EV Digest 5294
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: internal resistance
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Aluminum/Zinc air batteries
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Public charging -- DC generator
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Selecting an ammeter and shunt
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: rust removal
by Brian Cole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: DC-DC converter: How to select?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: STM5-100
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by "Shawn Waggoner " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Public charging -- DC generator
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by Lowell Simmons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: PFC-20 and regulator woes
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: DC Motors for Racing (and Matt's Nissan 200SX)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: my (theoretical) setup
by Pascal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Congratulations to Matt Graham and Lowell Simmons!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Aluminum/Zinc air batteries
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:21 AM 3/29/2006, you wrote:
Hey Don
I'll chime in here with what I know. First John Wayland is the only
one running a Siamese motor to date, Matts running what I'd call a twin
motor setup (sorry Matt 8^ P ). Both run the same but there are alot of
differences, mostly weight, length, and shaft styles. Everything you've
stated looks correct to me, except the reverse contactors. If it were
just 1 or 2, I'm sure Wayland and Matt would have them installed by
now. I'm still scratching my head on how to get these to reverse easier
than a standard contactor reverse. As
Need to make a rotary switch like below, the * are contacts in a fireproof
insulating board, the O is a center pivot point. The contacts have cables
connected to them going to the indicated parts.
FIELD 1
*
FROM CONTROLLER * O * TO ARMATURE
*
FIELD 2
Now we add a second fireproof board that can turn about the pivot point and
is spring loaded against the contacts on the first board. This second
board has two conductive bars on it which short together the appropriate
contacts on the first board.
FIELD 1
*
/
FROM CONTROLLER * O * TO ARMATURE to run in one direction
/
*
FIELD 2
Now rotate board the second board 90°.
FIELD 1
*
\
FROM CONTROLLER * O * TO ARMATURE to run in the other direction
\
*
FIELD 2
You would never want to rotate the second board under load but that should
not be a problem in this app.. The contacts and shorting bars can be made
large enough to handle any current you want, and unless it fails to make
good contact the only voltage it will see is the drop across the field.
to the shift, the Zilla controlls when it shifts or it can be set to
manual, either way it tells the contactors when to trip. If set for auto
then the Zilla will shift when the amps come down to half (maybe able to
be set at what ever you want it to shift at, Otmar??) So if the guys jam
the peddle and pop 1800 amps it shifts at 900 and yes this would be racer
scary (trust me, hehehe)(Tim gave me a fun ride last month, lmao!) if
you take off a!
t a lower
speed it would shift with a less back slamming force. Right now getting
the reverse worked out is the real head scratcher.
Hope this helps, I'll let the masters chime in now, hehehe.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com
Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am **very** interested in this DC siamese motor config of John's and
Matt's. Here is what I undestand so far (from what I have read here, the
archives and off the net):
- single Zilla 2K controller
- 300+ volts of high current batteries
- two 9" Warp motors, mechanically in series, with the brushes advanced
- no transmission, just a rear end (around 4.1:1)
- electrically the motors are initially series for lots of torque, then via
BF contactors (Bubbas) are switched to parallel for lots of power
- in series each motor only see half pack voltage (obviously)
- in parallel the motors can see full pack voltage, however this is limited
by the controller to 170V to prevent arc-over.
- about a 6000RPM redline on the 9" motors
So, a few questions:
- it appears there is going to be a lot of contactors if this is going to be
a street vehicle as well as a fast race car:
2 contactors for main power
2 contactors for series-parallel switch
1 contactor for reverse (or is it two?)
- how does one switch from series to parallel? If it was just the
contactors, that would be understandable, but it appears to be controlled
from the Zilla controller.
- is the series/parallel switched under full load? Is it a real rough shift
(like drag race scarey - BANG?)
Thanks
Don
---------------------------------
Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo!
Messenger with Voice.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Carl Clifford wrote:
> I am investigating a pack for a 48v motorcycle conversion and looking
> at Hawker 0770-2007s... I notice much higher internal resistance for
> smaller batteries. 8.5 mohm vs 3.5 at the other end of the spectrum...
> If I parallel 4 small ones, would the internal resistance of the set
> approach a battery of a similar weight?
It should, if your external connections have a low enough resistance. If
both are built the same way, a battery of twice the weight should have
half the internal resistance, and parallelling two smaller ones would
result in the same overall resistance.
But resistances under 0.001 ohms are very difficult to achieve. Your
connections can easily have more resistance than the batteries
themselves.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 22:18:15 -0700, Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Hi Bill, Nick, Lawson, and everyone else that responded to my original post:
>
>> The holy grail, of course, is aluminum-air. It has energy densities
>>currently around 800Wh/kg, and theoretically up to 1300Wh/kg. Even at
>>800Wh/kg, an aerodynamic car could go over 300 miles on 75kg of the stuff.
>>That's not much more weight than a tank of gas!
You get excited about the prospect of having to lug an est 250 lbs of
waste product out of your fuel cell and lug in 165 lbs of aluminum
back in to go 300 miles? Assuming theoretical performance, of course.
Man, it doesn't take much to get you excited. That sounds like a LOT
of work and slop to me.
To go 300 miles in a 30mpg car takes 10 gallons of gas. That's about
65 lbs. That's a little more than "not much more".
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Evan - I don't think I will be replacing any Nicads - I have only
replaced the flooded leads in my Bedford EV with AGMs.
I am hoping to get Li - poly for the Citroen when the time comes.
If you want knackered Nicad batteries I can put you in-touch with a guy in
Southern Ireland who has some. But why you would want S/C monoblocs or
boiled dry ones.
Cheers
john
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
On 3/28/06, John Luck Home <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
There is no secret the YUASA batteries are pictured (1 of them) on my
site
www.bedfordev.flyer.co.uk.
There are 36 x 6volt 188A/H AGM , 216volt pack, and the makers claim a
life
of 10yrs. SAFT claim 70,000Km fore their Nicads but its a bit of a
lottery
as there were problems prior to 1999 with these monoblocs going
shortcircuit
and melting and I cannot find anyone who has driven more than about
30,000
miles on one set of batteries. Indeed there are many of these vehicles in
UK
that are non-runners being stripped for parts because of battery failure
and
due to the cost of buying new ones make them uneconomic.
John, I'll be happy to buy your Nicad pack when you've replaced it
with magic AGMs ;)
Regards
Evan
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--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 21:36:46 -0800 (PST), DM3
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I have worked at my job for 23 years and have not been able to charge
>there for the 13 I have had EVs. I have heard every excuse imagined
>including "homeless people will use the plug to cook with". I don't push
>it 'cause I like my job. As a result, I plan trips that do not require
>charging to get back home. My round trip to work is 58 miles (about 10
>too many) so I am contemplating using an old dc generator to charge both
>ways, the problem is that it is 115 volts. Has anyone used a dc generator
>to charge a pack?
You can buy one of those ChiCom honda clone generators from Pep Boys
for a little over $300, depending on what sale they're running. I
seriously doubt you could hack that generator around to get to your
pack voltage for that amount of money. Not to mention the weight,
noise and fuel consumption penalties (those old Kohlers were gas
hogs).
You didn't say what your pack voltage is. If it's 144 volts, you
could probably get there by upping the field voltage on that
generator. I don't know that particular generator but typically old
Kohlers and Onans used fields in the 35 volt range, supplied by
dropping the output through a large resistor. You'd have to monitor
the field to make sure it doesn't overheat, of course.
Since you're going to be hammering your pack anyway with that kind of
round trip and the modified Kohler would be little more than an engine
driven Bad Boy charger, I don't see the economics. I'd expect short
pack life. A high mileage gas or diesel car would probably be more
economical. At the very least I'd want to use a smart charger driven
by a conventional AC generator.
One other thought. Have you thought about proposing to your company
that you'd pay for a locking outlet box and pay for the power? A
written proposal and not just a chat. That would seem to be the
easier project, rather than having to use a generator.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, I've been cruising eBay for a DC ammeter and I've found several that
would make a good fit with faces that I lilke. None of them cover the 0-250
amp (or more) range that I want.
One ad states for a 50 amp meter states that if you use a 50 amp/50 mv shunt
you get face value. If you use a 100 amp/50 mv shunt, then X2 the face, and
so on. So assuming a constant shunt value of 50mv, r=sa X f
f
where r=the new max range of the meter and f= the max number printed on the
face (50 amps in this example) and sa= the shunt amps this formula will tell
you the new max amps that the meter will read. Let me make sure I have this
right:
The new max value for my 50 amp gauge (r) = 100 shunt amps @50 mv divided by
50 (face value) is 2. 2 X 50 = 100 so now my gauge will register up to 100
amps. I just have to relabel the gauge.
Phooey. I have a 250 amp, 100 mv shunt. Help me modify my formula to
include different millivolts so I can calculate what the gauge will read
with different shunts.
Sorry for being such a newbie. :)
Rich
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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--- Begin Message ---
Try molasses.
http://tinyurl.com/efuur
Read about it first on an Aussie site, and think s
crude sort of molasses was available from the cane
sugar processing plants. Other sites have more
specifics.
-brian
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Acuti wrote:
> I'm always reading about how everyone uses DC-DC converters in their
> EV's but I never see anything about brand names or specifications.
That's because most DC/DC converters are really just AC power supplies
that someone has pressed into service. There are a few "real" DC/DC
converters built for the purpose; Sevcon and DCP come to mind.
> My Comuta Van uses the old "house battery" arrangement to power the
> lights/horn/etc. Needless to say, my lights are dim and the wipers
> are slow.
I had the same problem with my ComutaVan. The wiring is such that 12v at
the battery becomes 10v at the headlights or wiper motor. This is normal
for most cars; when the ICE is running, the alternator is putting out
14v. The wiring drops 2v, so you have 12v at the headlight itself.
But the ComutaVan has no alternator or DC/DC converter. So, step one is
to "fix" the wiring to eliminate that 2v drop.
I did this by adding relays for the high- and low-beam headlights, and
contactor controller relays. For example, the wire that used to go to
the low-beam headlight powered the coil of a low-beam headlight relay.
Heavy short wires ran from the +12v battery to a fuse, from fuse to the
relay's Common contact, from Normally Open contact to headlight, and
from headlight to ground. The result was that there was less than a 0.1v
drop between battery and headlight, which is the same as any normal ICE
car that is idling with the altenator producing 14v.
Later, I removed the 12v accessory battery and used two Vicor VI-200
series DC/DC modules. I was running the stock contactor controller,
which divides the pack into two 36v strings. So each of these DC/DC
modules was powered by a separate half of the pack. Their outputs were
combined with a dual schottky diode. The battery was replaced by a big
electrolytic capacitor, so the lights didn't dim momentarily when the
wipers were started.
> good vendor that sells a 9-13 vdc input/15 vdc output that will supply
> enough amps to power halogen headlights, one wiper motor, turn signals,
> horn and radio?
My ComutaVan never topped 25 amps on the 12v system, though I didn't
have a radio and replaced the stock gasoline heater.
If you're going to power the DC/DC with its own 12v battery, all you
really need is a DC/DC with about a 3v high-current isolated output.
Connect this output in series with the 12v battery, and adjust it to get
the desired system voltage. For instance, if you want 14v, adjust the
DC/DC output to 20; 12v + 2v = 14v. This way, your DC/DC is far smaller,
cheaper, and more efficient.
But, it's more normal to run the DC off the main propulsion pack, and
then downsize or even eliminate the 12v accessory battery.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
you win :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: STM5-100
> >>> Philippe says the care regime is probably the cause of early failure
in the
> Nicads. - So come on Philippe "spill the beans" what should we be doing
that the
> manufacturer of the EV is not doing in the service routine and how can us
> enthusiastic owners do this properly without wasting our hard earned
dollars.
> <<<
>
> I'm only guessing here, but what about watering more often?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
they can take 200 continuously and 500A (if not deepleted) without ANY
problems > only if their temperature stay under 40°C !
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 4:37 AM
Subject: Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
> On 29 Mar 2006 at 2:38, Philippe Borges wrote:
>
> > I seen (proven also from their data recording charger) STM5-100 lasting
5
> > years before exchange ! during this they had taken every day abuse at a
16
> > karting renting track, this near 7 days/week.
>
> I suspect that it depends greatly on the application and on how the
vehicle is
> driven. When last I heard (a couple of years ago perhaps) Josef Brusa was
> still using the 180v set of STM5-100MREs he used to cross the Alps in
1997.
> They had started to show loss of capacity, but were still giving
acceptable
> service.
>
> http://www.brusa.biz/applications/e_mini_evergreen.htm
>
> Saft specifications for these modules call for limiting current to 200
amps
> continuously, 500 amps intermittently (10 seconds). However, it appears
to
> me that these monoblocks, especially the pre-1999 examples with the
earlier
> separator design, will give best service when limited to an absolute
maximum
> current of 200-250 amps.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don,
As Jim Husted indicated, only John's setup is an actual "Siamese" setup.
Matt's motors are inline and coupled with a chain coupler between motors.
The motors are mounted together in a steel frame assembly then mounted into
the car from underneath the car. (http://www.jouleinjected.com/motors.html).
Your understanding is correct with the setup, with the note that Matt's car
is using Albright SW202 reversing contactors for fwd/rev and
series/parallel. He has a separate SW200 for the main contactor. He has a
picture of the contactors here:
http://www.jouleinjected.com/images/contactors.jpg (this was before the
wiring got cleaned up!).
As far as your questions go:
As with Matt's setup, you only need 3 contactors, however, two of them are
reversing contactors. All of the contactors use additional aux contacts to
send a signal to the Zilla so it knows the current state of the contactors.
It monitors fwd/reverse, series/parallel and the main contactor. The Zilla
monitors the contactors for potential issues during operation, for example,
Matt was having a problem at the track one day with the series parallel
contactor. It would not shift fully into parallel. Looking at the data from
the Zilla after the run, the Zilla was attempting to shift, but never got
the signal that it had made the shift properly and dropped it back into
series mode.
Shifting from series to parallel can happen either automatically, controlled
by the Zilla, or configured to switch manually. In automatic mode, when all
the conditions for the shift are met, it drops the power for a fraction of
second, shifts the contactors to parallel and then re-energizes. This way it
will not be under full load/power when attempting to shift. In manual mode,
you can use a toggle switch to control when the shift happens. Again, during
the shift, the Zilla drops the power during the shift. Configuring between
automatic and manual is a value setting in the Zilla programming. It's very
easy to change.
Hope that helps,
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida EAA
www.floridaeaa.org
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
I am **very** interested in this DC siamese motor config of John's and
Matt's. Here is what I undestand so far (from what I have read here, the
archives and off the net):
- single Zilla 2K controller
- 300+ volts of high current batteries
- two 9" Warp motors, mechanically in series, with the brushes advanced
- no transmission, just a rear end (around 4.1:1)
- electrically the motors are initially series for lots of torque, then via
BF contactors (Bubbas) are switched to parallel for lots of power
- in series each motor only see half pack voltage (obviously)
- in parallel the motors can see full pack voltage, however this is limited
by the controller to 170V to prevent arc-over.
- about a 6000RPM redline on the 9" motors
So, a few questions:
- it appears there is going to be a lot of contactors if this is going to be
a street vehicle as well as a fast race car:
2 contactors for main power
2 contactors for series-parallel switch
1 contactor for reverse (or is it two?)
- how does one switch from series to parallel? If it was just the
contactors, that would be understandable, but it appears to be controlled
from the Zilla controller.
- is the series/parallel switched under full load? Is it a real rough shift
(like drag race scarey - BANG?)
Thanks
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The situation should be very different with a generation, particularly
an inverter gen with a plastic case.
I pointed out awhile ago that the Honda's plastic case need not be
grounded. This is very important to note! This means a simple variac,
full wave bridge, and some kind of current limiting should be just fine
as long as you don't connect any other wires to the gen (like the 12v
outlet, which may or may not be isolated from the gen's ground).
Normally this type of nonisolated charger schematic, though done by many
at home and at least one commercial charger- is a no-no and is not as
safe as it should be. But there are substantial cost and complexity
differences in a building it with an isolated transformer.
The proper thing to have would be a buck-boost converter, which is not
nearly as complicated or expensive as a transformer though it is beyond
the abilities of someone without some degree of electronics design
experience. The inverter generators have a very limited power output
and it would be really cool since a proper converter could have controls
to adjust the loading to the max the gen can put out (which, BTW,
changes with altitude and temp).
As noted many times before, one has to ask what the point of this is
though. Even a 4-stroke inverter gen has no emission system and thus
puts out far more pollution per gallon/mile and will probably take much
more fuel per mile than most new sedans. They are also fairly noisy. I
know the argument is usually that a small gen would allow you to use an
EV in rare circumstances where you needed more range thus allowing you
to justify the work in making the EV in the first place so you're able
to make many EV trips for every EV-genny trip, whereas otherwise you
would have just given up and bought a Geo Metro. But just keep in mind
how bad those gens are.
Danny
Neon John wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 21:36:46 -0800 (PST), DM3
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have worked at my job for 23 years and have not been able to charge
there for the 13 I have had EVs. I have heard every excuse imagined
including "homeless people will use the plug to cook with". I don't push
it 'cause I like my job. As a result, I plan trips that do not require
charging to get back home. My round trip to work is 58 miles (about 10
too many) so I am contemplating using an old dc generator to charge both
ways, the problem is that it is 115 volts. Has anyone used a dc generator
to charge a pack?
You can buy one of those ChiCom honda clone generators from Pep Boys
for a little over $300, depending on what sale they're running. I
seriously doubt you could hack that generator around to get to your
pack voltage for that amount of money. Not to mention the weight,
noise and fuel consumption penalties (those old Kohlers were gas
hogs).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I am **very** interested in this DC
siamese motor config of John's and
Matt's. Here is what I undestand so far (from what I have read here, the
archives and off the net):
- single Zilla 2K controller
- 300+ volts of high current batteries
- two 9" Warp motors, mechanically in series, with the brushes advanced
- no transmission, just a rear end (around 4.1:1)
- electrically the motors are initially series for lots of torque, then via
BF contactors (Bubbas) are switched to parallel for lots of power
- in series each motor only see half pack voltage (obviously)
- in parallel the motors can see full pack voltage, however this is limited
by the controller to 170V to prevent arc-over.
- about a 6000RPM redline on the 9" motors
So, a few questions:
- it appears there is going to be a lot of contactors if this is going to be
a street vehicle as well as a fast race car:
2 contactors for main power
2 contactors for series-parallel switch
1 contactor for reverse (or is it two?)
- how does one switch from series to parallel? If it was just the
contactors, that would be understandable, but it appears to be controlled
from the Zilla controller.
- is the series/parallel switched under full load? Is it a real rough shift
(like drag race scarey - BANG?)
Thanks
Don
Our 944 also uses a two motor set up, with a chain coupler between 2 -8" ADC
XP motors. We use a single "bubba" main contactor, and an SW202 two contactor
set for series parallel. We have a transmission so don't need forward/reverse.
Matt has a SW202 set up to reverse one motor.
The Zilla has an autoshift option which requires full pot box signal to
activate. This works great on the track. When driving around town I disable
Autoshift and have a toggle switch to shift, This works real nice. I run 240
volts and love to tool around South Florida streets to about 45 MPH then shift
to parallel. The 45mph to 60mph is awesome (speedlimit allowing of course). I
usually use 5th gear only. I have a 411 tranxaxle ratio also. Hope this helps.
This car has just been running in this configuration since January. It gets
more fun to drive every time I hit the streets with it.
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC for low, low
rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The old Mk1s were solid but they could melt things.
The Mk2 did there job, but had limits and had contamination issues.
The Mk2B have it all but are contamination prone. They are analog and have
to be tuned so Conformal coating could mess up a setpot... so I have not
conformal coated them.
The Mk3 Digi Regs, look like they could be solid and the only things that
need to be uncoated are the programming header and the RJ jacks.
Mk3 Regs are in service as of this week on my Fiero.
I expect to have Mk3s available for the public May 1.
The Mk3 Reg is really the nifty Reg, You can read it and program it from a
laptop, and then watch the whole string work as you charge, and discharge.
For anyone who thinks Regs are not needed.... a couple of minutes watching a
stack of AGMs charge at 6 Kw...You can quickly see the batteries step out of
line, Then
You can enable the whole string of Reg for Dissapation.. and Poof.. all the
AMG's voltage lock into the voltage your Regs are set to. Then you watch the
Reg's heatsink temps climb.
I will be testing the Reg feed back to the charge today, Since I scan the
Regs from my laptop, and then feed the control lines Back to Wayland's
PFC50X charger.
I have 9 Regs on line and about 50 Ft of RJ wound all over the floor. 4800
Baud is pretty fast and solid...for now. 9600 Got flakey with more than 16
regs on the Buss.
I need to spend some time taking pictures of this operation. It's really
cool
For somebody that has spent 10 year swearing at Regs and spending weeks
dialing in Battery pack the hard way...These are a Dream come true.
The cool LEDs that wink when addressed are neat in a Dark room.
You can only get Mk2B and Mk3. The others I don't sell or support anymore.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Rich Rudman" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: PFC-20 and regulator woes
> With complexity aside, which version of your regulator was the most
> reliable in your opinion Rich?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > First it sounds like you have a bad regulator.
> > That happens...a lot more often than I like.
> >
> > The charger... not making power. that's a bad thing.
> > The Bussing sounds like you have a blown transitor in the power stage.
> >
> > Ship it back I will get it back on line. Since we are relativeley close,
> > This should be a quick fix.
> >
> > I will replace the Reg and retest everything.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 4:28 PM
> > Subject: PFC-20 and regulator woes
> >
> >
> > > I think I may have a problem with a Mk2b regulator and my PFC-20
> > > charger.
> > >
> > > One of my regulators, when connected to the REGBUS, caused the charger
> > > to immediately stop charging. I believe the blue light would come on
> > > solid, but I can't verify it any more - see below. It's not the
> REGBUS
> > > cables - I've tried it in different places with different cables.
> > >
> > > If the suspected bad regulator was not on the REGBUS then charging
> > > seemed to be taking place. The voltage would rise, and the regulators
> > > would flash green, and the amber light on the charger would flash
> along
> > > with them making a clicking sound every time a regulator kicked in.
> > > Eventually the timer light would be solid blue and the batteries would
> > > be gently fizzing.
> > >
> > > While troubleshooting, I did something that caused the PFC-20 to
> emit a
> > > quiet buzzing sound and a bad smell. Now it doesn't appear to be
> > > charging.
> > >
> > > I believe the thing I did just before the smell was to unplug the
> > > REGBUS cable from the bad regulator, which was on the far end of the
> > > daisy chain from the charger at the time.
> > >
> > > Now when I turn on the charger, the green POWER LED comes on, and the
> > > red WARN LED blinks twice and goes out. The LIMITS and TIMER LEDs
> stay
> > > off. If the amps knob is turned all the way down it doesn't buzz, but
> > > as you turn up the amps the buzzing noise gets louder. It's never
> very
> > > loud, though.
> > >
> > > Any suggestions?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Doug
> > >
> > > --
> > > Doug Weathers
> > > Bend, OR, USA
> > > <http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Jim...
And other Bench Racing EV Racers...
The Quote of 772 ftlbs of torque and 348 volts is clearly a Bogus number...
John, Jim and others... It should real with 348 volts of Battery, he made
772 Ftlbs of torque.....
There is NOW way that he had 348 volts on the motor... Can't happen....
Battery Sag, motor brush arcing...... this can't happen the motor would
disspear in a ball of Arcing vaporizing copper.
The only Ev Racer that has a chance of living with over 300 volts on the
motor is Dennis Burbe's modified for racing with his secret Brush compounds.
Wayland's Warp 8 and my Warp 8 have to be proteced with the Zilla by
limiting our motor voltage to less than 170 volts in parallel and less than
340 in Series. Our basicly stock Commutations and brush compunds, simpley
are not up to more voltage. Nice... but we have a LOT to learn about keeping
the Arcs down.
What DOES happen on the White Zombie, and Ot's 914 and My Fiero and Matt's
twin 9s is... the controller lets a programmed motor current fly as long as
the motor voltage limts are NOT active.
So... at the starting line you might have 2000 amps and say 20 to 60 volts,
This varies from a hand full of volts at maximum amps Where the Max amp can
not be supported by the power coming from the batteries, This is the Current
limited launch that We need to keep the tires on the ground does. Once the
Battery amps and volts fall to the point where the motors see what ever the
Lead can supply, Then it's time to shift, or wait a long time for the amps
to fall to 1/2 the peak before lighting off the parallel switch event.
So... you only have 772 Lbs Ft of torque flowing to the rear end.... when
you have 2000 amps flowing in the motors. And only this can happen in series
mode, and only when the motors are not spinning fast enough to have much
BACK EMF.
The real data point is more like at 1/2 pack voltage you have 174 volts on
the batteries, making 1100 motor amps... John's self imposed battery limit
At 174 volts The motors can't pull more than say 2000 amps and at less than
2500 Rpm...in series they can't. I really need a motor chart for this...
So..The max Torque can only be made from zero Speed to about 40 miles per
hour.
There are other factors tha would make this number even lower... But I don't
have them.
The Best Guess is the peak motor torque , happens at less than 95.7 motor
volts. This should be the point where the Zilla comes off of 2000 motor
amps. Asuming a perfect Buck conversion in the Zilla.
This is less than the 170 volts self imposed Limit on non modified motors
and brush rigging and brush compunds.
Yes Campers... Plasma Boy could use more controller.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 3:39 PM
Subject: RE: DC Motors for Racing (and Matt's Nissan 200SX)
Hey Rodger, all
I just called Wayland and he informed me that Joe Smalley did the
calulations based off his 60 foot times, weight of the car and amperage,
ect. I'm sure John can add details here. I agree with you in that
collecting the data is a hard thing to get. Many of my mods are still
untested and it makes me crazy as I wait for the numbers to be reported.
BTW remember that it's been a pretty hard winter here this year and Wayland
like the rest of us works hard, long hours paying the bills so it takes time
to put together a trip to the dyno not to mention other EVents. I'm sure
John will pipe in here tonight (he's coming over the mountain tonight as a
matter of fact and I'll be having dinner with him (so I'll get to prod him
here, hehe)
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jim Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Well I know John Waylands Siamese8 setup runs 772 ft. lbs.
> @ 348 volts.
Hey Jim, how do you know this? Did John finally get the 'Zombie onto a
dyno like he's been hoping to on and off for the last year or more? Or,
did you guys dyno the motor on its own?
Either way, is there any more real data available; torque vs RPM curves,
etc.? Data like this is hard to come by for racing level voltages and
currents...
Cheers,
Roger.
---------------------------------
Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo!
Messenger with Voice.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Pascal wrote:
> > Thx for the info, Lee. Which battery I should
> [use] instead of the
> > T-145?
>
> The T-145 (or US Battery equivalent) is a good
> battery for long range
> and low cost per mile. If these are your goals, it
> is a good choice.
Low cost per mile, isn't that everybody's goal :) The
less money we spend on charging, the more we feel
sorry for those people with a 'normal' ice-engine.
>
> If you are more interested in fast accelleration,
> then an AGM battery
> would be better, like the Optimas or Hawkers you'll
> see mentioned.
Accelleration isn't that important, just keeping up
with traffic so they won't tell me to buy a 'real car'
instead of this electrical thingy
> But they cost more and won't last as long, so your
> cost per mile is
> significantly higher.
>
> If you don't care about cost and want the longest
> range possible, then
> nicad, nimh, or lithium batteries are better
> choices. They are somewhat
> experimental, so your accelleration, life, and cost
> per mile are hard to
> predict. You usually have to pick them based on what
> you can actually
> get.
>
> > Which is suitable for the Curtis controller first,
> and perhaps on a
> > later date with a Zilla?
>
> Your batteries, controller, and motor should all be
> chosen for the same
> power level. The "weakest link" determines the
> performance of the whole
> system. A powerful motor and controller are wasted
> if you have weak
> batteries. Likewise for a weak controller with
> powerful batteries and
> motor, or a weak motor with high-power batteries and
> controller.
>
> The Curtis is a good lower-power controller, so it
> is a good match for
> flooded golf cart batteries and a smaller motor. The
> Zilla controller is
> higher power, and so works best with high-power
> batteries and a bigger
> motor.
I'll stick with the Curtis Controller then
>
> > Hillclimbing btw. is not an issue here in the
> netherlands...
>
> Ah, I didn't know that. The batteries, motors and
> controllers you can
> get there are undoubtedly different than in the USA.
They call The Netherlands, the low lands for a reason
:)
Batteries and controller isn't a problem, I located 2
different companies here in the Netherlands, the first
is the dealer for trojan batteries here in The
Netherlands, the other is a dealer of Curtis
controllers for The Netherlands, Belgium and Luxemburg
so no problems to get what I want, just looking now
for a dealer of Advanced DC-motors, but hey, we got
the Internet nowadays so I see no problems there too.
To come back on the batteries, would it be logical to
take 12v batteries like the Trojan 30XHS instead of
the 6v? I remember reading on this list that it is
better to take 6v batteries instead of 12v, because in
a 6v batteries the plates inside the cells are wider
apart then they are in a 12v or 24v batteries?
Pascal
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> NPL130-6 6 130.0 23.8 350 166 174
>
> NPL200-6 6 200.0 39 398 176 250
> The above batteries weigh 23 and 29 pounds respectively.
That would be wonderful, but you have confused mass in kg for weight in
lbs.
The 130Ah NPL130-6 is 23.8kg or 52lbs, and the 200Ah NPL200-6 is 39kg or
86lbs.
As a sanity check, the 200Ah 6V module is roughly equivalent to a T105,
and weighs accordingly. Typically gel or AGM batteries weigh a bit more
than a flooded of the same capacity, as in this case. A 200Ah 6V
lead-acid battery with 1/2 the weight of a T105 would truly be an
unusual find.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And... Sunday afternoon Bremerton Was open...
So... The track is Open this time of year....weather depending.
So John...we need to get ready.
Your PFC50X is waiting for the next trip South... of Reg Mk3 Testing chores.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 6:44 PM
Subject: RE: Congratulations to Matt Graham and Lowell Simmons!
> Hey everyone,
>
> John "It sure is wet and chilly over here" Wayland wrote:
>
> "Uh....Madman, not to try to take 'anything' away from Matt's
> accomplishment, but duh....our track doesn't even open until late April
:-)
> Living in the same Pacific Northwest area as I do, you of all people
should
> know this. Unlike balmy Florida, we have to wait for drag racing weather
to
> return after the Winter's ice and snow, and the early Spring's rains are
> behind us."
>
> Yeah, John. . .that's a shame! And what do you mean "balmy Florida"? I
> almost had to throw on a windbreaker on Wednesday night!
>
> Looking forward to warmer days for you, and quicker times and faster
speeds
> for White Zombie!
>
> Matt Graham
> 300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
> http://www.jouleinjected.com
> Hobe Sound, FL
>
> --------------------
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> >OOOOOOoooo!
> >Looks like Matt Graham is the first into the Madman's 100 for 2006. He
> >beat Wayland!.
> >
> >Madman.
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aw, don't get all persnickety on me, John. :) Compared to the equivalent
amount of lead-acid, I would indeed call it "not much more". Even compared
to Li-ion. And what's all this with the lugging? A driver wouldn't be
lugging any more than he "lugs" ten gallons of gas into his car from the
pump. Some smart fella like you will come up with a device to make it quick
and lug-less.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:18 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Aluminum/Zinc air batteries
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 22:18:15 -0700, Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Hi Bill, Nick, Lawson, and everyone else that responded to my original
post:
>
>> The holy grail, of course, is aluminum-air. It has energy densities
>>currently around 800Wh/kg, and theoretically up to 1300Wh/kg. Even at
>>800Wh/kg, an aerodynamic car could go over 300 miles on 75kg of the stuff.
>>That's not much more weight than a tank of gas!
You get excited about the prospect of having to lug an est 250 lbs of
waste product out of your fuel cell and lug in 165 lbs of aluminum
back in to go 300 miles? Assuming theoretical performance, of course.
Man, it doesn't take much to get you excited. That sounds like a LOT
of work and slop to me.
To go 300 miles in a 30mpg car takes 10 gallons of gas. That's about
65 lbs. That's a little more than "not much more".
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
