EV Digest 5249
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Parallel Charging
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Geo EV battery results
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Better to Run Down or Better to Keep Charging as Opportunities Arise ?
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Better to Run Down or Better to Keep Charging as Opportunities Arise ?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Better to Run Down or Better to Keep Charging as Opportunities Arise
?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: more BS from Dean Grannes, Way, Way Off Topic, I will no longer
post after this
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Parallel Charging
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Geo EV battery results (somewhat long)
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: more BS from Dean Grannes, Way, Way Off Topic, I will no longer post
after this Comments, Same Here.
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Better to Run Down or Better to Keep Charging as Opportunities Arise ?
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Geo EV battery results (somewhat long)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: more BS from Dean Grannes, Way, Way Off Topic, I will no
longer post after this Comments, Same Here.
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: more BS from Dean Grannes, Way, Way Off Topic, I will no longer
post after this
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Parallel Charging
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Better to Run Down or Better to Keep Charging as Opportunities
Arise ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Hello Victor
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Better to Run Down or Better to Keep Charging as Opportunities
Arise ?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Parallel Charging
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Parallel Charging
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Parallel Charging
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Titling EV issue
by "Brian M. Sutin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Titling EV issue
by "Dr. Andy Mars" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Titling EV issue
by "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Titling EV issue
by "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> Given 3 isolated chargers and 2 parallel strings, would it work to
> hook them up as below? (NOTE: each cell in diagram represents multiple
> batteries.)
(Cleaning up your diagram a bit to improve readability)
_________ _____________ pack positive
| +|________| |
| | __|__+ __|__+
| charger | ___ ___
| 1 _|________| - | -
|_________| | |
_________ | |
| +|________| |
| | __|__+ __|__+
| charger | ___ ___
| 2 _|________| - | -
|_________| | |
_________ | |
| +|________| |
| | __|__+ __|__+
| charger | ___ ___
| 3 _|________| - | -
|_________| |_______|_____ pack negative
I think it would work, but slowly. Lead-acid batteries in parallel tend
to equalize to the same state of charge. But the rate that the do so is
rather slow; kind of like two buckets connected with a small-diameter
siphon hose.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like you have at least one bum battery. The hissing you heard was
probably that one reversing and venting. Careful, they can literally erupt
if you let them go too far in this direction.
IIRC the BAT Metros were sold as 84 volt cars, so yours probably has a
replacement controller. The 1231C-8601 is good for 96-144 volts. Since you
don't have a charger you can run anywhere in that range (depending on the
motor) though for better controller life I suggest not exceeding 132 volts.
Your best value will be with golf car batteries, which I suggest for low
operating cost. This is especially important when you're new to EVs because
we ALL murder our first battery packs (sometimes more than the first ;-).
It just doesn't pay to buy expensive batteries up front.
The car will be overloaded if you put in too many. You >may< be able to use
sixteen 6-volt, 105-minute batteries. US Battery, Interstate Workaholic,
and Trojan are good brands. I don't recommend Exide.
If the car can stand the extra weight (doubtful), you might go to 18 GC
batteries. The nice thing about a 108v pack is that you can charge it with
3 used 36v golf car chargers (cheap). Of course the chargers will weigh so
much and take up so much space that you'll have to leave them in the garage!
Another possibility is to use 8 to 10 12 volt floor sweeper or deep cycle
marine batteries. These will get the weight down a little (sweeper) or a
lot (marine), but the marine especially will have short lives as they are
not built for the kind of current your car needs to accelerate or even to
cruise.
You may want to move quickly on this. Regrettably the price of batteries is
on an upward trend because demand for lead is high (apparently a lot of the
demand is from China). Battery amortization is the main cost of driving an
EV so with gasoline costs rising this is a lousy time for battery costs to
do the same thing. But I digress.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, what is "overcharging" ?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Mar 2006 at 20:13, jmygann wrote:
> So, what is "overcharging" ?
Exactly what it says. Charging a battery too much.
Every battery has a charge efficiency factor. It is charged (theoretically)
when your charger puts into it as many amp-hours as you took out, multiplied
by the efficiency factor.
This holds true for a single cell. But batteries are almost always series
strings of several cells. In practice, some cells hog a little more of the
charge, some less, and so periodically the battery needs to be "equalized."
Equalization is a deliberate overcharge which forces current through the
already-charged cells so the undercharged cells can reach full charge. It
may be done manually by the user, or automatically by the charger. Most
chargers do a little equalization on each charge cycle, on the theory that a
little overcharging is usually better than undercharging. Simple chargers
tend to do a lot of it.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jmygann wrote:
> So, what is "overcharging"?
Simply put, "overcharging" is charging a battery that is already full.
Most cheap chargers don't shut off; they blindly keep charging a full
battery forever. The battery converts the excess energy into heat and
gas. The heat shortens the battery's life.
For flooded types, the gas vents to the atmosphere. It causes a loss of
water, but it can be replaced (if the user pays attention). You can't
let it get too low, and must use distilled water to avoid adding any
contaminants.
Sealed types can s-l-o-w-l-y recombine the gas back into water if the
overcharge rate is low and you stop charging soon enough. But the case
pressurizes during overcharging, and the safety vents can leak. Thus
overcharging still causes some water loss. When they have lost too much
water, they die.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>He (like me) is a rules-oriented person. Without rules, there is just
anarchy.
...and yet, here he is violating the 'rules' of this EVDL. The list
police have asked repeatedly, that these discussions be taken off list.
From David Roden, EV List Assistant Administrator:
This dispute is repelling people who just want
to build EVs, the primary purpose of the list. I am asking you all to
PLEASE take it somewhere else.
The appropriate place for this has been set up at the Yahoo NEDRA
discussion group:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA/
More from Bill:
I opposed the new NEDRA conversion class rule....They are unfair to
the typical conversion EV. They stifled innovation. They were biased
against specific competitors and favorable to other, better connected,
competitors. (The PS class was created for one specific competitor,
for example.)
The facts can be found here:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA/message/53
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, Lee, I should have been more specific. These are two strings of TS
cells, not lead-acid. One string comprises 200Ah cells, the other 90Ah
cells. I was thinking of attaching the chargers to the 200Ah strings. I
didn't know if this was a good way, or if I should attach the two strings at
all four junction points--and if they were indeed attached at multiple
points, how that would affect discharge during driving.
The chargers, by the way, can put out up to 51A each.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 12:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Parallel Charging
Bill Dennis wrote:
> Given 3 isolated chargers and 2 parallel strings, would it work to
> hook them up as below? (NOTE: each cell in diagram represents multiple
> batteries.)
(Cleaning up your diagram a bit to improve readability)
_________ _____________ pack positive
| +|________| |
| | __|__+ __|__+
| charger | ___ ___
| 1 _|________| - | -
|_________| | |
_________ | |
| +|________| |
| | __|__+ __|__+
| charger | ___ ___
| 2 _|________| - | -
|_________| | |
_________ | |
| +|________| |
| | __|__+ __|__+
| charger | ___ ___
| 3 _|________| - | -
|_________| |_______|_____ pack negative
I think it would work, but slowly. Lead-acid batteries in parallel tend
to equalize to the same state of charge. But the rate that the do so is
rather slow; kind of like two buckets connected with a small-diameter
siphon hose.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
IIRC the BAT Metros were sold as 84 volt cars, so yours probably has a
replacement controller. The 1231C-8601 is good for 96-144 volts. Since you
don't have a charger you can run anywhere in that range (depending on the
motor) though for better controller life I suggest not exceeding 132 volts.
This is interesting because someone recently contacted me writing that he has
a BAT Metro like mine. He was thinking the OEM was 72 volts. Also I have a file
from what appears to have been an EERE EV America testing program in the
mid-90's in which they tested a BAT metro with an almost matching VIN #
(basically i think its likely my metro and a vin # typo in the file). They
apparently tested it at 132 volts with 22 Optimas. That seems to correlate with
the battery sizes the dimensions of the battery boxes currently in my Geo
appear to be made for. But I could be wrong about this. The battery boxes
measure as follows:
The 2 levels of the main battery box are approximately:
-lower level: 31"L x 14.5"W x 8"H.
-upper level: 41"L x 21"W x 8"H.
The rear battery box is about 21"L x 21"W x 8"H.
My guess is the Yuasas aren't going to work out all that great. But I would
like to be more sure of this before buying new batteries. One of my challenges
then would be to select a battery with physical dimensions that will be a
satisfactory fit with the existing battery boxes. It would be nice if they were
short enough so the tops of the battery boxes could be fastened down. But I
guess this isn't essential. The small batts are nice in terms of being
relatively light but it wasn't all that much fun wiring up something more
complicated then a simple series string. I'll keep the 144v Curtis for now so
that leads to a series string of 11 larger ampacity batts. No charger came with
the Geo although I do have a 30 amp Russco.
Your best value will be with golf car batteries, which I suggest for low
operating cost. This is especially important when you're new to EVs because we
ALL murder our first battery packs (sometimes more than the first ;-). It just
doesn't pay to buy expensive batteries up front.
Yes I am hearing this. The thing is I am fussy and picky about battery
cleanliness. I do have 16 Trojan T105s in my 1980 Jet Electra Van 600 which i
have owned since last spring. Since then I had resolved never to buy flooded
batteries. The off-gassing and stinkiness of floodeds has been a significant
negative and I had decided to 'open up the wallet' for more expensive sealed
batteries even though it would likely result in less range. I did consider
additional fan and ventilation schemes but at the end of the day I had elected
to go with sealed batts. I do charge the T105s with a Zivan and deliberately
avoid the gassing stage by unplugging it by the time it reaches the flashing
yellow stage and checking the pack voltage just prior to doing so. So I'm
pretty sure I'm not overcharging and likely undercharging. It sounds like this
will likely result in a shorter cycle life for the T105s but that's fine. In
the Geo I had decided to maintain a cleaner battery box environment t!
hen
what's in the Electra Van.
By contrast the two 33ah B&B battery company AGMs that I purchased new 18
months ago for my EGO 2 E-motorbike have been great with no messiness and no
discernible odor so far. One disappointment with the surplus Hawkers and used
Yuasas has been the disagreeable odor of at least some of them even though they
are supposedly sealed batteries. I just want to make sure I'm not under any
illusions that if I purchase a new VRLA pack that the sealing valves really
will stay sealed and there won't be a discernible odor as long as they are not
overcharged. This raises some questions:
-How much variability amongst makes and models of VRLA/SLA batteries is there
in terms of the quality of construction of the sealing valves and their ability
to retain the seal over time as long as the batteries are properly charged and
not over charged? I do recognize that one still shouldn't try to install the
batteries in a totally sealed container.
-In practice what have EVers experiences been? In other words, if one doesn't
overcharge, can one expect their VRLA/SLA pack to be odor-free / emissions
free? Does this depend on the specific make & model VRLA/SLA?
If the car can stand the extra weight [......]
The suspension does appear to have been upgraded significantly for more
weight bearing capacity.
Another possibility is to use 8 to 10 12 volt floor sweeper or deep cycle
marine batteries. These will get the weight down a little (sweeper) or a lot
(marine), but the marine especially will have short lives as they are not built
for the kind of current your car needs to accelerate or even to
cruise.
This is of interest. I have done a *lot* of battery research on line. I don't
know what it has amounted to yet but I seem to recall seeing batteries that
were classified as marine deep cycle and floor sweeper and which were also
sealed. What would people suggest in the way of make and model, ampacity, and
physical dimensions?
You may want to move quickly on this. Regrettably the price of batteries is
on an upward trend because demand for lead is high (apparently a lot of the
demand is from China).
Yes I do if I need to abandon the Yuasas (is it already apparent to others
that I need to do so?).
Best regards,
Mark Freidberg
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob,
NEDRA is in fact alive and well.
We have the High Voltage Nationals coming up in May in Joliet, Illinois
and the 6th Power of DC coming up in June.
I'm hoping John Wayland will do another Wayland Invitational this year.
So no matter what happens, we have at least two more events this year.
June 3rd is the definite date for the Power of DC in Hagerstown
Maryland.
And I have alot of other NEDRA work on my plate as well. I'm designing
a new merchandise page and Photo Gallery of NEDRA members cars.
Organizations grow and change over the years and its through the
successful effort of the members that make the organization. The best
thing for people to do to keep NEDRA alive is to keep building and
racing their EVs, come out to the events and spread the word about
electric drag racing. Tell people about the NEDRA 100 mph Club. Also
join the NEDRA Yahoo Group.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
Bottom line here, I'll get down from my soapbox, now.NEDRA is worth
saving, I don't know where to begin, or how can I help?Or WE, as the
List is
the EV Driving force. With the Oilies in the other corner we need a tad
of
unity, not OVER unity here.We have a tough enough row to hoe here
without
desention in the ranks.Will talk this up at our EAA Meeting today. But
CT
and Mass 'aint Drag racing heaven.CT Dragway is history. Sigh!
Want to say " SEEYA" at Power of DC , Joliet, Woodburn, all those
enchanting places.
Bob, cheering from the stands, Cam Corder going!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lead-acid
---------
[........]The deeper the discharge, the sooner you should recharge. A few
weeks won't matter if it's only slightly discharged, but a few hours is a long
time if it was deeply discharged.
This is interesting. I'm just wondering, how is it known that this is really
the case?
Nickel Cadmium
--------------
[............] Nicads are very tolerant of overcharing. You can overcharge
them at a 0.1C rate for months. All that happens is that they get warm (which
shortens life a little), and if it's a flooded nicad, it loses water (which can
be replaced).
Are there any non-flooded Nicads suitable for an EV application? I have been
shying away from Nicads because of the Cadmium. But if I knew they were
properly manufactured environmentally speaking and would also be recycled same,
then I'd seriously consider them for my Geo.
Best regards,
Mark Freidberg
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Mar 2006 at 14:52, Mark Freidberg wrote:
> The off-gassing and stinkiness of floodeds has been a
> significant negative ...
I've heard others complain about this, but I've had very little trouble with
it. Usually a sulfrous odor from a battery means that you're severely
overcharging it.
> How much variability amongst makes and models of VRLA/SLA batteries is
> there in terms of the quality of construction of the sealing valves and
> their ability to retain the seal over time as long as the batteries are
> properly charged and not over charged?
The valves MUST release excessive pressure or the battery will explode. If
you overcharge them so that they gas faster than the catalyst can recombine
the gases, they will vent. That's true regardless of brand.
> if one doesn't overcharge, can one expect their VRLA/SLA pack to be
> odor-free / emissions free?
It's true that floodies can emit a slight acid mist when they gas. This is
usually nearly odorless. Proper ventilation with a brushless blower and a
wipedown when you water the batteries usually is all that's required to
manage it.
No properly maintained battery will stink. I suppose it's possible that for
some reason you're just especially sensitive to the acid mist from the
T105s. If you have VRR batteries that are generating detectable gas, you
are probably severely overcharging them. Your Russco probably isn't set up
to charge them properly. What model is it?
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The deeper the discharge, the sooner you should recharge. A few
> weeks won't matter if it's only slightly discharged, but a few hours is a
> long time if it was deeply discharged.
Mark Freidberg responded:
> This is interesting. I'm just wondering, how is it known that this is really
> the case? [That lead batteries should be recharged promptly]
Lead batteries have been around a very long time. Electrochemists (and
informed users) know them pretty well, or should. ;-)
The lead sulfate which forms on the negative electrode during discharge is
converted back to elemental lead when the battery is charged. If the
battery sits too long in a discharged state, part of the lead sulfate forms
crystals which resist being reconverted to lead and eventually detatch from
the grids. These crystals represent lost capacity. This process is called
sufation and, regardless of what the snake oil peddlers tell you, it is
irreversible. Prompt recharge is the best way to minimize sulfation.
PS - At the risk of sounding paternal, I should mention that Lee Hart knows
his stuff. When he tells you something, you can believe it. ;-)
> Are there any non-flooded Nicads suitable for an EV application?
I don't know of any.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chip,
A private note.
Thank you for a well thought out positive post.
I need to learn from your example.
Bill Dube'
At 04:06 PM 3/11/2006, you wrote:
Hi Bob,
NEDRA is in fact alive and well.
We have the High Voltage Nationals coming up in May in Joliet, Illinois
and the 6th Power of DC coming up in June.
I'm hoping John Wayland will do another Wayland Invitational this year.
So no matter what happens, we have at least two more events this year.
June 3rd is the definite date for the Power of DC in Hagerstown Maryland.
And I have alot of other NEDRA work on my plate as well. I'm designing a
new merchandise page and Photo Gallery of NEDRA members cars.
Organizations grow and change over the years and its through the
successful effort of the members that make the organization. The best
thing for people to do to keep NEDRA alive is to keep building and racing
their EVs, come out to the events and spread the word about electric drag
racing. Tell people about the NEDRA 100 mph Club. Also join the NEDRA
Yahoo Group.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
Bottom line here, I'll get down from my soapbox, now.NEDRA is worth
saving, I don't know where to begin, or how can I help?Or WE, as the List is
the EV Driving force. With the Oilies in the other corner we need a tad of
unity, not OVER unity here.We have a tough enough row to hoe here without
desention in the ranks.Will talk this up at our EAA Meeting today. But CT
and Mass 'aint Drag racing heaven.CT Dragway is history. Sigh!
Want to say " SEEYA" at Power of DC , Joliet, Woodburn, all those
enchanting places.
Bob, cheering from the stands, Cam Corder going!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll second this. :)
Mike G.
Hi Roderick and all,
I have already resigned as the NEDRA president. Now after what I
just read here I will no longer post to the EV list. The whole EV
movement in my personal perspective has gone so far off course in
this country with people like Dean Grannes trying to destroy EV Drag
Racing that I will no longer be a member of this community.
Roderick Wilde
I think most would agree that you have been an inspiration and help to
so many people on this list. I hope that you'll stick around and
continue to inspire the EV community!
-Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> Sorry, Lee, I should have been more specific. These are two strings
> of TS cells, not lead-acid.
Then I think you have to parallel the cells. I don't know if you can
depend on lithiums to self-balance at the same state of charge just by
parallelling them.
Also, with any lithium chemistry, you need individual cell monitoring
and limiting.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> The deeper the discharge, the sooner you should recharge. A few
>> weeks won't matter if it's only slightly discharged, but a few hours
>> is a long time if it was deeply discharged.
Mark Freidberg wrote:
> This is interesting. I'm just wondering, how is it known that this
> is really the case?
>From testing the behaviour of batteries.
If you deeply discharge a lead-acid battery, and promptly recharge it,
its charging behaviour is normal, and you get back (almost) all of its
amphour capacity on the next cycle.
If you deeply discharge it, and let it sit dead for a long period,
you'll find its charging behavior abnormal. First, you'll notice it has
a higher apparent resistance -- it draws less current for any give
charging voltage. Second, you'll find that it takes longer to reach full
charge. Third, it won't deliver nearly as many amphours on the next
cycle.
These effects gradually go away over subsequent charge/discharge cycles
(as long as you recharge promptly, and don't let it sit around dead
again).
Shallower discharges show the same effect, but to a less significant
degree.
Here's what I understand is happening: When you discharge, you convert
lead oxide into lead sulfate crystals. Initially, these lead sulfate
crystals are very small, and random. But, crystals tend to grow and
change over time. They slowly change from many small crystals to a few
large ones.
When you recharge, you are converting lead sulfate back into lead oxide.
But the larger lead sulfate crystals are hard to break down; they have
less surface area per unit weight, and take more current over a longer
period to dissolve.
If you wait too long, and the cell is very dead, the crystals get so
large that they will never shrink completely again. They actually warp
the plates, and can break and fall off it completely. They represent a
permanent loss of active material, which ties up lead and acid in the
lead sulfate "sludge" that collects in nooks and crannies in the plates,
and in the bottom of the battery.
>> Nickel Cadmium
>> --------------
> Are there any non-flooded Nicads suitable for an EV application?
There have been some, but they're rare. Most large nicads are flooded,
as it is so much easier to add water than to try to keep it sealed in a
cell.
> I have been shying away from Nicads because of the Cadmium. But if I
> knew they were properly manufactured environmentally speaking and
> would also be recycled same, then I'd seriously consider them for
> my Geo.
Same here. In Europe, they routinely recycle niccads (in fact, I think
it's required by law in many countries). In the USA, the laws are weak
and unenforced. Most nicads are just thrown out in the garbage, probably
going into some landfill to eventually poison the ground water. I don't
know where you could take large amounts of nicads to be sure that they
were properly recycled. In fact, you'd probably have all sorts of
trouble just trying to ship them anywhere.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I already replied on this list: I don't.
Victor
Dale Curren wrote:
Do you offer a controller for these motors?
http://www.mavin.com/index.php?crn=1&rn=362&action=show_detail
Dale Curren
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
...
Nickel Metal Hydride
--------------------
Nimh are a lot like nicads. The main difference is that they do not
tolerate overcharging.
The NiMH application on Cobasys' site suggests that their NiMH are tolerant
to overcharge as long as they keep up with converting extra
to heat. The rate of the charging current after they are full must be
low though. If anyone has better data, I'd love to learn what's available.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
Sorry, Lee, I should have been more specific. These are two strings of TS
cells, not lead-acid. One string comprises 200Ah cells, the other 90Ah
cells. I was thinking of attaching the chargers to the 200Ah strings. I
didn't know if this was a good way, or if I should attach the two strings at
all four junction points--and if they were indeed attached at multiple
points, how that would affect discharge during driving.
Dennis,
In your shoes I'd make buddy pairs: 200Ah + 90Ah = 290Ah "cells"
and then connect them in series. They will not share the current equally,
they can't and don't have to, but whether they share proportional to
their capacities is out of your control. Granted, 200Ah ones will do
most the work and they should, and it is the simplest practical
thing. Put clampers on each 290Ah "cell", but still make sure the
charger(s) throttle back to 2-3A when first clamper is on.
This may present problem because 3A is finishing charge current for
290Ah "cell" so you may end up sitting with 3A charging current for very
long time. I hope with 290Ah you won't need 100% SOC for your commutes.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill, Victor,
This is what I did with 200AH and 100 A-h cells. It would seem that with
the wide and relatively linear voltage change with state of charge, they
would share well according to their capacity. The voltage clampers would
make sure that no cell saw too high a voltage and got damaged from that.
However, when I complained to Thunder Sky last year about the big drop in
capacity I have already, they blamed it on having the 2 different size cells
in parallel. I asked for an explanation and emailed back and forth a few
times about that, but still couldn't see their explanation as being valid.
They hadn't said any warning about that when I metioned paralleling the
cells to Brendan early on.
I think that my last 28 100 A-hr cells from November 2004, that I use with
the 8 DCS-75 AGM batteries in the hatchback, are better quality. I also
bought the Stybrook cell monitoring modules to have low voltage protection
as well as over-voltage. I have installed them and am about to wire the
outputs so I will shut off the lithium pack contactor in case of an over or
under-voltage condition on 1 or more cells.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: Parallel Charging
Bill Dennis wrote:
Sorry, Lee, I should have been more specific. These are two strings of
TS
cells, not lead-acid. One string comprises 200Ah cells, the other 90Ah
cells. I was thinking of attaching the chargers to the 200Ah strings. I
didn't know if this was a good way, or if I should attach the two strings
at
all four junction points--and if they were indeed attached at multiple
points, how that would affect discharge during driving.
Dennis,
In your shoes I'd make buddy pairs: 200Ah + 90Ah = 290Ah "cells"
and then connect them in series. They will not share the current equally,
they can't and don't have to, but whether they share proportional to
their capacities is out of your control. Granted, 200Ah ones will do
most the work and they should, and it is the simplest practical
thing. Put clampers on each 290Ah "cell", but still make sure the
charger(s) throttle back to 2-3A when first clamper is on.
This may present problem because 3A is finishing charge current for
290Ah "cell" so you may end up sitting with 3A charging current for very
long time. I hope with 290Ah you won't need 100% SOC for your commutes.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All right, guys, how about this, then:
I also have a non-isolated charger that can put out 20A. At charging time,
I disconnect the two strings and charge the 200Ah cells with the three
isolated chargers at 50A, and the 90Ah cells with the non-isolated charger
at 15A. Both strings should take about the same amount of time to charge.
And since I've installed clampers on each of the cells, they should all be
at around 4.25V at the end of charging, so the two strings should be within
a few tenths of a volt OCV of each other. At that point I connect them back
together, and they equalize that small voltage, probably without too much of
a current inrush between them.
Would that work?
Thanks again.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Doug Hartley
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 9:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Parallel Charging
Bill, Victor,
This is what I did with 200AH and 100 A-h cells. It would seem that with
the wide and relatively linear voltage change with state of charge, they
would share well according to their capacity. The voltage clampers would
make sure that no cell saw too high a voltage and got damaged from that.
However, when I complained to Thunder Sky last year about the big drop in
capacity I have already, they blamed it on having the 2 different size cells
in parallel. I asked for an explanation and emailed back and forth a few
times about that, but still couldn't see their explanation as being valid.
They hadn't said any warning about that when I metioned paralleling the
cells to Brendan early on.
I think that my last 28 100 A-hr cells from November 2004, that I use with
the 8 DCS-75 AGM batteries in the hatchback, are better quality. I also
bought the Stybrook cell monitoring modules to have low voltage protection
as well as over-voltage. I have installed them and am about to wire the
outputs so I will shut off the lithium pack contactor in case of an over or
under-voltage condition on 1 or more cells.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: Parallel Charging
> Bill Dennis wrote:
>> Sorry, Lee, I should have been more specific. These are two strings of
>> TS
>> cells, not lead-acid. One string comprises 200Ah cells, the other 90Ah
>> cells. I was thinking of attaching the chargers to the 200Ah strings. I
>> didn't know if this was a good way, or if I should attach the two strings
>> at
>> all four junction points--and if they were indeed attached at multiple
>> points, how that would affect discharge during driving.
>
> Dennis,
>
> In your shoes I'd make buddy pairs: 200Ah + 90Ah = 290Ah "cells"
> and then connect them in series. They will not share the current equally,
> they can't and don't have to, but whether they share proportional to
> their capacities is out of your control. Granted, 200Ah ones will do
> most the work and they should, and it is the simplest practical
> thing. Put clampers on each 290Ah "cell", but still make sure the
> charger(s) throttle back to 2-3A when first clamper is on.
>
> This may present problem because 3A is finishing charge current for
> 290Ah "cell" so you may end up sitting with 3A charging current for very
> long time. I hope with 290Ah you won't need 100% SOC for your commutes.
>
> Victor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I titled my EV, the policeman refused to note down that it was electric.
He said that this was not his job. At the DMV, they just believed me that it
was electric and gave me a no-smog title. I also got the ZEV parking sticker
without showing proof. Sadly, the California freeway lane sticker requires
an inspection.
Brian
http://www.skewray.com/alfa
> Last week I titled my EV in California ...
>
> The vehicle title was from out of state I had a form signed by a peace
> officer (city policeman) to verify the vin , make , model. He also
> noted that it was electric powered.
>
> I filled out a statement of facts that it was electric
> powered.Exempting smog test .
>
> Went to DMV with title and forms (no vehicle). Paid fees and walked
> out with new plates and regis for a year .
>
> Got pink slip today with with fuel marked as E instead of G
--
Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D. Space System Engineering and Optical Design
Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I didn't realize there was a different sticker for ZEV Parking, in
California, other than the HOV Freeway Lane sticker - what form do you need
to fill out for the ZEV Parking?
Thanks, in advance, for your e-ply.
Until next INTERNEcTion -
Take care (and spread it around) -
Peace,
Andy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian M. Sutin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: Titling EV issue
>
> When I titled my EV, the policeman refused to note down that it was
electric.
> He said that this was not his job. At the DMV, they just believed me that
it
> was electric and gave me a no-smog title. I also got the ZEV parking
sticker
> without showing proof. Sadly, the California freeway lane sticker
requires
> an inspection.
>
> Brian
> http://www.skewray.com/alfa
>
> > Last week I titled my EV in California ...
> >
> > The vehicle title was from out of state I had a form signed by a peace
> > officer (city policeman) to verify the vin , make , model. He also
> > noted that it was electric powered.
> >
> > I filled out a statement of facts that it was electric
> > powered.Exempting smog test .
> >
> > Went to DMV with title and forms (no vehicle). Paid fees and walked
> > out with new plates and regis for a year .
> >
> > Got pink slip today with with fuel marked as E instead of G
>
> --
> Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D. Space System Engineering and Optical Design
> Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm#vehicles
John Grigg
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dr. Andy Mars
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 5:38 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Titling EV issue
I didn't realize there was a different sticker for ZEV Parking, in
California, other than the HOV Freeway Lane sticker - what form do you
need to fill out for the ZEV Parking?
Thanks, in advance, for your e-ply.
Until next INTERNEcTion -
Take care (and spread it around) -
Peace,
Andy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian M. Sutin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: Titling EV issue
>
> When I titled my EV, the policeman refused to note down that it was
electric.
> He said that this was not his job. At the DMV, they just believed me
that
it
> was electric and gave me a no-smog title. I also got the ZEV parking
sticker
> without showing proof. Sadly, the California freeway lane sticker
requires
> an inspection.
>
> Brian
> http://www.skewray.com/alfa
>
> > Last week I titled my EV in California ...
> >
> > The vehicle title was from out of state I had a form signed by a
peace
> > officer (city policeman) to verify the vin , make , model. He also
> > noted that it was electric powered.
> >
> > I filled out a statement of facts that it was electric
> > powered.Exempting smog test .
> >
> > Went to DMV with title and forms (no vehicle). Paid fees and walked
> > out with new plates and regis for a year .
> >
> > Got pink slip today with with fuel marked as E instead of G
>
> --
> Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D. Space System Engineering and Optical Design
> Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, sent the wrong link at first. Maybe I should learn to read...
:-)
ZEV Parking
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/forms/reg/reg4048.pdf
John Grigg
.I didn't realize there was a different sticker for ZEV Parking, in
California, other than the HOV .Freeway Lane sticker - what form do you
need to fill out for the ZEV Parking?.
.
.Thanks, in advance, for your e-ply.
.
.Until next INTERNEcTion -
.
.Take care (and spread it around) -
.
.Peace,
. Andy
--- End Message ---
