in the Corvette Club, local
chapter, than the whole NEDRA!? Gees! After the Drag Times Stuff, we SHOULD
have membership in the hundreds? OK I know there are folks that don't care
for drag racing. The'll say " Waste of energy and materials" But it is , and
we NEED a proving ground for EV" STUFF" Oatmar's controllers Madman's
chargers, born and bred at the track, Warfield's Motors, on and on. Nedra
has gotten us EVers a bit of respect with NHRA. Without racing safety
standards you wouldn't even be able to take your EV off the trailer at any
NHRA track! I look at the GOOD things done by the heavies a few years ago
art NEDRA.
Bottom line here, I'll get down from my soapbox, now.NEDRA is worth
saving, I don't know where to begin, or how can I help?Or WE, as the List is
the EV Driving force. With the Oilies in the other corner we need a tad of
unity, not OVER unity here.We have a tough enough row to hoe here without
desention in the ranks.Will talk this up at our EAA Meeting today. But CT
and Mass 'aint Drag racing heaven.CT Dragway is history. Sigh!
Want to say " SEEYA" at Power of DC , Joliet, Woodburn, all those
enchanting places.
Bob, cheering from the stands, Cam Corder going!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Given 3 isolated chargers and 2 parallel strings, would it work to hook them
up as below ? (NOTE: each cell in diagram represents multiple batteries.)
+-------+
+========+--------| |
| | _____ _____
| CHG1 | ___ ___
+========+--------. .
+========+--------. .
| | _____ _____
| CHG2 | ___ ___
+========+--------. .
+========+--------. .
| | _____ _____
| CHG3 | ___ ___
+========+--------| |
+-------+
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Eric
First off lets look at what you are calling "rough" spots while rotating.
Re-run the motor (12 volts) and rest your finger on a brush or brush spring and
feel if the commutator is running true and smooth. You'll easily feel if there
is any out of round areas doing this test. I've read that a motor (in storage)
should have it's brushes removed from the comm. so that the brushes won't
oxidize against the comm. bars. In fact you may have had just this sort of
issue, which if it is not bad some fine grade sand paper could get you cleaned
up just fine. If you see a noticeable drag do to bad bearings you should be
able to see and feel this when you turn the power off and let the motor spin
down. Now these motors are not going to hand spin like an AC motor due to the
brush tension on the comm. Further more what do the bearings sound like? Are
they smooth sounding or do the sound like they have become dry with an almost
sandy sound? Also it is normal for these motors to k!
ick back
(opposite of the armature rotation) after disconnecting the power and is not
an issue. If in fact you do notice rough spots on the comm get a local shop to
turn it for you, a comm stone may remove small rough areas but not anything
major. If you decide to change your bearings I'm sure there are a lot of
archive posts to help you through. Just don't try to drive the armature
through the housing (from the drive end) as you will bust your fan when it hits
the field coils 8^ )
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
www.hitorqueelectric.com
Erik Bigelow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi all,
I'm starting a conversion on a 92 Cabriolet using parts pulled from
another
converted Rabbit. I was a little worried about the motor (ADC 8")
because I
couldn't turn the shaft by hand. Last night I hooked it up to 12V and it
spun up well and now I can turn the shaft by hand.
My question is that the motor has a few rough spots during the rotation,
and
what do I need to look at? Dirty bearing perhaps? Also the motor seems
to slow down quicker than I thought, the reaction torque from removing
the 12V power is enough to make the motor jerk while it's loose on the
ground.
Also the comm is pretty dark, and my guess is just a layer of oxidation.
Will this clean up with use or do I need to break it down and clean it?
How accurate does it need to be too? Is a strip of sand paper good or is
this a job for a lathe and emory paper? Thanks!
This is my first post here, I've been a lurker for months now and have
had so many questions answered. Thanks to all the great contributors
here.
Erik
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Apples and oranges. That's like say if Cray spends $100 million
developing a new super computer then it makes sense to spend $100 million
on a new palm top.
The Explorer costs 5 times as much as the Vectrix is targeted for, it's an
established vehicle from a WELL established company.
Explorer sales tumbled 29% last year and yet they STILL sold over 240,000
of them.
$100 million is less than $417 per Explorer for one year.
They aren't going to sell 240,000 vectrix per year(assuming they ever make
it to market). IMHO they will be lucky to sell 24,000 per year, at least
at first.
But I'm not in marketing, so perhaps the key to success is to spend
millions of dollars. Corbin only spent about $6 million total in R&D and
initial prodution and they failed (even though folks on this list said
they spent to much money).
> Ford spent $100 million on the last facelift of the Explorer. $90 million
> is chump change for a company like that, and it sucks that the best
> "innovation" they can come up with is yet another rendition of the Taurus.
>
> Tim
>
> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Subject: Re: EVLN(Vectrix: 50 mph in 6.8 sec, top speed 62 mph)-Long,
>> Comments.
>> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:30:29 -0500
>>
>> > >
>> > Think of that; 90 MILLION DOLLARS! That's a PILE of money, in
>> one
>> place!!Enough to hire the best minds on the List, buy a factory, get
>> stuff
>> drawn up and built!
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jeff,
Here is the specs on the GE motor which was design and engineer by the EFP
company and contracted to GE to make six of these motors for six proto type
EVs.
I received the No. 2 EV call Transformer I to further improved and do
research in cold climates and hill climbing at highway speeds.
They will not let out the winding details on this motor, so it either has to
be ship back to the GE motor plant that is north of Detroit or get a
released of data for repair. Well, I just got all the data on replacement
parts last week, but still did not got a winding data.
So I will get the winding data, when we put the coils on a re-winding
machine that has a counter. Will have to reverse engineer the winding
directions, spacing, number of layers and direction of connections from
field to field.
The only over specifications is as listed on label.
General Electric Traction Motor
165 volt @ 175 amp 32HP
Encl. - BV - 5925 RPM
250 lbs
The drive output shaft is 1-3/8 inch.
The pilot shaft is 1-1/8 inch.
A GE Traction Motors are design so that the drive end bell housing is design
to bolt up to any transmission you specific, it does not need any motor to
transmission adapters.
There motors are design for a direct replace of a engine that was in the
car. The side of the motor has the same mounting bolt pattern for a engine
mounted of a 350 cu.in. which bolts down to the same place on the cross
frame.
Maximum speed is 91 mph at 5900 rpm. At 60 mph the rpm is 3900 rpm.
The overall gear ratio in 1st is 19.5:1 to 25 mph, 2nd is 13.5:1 to 35 mph
and 3rd is 5.57:1 to 91 mph with the 300 AH cobalt batteries or to 77 mph
with the 260 AH Trojan batteries.
I am going to change this manual transmission with a automatic which can be
lock or unlock which will have a overall ratio of 26:1 and vary down to 17:1
in 1st gear. 17:1 to 9:1 in 2nd gear and 5.57:1 in Drive which the torque
converter of 1.8:1 ratio in un-lock position.
In lock position, it will have the same gear ratios as the manual.
I do not take 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear speed to the maximum, shift at 15 mph to
2nd and to 3rd at 25 mph, so my rpm never goes above 4000 rpm.
It is more important to read the motor ampere in my car than the RPM, so
after talking to Otmar this week, I change the large Stewart Warner
tachometer to a motor amp meter, by turning off Option "a" and "b" and
turning on option "k" (which is AMPS ON TACH). If the tach reads 1000, this
means it is 100 amps. With this large meter right in front of you, you
become more a ware of the motor ampere.
If I want to have tachometer reading too, I could install a MSD magnetic
pickup way in the front of the accessory drive. This is the same type of
rpm sensor units that bolt onto the damper wheel of a engine, and can run a
second tachometer directly.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: Motor Winding
> Before I say anything more, I want to say that is one of the most
> impressive EV's in the photo album. Very professional looking conversion.
>
>
> Roland said...
>
> "With the CableForm controller it reads 180 ampere at 175 volts at both
> the
> motor and batteries at a steady 50 mph. At start up, the motor ampere does
> surge to about 300 amps, but then matches the battery ampere.
>
> With the Zilla, I get 0 to 100 battery ampere and 0 to 400 battery ampere.
> At a steady speed, the motor ampere is at 200 amps and the battery
> ampere is
> at 50 amps."
>
> Ok, got it. this is function of the motors being changed, not the
> controllers.
>
> Same car means same resistance at 50mph
>
> Both controllers are near the same effiency, I assume, so the same
> amount gets to the motor if requested.
>
> But the ge motor sounds like it is wound for a lower rpm higher torque,
> probably drive around in third?,
> If you were to downshift to second so that the warp revs up raising the
> voltage on the motor side, more watts on the motor side would result.
>
> What does that GE motor weigh? that is a good indication of the torque
> output. the warp is 165 lbs. What motor rpms are we talking.
> RPM is the trade off. 1/2 the torque at twice the rpm is the same amount
> of power.
>
> Again, I am still hung up on the math. Using the numbers from the first
> message
> 180*175 is 31.5kw, at 60mph that is also 60 miles ina n hour and
> 31.5kwh/60 or 525 wh/mile ???
> 200*45 = 9kw and 175*50 is 8.75kw and you said the zilla/warp
> combination does this, that is 150wh/mile !!!
>
>
> I assume you were talking about 199 amps for the warp because of
> overheating, what rpm was the warp turning.
>
>
> I have a rebuilt warp 9 and zilla 1k 25 orbitals and a rather heavy
> conversion. but I live in a valley and the hills are at the edge of my
> range, so no climbing. Before the rebuilt, it really scooted and could
> smoke the tires at will, even with 750 lbs of lead over the rear axle.
> After blowing up the warp, I have been more carefull and haven't tested
> it but it seems less torquey that before. (I have to check the throttle
> pot)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Erik,
My new Warp 9 motor, which is about the same as a ADC 9 motor did the same
thing. After unpacking it, I could barely turn it. Turn it only clock
wise. Note the angle sweep of the brushes. My was design to rotate clock
wise, the same direction a engine would rotate.
I strap it down on to a wooden dolly that is shape to fit the curve of the
motor, I test run it on 12 volts. It does torque on start up.
On a new motor, the spring tension on 8 sets of brushes are the greatest at
that time. The commentator may be on stone and not polish, which is call
mircro mirroring. After the brush graphite fills the commentator, it should
give it a nice even dark brown color to it which conditions these surfaces.
When the commentator is new and not mircro mirror, the brush noise will be
greater at the beginning and will reduce as the commentator becomes more
condition. I had a brush clicking noise, means that either the brushes were
riding from a rough area to a smooth area of the commentator.
As long as there is no deep scratches. Feel the edges of the commentator
gaps between the segments, if the feel sharp, than it may best to have it
under cut and V-grooved so the brushes do not cut faster at these points.
Also it prevents the commentator gaps from growing too close together.
You can go to a motor shop and pick up commentator stoning and undercutting
tools. Talk to them on what procedures are used to maintain you DC motor.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Erik Bigelow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 8:24 PM
Subject: Crusty motor
> Hi all,
>
> I'm starting a conversion on a 92 Cabriolet using parts pulled from
> another
> converted Rabbit. I was a little worried about the motor (ADC 8")
> because I
> couldn't turn the shaft by hand. Last night I hooked it up to 12V and it
> spun up well and now I can turn the shaft by hand.
>
> My question is that the motor has a few rough spots during the rotation,
> and
> what do I need to look at? Dirty bearing perhaps? Also the motor seems
> to slow down quicker than I thought, the reaction torque from removing
> the 12V power is enough to make the motor jerk while it's loose on the
> ground.
>
> Also the comm is pretty dark, and my guess is just a layer of oxidation.
> Will this clean up with use or do I need to break it down and clean it?
> How accurate does it need to be too? Is a strip of sand paper good or is
> this a job for a lathe and emory paper? Thanks!
>
> This is my first post here, I've been a lurker for months now and have
> had so many questions answered. Thanks to all the great contributors
> here.
>
> Erik
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Andy,
If the batteries are a lead-acid type, and if you run down below to 75% or
lower, but not more than 50%, it best to charge them.
Keeping above 50% is best for long life, but if you are driving a very long
distance, where you have to drop lower than 50% than the maximum of 20%
which the electrolyte is at 1.100 specific gravity.
So you must charge right away!!!
Water has a specific gravity of 1.000!!
Back in the 70's we normally drop to 20% and super fast charge the batteries
to 80%. We would only charge to 100 % at about once a week.
Today, when I get down to 75% which may take me several days to get there, I
will charge to 80% at 50 amps which only takes minutes to do, if I need to
run with the EV again. I still only charge from 80 to 100 percent about once
a week.
The maximum charge that should be applied to a lead-acid is 20 percent of
the ampere-hour rating of the battery is up to 80% for the best life.
My batteries are 260 ah, so I can applied a 52 amp charge up to the 80%
level. It could be more, if you have re-moveable fill caps on the
batteries, to see the electrolyte bubble reaction. If its more rapid, than
you should cut back on the ampere or set the charger maximum voltage that
would indicated about 80% charge to start to decrease the charge ampere.
As the batteries get older, you will find that you will have to decrease the
charge rate. Sometime like when a person gets older.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Andy Mars" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 11:13 PM
Subject: Better to Run Down or Better to Keep Charging as Opportunities
Arise ?
> Is it better to run the battery down and then fully charge,
>
> or
>
> Is it better to charge throughout the day a little here and a little here,
> as opportunity arises?
>
> Thanks, in advance, for input on this.
>
> Until next INTERNEcTion -
>
> Take care (and spread it around) -
>
> Peace,
> Andy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 9:35 PM
> Subject: RE: When to charge
>
>
> > Batteries seem to appreciate being charged soon after use. I think this
> is
> > one of the keys to the relatively long battery life that Solectria users
> > enjoy - the regen gives the battery a little sip at the charge fountain
> > frequently.
> >
> > OTOH a lot of the stress of a charge seems to occur during the
> > absorption
> > and (if applied) equalization phases.
> >
> > I wouldn't let your battery sit overnight, but I might not try to get it
> to
> > 100% by morning, either. How about a nice, slow, easy charge at home?
> >
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EV List Assistant Administrator
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> > or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> > To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
Just checking out the Apollo web site and found what
looks like a photo of your car when it was new,
http://www.apolloenergysystems.com/images/prev_model18.jpg
they also have stats on all of their EV's here,
http://www.apolloenergysystems.com/prev_mod_03.html
Did you work at Apollo? How did you get involved with
their EV's?
Thanks,
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In my humble opinion they don't want to sell Vectrix (difficult way to win
money), they want to bring lots of money investment to them justified by
lots of studies and technical claims (easy way to win money), period.
I helped on a business plan (and completed industrial plan) ready to make
powerfull and long range electric scooter (50km/h 120km to 150km range or
80km/h 70km range) with 100 000km batterie life (range and life based on
nicad), no salesman claims here, only tested best EV products.
Want to know the calculated cost for starting the company including first
1000 scooters and all company/scooter "tooling" price ?
less than $10 millions !!!
BUT we are in France and here nobody want to invest to usable EV technology
:^(
So when i read such money wasting it make me really crazy !
I hope they will sell few in a near futur (they said:UK during 2006)
overwise i will be really annoyed against them !
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: EVLN(Vectrix: 50 mph in 6.8 sec, top speed 62 mph)-Long,
Comments.
> Apples and oranges. That's like say if Cray spends $100 million
> developing a new super computer then it makes sense to spend $100 million
> on a new palm top.
>
> The Explorer costs 5 times as much as the Vectrix is targeted for, it's an
> established vehicle from a WELL established company.
> Explorer sales tumbled 29% last year and yet they STILL sold over 240,000
> of them.
>
> $100 million is less than $417 per Explorer for one year.
>
> They aren't going to sell 240,000 vectrix per year(assuming they ever make
> it to market). IMHO they will be lucky to sell 24,000 per year, at least
> at first.
>
> But I'm not in marketing, so perhaps the key to success is to spend
> millions of dollars. Corbin only spent about $6 million total in R&D and
> initial prodution and they failed (even though folks on this list said
> they spent to much money).
>
> > Ford spent $100 million on the last facelift of the Explorer. $90
million
> > is chump change for a company like that, and it sucks that the best
> > "innovation" they can come up with is yet another rendition of the
Taurus.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >> To: <[email protected]>
> >> Subject: Re: EVLN(Vectrix: 50 mph in 6.8 sec, top speed 62 mph)-Long,
> >> Comments.
> >> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:30:29 -0500
> >>
> >> > >
> >> > Think of that; 90 MILLION DOLLARS! That's a PILE of money, in
> >> one
> >> place!!Enough to hire the best minds on the List, buy a factory, get
> >> stuff
> >> drawn up and built!
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My Geo EV is up on the Photo album: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/701.html
I'd like to get it to daily driver status in the near term if possible. It
was purchased in December free of batteries and charger. The challenge now is
to install a battery pack that is functioning properly. Otherwise the Geo
appears to be a nice EV in good condition with a lot of potential. Here is what
has transpired so far regarding the batteries:
I purchased ten 39 ah Hawkers at surplus in order to check out that the car
was operating properly before making a major battery purchase. Ultimately 8 of
these were installed in the lower level of the main battery box and charged
individually to 14.4 volts. They propelled the Geo about 4 miles around the
neighborhood at residential speeds including some hills before ebbing and the
Geo EV returned home. The discharge amps meter peaked around 200 amps on one
hill.
Recently a fellow EVer donated over 2 dozen Yuasa NPX-150R 40ah batteries.
They are similar in size and appearance to the Hawkers. I checked their
voltages and they were 12.72-13.05 volts which was higher then where all but 2
of the Hawkers had settled at even after being individually charged. So I had
thought that perhaps they were fully charged and a 12 volt battery charger had
indicated that the lowest voltage one was.
I did consider equalizing them but ultimately didn't do so prior to
installation as I was hoping to successfully speed things along in order to
have the Geo ready for my local EAA chapter monthly meeting.
Anyway I ended up pulling out the Hawkers and installing 20 of the Yuasas in
2 120v strings: 8 below, 6 above, and 6 in the rear battery box.
On Thursday, once all 20 were connected the voltage was 128.5 volts using a
handheld vom. But the 20 Yuasas were only able to propel the Geo about 1.5
miles around the neighborhood before ebbing. The discharge amps again peaked
around 200 amps.
The Geo has a "charge indicator" which is 10 yellow LEDs arranged in a row.
Only 1 LED lights at any given time. Leftmost ones at lower voltages, rightmost
ones at higher voltages.
A couple observations noted: as soon as the drive circuit was closed just
prior to the neighborhood trip the indicated voltage started dropping to a
middle LED and then held there even though the throttle had not been pressed to
activate the drive motor. Also a 'hissing' sound was briefly heard from the
rear battery box area.
Yesterday I checked and tried individually charging the 6 batts in the rear
box. Prior to the charge they were in the 12.5-12.7v range. A new Schumacher
WM-1200a 12v charger (not the charger mentioned above) was connected to each of
the 6 batts. 5 of the 6 responded similarly: on a 2 amp charge within 2 minutes
they climbed to 14.3 v and the charger then went into float at 13.5. The final
battery's voltage swung up and down rapidly with the charger shutting off and
on.
The battery boxes present a challenge in that the main battery box behind the
rear seats has 2 levels; upper and lower. The batteries in the lower level
can't be reached due to the batteries sitting on top of them in the upper
level. The reason I connected 20 Yuasas all at once was to try to take a
shortcut so as to get the Geo ready in time for my local EAA chapter meeting so
others could see it. But that didn't work out.
I'd be interested in suggestions about how to proceed from here. One thought
was to simply change connections and use the accessible batteries to make a
single 144 volt string in order to simplify voltage checks, charging of
individual batteries, and to assess what the condition of the Yuasas really
are. I'm open to the possibility that maybe they aren't actually suitable for
this EV application as they came out of a company UPS that was decommissioned.
Mark
---------------------------------
Brings words and photos together (easily) with
PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Dr. Andy Mars" wrote:
> Is it better to run the battery down and then fully charge,
>
> or
>
> Is it better to charge throughout the day a little here and a little
> here, as opportunity arises?
The answer depends on the type of battery.
Lead-acid
---------
Lead-acids do NOT like to be deeply dishcharged. The shallower the
discharge, the longer they last. Typical numbers are
100% discharge = 50 cycles
80% discharge = 200 cycles
50% discharge = 600 cycles
20% discharge = 1000 cycles
1% discharge = 5000 cycles
Running your car's battery dead murders it quickly. A normal ICE's
battery only discharges 1% per start, so it lasts for thousands of
starts. If you multiply these numbers, you find that the best total
amphour capacity over life (lowest cost per mile) occurs if you
discharge them about 50% per cycle.
Lead-acids also should not sit around in a discharged state. Doing this
will shorten their life. The deeper the discharge, the sooner you should
recharge. A few weeks won't matter if it's only slightly discharged, but
a few hours is a long time if it was deeply discharged.
It does no harm to "opportunity charge" lead-acids (as long as you don't
OVERcharge them). So, it's best to charge as soon as you can after a
discharge.
Nickel Cadmium
--------------
Nicads are not harmed by deep discharges, unless you run them completely
dead. The big danger is if your keep running current through them when
they are dead; this can cause cells to short (particularly for sealed
nicads). This happens when you have a series string of nicads; the
weakest cell goes dead, and the rest keep current flowing thru the dead
cell. It reverses polarity, and shorts.
So, it is ok to run nicads "mostly" dead; just don't run them down so
far that you notice the load slowing or dimming (i.e a cell has gone
dead).
Nicads are much more tolerant of sitting around in a discharged state.
They commonly store and ship nicads "dead" without harm.
Nicads are very tolerant of overcharing. You can overcharge them at a
0.1C rate for months. All that happens is that they get warm (which
shortens life a little), and if it's a flooded nicad, it loses water
(which can be replaced).
Nickel Metal Hydride
--------------------
Nimh are a lot like nicads. The main difference is that they do not
tolerate overcharging. They do not tend to short if run dead, but it
still harms the battery. They are more likely to fail as a open circuit
than a short circuit.
For longest life, nimh applications try hard to keep them between 40%
and 80% state of charge, since the two ends are where the damage that
shortens their life occur.
Lithium
-------
There are lots of different types of lithium batteries, so it's hard to
generalize. In general, they DIE QUICKLY if overcharged, or if
discharged too deeply! Pretty much all lithium applications require
circuitry to monitor every cell's voltage, and prevent the user from
ever overcharging it or, running it dead. Without such circuitry, a
single event will kill them.
But as long as you avoid the "ends" (fully charged or fully discharged),
lithiums tend not to care what state of charge they are at. I don't
think we have enough data to tell if there is a optimum state of charge
for best cost per mile.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Erik wrote:
> Also the comm is pretty dark, and my guess is just a layer of
> oxidation...
James Massey's advice is good. A dark chocolate-brown is normal.
> do I need to break it down and clean it? Is a strip of sandpaper
> good or is this a job for a lathe and emory paper?
Never use emory paper on a commutator or other electrical contacts. The
dust it leaves is very bad for contacts.
If the commutator needs to be cleaned, the right tool is a "commutator
stone" -- basically a bar of abrasive material of the proper grade. If
the commutator is damaged, grooved, out of round etc. then you need to
disassemble the motor and have it turned smooth and true in a lathe.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had the same thing with the Prestolite 4001 that was in the abandoned Courier
I'm reconverting. It had been sitting outdoors for at least
three years and was seriously neglected. The motor ran slow, and made a
ticking noise, and all in all, was not pretty. I was too impatient to
wait to get a comm stone from EVparts so I just taped some sandpaper onto a
flexible stick and lightly sanded the comm as it turned. It
cleaned up really nice and spins easy, runs smooth and winds down slow now. No
more ticking. The comm cleaned up to a copper color and
has been getting darker the longer it runs - it's sort of a medium brown now.
It does show significant torque on both startup and shutoff - I
think that's a good thing - it shows that the armature is being accelerated and
decelerated srongly when power is applied and turned off. I
remember that there's one kind of sandpaper to avoid - emery? - because it
conducts electricity and can cause sparking. I used the cheapest
kind and had no problem.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod and Ken keep saying they will confine their NEDRA flames to
their NEDRA list, but they keep going back on their word. This is the sort
that they are. (I will simply rebut their flames when they do this.)
Tim Clevenger summed up the entire situation best when he said:
This sounds very fishy. So the board has voted in private to disband
the existing charter, fire a member while essentially under Marshal
Law, promises to form a committee to create a new charter at an
undisclosed date in the future, and now is acting without any
authority from its membership or an active charter to completely
redesign the classes? The teamsters would be proud.
Rod, Ken, Brian and Chip tore up the entire NEDRA charter and
threw it in the trash because they didn't want the board to vote on the new
conversion class rules they proposed and they didn't want to allow the
membership to comment on the new rules before they went into effect.
With no charter, it was anarchy (a dictatorship, actually.) Dean
re-instated the charter and is now in the process of "re-booting" NEDRA. He
is doing his very best to have a fair election. Brian, Rod, and Ken are
doing their very best to mess the whole thing up again. (I think they
realize that a good fraction of the NEDRA members are not going to re-elect
them. The negative campaign they are running will likely backfire. It
certainly is not good for the sport.)
The nominations will be final this Monday. The candidate
statements and ballots will go out (by certified mail) a few days after
that. All the candidates will get a copy of the membership list, once the
nominations are final. (Brian is demanding an advance copy, of course.)
Vote for the person that you feel will run NEDRA in the best
interest of the membership.
When the new folks are elected, I plan to step down as technical
director as soon as my replacement is selected. I have had more than enough
at this point. No sane person would want this job. ;^)
>>> How I ended up on the "wrong" side of all this. <<<
Folks that have been around for awhile will remember when I took
up the battle against the National Electrical Board for the rules they put
in the National Electrical Code regulating EV plug ins. These rules made it
virtually impossible (at the time) to legally plug in your home-built EV
into 240 volts. You could no longer legally use the same inexpensive 240
volt connectors that boats and motorhomes can use, but were forced to use
outrageously expensive connectors and charging systems. These rules were
influenced by the Magna-Charge folks in an attempt to corner the market on
EV charging.
I saw this as unfair to the conversion EV'ers so I put in my best
effort to fight the National Electrical Board.
Just like I opposed the NEC rules, I opposed the new NEDRA
conversion class rules for the same reason. They are unfair to the typical
conversion EV. They stifled innovation. They were biased against specific
competitors and favorable to other, better connected, competitors. (The PS
class was created for one specific competitor, for example.)
These new rules did not effect my bike as I race in a completely
different class. I took on some very powerful names while simply attempting
to keep the competition fair for the typical daily driver conversion. I had
nothing to gain and no hidden agenda in opposing these unfair rules. I have
been subjected to ruthless flames and mudslinging because of my very
logical opposition to the new conversion class rules.
The facts are that these folks went so far as to toss out the
entire NEDRA charter to ramrod these unfair rules though simply to avoid an
up or down vote of the board and a membership comment period. Had they been
willing to put the rules to an up or down vote of the board, and been
willing to wait just 30 days for member comment, we would not be in the
mess we are in now.
Bill Dube'
Happy to be know I'm going to be replaced as the technical
director. ;^)
Oops, I almost forgot to say this was a private post and I pushed
the wrong button. Too late now I guess. :^)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Rod,
One day back in 1968, I was looking a Popular Science magazine which had a
picture of one of there limited production proto type EVs, which were AMC's
type bodies which they install new front ends and sometime truck lids. They
were selling these at there cost to some utilities companies and technical
people who had the ability to be able to maintain and improve them.
This company was call the Electric Fuel Propulsion company which was base in
Troy Michigan at the time. I call them about the availability of there
EV's. They were producing a limited number of these EV's, so they have me
send them a resume, just like I was applying for job, and they will put me
on the next EV production.
In my resume, I went back to when I was 8 years old, when I was apprentice
in electrical science. I built my first over head electric trolley at the
time and thru time, work on all type of electric drive systems.
For about the 7 years, I would received there news letter and info on what
they are doing. One day in April 1976, they call me up, and said my car is
ready and waiting for me.
I went to Troy, and spent a week learning how to drive the EV, maintaining
and charging the batteries, maintain battery charts, how to replace a 2 volt
cell of the 90 cell battery pack, the chemistry of the batteries, and how to
break down the controller and assemble it using torque indicators on the
heat sink press packs.
My agreement is to keep them inform of the EV driving data while driving in
Montana with ambient temperature range from 50 below to 140 degree under
hood temperature. The speed the EV went every day which was about 60 mph
going up a steep 1 mile hill to work every day and what ampere it took. How
long it took to charge the battery pack at different ambient temperatures,
record the specific gravity per mile.
At that time this EV weigh 7850 lbs, which had 300 AH cobalt batteries. I
would make this up hill run every day which I would have a running start of
70 mph and then let it come down to 60 mph holding it at a maximum of 600
amps for about 1 minute. Normally on grade, it would be only 180 amps at 50
mph.
The maximum range up and down these grade would be 39.5 miles which was down
to 20%. Level constant speed city driving without any stops, which was a
loop drive around the city, was 78 miles which was double the range of the
hill climbing.
I was then break down the motor and controller after 10 years of driving.
Pull all the tops off the cells (which are call jars) and clean the battery
grids, replace all the plastic groove separators by sliding in new ones
while pushing out the others. They sent me only 3 cells that I thought need
replacing, because of the amount of grid material loss.
Breaking down the motor, the commentator was still in perfect shape, the
local motor shop said not to touch it, meaning having it turn or stone, just
clean it up, undercut it and micro mirror with a 4000 grit compound. The
silver brushes which are hard as tool steel where only worn down 1/2 way.
We saw one problem with one of the field windings, which was just pressing
against the inside of the motor end bell. This flatten out the wire and
left a bare spot. So I had motor enamel apply to all the windings at the
time.
Broke down the Cableform controller, test out all the components which were
all in specifications, clean and reassembled.
I than ran this EV the next ten years and did the same thing again. Except
this time, I replace all the batteries and put them in a fiberglass
insulated enclosure that was totally inside the car. These 2 volt cells are
so long, that they extended below the car which was hard to keep heated.
EFP company did not have the shorter cells at the time, so I used Exides 235
AH 6 volt batteries.
I no longer had to drive this steep hill any longer, because I am retire,
and only driving on level grade for about 5 mile a day which draws about 50
amperes from the battery.
Drove with these batteries for the next 7 years to 2002, then replace them
with Trojan T-145's which I have now. I change the Cableform controller
with a Zilla. In 2005, the motor field winding finally open and now the
motor is at a GE motor repair shop to get completely rebuilt. The only
thing that will not be replace is the housing, field forms and the stator
form.
This unit is now running a Warp 9 as a temporary motor. The maximum speed I
am driving with this motor is about 25 mph which shows about 200 amps which
is the the speed limit for city driving anyway.
The reason I won out getting the Transformer I over many others, was that
the work I did when I was 8 years old on my electric trolley work.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 9:28 AM
Subject: Transformer 1
> Roland,
> Just checking out the Apollo web site and found what
> looks like a photo of your car when it was new,
> http://www.apolloenergysystems.com/images/prev_model18.jpg
>
> they also have stats on all of their EV's here,
> http://www.apolloenergysystems.com/prev_mod_03.html
>
> Did you work at Apollo? How did you get involved with
> their EV's?
> Thanks,
> Rod
>
>
--- End Message ---
