EV Digest 5293
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) DC-DC converter: How to select?
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: New ADC9 101 pics and stuff
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Congratulations to Matt Graham and Lowell Simmons!
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: rust removal
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Single Transistor Battery Charger
by "Steve Gibbs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Single Transistor Battery Charger
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Using two controllers to run an AC motor.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Trippy breaker was: Bonn bad bot charger
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Testing Contactors - Results
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Yuasa Little Red Book of Batteries
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: DC-DC converter: How to select?
by Steve O <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: rust removal
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Public charging -- DC generator
by Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Peak Detector
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Peak Detector
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Multi charger.
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: rust removal
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Bizarre Amphour Meter Idea
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: my (theoretical) setup
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: rust removal
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I'm always reading about how everyone uses DC-DC converters in their EV's
but I never see anything about brand names or specifications.
My Comuta Van uses the old "house battery" arrangement to power the
lights/horn/etc. Needless to say, my lights are dim and the wipers are slow.
I have the perfect space to parallel 2 twelve-volt deep cycle batteries so
that I have a good pool of amps to draw from but can someone point me to a
good vendor that sells a 9-13 vdc input/15 vdc output that will supply
enough amps to power halogen headlights, one wiper motor, turn signals, horn
and radio?
I can only guess at the amps that these systems draw, but I'll bet you guys
have generic numbers. I need to learn this kind of stuff for my Karmann Ghia
conversion.
Thanks in advance,
Rich A.
Maryland
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:18 PM 3/28/2006, you wrote:
Hey EVeryone
I got to got to work on a new ADC 9 today. It's the FB1-4001 without
the tail shaft and it was sent in to have a speed sensor upgrade. Well I
couldn't take it all apart without grabbing a few pics now could I??
The upgrade includes opening the CE plate face hole and drilling and
tapping two holes. I also made a plug that extends the shaft to mount
the magnet to. All in all a fairly straight forward job with no "fancy
stuff", but I found some "Jimmy-no-likey" things that I attended to while
I had this puppy was apart. When you get to the really jagged mica slot
pics remember this is a brand new motor ("shivers down motor guys back")
Yeeeeeee. Would anyone here want to leave those as is if it were your motor??
Anyways I got some new stuff at the site, some good pics of the Gone
Postal front motor repairs and upgrades also for those who may not have
been by in a while.
http://www.hitorqueelectric
This should work better.:)
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com
Looks like a really dull cutter and way more feed then you want. Or I
wonder if they are using a wiper insert, these have an area behind the
cutting edge that burnishes the cut surface, on some materials they can
make for a smoother surface even at fast feeds, but on an interrupted cut
you push a nasty bur off the trailing edge. And a comm is the definition
of an interrupted cut.:)
Before I continue I just have to tell you all about my morning this is
OT so some may wish to skip this section 8^ ) Now as I write this my
right arm is just killing me because this morning I had a nurse come by
for some "needed" tests cause I just got some life insurace (no worries,
not enough for the family to kill me off yet). Anyway this gal comes by
asks a bunch of questions and ended with drawing some of my blood, if you
could call it that. It started off well enough but the blood didn't come
out,or so I thought, lmao. Seeing my face she says I know I'm in cause
there's blood here and proceeds to twist the needle and tube up so I can
see this dab of blood dotting the plug. After what seems like her
stirring a martiny for 5 minutes she decides she'll try the other
tube. I'm at the point where I'm about to say something but the thought
of her having to stick me again is just beyond any resonable thought,
lmao!! Okay so she finally gets some red coming out but i!
t just
aint flowing good. At this point I start pumping my fists in an attempt
at getting some blood out, which it finally did (probably stabbed through
first vein to another deeper one, LMAO!!). BUT she tells me not to force
the blood as it can damage the cells! I'm thinking to myself that if the
blood moved any slower it clot on the Freaking tube before filling. Well
the sadistic bitch finally succeeded in getting 2 tubes of blood but I'm
telling you that 40,000 misquitoes would have done a better job. Maybe I
should grab a pic and through it in the hall of Flame album, hehe. I
just had to vent, stupid nurse, and she wasn't even cute!
Anyway John Wayland came by later in the day with a "Hot" motor and a
couple of smaller motors with shaft issues for future projects. Now I
know that Wayland has been out there getting people to commit to going to
the High Voltage Nationals this May and I wanted to plug the EVent here
to. I'm really looking forward to attending and getting to meet EVeryone
that can get up there and in fact am shutting the shop down a week so I
can attend. I believe we'll have quite a group coming out from this side
of the country and I hope that maybe we can get as many of you good folks
up there as possible. Anyways I hope to see you in May 8^ )
BTW I am so digging the warmer weather returning after that greedy
James Massey hording it all these months, LMAO!! (Oh hey James, hehe)
Peace all
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque electric
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Matt,
Great write-up! Great job!
<I throw it in parallel >
Are you doing this manually every run or was it just for this run?
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
PS Good job Lowell and Miramar High School! Good luck at the EV challenge
April 7-8.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
I use a spray-on rust neutralizer made under the Naval Jelly brand.
There are other similar products, which supposedly turn the rust into
something benign and prime the metal for painting.
You have to remove as much of the rust as possible with a wire brush
or sandpaper. Then you spray on the neutralizer and let it sit for
24 hours. The rust turns black and the part is ready to be painted.
Ralph
mike golub writes:
>
> I'm using some angle iron to build battery boxes, etc.
>
> I guess could soak the parts in HCL, but I just heard
> of a better solution, but I don't know all the
> details.
>
> They said I could take a solution of water and Soda
> Ash (CaCO3) and then insert the piece of steel in the
> water, and then take 12 volt dc power supply and put
> one lead on the metal, and the other into the water.
>
> Not sure which lead goes where + or -?
>
> Also not sure of the concentration, or amps required.
>
> any suggestions would be great.
>
> thanks in advance!
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electric Design magazine has a schematic for a relatively simple battery
charger based on high and low voltage thresholds. Although the currents we
encounter will be higher than those anticipated in the schematic are
different this looks like an interesting concept in battery charging that
could apply to our EVs.
The article is at
http://www.elecdesign.com/Article/ArticleID/1823/1823.html. The schematic
linked to in the article may be viewed at
http://www.elecdesign.com/Files/29/1823/Figure_01.gif.
For those of you who design charging systems for EVs, I'd be interested in
your comments regarding this design.
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There should be some hysteresis built in which they don't mention.
Otherwise I wonder if an oscillation could start. No current control.
Easy enough to breadboard.
Mike
--- Steve Gibbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Electric Design magazine has a schematic for a relatively simple
> battery
> charger based on high and low voltage thresholds. Although the
> currents we
> encounter will be higher than those anticipated in the schematic are
> different this looks like an interesting concept in battery charging
> that
> could apply to our EVs.
>
>
>
> The article is at
> http://www.elecdesign.com/Article/ArticleID/1823/1823.html. The
> schematic
> linked to in the article may be viewed at
> http://www.elecdesign.com/Files/29/1823/Figure_01.gif.
>
>
>
> For those of you who design charging systems for EVs, I'd be
> interested in
> your comments regarding this design.
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So six controllers? How would you wire that? Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: Using two controllers to run an AC motor.
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Could two chopper/Curtis/Zilla/Altrax/etc.....motor controllers mimic
AC to run a AC brushless motor?
No, there aren't enough parts there.
A normal chopper-type PWM DC motor controller (Curtis, Zilla, Alltrax)
basically has one high-power transistor and one high-power diode. A
normal AC motor controller has SIX high-power transistors and diodes.
So, a DC PWM controller gets you about 1/6th the way there. :-)
Now if you get picky, each of the AC controller's transistors and diodes
can be smaller. Overall, the AC controller has about twice the silicon
for a given power rating.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
You've touched on something with your description of the Bonn charger.
My USE truck has the factory 240 to 208 step down transformer
installed. Whenever I plug it into the 240vac outlet, the breaker
trips. I added switchs in series with each phase. When the 240 is
turned on one phase at a time the breaker does not trip.
Would a series inductor keep the breaker from tripping?
Mike
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
The extra time to charge the capacitor is negligible. You only need the
current pulse during the time it takes the relay's contact to actually
close and stop bouncing; usually under 1 msec. Your 15 msec relay
closure time is probably 14 msec from powering the coil until the first
contact closure; then 1 msec of bounce. After that the contacts stay
closed.
If you want to get analytical, suppose you are reading a 12v battery
with negligible internal resistance. Your circuit is:
_____/_____
| relay |
| >
__|__+ > 10k
___ 12v >
| - _|_
| _\_/_ optocoupler LED
|___________|
When the relay contact closes, only about 1ma flows from the 12v
battery.
The data sheet (http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/T9A_DS.pdf)
does specify a minimum contact load of 1 amp at 5 volts.
The Li-Poly will never hit 5 volts (I hope). The range will be 2.8 - 4.2
volts. Is that a problem?
Ok, so add an RC "snubber" like this:
_____/____________
| relay | |
| > >
__|__+ 10 > > 10k
___ 12v > >
| - _|_ _|_
| 100uF ___ _\_/_ optocoupler LED
|___________|______|
The 10 ohm resistor and 100uF capacitor have a time constant of 1 msec.
When the contact first closes, the capacitor is discharged; so the peak
current is I = 12v/10ohms = 1.2 amps; it meets the specified minimum.
But over the next 1 msec, the capacitor will charge to 63% of 12v, and
after 5 msec it is within 99% of 12v.
So with the Li-poly and 3.7 volts:
I = 3.7v/max of 3.7 ohms to = > 1 amp.
Note that a tiny cheap 100uF capacitor probably has an intrinsic ESR of
a few ohms all by itself; most designed-for-cost engineers won't bother
with an actual resistor. Lowering the resistance increases the peak
current, but the capacitor fully charges faster.
So just try a 100 uF capacitor and set the Fluke for inrush current and see
what I get seems like a good plan.
PS: The T9A is a really cheap, low-grade relay. Are you sure that's what
you want to use? They have versions that are mechanically identical but
with better contacts for your application.
--
That is what we chose 2 years ago when we designed the relay boards. The T9A
was priced reasonable and their pretty data sheet did not mention anywhere
that they were 'low grade'. I wonder why not <G>?
We have had four relays fail on us. Two from the 12 volt coil resistance
going to infinity. Two from the contacts failing.
Thanks for your help.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some of you might find this helpful. Basic battery manual.
http://www.yuasa-battery.co.uk/ind_download.html
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Vicor - although mine doesn't seem to work!
Richard Acuti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'm always reading about how everyone
uses DC-DC converters in their EV's
but I never see anything about brand names or specifications.
My Comuta Van uses the old "house battery" arrangement to power the
lights/horn/etc. Needless to say, my lights are dim and the wipers are slow.
I have the perfect space to parallel 2 twelve-volt deep cycle batteries so
that I have a good pool of amps to draw from but can someone point me to a
good vendor that sells a 9-13 vdc input/15 vdc output that will supply
enough amps to power halogen headlights, one wiper motor, turn signals, horn
and radio?
I can only guess at the amps that these systems draw, but I'll bet you guys
have generic numbers. I need to learn this kind of stuff for my Karmann Ghia
conversion.
Thanks in advance,
Rich A.
Maryland
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike,
The flow direction is the same direction when you discharge a battery, from
positive to negative when plating a target base object that is connected to
the negative. In plating which I do in a small plating kit for re-plating
original parts for my classic car, the positive is connected to the anode
bars which is suspension in the bath that will contain various acids, salts,
sulfates of metals.
Sometimes the anode (positive) bars are the material that is used to plate
the base object that is connected to the cathode (negative).
Before we plate a object, it can be electrocleaned. You reversed
everything, the current flow. Normally, used a separated cleaning tank made
out of stainless stain where the cathode (negative) is directly connected
to.
If you used the same tank as for plating which would be a non-conducting
type as a plastic, glass, or wood, than suspend several stainless plates all
around the target object. If you only put one cathode plate in. The plating
or cleaning may be only on one side.
It is best to used a stainless steel tank, where the cathode (negative) is
360 degrees around the item you want to clean.
The object is attached to the positive lead and immersed in the solution for
20-30 seconds for conditioning a clean object before plating. The current I
used is from a 12 volt 100 ah battery which I can adjust with a resistor or
rheostat.
Power supply for a electro plating only range from 0 to 10 amps at 10 volts
and 0 to 50 amps at 6 volts which are specially design for electro plating.
In plating, if you too high of a ampere, than the object that you are
plating will be rough and pitted. The lower the ampere, the smoother the
plating will be.
In cleaning, you can turn up the current more which will make the
electrolyte solution bubble faster and may emit a explosive gas, so you must
have good ventilation if you turn up the current.
You can try the CaCo3 and see what's happens. It may take longer than 30
seconds or maybe hours. The electrocleaning solution is a alkaline solution
that is commercially prepared is call Oakit. Used 1 oz to one quart of
water.
Or you can mixed the following chemicals:
Sodium Cyanide 4 oz.
Sodium Cabonate 6 oz.
Sodium Tribasic Phosphate 3 oz.
Caustic Soda 1 oz.
Distill Water 1 gal.
With this solution, you may need up to 5 minutes which depends on the
coating thickness on the object you want to de-plated.
My plating container I used for long steels rods that are 4 feet long is a
vertical glass tube that is 3 inches in diameter. To test up the
de-plating, I insert a old tarnish copper pipe and connecting 10 volts from
six D-cells batteries with no ampere control. I used plain tap water. The
copper pipe turn bright frosted copper and the water converted to a copper
sulfate in with a minute.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "mike golub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:25 PM
Subject: rust removal
> I'm using some angle iron to build battery boxes, etc.
>
> I guess could soak the parts in HCL, but I just heard
> of a better solution, but I don't know all the
> details.
>
> They said I could take a solution of water and Soda
> Ash (CaCO3) and then insert the piece of steel in the
> water, and then take 12 volt dc power supply and put
> one lead on the metal, and the other into the water.
>
> Not sure which lead goes where + or -?
>
> Also not sure of the concentration, or amps required.
>
> any suggestions would be great.
>
> thanks in advance!
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why not offer to have an outlet installed by a licensed electrician with a
meter/base unit that shows the kilowatts you use. That way you can pay the
boss for what he thinks he is losing.
It could be a cheapness issue.
RE: charging
Unless you wish to tow a rather substantial generator on a trailer behind your
vehicle that will run a typical pack charger and pay for the gasoline to run
it, it is probably not worth the cost or trouble.
Just my two cents worth....
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
---- DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have worked at my job for 23 years and have not been able to charge
> there for the 13 I have had EVs. I have heard every excuse imagined
> including "homeless people will use the plug to cook with". I don't push
> it 'cause I like my job. As a result, I plan trips that do not require
> charging to get back home. My round trip to work is 58 miles (about 10
> too many) so I am contemplating using an old dc generator to charge both
> ways, the problem is that it is 115 volts. Has anyone used a dc generator
> to charge a pack?
> http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Kohler/KohlerMenu1.htm
>
> Model 1.5M5
>
> Thanks,
> Jimmy
>
>
> From: "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Ok, it's true. I plugged in without asking.
> He said he'd "set
> something up for me" but that I couldn't keep using those outlets and
> didn't
> explain why. I wonder if he thinks the charger draws an unsafe amount of
> amperage.
> What about approaching state legislature about charging spots like
> California has? Is this a fool's errand? Is there a good way to write a
> letter without sounding like a fringe lunatic?
> Thanks,
> Rich
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tell me more Philippe!
Why are wet nicad's not good with peak detecting? Isn't that a
characteristic off all nicad/nimh? I have seen peak detectors with
thermal sensing as well.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> If you plane to use STM or BB600 or other "wet" nicad:
> peak voltage detection don't work well enough for wet nicad you will see
> quickly charge problems (thermal runaway, imbalance)
>
> Use an emeter tracking Ah in/out telling when to stop at a constant
current,
> max voltage supply (8,15V/6 volt module)
> Add a temperature security relay cutting the charge if more than 45°
and you
> have a correct charge"inexpensive" solution.
> The best is a nicad programmed charger...
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 12:22 AM
> Subject: RE: Peak Detector
>
>
> > Cor,
> >
> > This peak detector is for charging a NiMH/Nicad pack for my truck.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > "a diode and a capacitor" is the basics of a peak detector.
> > > But your question sounds like "anyone having an amplifier?"
> > > It depends on what it needs to do:
> > >
> > > What are the driving and loading impedance,
> > > which freq does it need to respond to,
> > > what are the attack and decay time contants?
> > >
> > > Give me more info on the application and I (or someone else
> > > on the list) can give you more info on the proper dimensioning.
> > >
> > > Historical note: the first application of the peak detector
> > > that I know of was the famous crystal receiver for AM radio.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Cor van de Water
> > > Systems Architect
> > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> > > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 9:20 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Peak Detector
> > >
> > >
> > > Anyone have a peak detector schematic laying around? I've done web
> > > searching without any luck.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > > The misfits.
> > > The rebels.
> > > The troublemakers.
> > > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > > The ones who see things differently
> > > The ones that change the world!!
> > >
> > > www.RotorDesign.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > The misfits.
> > The rebels.
> > The troublemakers.
> > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > The ones who see things differently
> > The ones that change the world!!
> >
> > www.RotorDesign.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
NPL130-6 6 130.0 23.8 350 166 174
NPL200-6 6 200.0 39 398 176 250
Sorry for the small font. The above are two 6v Yuassa batteries one with
130 ah and one with 200 ah both at the 20 hour rate.
http://www.yuasa-battery.co.uk/images/downloads/Y12.pdf
Here is the address to see all their batteries (or if you can't read the
small font above) The above batteries weigh 23 and 29 pounds respectively.
These would make a nice long range scooter. I wonder if Mike Phillips
battery regulator would work with these. LR.......
---- Original Message -----
From: "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
Well I did say their energy density was different. The AGMs are around 30
watts/Kg and the Nicads I think are 55/Kg.
The AGM's are 188 A/H 6 volt YUASA.
The vehicles are different although I get the same range and speed from
them.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
Wow, you found some very light weight AGMs that put out 100 ahrs and will
last 1500 cycles. I'm impressed :-)
Something about your equation below does not add up. My guess is that
the two EVs you mention are totally different. From my experience a 6
volt AGM that could push a normal EV and still deliver 100 ahrs would
weigh at least 60 pounds and it certainly would not last 1500 cycles at
that rate. A 6 volt STM5-100 module weighs 28 pounds.
damon
From: "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 21:24:47 +0100
It is easy for me to compare like with like as I operate two Electric
Vehicles.
One vehicle runs from 36 AGM 6 volt cells which are providing 50 miles
per day at 40 - 55 MPH.
The other EV runs on STM5-100 Nicads and again give me 50 miles per day
and 40- 55 MPH.
HOWEVER - here comes the crunch - both sets of batteries have the same
life expectancy and yet to replace the AGM's will cost me around $1000
and the Nicads will cost me 10 times that amount.
So it is a simple conclusion that the STM Nicads ARE very much more
expensive even though their energy density is higher it is not an
economic way to proceed.
It means that the EV with Nicads is not economical once the batteries are
no good as the cost price of the vehicle is only $8000.
It is a simple equation
John
----- Original Message ----- From: "Philippe Borges"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
Let me say you have a good price !
very expensive ? it's only one part of equation, expensive compared to
what
? lithium ? lead acid ? apples ? (sorry)
no ! compared to a service !
For $11000 and good care your batteries will last way more than 1500
cycles
which turn to be minimum 120 000km (80 000 miles) still giving near 80%
of
initial capacity.
They Will give you every day 80km range, winter and summer (55 miles)
without worring about deep discharge (opposite in fact)
This said, write real numbers for competitors and then you will find
which
is expensive and which is a good battery choice, though at a high
initial
price, for every day use "forget me" commute.
I'm sorry to say there is no simple choice for such OEM car as you MUST
use
exactly same batteries or you will have to switch all EV components
which
are controlled by the Electronic Control Unit (charger, DC-DC,
controller...and even maybe the sepex motor/gearbox/diff. if you can't
find
suitable sepex controller...)
So imho your choice are:
-puting $10 000 to assemble a completely new EV system "maybe better"
car
(licensing it again etc.)
-puting $11 000 in batteries and just drive it
-finding another one second hand with good batteries (let me say near
impossible nowdays)
-...junkyard it :^(
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Luck Home"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:24 AM
Subject: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
Philippe said:-
> imho, STM5-100 will stay here for few years more...
>
> from one point of view it's a very good thing because this batteries
> >
are
> the
> best EV batterie actually at their price (remember always stating
imho,
> not
> starting a debat here)
>
What price have you been quoted Philippe. I asked SAFT for a price and
they
said £250 per 6v battery. ($450). To re-equip my Citroen this would
cost
around £6000 ($11000).
I think they are very expensive.
Amities
John
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why such long time constants Lee? Because it's a pack and not just a
single battery?
I'm a visual guy. Got a diagram to clue me in to the digital and
analog portions? I know I can't do the uP type PD.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> > This peak detector is for charging a NiMH/Nicad pack for my truck.
>
> Aha! That helps a lot. What you need is a very long-term peak detector.
> Something that detects the highest voltage over the last 5-15 minutes;
> not over millisecond periods. There are several approaches.
>
> The all-analog approach
> -----------------------
> Use a big capacitor and large resistor to get the desired multi-minute
> time constant. An opamp or comparator looks at the voltage across the
> resistor. When it is positive, you are still charging and haven't
> reached the peak yet. When it goes negative, you've reached the peak and
> have started back down.
>
> C(farads) = T(sec) / R(ohms). You generally don't want resistors larger
> than 1 meg if the circuit is expected to work at high humidity. So a
> 10-minute time constant requires C = 600sec / 1meg = 600uF.
>
> Capacitors this large will be +/-20% at best. So you can expect
> relatively low timing accuracy.
>
> The digital approach
> --------------------
> Use an A/D converter to convert the analog signal to a binary number.
> Compare this number to the number from a counter. The comparator has 3
> outputs; "greater than", "less than" and "equal". If the analog number
> is greater, count up. If the numbers are equal, do nothing. If the
> analog number is smaller, you've found you peak; use this output to turn
> off your charger.
>
> The Lester "CompuTime II" chargers use this method. It takes an opamp
> and a few CMOS 400-series digital ICs.
>
> The microcomputer approach
> --------------------------
> The same as the above, except the logic is performed by software in a
> microcomputer.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Well, we did this on Rick Woodbury's Tango #3, and it was a "big deal".
He had 25 Optimas in the car, each with a 6.5" x 3" x 1"
charger/monitor. These contained a Vicor Batmod 12v 15amp charger, and a
little microcomputer that measured battery voltage, battery temperature,
charger current, charger temperature, and total pack voltage. They all
communicated serially to the dash unit and bulk charger. They wound up
costing about $300 per battery, and needed liquid cooling to get the
heat out of battery box.
Wow! $300 is a little costly. I think the Vicor is about $110, that means
$190 for the rest?
Did you build in 'weakest battery' boost while driving with this system?
IMHO The best thing about your original battery balancer design is that it
makes the battery pack less prone to complete failure while driving. If a
single battery starts going bad, the driver can keep using the vehicle until
he gets time to have the battery replaced. The motor and the controllers are
already pretty bullet proof. The battery pack is the weak link in building a
100,000 mile car to try and match today's ICE.
Any guess how much it would bring down the price doing just battery voltage,
maybe temperature, on/off output to the Vicor and EVIL bus to a Dash unit?
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am **very** interested in this DC siamese motor config of John's and
Matt's. Here is what I undestand so far (from what I have read here, the
archives and off the net):
- single Zilla 2K controller
- 300+ volts of high current batteries
- two 9" Warp motors, mechanically in series, with the brushes advanced
- no transmission, just a rear end (around 4.1:1)
- electrically the motors are initially series for lots of torque, then via
BF contactors (Bubbas) are switched to parallel for lots of power
- in series each motor only see half pack voltage (obviously)
- in parallel the motors can see full pack voltage, however this is limited
by the controller to 170V to prevent arc-over.
- about a 6000RPM redline on the 9" motors
So, a few questions:
- it appears there is going to be a lot of contactors if this is going to be
a street vehicle as well as a fast race car:
2 contactors for main power
2 contactors for series-parallel switch
1 contactor for reverse (or is it two?)
- how does one switch from series to parallel? If it was just the
contactors, that would be understandable, but it appears to be controlled
from the Zilla controller.
- is the series/parallel switched under full load? Is it a real rough shift
(like drag race scarey - BANG?)
Thanks
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So if I read this correctly, I could take my rusty Elec-trak mowing
deck, chuck it into a large plastic tub, fill it with water and washing
soda and "electro blast" it clean.
Ok, I understand the science and everything, my question is, could I use
the elec-trak itself to power this or is 36v too high? My only dc
chargers are golf cart chargers and
I don't know if they are strong enough or would even work to do this?
If I could do it with the ET would I have to do something to limit the
current output or is it "more the merrier"?
James
On Tue, 2006-03-28 at 21:51 -0800, lyle sloan wrote:
> http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Don
I'll chime in here with what I know. First John Wayland is the only one
running a Siamese motor to date, Matts running what I'd call a twin motor setup
(sorry Matt 8^ P ). Both run the same but there are alot of differences,
mostly weight, length, and shaft styles. Everything you've stated looks
correct to me, except the reverse contactors. If it were just 1 or 2, I'm sure
Wayland and Matt would have them installed by now. I'm still scratching my
head on how to get these to reverse easier than a standard contactor reverse.
As to the shift, the Zilla controlls when it shifts or it can be set to manual,
either way it tells the contactors when to trip. If set for auto then the
Zilla will shift when the amps come down to half (maybe able to be set at what
ever you want it to shift at, Otmar??) So if the guys jam the peddle and pop
1800 amps it shifts at 900 and yes this would be racer scary (trust me,
hehehe)(Tim gave me a fun ride last month, lmao!) if you take off a!
t a lower
speed it would shift with a less back slamming force. Right now getting the
reverse worked out is the real head scratcher.
Hope this helps, I'll let the masters chime in now, hehehe.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com
Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am **very** interested in this DC siamese motor config of John's and
Matt's. Here is what I undestand so far (from what I have read here, the
archives and off the net):
- single Zilla 2K controller
- 300+ volts of high current batteries
- two 9" Warp motors, mechanically in series, with the brushes advanced
- no transmission, just a rear end (around 4.1:1)
- electrically the motors are initially series for lots of torque, then via
BF contactors (Bubbas) are switched to parallel for lots of power
- in series each motor only see half pack voltage (obviously)
- in parallel the motors can see full pack voltage, however this is limited
by the controller to 170V to prevent arc-over.
- about a 6000RPM redline on the 9" motors
So, a few questions:
- it appears there is going to be a lot of contactors if this is going to be
a street vehicle as well as a fast race car:
2 contactors for main power
2 contactors for series-parallel switch
1 contactor for reverse (or is it two?)
- how does one switch from series to parallel? If it was just the
contactors, that would be understandable, but it appears to be controlled
from the Zilla controller.
- is the series/parallel switched under full load? Is it a real rough shift
(like drag race scarey - BANG?)
Thanks
Don
---------------------------------
Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo!
Messenger with Voice.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Sorry, I was referring to the AD537 chip. I had only looked at the
offset voltage and dismissed it, but after looking at the example
circuits for strain gauges and thermocouples (50mV peak input), it looks
like a good choice.
If you have any good recommendations for a absolute value circuit
suitable for use with a shunt, I'd be happy to hear it -- then you could
measure in both directions.
-- Eric
Lee Hart wrote:
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Hmmm, looking at this more, it looks like this would work well.
As long as you don't mind it counting only in one direction; these
"stepper" clock motors aren't reversible, and you can't have negative
frequency.
For instance, you could set the hands to 12:00 when fully charged, and
use it to count up the amphours extracted as you drive. Experience would
tell you that your pack was "dead" when the hands reach (say) 6:00.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pascal wrote:
> Thx for the info, Lee. Which battery I should [use] instead of the
> T-145?
The T-145 (or US Battery equivalent) is a good battery for long range
and low cost per mile. If these are your goals, it is a good choice.
If you are more interested in fast accelleration, then an AGM battery
would be better, like the Optimas or Hawkers you'll see mentioned. But
they cost more and won't last as long, so your cost per mile is
significantly higher.
If you don't care about cost and want the longest range possible, then
nicad, nimh, or lithium batteries are better choices. They are somewhat
experimental, so your accelleration, life, and cost per mile are hard to
predict. You usually have to pick them based on what you can actually
get.
> Which is suitable for the Curtis controller first, and perhaps on a
> later date with a Zilla?
Your batteries, controller, and motor should all be chosen for the same
power level. The "weakest link" determines the performance of the whole
system. A powerful motor and controller are wasted if you have weak
batteries. Likewise for a weak controller with powerful batteries and
motor, or a weak motor with high-power batteries and controller.
The Curtis is a good lower-power controller, so it is a good match for
flooded golf cart batteries and a smaller motor. The Zilla controller is
higher power, and so works best with high-power batteries and a bigger
motor.
> Hillclimbing btw. is not an issue here in the netherlands...
Ah, I didn't know that. The batteries, motors and controllers you can
get there are undoubtedly different than in the USA.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello James,
All you need is either 6 volts up to 50 amps or 12 volts at 12 amps to
de-plated a object to get a smooth surface. If you surface is deeply rusted
with pits, then it does not matter, you can go full ampere, but be care full
not to emit any explosive gases which will make the solution to jump out of
the container.
As a demonstration I did once outside, I took a 900 amp 3 phase rectifier
and apply full 250 vac 3 phase delta to a 3 gallon stainless steel container
where the container was the cathode and a series of suspended stainless
steel plates in a solution of distill water and baking soda.
In a instant the water blasted up in a column of gas and the water disappear
in less than a minute.
We could ignite the gas which is hydrogen and oxygen which made a series of
popping noise in the open atmosphere.
This is like overcharging a 1.5 volt battery cell with 280 volts.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: rust removal
> So if I read this correctly, I could take my rusty Elec-trak mowing
> deck, chuck it into a large plastic tub, fill it with water and washing
> soda and "electro blast" it clean.
>
> Ok, I understand the science and everything, my question is, could I use
> the elec-trak itself to power this or is 36v too high? My only dc
> chargers are golf cart chargers and
> I don't know if they are strong enough or would even work to do this?
>
> If I could do it with the ET would I have to do something to limit the
> current output or is it "more the merrier"?
>
> James
>
> On Tue, 2006-03-28 at 21:51 -0800, lyle sloan wrote:
>
> > http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp
>
>
--- End Message ---
