EV Digest 5278
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: The batts went flat...
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Good Boy charger (Re: Looking to build a badder-boy charger)
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Good Boy charger (Re: Looking to build a badder-boy charger)
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Good Boy charger (Re: Looking to build a badder-boy charger)
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Motor woes - centrifugal switches? (link to pics)
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Values for transformer and other bad boy parts
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: LED Headlights and the DOT
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) CurrentEliminator Racing?
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Multi charger.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brad Baylor)
10) Re: Powerizer NiMH 10 AH D cells for mower power
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brad Baylor)
11) Re: Any daily drivers using an advanced battery chemistry?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brad Baylor)
12) Re: VW Jetta - parts needed
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brad Baylor)
13) Re: Good Boy charger (Re: Looking to build a badder-boy charger)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Hawker and AeroBatteries Team up with Plasma Boy Racing Again
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Multi charger.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brad Baylor)
16) Re: Values for transformer and other bad boy parts
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: My Battery Monitor
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Good Boy charger (Re: Looking to build a badder-boy charger)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Good Boy charger (Re: Looking to build a badder-boy charger)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Values for transformer and other bad boy parts
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Thanks for the info on -- Values for transformer and other bad boy parts
by "Tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: High Voltage Nationals Plea
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: CurrentEliminator Racing?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24) Something for Jerry and the 3-wheeler Crowd
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Solectria Force peak power (was Re: Early Hawker deaths)
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Fort Pierces 8th EV rally
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Putting NiCDs in an aluminum box
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: Putting NiCDs in an aluminum box
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Testing Contactors - Results
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I guess I will just chalk it up to my emeter's personality. Now that
I know that it is happening it probably won't effect me much anymore anyway.
I tried all the different remediation steps suggested. I even went so far
as to replace the shunt with a nice shiny new one to make sure that the
connections weren't oxidized, but all to no avail. Even when I shorted pins
2 and 3 together right at the back of the meter it bounced between .2 and .3
amps. I just won't leave the motorcycle sitting around half charged
anymore, and if I am someplace where I have to, I will note my ahr count and
work from there.
Thanks for all the helpfull sugestions.
BTW - I removed the connection Lee pointed out that I did not need.
damon
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: The batts went flat...
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 13:30:35 -0800
damon henry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I have a separate 12V battery who's sole purpose is to power
> the emeter.
> I was told that in order to use a separate
> 12V battery to power the Emeter it's negative post needed to
> be tied to the negative side of the traction pack.
> So is there anyone that disagrees with Lee that I do not
> need any connection between my emeter supply battery and
> my traction battery?
I agree with Lee. You do not need to make this connection as it is made
internally by the E-Meter. If you provide an external connection
between the supply battery negative and the traction pack negative, then
you provide a possible path for a ground loop current. Without the
external connection, you have a star ground type of scheme with the
supply and pack grounds tied together at a single point (internal to the
E-Meter).
> Also remember, my problem is that my emeter is reporting that
> my battery is getting a very small charge when in fact there
> is no charging happening.
This simply means that the current sense connections are seeing a small
positive voltage error. If the voltage were negative, then it would
report a slow discharge instead.
The same sort of problems (loose/poor/oxidised contacts, or current
being drawn through a current sense connection) can cause either
symptom.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
I don't know if the charger is isolated or not. I think Chris or Andy
know the answer. Mine is because the truck was done so late in the
design cycle that it got a 240 to 208 step down transformer to
supposedly save the fets from smoking. Consequently my charger may
never blow up. The charge rate is lower however. But my truck is rare
having this transformer. No other truck I've seen has it, and I know
the cars don't have it either.
The default Prizm is not really isolated. This is part of the problem
with the FET blowing up; gate voltage rips down to frame ground. Yes it
has a GFCI on-board, but that's not going to trip quickly enough.
If you have a 240-208 transformer though then you're set; AC voltage at
208 can't get high enough to cream the FETs. This explains why your
truck is running so well on a 240 charge. Good.
My goal is to give my truck a better charger. I'd love to have a
Magnecharger, but it's alot of added hardware and money, that my truck
didn't come with. So making an onboard charger that can use the liquid
cooling system and sit inside the nice aluminum case is a major plus to
me. I think there is enough volume to install a new design. It would be
even nicer if the pwm from the control hardware could be used to drive
the new design. Basically a drop in replacement charger.
I've thought about getting a PFC-30 for the Prizm, and will probably buy
one for the NiCD truck. The ability to charge at 6kw turns the Prizm
into a very useful car; you can drive it down 20ah, then get back on the
road in about an hour with the paddle charger. On 110 that would be a 10
hour charge. It would fit wherever the transformer is...
Chris
Mike
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mike Phillips wrote:
The [Dolphin charger] schematic that one member generated of the
charger shows it to be a boost only with filtering on the input.
Interesting; they sold a NON-isolated charger to the general public?
I think that a pfc supply is a good foundation for the power side
of a
charger. I'm starting there for my own education.
There are some problem, as these failures indicate. One is that the
pack
DC voltage has to be more than 1.4 times the AC input voltage, or the
charging current is uncontrolled. Another is that the output current
is
inherently pulsating, so you need large expensive filter capacitors
to
manage ripple and noise. And, due to the large capacitors, the inrush
current when you first connect it to the AC supply can be very large.
I designed a 12kw PFC charger. It dealt with the inrush problem by
placing MOSFETs in series with the large filter capacitors. These
MOSFETs were used as current-limiting resistors during startup to
manage
inrush, then turned fully-on for normal operation. This was
straightforward and required no high-side driver. But this charger
had
an output transformer (a full bridge 50 KHz switcher), so I didn't
have
to manage the inrush caused by connecting batteries directly to the
PFC
output.
I designed another 10kw charger that was a pure boost converter, with
the batteries directly connected to the PFC output. In this case, the
input bridge rectifier was actually made up with two diodes and two
SCRs. The SCRs were phase controlled to limit the inrush and charging
current when the battery pack was too low. It could charge even a
totally dead (0v) pack at low current. The power factor during
precharge
and this low-current "recovery" mode was not as high, but it doesn't
matter because it only lasts a short time and is at low current.
I complain to OEM's all the time about their cheezy driver
circuitry,
because I repair their hardware.
Good! One only hopes that the comments actually reach the ears of the
engineers that designed the things. Sadly, my experience is that most
companies isolate the engineers as thoroughly as possible from any
real
customers.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Mike Phillips wrote:
The [Dolphin charger] schematic that one member generated of the
charger shows it to be a boost only with filtering on the input.
Interesting; they sold a NON-isolated charger to the general public?
Yeah but it has a GFCI and such. :-)
There are some problem, as these failures indicate. One is that the pack
DC voltage has to be more than 1.4 times the AC input voltage, or the
charging current is uncontrolled. Another is that the output current is
inherently pulsating, so you need large expensive filter capacitors to
manage ripple and noise. And, due to the large capacitors, the inrush
current when you first connect it to the AC supply can be very large.
I think the filters are the drive motor IGBT caps. They're big, high
voltage, already there, and they are pre-charged with the PC relay.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Later, we found that we could put resistors in both legs of the opto, so
if/when it did short, the resistors would act as fuses. This was the
cheapest solution.
I think they Dolphin people thought this too; they have 4.7 ohm 1/4 watt
resistors on the gate lines. One of mine was carbon, with a resistance
of 47k ohm. Didn't work.
I think a pair of fast-blow 300 volt rated fuses would be better. They
don't have to be high AIR rating, as this is just the DC coming from the
bridge rectifier.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
http://www.coate.org/jim/lists/drive_motors.html
Those are bog-standard centrifugal start switches that most fractional
HP AC motors are equipped with. Any motor or appliance repair shop
can replace them.
Nice - that is very encouraging to hear. I will investigate.
Are you running the motors faster than normal? The fastest
motor that that type of switch would be used on is 3600 RPM. That
looks like the motor may be turning too fast and slinging off the
weights.
These are drive motors in Wheelhorse (Elec-Trak) garden tractors, being
used with stock set-up so shouldn't be going too fast. Unless a bum
design to start with.
First give it a really good physical inspection. ...
Good stuff. Fortunately it appears the brush and comm bar area was
protected from flying debris. It is the laminations that are bruised a
bit that I will have to look at more.
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 3/24/2006 10:22:02 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 07:24:56 -0800, "Tom Shjarback"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Lee, forgive me. Your comment reminds me of elementary
>school. I am seeking information, not what you sent.
>Please refrain from reading and replying to any of my post
>in the future.
>>
Wow... that was rude...
I have been on this list for 11 years, and I'll bet Lee has spent over a
thousand hours of his time patiently and sagely answering questions from any
and
all comers, including irritating pepetual newbies like me.
Talk about steppin on your johnson...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah anything new and improved costs more money...
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Yeah, I think DOT only applies to headlights in
> most places. I remember
> > checking through the AZ rules and for tail lights,
> etc it only listed
> > performance requirements. I.e. should be red in
> color and visible from
> > xyz distance, etc.
>
> I'd guess that the rules vary from state to state.
>
> > Then again, aside from the "cool" factor, I don't
> think LED is really
> > worth the money. After all it will have no real
> effect on range or
> > anything so why spend the extra bucks?
>
> If cars used standard bulbs, reflectors, and lenses,
> they would be the
> cheapest and probably "best" choice overall. But
> cars have gone for
> "form" over "function". It's easy to have to pay
> over $100 for a broken
> taillight, and many cars have a dozen or more bulbs
> in the back.
>
> LEDs do have some advantages. They don't burn out,
> and they take less
> current. This simplifies wiring and lowers repair
> costs, which is why
> trucks and buses have switched over to them
> enthusiastically.
>
> LEDs are also a paradigm shift. They may not be
> "better", but they are
> different. They give designers an opportunity to
> rethink the rules. LEDs
> will fit in places that bulbs won't. Instead of the
> huge housings
> characteristic of today's taillights, LEDs could be
> a wafer-thin
> flexible board that just stick onto the body. Wiring
> can be 1/10th the
> size. New ways to do things could be cheaper and
> better at the same
> time.
>
> Though the pessimist in me says the auto companies
> will replace $100
> tungsten bulb taillights with $200 LED taillights.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dennis,
Are you coming down this weekend to race?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>It seems to me that regulation and charging are both important factors
>in keeping a pack alive. I think making a 60 watt switcher/regulator
>for each battery is not a big deal in terms of logistics. That assumes
>I don't have 104 batterys ;) Something more like 26, maybe 52.
I was thinking the same thing. The AGM lead-acids are not tolerant of
overcharging or reverse charging (during deep discharge). I see
Manzanita Micro has Rudman Regulators to dump the excess during
charge, but I'd think they would be prone to overheat without fans,
and it seems like a bandage.
What I envision:
An isolated output charger for a single 12 V battery that does the IUU
profile described on page 25 in this PDF:
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/files/techbook.pdf
Use power factor corrected switching power supply technology.
One charger per battery with an isolated floating output so you could
hook them all up at the same time and not have anything blow up.
Automatic 120 or 220 volt operation and automatic current select.
Use a data bus and have each charger talk to a central controller.
Have an LCD display to output the voltages/currents/state of charge,
current mode of operation (CC or CV), etc. Buttons to change the view
to different batteries, stop/start charge, etc.
Have the constant current mode be adjustable by the user to keep the
total of all the chargers within the max power output of the wall
socket. And it would be really nifty if you'd just enter the amp
capacity of your wall socket, AH of the battery, desired C rate (which
it would auto-derate if not possible), and it would figure out the
rest based on the input voltage and number of chargers in use.
Up to 400 watts output per (for charging 12 Odyssey PC1700 or PC2150
off a 30 AMP 220V circuit).
Modularize it all and make them stackable.
The controller should also monitor the discharge and tell the state of
charge and warn (loudly) if any are nearing reversal.
Make 'em inexpensive. :)
Anyone selling this yet? It's a bit beyond my design expertise, but I
could probably roll my own if I had a bunch of off-the-shelf isolated
16 volt or so switchers followed by some linear regulators and PIC or
other microcontrollers.
Brad in Tampa
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've decided against the Powerizer's after reading their message forum
and getting some email feedback from others here. The cells apparently
have high internal resistance and sometimes widely varying
characteristics (poor quality control I guess). 10 amps per seems to
be the safe real world max, and only if you get good ones.
I haven't heard back from SG Photo so I guess the BB600 cells aren't
available.
So now I'm considering the Odyssey PC1700 batteries.
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/files/techbook.pdf
They'll just barely fit up front, but I'm mainly worried about weight
distribution- about 265 lbs including the Etek, and the engine and
battery I'll be removing are an estimated 120 lbs, so a net gain of
145 lbs up front.
Brad in Tampa
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>They are (to make). Market cost as you know based on
>how much you're willing to pay for its benefits for you,
>not necessarily how much it cost them to fabricate it.
These cells are just incredible. The RC airplane guys are just lovin'
them. Ordinary electric models that effortlessly hover on their
propellors. :)
It'll be awesome when they drop the price and the common EV folk like
me can experience them too. Kokam's gotta know the market will just
explode with EVs if the price comes down. The question is when.
Perhaps when the Firefly lead-acid cells come out (assuming they
perform well and are as inexpensive as they claim they'll be)?
I remember the early articles on lithium polymer in the 90s. They all
claimed they'd be awesome and cheap. Hrmmm...
Brad in Tampa
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Of course I smiled and said "no problem, we will be
ripping those parts right out - won't need them at all!"."
LOL!
I just bought an engine crane and a floor jack today and will soon
start on the conversion of my 87 Jetta glider. I expect ripping out
the gas junk will be the fun part. >:-)
For power I'm considering an Advanced DC #FB1-4001, a Zilla #Z1K-HV,
and 12 Odyssey PC2150 batteries. I've blown up way too many
electronics in my other endeavors to consider the 156 V Zilla... No
money for the parts yet, and I still need to do a ton of research, so
it may be another 6 to 12 months before I really get started.
See the thread just above titled "Parts for VW Rabbits". Lots of good
sources for VW stuff.
Brad in Tampa
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> A transformer, even an autotransformer is a pretty big and
>> heavy "solution".
Roger Stockton wrote:
> While this is true in principle, the 240<->208 autotransformer is
> *much* smaller and lighter... That said, it appears that the Dolphin
> is a relatively wimpy 2.2kW, and a 2kVA isolation transformer is
> much smaller, lighter, and cheaper than a 7.5kVA model so it could
> be a reasonable alternative.
I'd guess around 30 lbs for a transformer. Heavy, but not terribly so.
> I'm assuming that the Dolphin is at least and isolated boost topology
> and so doesn't require an isolation transformer for isolation...
I had always assumed it was isolated, but the comments in this thread
made me wonder.
>> Use the contactor Roger suggested to sense pack voltage; if
>> too low, its contacts switch in the resistor.
> I like it! Personally, I'd reverse the function of the relay; that is,
> the resistor would be in series with the output at all times and the
> relay contacts would short it out if/when the pack voltage is high
> enough. (Perhaps this is what you had in mind also, but stated
> differently.)
Yes, that's the way to do it. The relay will naturally be dropped out
when the pack is dead, so it defaults to have the resistor in series.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
While my friends across the USA in Florida are all ready tearing up the
track, we're still ramping up for the 2006 racing season.
I'm happy to report that today, a pallet of 30 brand new Hawker
AeroBatteries arrived at the dock of Northwest Handling Systems. I want
to publicly thank Hawker, and especially Dick Brown of AeroBatteries for
their unwavering support! Dick's enthusiasm over our racing efforts has
been awesome, and Hawker has been very generous in their sponsorship.
After a pretty heavy day of wrenching on forklifts with service calls
all over the city, the stormy Spring day ended on a fun note as I and my
ride-along younger tech arrived late returning to Northwest Handling
System's back equipment yard. There's something very exciting about
getting back as day's light was fading away, opening the slider gate,
and positioning my service truck to receive a load of feisty Hawkers.
Unlocking the service shop's doors (everyone had already gone home for
the weekend) we went in to fetch the pallet of batteries. The fun
started with me choosing one of countless powerful Crown electric reach
trucks to do the deed. I chose an AC drive RR5225 stand-up rider-reach
machine as the tool for the job at hand. Able to hoist 5000 lbs.
straight up 25 feet with effortless ease, the 700 lbs. of AeroBatteries
wasn't much of a challenge for the powerful Crown :-) Still, loading 700
lbs. of batteries by hand would have been a lot of work. I drove the
load outside down a ramped grade, and then positioned the forklift at
the rear of my service truck. Using the Crown's multifunction handle I
raised the load, side-shifted the carriage to perfectly center the
pallet, then used the reach function to extend the batteries into the
back of my service truck...the hefty Isuzu truck barely noticed the
extra 700 lbs. in back. There's something very cool about using an
electric vehicle to load batteries for my electric vehicle!
The batteries are now at my home, still in the back of the service truck
parked in the shop driveway. Tomorrow, I'll fire up my own electric
forklift and use it to retrieve the pallet of batteries...more EV fun!
With a brand new pack and the other mods we've got planned, 2006 should
be a fast year for Plasma Boy Racing!
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Heh! Already been done! :)
See this page:
http://www.knology.net/~gdion/EVPorsche/chargers.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:24 AM 24/03/06 -0800, Tom wrote:
Lee, forgive me. Your comment reminds me of elementary
school. <snip>
> me what transformer and rectifiers and assorted parts to use to
> build a "bad boy" charger? <snip>
Hi Tom, and all
Sorry Tom, your *question* is an elementary school one. A bad-boy charger
consists of a suitable rectifier, on a suitable heatsink, with a suitable
collection of extension leads that you plug in or remove to vary the
resistance of the inbound lead. This reduces or increases the resulting
voltage at the rectifier, varying the charge rate. You also need to be able
to add meters in order to know what the charge rate is (so you don't
overload the supply, or not get enough charge into your battery) and
measure the battery voltage (so you know when to turn it off). So Tom, if
you have enough knowlege to determine what makes the parts suitable, then
you'll be fine, have fun, but don't forget the essential suitable safety parts.
If you don't have enough knowlege yet, then it'd be advisable to increase
your electrical/electronic knowlege to the point where you can make those
decisions, and spend the intervening time looking for the parts on the
cheap that'd allow you to make a "bad-boy with manners", a variac charger,
or a "TWC" (thid-world-charger) or other simple charging system. If you
really don't want to know enough to make those decisions, then you are
better off (and far less likely to end up electrocuted) to buy an
off-the-shelf charger.
My $0.02 is that everyone who wants to build things like this should do an
electronics course of some description, if they haven't already been an
electronics hobbyist of some kind. The chances then of someone getting
electrocuted or setting something on fire should be greatly reduced. You
MUST respect electricity, and if you don't (most people don't respect it
enough) bad things happen, sometimes very bad things.
Hope this helps you avoid the bad things.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 24, 2006, at 1:40 PM, Mike Phillips wrote:
Your memory is as bad as mine John ;)
[John G. Lussmyer]
I have 4 sets of your monitoring
hardware that I just finished building. I have just the dash stuff to
build anyway.
[http://www.casadelgato.com/CasaDelGatoSystems/index_files/Page451.htm]
Wow, I may be just ahead of you Mike :-) I've built the board to
install the monitor (DC to DC, 12v system connections, a relay and some
diodes, and the remote board installed on it.) I've run the wires from
each of the batteries. I'm hoping this weekend I will get the bonnet
pulled and lash the thing into the bugE.
For the DC to DC I chose a C&D HPR107. Less than $9 each from Mouser.
The specs say it can take up to 15 volts input provided it has 1ma of
load (so there is also a 10k ohm resistor across the output.) I
considered a 3 watt Astrodyne 9-18 volt input regulated DC to DC
converter for $18 (ASD03-12S12H, from Astrodyne.) It seemed like
overkill.
I've only got 10 batteries (one monitor.) My excuse was waiting for my
employer to turn off the overtime again. Money or getting something
done... My bugE will need new batteries and a better charger pretty
soon so the choice was clear. The current 7 year old Optimas should
keep the monitor busy :-) (I have abused them so bad its a wonder they
still work)
Hey Mike, would you share how you rigged up the connections to each of
the batteries? I found it difficult to get 5/16th inch ring terminals
for 24 gauge wire, and such small wire is not very strong anyway. I
ended up using ring terminals for 18 gauge wire. I used a piece of 18
gauge wire and twisted it together with 24 gauge stranded wire. I then
crimped this into a non-insulated 18 gauge ring terminal. The 18 gauge
wire was cut off 1/4 inch behind the terminal (with its insulation on
behind the crimp.) Then I used a piece of 1/8th inch heat shrink tubing
cut 3/4 inch long to go over the connection (1/4 inch over the terminal
crimp, 1/4 inch over the 18 gauge and 24 gauge wire, and the last 1/4
inch over just the 24 gauge wire.) I tested this type of connection and
it seems quite strong for anything involving 24 gauge wire.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
Yup this is the concept for our Iso chargers.. the good old 400 volt Boost
PFC front end that we use now but a HF transformer based Buck output stage.
We tried to control the back end... but it would unload the front so fast we
broke the inverter.... a few times....
Actually, this is almost how BRUSA chargers are made. They do it this
way since I believe 1985, must be worthwhile concept then :-)
Victor
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--- Begin Message ---
Note that for a 240 <-> 208V autotransformer you only need a
transformer at 14% of the power you are actually transferring
as only 32V need to be supplied by the transformer, the rest
is coming from the wall outlet.
The 2.2 kW Dolphin only needs a 300VA transformer.
However, the wiring on such an autotransformer will likely not
stand up to the 2.2 kW current.
There are two solutions - either rewind the auto-transformer
with a heavier 32V winding, or use a regular transformer with
a wimpy 240V primary and a heavy gauge secondary and wire the
secondary in series with the wall outlet (which is feeding the
primary) to reduce the voltage from 240 to 208.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
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Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 3:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Good Boy charger (Re: Looking to build a badder-boy
charger)
Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> A transformer, even an autotransformer is a pretty big and
> heavy "solution". If I was going to add one, I'd make it a
> true isolation transformer. It is common for them to have
> lower-voltage taps.
While this is true in principle, the 240<->208 autotransformer is *much*
smaller and lighter (and perhaps most importantly, cheaper ;^) than any
isolation transformer of similar power I've seen. The 7.5kVA model I
referred to is, relatively speaking, tiny and light (probably about
10lbs).
That said, it appears that the Dolphin is a relatively wimpy 2.2kW
(@240VAC), and a 2kVA isolation transformer is much smaller, lighter,
and cheaper than a 7.5kVA model so it could be a reasonable alternative.
I'm assuming that the Dolphin is at least and isolated boost topology
and so doesn't require an isolation transformer for isolation...
> Use the contactor Roger suggested to sense pack voltage; if
> too low, its contacts switch in the resistor.
> This is a whole-pack version of the
> high-voltage-and-light-bulb-in-series method of recovering a
> dead AGM or gel cell.
I like it! Personally, I'd reverse the function of the relay; that is,
the resistor would be in series with the output at all times and the
relay contacts would short it out if/when the pack voltage is high
enough. (Perhaps this is what you had in mind also, but stated
differently.)
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
At 07:24 AM 24/03/06 -0800, Tom wrote:
Lee, forgive me. Your comment reminds me of elementary
school. <snip>
Hi Tom , well you did say " Lee , forgive me , and he might , as he has
more hart that any on the list ( and probable helped more to ) . I started
EVing about 5 years before getting on the list . I made my share of bad boys
, tried to teach them a thing or two . I even come up with a idea ( not new
, but new to me at the time) of a charger that worked on 1/2 the parts of a
bad boy . Victor named it the " bad girl charger " as it ran on two hot legs
. This charger is so dangerous that there is a good chance she will burn
your house down ( say 99% if used wrong , and many would say there is no
right way to dance with her ) . She has a way of not popping your braker
but will cause a burning sensation on your middle leg (ground) . Would I
tell you or anyone how to make one , no way. If you came on the list , and
spelled her name , we'd all tell you to stay away , I liked her big amps
but saw her in action once and dropped her after that . Back to the boys ,
. . I had a lot of fun making chargers , I read a lot and experimented
with many different Ideas , Then I got on this list , and after reading some
of Lee's post , I started to see some of the problems these boys can cause
along with some fixes. Then the day came that I got my first PFC charger .
As happy as I was with this charger , I was also a little sad , there was no
way anything I could make would come close to what Rich's charger could do ,
I use my Ev a lot , I remember thinking how nice it was not to have to check
it before going to bed , for 5 years I'd pull the pug on those bad boys
before going to bed , never got one trained the way I wanted to . After my
first PFC I never went back . Got plenty of things to do , like a old man ,
the idea of having kids again , what are you nuts , I loved them when I had
them , but the green box rules now . , On the full wave bridge rectifiers ,
I used a 50 amp 1000 v bridge for every 10 amp of out put ,
Steve Clunn
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--- Begin Message ---
John De Armond, Mike Chancey, Roland Wiench
Thanks for your informative replies and safety concerns concerning the
bad boy charger concept. I appreciate the feedback.
Tom Shjarback
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--- Begin Message ---
John,
I can't pass up a chance to race at this firts "east meets west" event.
I'll let you all know what ev (s) we are able to bring to the event but
hopefully I will be there driving a big red street car that is this
close to 100mph and is famous for blowing breakers and catching fire!
(Rudman loves that part) I'm lobbying hard. Are the Netgain and CE4
dragsters coming to play?
Shawn Lawless
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 15:41:04 -0600
Subject: High Voltage Nationals Plea
As most of you know,
Route 66 Raceway in Joliet, Illinois will be holding the HIGH VOLTAGE
NATIONALS May 13, 2006.
However, this might NOT happen if we don't have at least 20
participants
racing in the EVent. The "powers to be" at the track will chop the
EVent due to a low turnout. So, this plea goes out to any and all who
are thinking about showing up to please register at our web sight
www.fveaa.org or contact me John Emde at [EMAIL PROTECTED] by
Monday 3/27/06 at the latest. Also, if you know any NEDRA "record"
holder, have them contact me directly as we have a sweet deal for them.
Record holders that have committed so far are John Wayland, Bill Dube',
Jack Knofp, Darin Gilbert, and Brigham Young Univ. This is your chance
to rub elbows and fenders with the best in their class. HVR's
"Aggravated
Battery" dragster will also be there.
There is NO entry fee for any EV. Prizes include trophies and cash
awards.
The event is being organized by High Voltage Racing, the Fox Valley
Electric Auto Association (FVEAA) and is sanctioned by the National
Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA).
All pure electric vehicles (2, 3, and 4 or more wheels) are invited to
participate, either as a static display or drag race in the NEDRA
event.
All alternative fuel vehicles (cng, hydrogen, propane, bio diesel,
veggie
oil, steam, etc.) and hybrids of all makes and fuels are also
welcome to participate as part of the Alternative Fuel Vehicle (AVF)
Expo
which is also being held at the Route 66 Raceway.
This is in conjunction with the Joliet Township High School's (JTHS)
Alternative Fuel Vehicle (AVF) Expo.
The event will also be held in conjunction with the 5th EVer EAA
All-Chapters Conference that same weekend from May 12 to 14th which
will
also be hosted by the FVEAA. The 5th EVer is a gathering of EAA
Chapters
to conference about opportunities to promote and develop EVs.
Check the web sight for more details as they become available.
FVEAA www.fveaa.org
Thanks again
John Emde
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
NO its a division race Class cars only. Dennis
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--- Begin Message ---
Alas, VW is not completely electric...yet.
http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/volkswagen_news/article_1647.shtml
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
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--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote:
> Can Forces really pull 250 amps?
My 1995 Force routinely pulls 220 Amps in Power mode, where it is clamped.
I strongly suspect there is a twiddle adjustment inside the controller that can
adjust that. Many years ago I recall James Worden and Olaf Bleck at the Tour
de Sol (May is coming!) with a Solectria controller opened up between them
looking for an adjustment. They could have very easily been looking for the
current clamp.
Azure Dynamics may be willing help find it if you contact them.
http://www.azuredynamics.com
--
Mike Bianchi
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm getting ready for my yearly Ev rally , and this year we are going to
have a long distance contest with 3 classes , D1 D2 and a D3 . Drivers will
pick the class they want to be in and try to drive as many miles as they can
in the allotted time , D1 one hour , D2 two and D3 three hours . Everybody
is welcome , and there's no charge to enter :-) . So far in the D3 class
we have 2 entries , Charles Whalen's Rave EV and my 40 golf cart battery
Mazda pick up . I'm going to have some T shirts made and am looking for
Ideas / art for them . The theme is Long distance , . Right now the D3 class
looks like it will start a 4 am so we have time to re charge before the show
, other classes starting times will be up to the people entering them , ( so
D1 and D2 drivers let me know when you want to start) . If it rains we'll
have it the next weekend .
ELECTRIC VEHICLES RALLY
will be the 8th Annual
on April 29, 2006
Saturday, 11am to 4 pm
at: DISCOUNT AUTO
4158 Okeechobee Road
Ft Pierce Florida
Steve Clunn www.grassrootsev.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Ok, I've been measuring the batteries and it looks like I can fit 126
BB600 cells per side in my 94 S10 truck. Total of 252 batteries, or a
304 base voltage. It will be a snug fit, and I will be putting in temp
sensors for telemetry, but they will fit, and I can wire the disconnect
to split the pack into 4 75 volt segments for safety
My question: How dangerous is it to put flooded NiCDs in an Aluminum
box? This is thick stuff, and I am painting the bare metal with POR15 (2
coats) but if some potassium hydroxide spills on bare AL, what happens?
Does it eat a hole through it, or does it just form an insulating patina?
Also is 75 volts DC safe in the event I accidentally touch two battery
posts? I know 36/48 is safe but how about 75?
The battery interconnections will be nickel plated, the battery box will
be power vented with fans, and I will put a cover over the center tunnel
with it's fuses and the contactors.
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
My NiCad STM's that I used to have on my motorcycle spewed their guts on my
aluminum battery racks on several occasions. It definitely stained them
white, but did not seem to eat into them at all. I've still got many of the
pieces lying in a box, and they still look ugly, but don't seem to have
deteriorated over time.
damon
From: Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Putting NiCDs in an aluminum box
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 10:44:39 -0500
Ok, I've been measuring the batteries and it looks like I can fit 126 BB600
cells per side in my 94 S10 truck. Total of 252 batteries, or a 304 base
voltage. It will be a snug fit, and I will be putting in temp sensors for
telemetry, but they will fit, and I can wire the disconnect to split the
pack into 4 75 volt segments for safety
My question: How dangerous is it to put flooded NiCDs in an Aluminum box?
This is thick stuff, and I am painting the bare metal with POR15 (2 coats)
but if some potassium hydroxide spills on bare AL, what happens? Does it
eat a hole through it, or does it just form an insulating patina?
Also is 75 volts DC safe in the event I accidentally touch two battery
posts? I know 36/48 is safe but how about 75?
The battery interconnections will be nickel plated, the battery box will be
power vented with fans, and I will put a cover over the center tunnel with
it's fuses and the contactors.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is great information. Thanks for the help.
Lee Hart wrote:
How much current does the circuit draw? Depending on the size of the
contact, a circuit is considered "dry" is below about 10ma.
It is a HCPL-7800. If I am reading the data sheet correctly the input
current is below 1 ma.
If the
current is only 1ma or so, then I'd put a small capacitor across the LED
and resistor to cause a momentary current pulse.
I am concerned that I will have to wait for the capacitor to 'fill' before I
take my reading. My relay needs .015 of a second to settle (including
bounce). To be safe, I am waiting .05 to read. Would that be long enough? I
have 88 cells to read, so faster is better.
Roger Stockton wrote:
Check the datasheet for your particular relays to see if they specify a
minimum current or not. The 40A automotive relays used in some of our
chargers specify a minimum close current of 1A; your 30A relays may be
similar.
The data sheet (http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/T9A_DS.pdf)
does specify a minimum contact load of 1 amp at 5 volts. For most readings,
my load is < 1 milliamp but occasionally, to boost or balance, the relay
will carry up to 18 amps at around 4 volts.
They do not specify what will happen if you do not meet the 'minimum contact
load'. It also seems a little unclear whether 'minimum contact load' means
the load the relay breaks or the load the relay carries when closed. In my
case, it never breaks the 'minimum contact load'.
Am I being too clever in my software? Should I just leave the Vicor dc/dc on
and break the <18 amp load? Will this hurt the Vicor?
Reading the voltage drop on a couple of relays I am typically seeing 230
millivolts at 8.6 amps. .230 volts / 8.6 amps = .027 ohms
The data sheet says .075 ohms max. for 'initial contact resistance' but
offers no information after the contacts are closed. Is .027 ohms normal or
indicative of dirty contacts?
Can I deduce that my error reading cell voltage per relay is around .027
ohms * .001 amps = .000027 volts? If so, it is minor enough for my purposes
to ignore.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
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