EV Digest 5260
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Cheap charger, I resemble that!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Large AH SLAs available with total height of 8" or less?
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Testing Contactors
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Testing Contactors
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Large AH SLAs available with total height of 8" or less?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Large AH SLAs available with total height of 8" or less?
by kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Can some one build a small motor controller?
by Jim Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Large AH SLAs available with total height of 8" or less?
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Get a cheap body repair:Was Solectria Force., GOT a loving home.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Solectria Force., GOT a loving home.
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Large AH SLAs available with total height of 8" or less?
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Large AH SLAs available with total height of 8" or less?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Large AH SLAs available with total height of 8" or less?
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Testing Contactors
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Large AH SLAs available with total height of 8" or less?
by Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Cheap charger, I resemble that!
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Large AH SLAs available with total height of 8" or less?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Testing Contactors
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Can some one build a small motor controller?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Cheap charger, I resemble that!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) slightly OT ..but generally IMPORTANT to the EV Community - Indirectly
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) A Force broken in San Francisco
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: A Force broken in San Francisco
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: A Force broken in San Francisco
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: Cheap charger, I resemble that!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> > Bob Rice wrote:
> >> I charged for YEARS with a surplus Variac and 5 dollar bridge recton-
> >> Fire. Yes Classic Bad Boy...
> >
> >
> > PS, I don't know if you lay awake thinking of these, or they just fall
> > out of your fingers, but I love the double entendres in your posts!
> > --
> I meet Bob at the Battery beach brun out and spend some time with him the
> next day , I'm happy to say he talkes the same as he writes , along with a
> very very long EV histroy .
> Steve Clunn
> Hi EVerybody:
English is a fun language, you can twist it about, make up your own
words, like a fuffily cat, long hair, and the EV vocabulary, used here.
I didn't realize the Bad Boy definitions, glad to be streightened out,
like 3rd world chargers, a true Bab Boy is just a 'stench, from the smell,
chord, as a dropping resister. Now that ya mention it at work, the outlets I
wired in were on the output to a big ass transformer to the trailers that
pass for "Perminent" buildings on their property. Maybe trailers have to
have that isolation circuit, by code?So I never got bitten there, just at
home with the non isolated setup. Seems the PFC is a bit more benign than a
Variac Bad Boy?Havent gotten zapped by it yet.But I KNOW it 'aint isolated
as I tried, by mistake, to run them both. Got a short circus! Tripped
breakers! Maybe if I had turned the BB plug around? Didn't care to try after
that Zorch effect!Would that work, anyhow?
seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are there any sealed lead acid batteries of over 80ah available with a total
height of 8" or less?
Mark
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Evan. They are sealed contactors. I checked the resistance, and on
both they are 0.16 ohms. The datasheet says they should have max resistance
of 0.0003 ohms. Hmmm... Either they are bad units, or I am just measuring
the resistance in the contacts, and connection hardware.
BTW I am using a Fluke 189 to measure the resistance. Is there a better
method?
Thanks
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Evan Tuer
Sent: March 16, 2006 7:02 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Testing Contactors
On 3/16/06, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I recently purchase brand new contactors from eBay. They are brand
> new, but I got them for such a good price, I am a little concerned
> that they are seconds or defective.
>
> 1) is this a valid concern?
> 2) how do I test them?
If they are "open" contactors like albright, a visual inspection and
checking that it works when applying the correct voltage to the coil will
do.
If they are sealed, do the same but check for a (close to) zero-ohm reading
across the contacts whilst power is applied.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/18/06, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks Evan. They are sealed contactors. I checked the resistance, and on
> both they are 0.16 ohms. The datasheet says they should have max resistance
> of 0.0003 ohms. Hmmm... Either they are bad units, or I am just measuring
> the resistance in the contacts, and connection hardware.
>
> BTW I am using a Fluke 189 to measure the resistance. Is there a better
> method?
Yes, you'll be doing well to measure less than an ohm accurately even
with a very good multimeter.
If you have a car battery, and a clamp-ammeter, you could pass a large
current through the contacts and measure the voltage drop across the
terminals with your meter. If you use cheap jump-leads or something
to make the circuit, a few hundred amps will flow and will quickly
heat up the cables - but if you're quicker you can read off the
current and the voltage drop, and R=V/I.
I'm sure they'll be OK though :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark,
This would have to be a battery with a Reserve Capacity of 192 minutes at 25
minutes. This is normally listed as Res.@ 25. Ampere hour is the measure of
time a battery can deliver at 5 amperes.
To convert the reserve Capacity to ampere-hour:
192 min. / 60 = 3.2 hrs.
Then....
3.2 hr. x 25 amps = 80 amp-hrs.
The battery would deliver 5 amperes for 16 hours. ( 80/5=16)
If you increase the ampere, the ampere-hour is less, therefore for 80 ah at
20 amps, you would need a Reserved Capacity rating of 240 mins. at 25 amps.
(240 min./60) x 25 amps = 100 amp-hrs.
The 100 ah will deliver 5 amperes for 20 hours, but may only delivered 80 ah
at 20 amperes for 4 hours. (20 x 4 = 80)
So in your search for a battery with a height at 8 inches, look for a
reserved capacity of 192 minutes minutes minimum.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Freidberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 8:50 AM
Subject: Large AH SLAs available with total height of 8" or less?
> Are there any sealed lead acid batteries of over 80ah available with a
> total height of 8" or less?
>
> Mark
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail
> Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Univeral Batteries has 90 and 110 AH AGM batteries which are 7" wide. I
suppose you could lay them on their sides.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jacob wrote:
I need a motor controller that takes in 276VDC nom.(320V max), and puts out
about 96VDC at 8A cont. and about 10 A peak to control my 1/2 HP power
steering motor. It also needs to take in 12VDC from my ignition to turn the
motor off when the ignition is off.
Any leads here?
Nothing with these specs seem to exist already made.
Thanks
Jacob Harris
Jacob,
I've been reading all of this talk about a motor controller.
I've finally decided to get into it. How about if I take
a whack at designing and building a controller? I have been
building power converters for many years but not this high
power or high voltage, and I know that causes many issues.
It will give me a chance to expand my horizons :-) It would
also give you an exact match to your needs not some kludge.
Maybe some others can use it, too.
It doesn't seem like a big problem (except for the voltage).
For the big (expensive) parts there is only the IGBT > 30 A
is around $5, high speed freewheel diode is about $5. I can
get prototype double side plated through holes circuit
boards for about $20. The parts list should be maybe
$75-$100, that is pretty cheap.
My problem would be testing. I don't have a motor or
batteries to test with.
We start with the requirements:
Vin 200-320 volts, and 12 V
(what should happen when you are outside this)
Iout 10 amps
(Again, what should happen when this is not the case)
Startup issues? (remote enable)
EMC issues? (inrush current limiting)
Isolation?
Motor inductance, need an external inductor?
Also is it possible to make it adaptive to the steering
load? That would be cool.
Jim Phillips
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone done this before, position AGM batteries on their sides in an onroad
EV?
Mark
kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Univeral Batteries has 90 and 110 AH AGM batteries which are 7" wide. I
suppose you could lay them on their sides.
---------------------------------
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Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
I DID pay bux to buy and haul it up to CT and about 600 in structural
repair to the chassis, so it could be roadworthy someday.
I don't know why you guys don't take advantage of the clean cars in
California. YOu can get a rust free body virtully for free if not a few
hundred. The shipping would be cheaper than a beater from the rusty east.
I'd be glad to be a broker to do this for a small fee. Of course they
wouldn't be running but then you have the good components and the rusty
cars. We have the good bodies and worn out motors. I''d bet you could even
get a running car for under a thousand that might make it back if you fly
out to get it. Just a thought. Lawrence Rhodes..........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just got back from my journey to meet Bob Rice and p/u the solectria
force-( type of car I am most recently obsessed with in my wifes
words).After looking at it in the daylight I think I might try to put it
back together and get some paperwork for it and on the road.Seems to be
mostly there. I am g having the gearbox on my 94 model force rebuilt by a
local machine shop since the one in this car is all different and not belt
drive type
Thanx Bob for the car, the hospitality and sharing just a little of your
ev knowledge of 40 yrs w/ me. Mike Young
94 solectria force(temporarily resting)
95 solectria force(driving daily)
and now Bobs 90? force(will be reassembled)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: Solectria Force., GOT a loving home.
> Hi EVerybody;
>
> The Force has a new home! Mike Young made the trek to Corrupticut
> yesterday, with a traditional breakdown. He needed a new Fuel Pump for his
> Crapsler van, tow vehicle, but DID make it by 9pm. Gees a 12 hour trip!
From
> Rochester. He coulda flown to China in that time by jet, or Chicago by
> Amtrak!
>
> Thanks guys for the responces, wish I had, well, not really, a yard
full
> to give away to keep the Cause going here. Mike came in got warmed up and
I
> spun a few Woodburn Vids from the John Bryan collection. My newer stuff
> wasnt just stuff it in the VCR and hit 'Play", so I dug out the historical
> stuff. White Zombie running THOUSAND amps, no 2400 stuff! Lottsa cars that
> seem to have faded into EV history. But the progress! Great, almost as
much
> fun as the Vipers getting blown away!We blew them 'way away, I guess?
> Haven't seen any lately, just poky Corvettes, JW has for an evening
> snack<g>!
>
> So thanks for the offers, one kind fellow offered a few bux EVen.I just
> wouldn't have felt " Right" taking bux for James Worden's gift vehicle,
that
> they gave to me to think I would fix it up. But if SOMEBODY else can or
> will, I feel better than if it just sits in my shed, for
months-years.Other
> stuff? well, I may ask a few bux for, like if I get the 87 Sentra going
> again, I DID pay bux to buy and haul it up to CT and about 600 in
structural
> repair to the chassis, so it could be roadworthy someday.
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 8:17 AM
> Subject: Re: Solectria Force., want's a loving home.
>
>
> > Oh, I love a happy ending! :-)
> >
> > [Mike has a 94 Solectria with the older belt-type drive and the gearbox
> > is shot on it, so he has been looking for a soltuion...]
> >
> > Let us know how you make out.
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob Rice wrote:
> > > Hi Mike;
> > >
> > > Great! I'll call ya in the AM, ...
> > > Take EVERYTHING, carcus an' all. OK?We can
> > > push it up on a trailer.You KNOW a bit about forses? I guess. This is
> the
> > > kinda guy I wanna give it to.When ya come down, spend the nite, have
> plenty
> > > of room! After all we are family.The EV family that has been my
support
> of
> > > late. If ya can come down the early part of the weak, or the weakend
is
> > > good.Sat?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jim Coate
> > 1970's Elec-Trak's
> > 1997 Solectria Force
> > 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> > 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> > http://www.eeevee.com
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Freidberg wrote:
Has anyone done this before, position AGM batteries on their sides in an onroad EV?
Check the battery specs. You can put Hawkers sideways, upside down, even
under water up to 30 feet or so IIRC.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 18 Mar 2006 at 10:21, Roland Wiench wrote:
> To convert the reserve Capacity to ampere-hour:
>
> 192 min. / 60 = 3.2 hrs.
>
> Then....
>
> 3.2 hr. x 25 amps = 80 amp-hrs.
>
> The battery would deliver 5 amperes for 16 hours. ( 80/5=16)
>
This calculation will only be reliable at currents near 25 amps, which only
high voltages EVs will use when cruising.
For a more accurate calculation of amp hours at different (usually higher ;-
) currents, you need to take Peukert's exponent into account. Uve's battery
calculator makes this easy. You'll find it on this page :
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/8679/battery.html
Scroll down the page, past the tables of battery specifications, to the
Peukert calculator. Fill in the values for either the first four, or the
fifth and sixth fields, on the page. Click the appropriate "Calculate
Peukert" button. Then you can enter either time or amps in the next
section of the calculator, and click the appropriate button to calculate
available usable amp hours with reasonable accuracy.
Bookmark this page, you'll use it frequently.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok thanks, I already had. The largest Hawker Genesis I had seen was the XE70
and I was looking for a larger battery then this.
Also a general statement from the manufacturer about a sideways orientation,
isn't quite enough assurance. For instance, an onroad EV presents some
vibration and shock transmission that would not be present in other
applications and operating environments. Installed sideways in an EV, the
questions remain, is this really a suitable application, and have EVers
successfully run AGMs sideways long-term?
Mark
Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mark Freidberg wrote:
> Has anyone done this before, position AGM batteries on their sides in an
> onroad EV?
Check the battery specs. You can put Hawkers sideways, upside down, even
under water up to 30 feet or so IIRC.
Chris
---------------------------------
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Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Power contactors tend to develop oxide films on the contact surfaces
that are partially insulating. In normal use the voltage breaks down
the film and the contactor conducts normally. There isn't enough
voltage or current from a DVM to break down this film and so the
contactor frequently will read relatively high ohms.
The proper way to measure small resistances like this is to use a
milli-ohm bridge. I have a very expensive and fancy General Radio
version. This bridge passes up to 10 amps through the unknown and
measures the voltage drop to compute ohms. You can do the same thing
with a known current source and your meter.
Connect the known source of current across the contacts. WITH
SEPARATE CONNECTIONS directly to the contactor posts, connect the DVM.
This is known as a Kelvin 4 wire connection. This avoids any error
from voltage drop in the current carrying connecting leads. From the
known current and voltage drop, use Ohm's law to compute the actual
resistance.
John
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 08:38:26 -0800, "Don Cameron"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Thanks Evan. They are sealed contactors. I checked the resistance, and on
>both they are 0.16 ohms. The datasheet says they should have max resistance
>of 0.0003 ohms. Hmmm... Either they are bad units, or I am just measuring
>the resistance in the contacts, and connection hardware.
>
>BTW I am using a Fluke 189 to measure the resistance. Is there a better
>method?
>
>
>Thanks
>Don
>
>Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
>see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of Evan Tuer
>Sent: March 16, 2006 7:02 AM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Testing Contactors
>
>On 3/16/06, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I recently purchase brand new contactors from eBay. They are brand
>> new, but I got them for such a good price, I am a little concerned
>> that they are seconds or defective.
>>
>> 1) is this a valid concern?
>> 2) how do I test them?
>
>If they are "open" contactors like albright, a visual inspection and
>checking that it works when applying the correct voltage to the coil will
>do.
> If they are sealed, do the same but check for a (close to) zero-ohm reading
>across the contacts whilst power is applied.
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Hawker Odyssey is much more vibration resistant and durable than the
Genesis and if you go with the metal jacket, it has an 80 deg C rating.
Military spec. I am currenlty using them on their sides. They are fine in any
orientation except upside down.
Ray
Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ok thanks, I already had. The largest Hawker Genesis I had seen was the XE70
and I was looking for a larger battery then this.
Also a general statement from the manufacturer about a sideways orientation,
isn't quite enough assurance. For instance, an onroad EV presents some
vibration and shock transmission that would not be present in other
applications and operating environments. Installed sideways in an EV, the
questions remain, is this really a suitable application, and have EVers
successfully run AGMs sideways long-term?
Mark
Christopher Zach wrote:
Mark Freidberg wrote:
> Has anyone done this before, position AGM batteries on their sides in an
> onroad EV?
Check the battery specs. You can put Hawkers sideways, upside down, even
under water up to 30 feet or so IIRC.
Chris
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am currently mucking around with a smal portable slow charger using just a
toroid, dropping resistor and bridge rectifier. However, i keep asking this
question to myself. How much ripple can the batteries take. I know that the
hawkers don't like more than 2%. I am not sure about the trojan SCS225 that
i am using.
Cheers
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Cheap charger, I resemble that!
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 10:47:51 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: Cheap charger, I resemble that!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> > Bob Rice wrote:
> >> I charged for YEARS with a surplus Variac and 5 dollar bridge recton-
> >> Fire. Yes Classic Bad Boy...
> >
> >
> > PS, I don't know if you lay awake thinking of these, or they just fall
> > out of your fingers, but I love the double entendres in your posts!
> > --
> I meet Bob at the Battery beach brun out and spend some time with him
the
> next day , I'm happy to say he talkes the same as he writes , along with
a
> very very long EV histroy .
> Steve Clunn
> Hi EVerybody:
English is a fun language, you can twist it about, make up your own
words, like a fuffily cat, long hair, and the EV vocabulary, used here.
I didn't realize the Bad Boy definitions, glad to be streightened out,
like 3rd world chargers, a true Bab Boy is just a 'stench, from the smell,
chord, as a dropping resister. Now that ya mention it at work, the outlets
I
wired in were on the output to a big ass transformer to the trailers that
pass for "Perminent" buildings on their property. Maybe trailers have to
have that isolation circuit, by code?So I never got bitten there, just at
home with the non isolated setup. Seems the PFC is a bit more benign than a
Variac Bad Boy?Havent gotten zapped by it yet.But I KNOW it 'aint isolated
as I tried, by mistake, to run them both. Got a short circus! Tripped
breakers! Maybe if I had turned the BB plug around? Didn't care to try
after
that Zorch effect!Would that work, anyhow?
seeya
Bob
_________________________________________________________________
realestate.com.au: the biggest address in property
http://ninemsn.realestate.com.au
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
This is exactly what I did, to come close to the 7" and some height
of the Hawkers that were in the US Electricar truck battery box.
I have 26 UB121100 in one string (instead of 2 strings of Hawkers
which is a design-for-disaster in my opinion, as it has no
provision to load-share between the two strings, so the chemistry
of the batteries will actually enlarge the unbalance between the
strings: the healthier one will see more current, get hotter, get
lower resistance, so will carry even more current and you will
soon end up with two strings severely out of balance, one will
be under-utilised and over-charged and the other will see
regualar abuse of double the current that it was designed for
and deeper discharges than you expect, in all you will have a
shorter range and kill your batteries earlier than having a
single string which is twice the capacity.
Anyway - my vehicle is on the EValbum and one picture shows the
main battery box plus a small 4-battery box behind the rear axle
as the terminals of the UB121100 make this battery slightly larger
than 2 Hawkers side-by-side, so I could not fit 26 in the original
battery box (8 in the bottom and 5 in the top one each side of
the drive shaft) but only 22 (7 + 4)x2
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/694b.jpg
I have more pictures of where I just start sliding the first
batteries under the cabin in the low section of the box.
Let me know if you like to receive these pictures.
Note that I needed to notch the sides of the box to lower the
batteries in there, as I could not first drop in one Hawker,
slide it to the outer wall, then drop in the second Hawker
against the inner wall.
There were no structural changes needed to make this all work,
only a pipe from main to auxiliary battery box and some bolts
to fasten that box to the frame.
I did 1300 miles with this setup in the past 2 months and recently
I checked the resting voltage several hours after charging and
found all voltages on the batteries that I could reach within
0.03V of each other: between 13.25 and 13.28V.
That is better than when I first measured them in November, as
they came straight from the warehouse and had not been charged
since their production (datecode 16/05/05) and where between
12.57 and 12.72V
The specification of these batteries say that they can be
installed and used in any orientation except upside down.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mark Freidberg
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Large AH SLAs available with total height of 8" or less?
Has anyone done this before, position AGM batteries on their sides in an
onroad EV?
Mark
kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Univeral Batteries has 90 and 110 AH AGM batteries which are 7" wide. I
suppose you could lay them on their sides.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
--- End Message ---
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At 08:38 AM 18/03/06 -0800, Don wrote:
Thanks Evan. They are sealed contactors. I checked the resistance, and on
both they are 0.16 ohms. The datasheet says they should have max resistance
of 0.0003 ohms. Hmmm... Either they are bad units, or I am just measuring
the resistance in the contacts, and connection hardware.
BTW I am using a Fluke 189 to measure the resistance. Is there a better
method?
G'day Don, and all
Evan Tuer and Neon John have given you some pointers, so I won't re-hash
that, but here are some practicalities:
Get a battery (or a MIG welder), a wire coat hanger, a plastic bucket of
water and some leads. As well as the multimeter, you'll need a means to
measure the current.
Unravel the coat hanger and bend it so that it forms a loop in the bucket,
with most or all of the wire able to be immersed under water.
With the contactor in the loop, turn it on and measure the loop current and
the voltage terminal-to-terminal (the ends of the terminal posts) on the
contactor. Your battery voltage will be falling so the loop current will
also be falling but you should be able to end up with a current measurement
that is +/-5% or better (if you have a helper to read the current
simultaneously to your voltage reading this'll reduce your errors). If you
have a MIG welder as your power source (use on lowest setting) the current
should be more stable.
At 100 amps if your contactors are OK you will only be getting around 30mV
across the contactor, at this low voltage your measurments will be a bit
'fluffy' as you may get thermocouple-effect voltages also the Fluke meter
will be struggling a little to measure with good accuracy this low. So your
voltage readings could be in error up to +/-10% or more, but certainly your
overall results should be enough to show go/no-go for your contactors.
Hope this helps. Let us know how your test gets set up and the results.
Regards
James
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Jim Phillips wrote:
> How about if I take a whack at designing and building a controller?
> I have been building power converters for many years but not this
> high power or high voltage, and I know that causes many issues.
> It will give me a chance to expand my horizons :-) It would
> also give you an exact match to your needs not some kludge.
That's a great idea. Motor controllers are a bit different from power
converters. Building one for a lower current like this gives you an
opportunity to "learn the ropes" without hanging yourself :-) It's
easier to build (no massive buss bars), and the parts are considerably
cheaper (not murdering $100 worth of silicon for every mistake).
> It doesn't seem like a big problem (except for the voltage).
> For the big (expensive) parts there is only the IGBT > 30 A
> is around $5, high speed freewheel diode is about $5. I can
> get prototype double side plated through holes circuit
> boards for about $20. The parts list should be maybe
> $75-$100, that is pretty cheap.
Motors are pretty nasty loads. If you use a 30a IGBT for a 10a motor
load, you're likely to kill it. For example, a stalled motor looks a lot
like a dead short, so your controller needs to work into a shorted load.
Motor inductance is unpredictable; it could be high with a small series
motor, or almost nothing with a good PM motor. Motor inductance is also
lossy at high frequencies; this forces a relatively low PWM frequency.
The wiring between the motor and controller is also unpredictable; it
may be long, and have lots of capacitance. The capacitance causes
serious current spikes. Fast switching is good for efficiency, but
causes serious current spiking with capacitive loads. Fast edges with
poor wiring also causes noise problems, both in your controller, and to
other equipment in the vehicle.
You'll have to include a large, high quality input filter capacitor;
without it, voltage spikes on the IGBT will be severe. It will cost more
than the IGBT. Also, you should provide some way to charge that
capacitor without blowing the input fuse or welding whatever switch
turns it on.
> Vin 200-320 volts, and 12 V
> Iout 10 amps
> Startup issues? (remote enable)
> EMC issues? (inrush current limiting)
> Isolation?
> Motor inductance, need an external inductor?
> (what should happen when you are outside this)
It should have adjustable input undervoltage and overvoltage limits. If
the input voltage is too low, the battery is dead or there's something
wrong with the input circuit (such as you're running with the precharge
resistor in place). If the input voltage is too high, you want to
prevent operation that could result in a "stuck on" failure.
Likewise, there should be adjustable motor voltage limits. Too low a
voltage for more than a matter of seconds means the motor can't start
(too much mechanical load); it will burn up its commutator in a matter
of seconds. Even if the motor is turning slowly, too low a voltage at
full current can burn up its windings, because its internal fan doesn't
work at low speeds.
Too much motor voltage should also be limited. For instance, the
controller might be running a 120vdc motor from a 300vdc battery pack.
You don't want to apply more than (say) 150v to the motor, regardless of
how lightly loaded it is.
Fonally, you have the classic failure mode of a simple PWM controller --
motor fails FULLY ON! This can create a dangerous condition. So, you
want a design that either can't fail on, or that will detect such a
failure and shut itself down if/when it occurs. Assuming a brushed DC
motor, two promising strategies for dealing with this are a Cuk'
converter, or a half-bridge (if one transistor fails to turn off, when
the other one turns on, it crowbars the supply and blows the fuse, thus
shutting everything off).
Isolation: It should probably be built to meet the same isolation/hipot
requirements you see on most 240vac products; 1500v hipot between any HV
terminal and ground, and between any 12vdc sensing or control circuits.
Then there are the environmental issues. It has to work in the hideous
environment of an automobile; hot, cold, rain, snow, mud, mice,
vibration, hammer mechanics, etc.
Think you're up to the challenge? Still think you can do it for $20? :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Robert Chew wrote:
> I am currently mucking around with a smal portable slow charger
> using just a toroid, dropping resistor and bridge rectifier.
> However, I keep asking this question to myself. How much ripple
> can the batteries take. I know that the hawkers don't like more
> than 2%. I am not sure about the trojan SCS225 that i am using.
The 2% ripple spec only applies during the final stages of charging,
when the battery is almost full. The classic transformer-rectifier
charger produces pulses of current at each peak of the AC line, and 0
current between peaks. A "1 amp" average charging current is really 10
amp pulses for 10% of the time; 120 pulses per second.
These 10 amp pulses into a fully charged battery cause large voltage
peaks. The voltage might average 15v, but it's really a sawtooth, rising
rapidly from 14.5v to 15.5v during those 10a peaks, and then slowly
falling from 15.5v to 14.5v during the rest of the cycle when the
charging current is 0 amps. This high peak voltage is what the Hawkers
don't like.
None of this matters during bulk charging. First, the battery's internal
resistance is so low that it already acts like a many-farad filter
capacitor. Second, because the average voltage is so far below the
gassing point that what little peaks there are don't rise high enough to
matter.
Your charge rate at 14.5v should be quite low (only 1-2 amps), because
the battery is already nearly full and you are just doing the finishing
and final equalization. At this current, a pretty modest electrolytic
filter capacitor is all it takes to filter those 10 amp spiked into a
low-ripple current charging source.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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(This message was sent to me by an old EV Friend... He thought I should
forward it to the List...) ( and I agreed )
"Hi All, The news media is finally going to tell the truth about what is
happening with oil reserves. Please check out some of the video clips on
the right hand side of this page.
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/presents/ Some very interesting
interviews with the likes of Mathew Simmons, the founder of the largest
energy investment bank in the world. His multi billion dollar company
has clients like Haliburton and British Petroleum, (BP). Also interviews
with James Woolsey the former Director of the CIA. These aren't not tree
huggers mind you. I highly recommend anyone who has considered spending
the next decade or so on this planet watch this extremely important
program. That is all I will say on the subject." Good Night and Good
Luck...
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
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After several months of carefree driving we have now been down for
several weeks.
I have bee reluctant to post my story and a bit depressed and needed to
do some checking.
In my several calls to various people feel ready to run this by those on
the list.
What happened is the car starting bucking on de-acceleration and got
progressively worse till finally it stopped moving in downtown rush hour.
I examined the speed sensor disk and could see the lines scratched off
where the detector pair on the speed sensor is placed.
I re-inked the disk lines with a sharpie and tried to makes several
adjustments but could not get it going at all and had the car towed home.
Jacked up the front end so the wheels could turn freely.
Completely backed off the sensor and the motor would turn smoothly and
slowly.
In testing I adjusted the sensor closer in small increments to the disk
and then the motor started to respond in a very erratic and rough
stepping motions. The axial motion of the motor armature starting
jumping about at what appears to be .125 inch so the disk is moving to
and fro in this sputtering effect to the sensor and is very choppy
The motor bearings seem noise free but the armatures axial movement
maybe to great and the trouble possibly.
When the motor is at rest the disk is about flush to the motor face.
I can see the motor mounts with 3 bolts, so does one remove these and
simply slide the motor out.
Also how does the motor shaft engage to the transmission?
Hopefully I am on the right track to fixing this.
Danny
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Hi Danny,
Thanks for sharing. No need to be embarrassed or depressed,
like all other cars our EVs will break down from time to time
and that is one of the reasons we have this list, as the
regular streetcorner garage mechanics only have a limited
understanding of EVs (they know all the parts that were in
a car before it was converted to electric or the parts that
are in an ICE car if your EV never had an engine.) Still
they are very valuable, but the "electric" part is the
terrain of the EV specialists.
>From a distance my guess is that your optical sensor
is damaged from the disk grinding into it, so that is
why you are not getting a reliable pulse, even after
re-striping the disk. It probably needs to be replaced,
but you best inspect the sender and receiver elements
to see if they are still completely clear.
I cannot do more than this general advice from a distance
(though I am in SouthBay, so still pretty nearby!)
In this case you are very lucky in SF, because you can
contact Lawrence, who is very active and also in SF.
I quote his signature for your reference:
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Success getting this baby on the road again!
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Danny Ames
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 1:25 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; EV SEND MSG
Subject: A Force broken in San Francisco
After several months of carefree driving we have now been down for
several weeks.
I have bee reluctant to post my story and a bit depressed and needed to
do some checking.
In my several calls to various people feel ready to run this by those on
the list.
What happened is the car starting bucking on de-acceleration and got
progressively worse till finally it stopped moving in downtown rush hour.
I examined the speed sensor disk and could see the lines scratched off
where the detector pair on the speed sensor is placed.
I re-inked the disk lines with a sharpie and tried to makes several
adjustments but could not get it going at all and had the car towed home.
Jacked up the front end so the wheels could turn freely.
Completely backed off the sensor and the motor would turn smoothly and
slowly.
In testing I adjusted the sensor closer in small increments to the disk
and then the motor started to respond in a very erratic and rough
stepping motions. The axial motion of the motor armature starting
jumping about at what appears to be .125 inch so the disk is moving to
and fro in this sputtering effect to the sensor and is very choppy
The motor bearings seem noise free but the armatures axial movement
maybe to great and the trouble possibly.
When the motor is at rest the disk is about flush to the motor face.
I can see the motor mounts with 3 bolts, so does one remove these and
simply slide the motor out.
Also how does the motor shaft engage to the transmission?
Hopefully I am on the right track to fixing this.
Danny
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Danny wrote:
After several months of carefree driving we have now been down for
several weeks.
I have been reluctant to post my story and a bit depressed and
needed to do some checking.
<SNIP>
The motor bearings seem noise free but the armatures axial movement
maybe to great and the trouble possibly.
When the motor is at rest the disk is about flush to the motor face.
I can see the motor mounts with 3 bolts, so does one remove these
and simply slide the motor out.
Also how does the motor shaft engage to the transmission?
One of my Forces had a damaged gearbox when I purchased
it. Solectria built a new box and shipped it to me. When I went to
transfer the motor to the new box, I discovered the gear on the motor
shaft was damaged. Solectria advised me to ship both parts back to
them. They decided the motor was damaged and located a good used
one, mated up the two, and shipped it back to me. It worked okay for
a few weeks, but didn't feel right. I shipped it all back to them
again, and they found the bearings in the motor were bad. They took
full responsibility for it, repaired the motor tweaked it all on the
test stand and shipped it back to me, no charge. That had finally
resolved the issue.
My suspicion is the bearings on these motors are not designed for an
axial load. The helical gear is loading them first one way, then the
other depending on whether the car is under power or under regen. As
I recall, the motor simply bolts up to the gearbox and the gear on
the motor shaft engages the gears inside the transmission. If your
luck, all you need to do, is pull the motor and have a motor shop
replace the bearings. I don't know if the motor can be pulled with
the gearbox still in the car or not, but it is fairly easy to pull
them as an assembly. Have you contacted Solectria/Azure about
this? I have a used sensor disk if that might help you any.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
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