EV Digest 5296
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: my (theoretical) setup
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: STM5-100
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Testing Contactors - Results
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Single Transistor Battery Charger
by "Steve Gibbs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: DC Motors for Racing ft.lbs. and hp
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Newbie- Info on Compact Pick-up
by "Greg Swager" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Public charging -- DC generator
by DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: rust removal
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: STM5-100
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Peak Detector
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Public charging -- DC generator
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: STM5-100
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: STM5-100
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Bizarre Amphour Meter Idea
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Multi charger.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Newbie- Info on Compact Pick-up
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: my (theoretical) setup
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: my (theoretical) setup
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Jim, Shawn, Andre and Lowell, thank you very much for the information. I am
looking forward to getting the next project under development!
So it looks like I need to do some research in cooling, reversing and series
mechanical connection.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: March 29, 2006 7:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
I am **very** interested in this DC siamese motor config of John's and
Matt's. Here is what I undestand so far (from what I have read here, the
archives and off the net):
- single Zilla 2K controller
- 300+ volts of high current batteries
- two 9" Warp motors, mechanically in series, with the brushes advanced
- no transmission, just a rear end (around 4.1:1)
- electrically the motors are initially series for lots of torque, then via
BF contactors (Bubbas) are switched to parallel for lots of power
- in series each motor only see half pack voltage (obviously)
- in parallel the motors can see full pack voltage, however this is limited
by the controller to 170V to prevent arc-over.
- about a 6000RPM redline on the 9" motors
So, a few questions:
- it appears there is going to be a lot of contactors if this is going to be
a street vehicle as well as a fast race car:
2 contactors for main power
2 contactors for series-parallel switch
1 contactor for reverse (or is it two?)
- how does one switch from series to parallel? If it was just the
contactors, that would be understandable, but it appears to be controlled
from the Zilla controller.
- is the series/parallel switched under full load? Is it a real rough shift
(like drag race scarey - BANG?)
Thanks
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pascal wrote:
> Low cost per mile, isn't that everybody's goal :) The less money we
> spend on charging, the more we feel sorry for those people with a
> 'normal' ice-engine.
In the USA, the cost of electricity is small compared to the cost of
batteries. For example, I pay $0.065 per KWH. My EV goes 3 miles per
KWH. So my "fuel cost" is $0.022 per mile.
The cost per mile of batteries is much higher. My twelve flooded 6v golf
cart batteries cost me $500. They lasted about 15,000 miles. So they
cost me $500/20000 = $0.03 per mile.
The AGM batteries I am currently using cost $1500. From their present
condition, I don't think they are good for more than 10,000 miles. Thus
they cost $1500/10000 = $0.15 per mile.
> would it be logical to take 12v batteries like the Trojan 30XHS
> instead of the 6v? I remember reading on this list that it is better
> to take 6v batteries instead of 12v, because in a 6v batteries the
> plates inside the cells are wider apart then they are in a 12v or
> 24v batteries?
In general, 6v batteries are explicitly built for electric vehicles
(usually golf carts). 12v batteries are built for other, less demanding
applications (like UPS power supplies, marine trolling motors, etc.)
Thus, the 12v batteries don't hold up as well.
There are (rare) exceptions; 12v batteries that are built for some
electric vehicle like a floor scrubber. These can provide life
equivalent to 6v batteries. However, they generally cost more, since
they aren't building as many per year.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 29 Mar 2006 at 20:25, Philippe Borges wrote:
> I'm only guessing here, but what about watering more often?
I agree.
One of my concerns with these monoblocks is what happens if the watering
system malfunctions. It's a very simple system, and it really shouldn't.
However, I've heard of problems with the similar older system used with
removeable cell caps. It's apparently rare, but in a few cases, at least one
cell wasn't fully watered. When the MR/MRE modules are clamped down,
it's difficult to verify visually that the electrolyte level is where it should
be.
You can imagine what might result.
More frequent watering than called for by the specs - say, 2 or 3 times as
often - should at least give the user a fighting chance at watering before the
electrolyte level falls below the plates and destroys the module. It's a bit
of
an inconvenience, though.
BTW, it's a good idea to catch the overflow from the automatic watering
system in a glass jar, and pour it into your filling tank, as I'm told that it
may
contain a bit of KOH.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jay Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Seems to me it would be much simpler to just put in a
> completely separate controller to handle reverse to one
> motor.
The problem here, I believe, is that to reverse a series motor you need
to reverse either the field or armature connections, but not both; that
is, you cannot simply reverse the polarity of the controller connections
to the motor.
Therefore, to spin the motor in reverse, you still have to provide some
means of reversing the field connections when reverse operation is
desired. As a result, it is easier to just use the existing controller
than to add another one just for reverse.
Now that said, what you suggest is fairly close to what John was
considering (last I heard): the thought was to use a separate small
motor just for reverse duty, if a suitably light motor and driving
mechanism could be devised. I don't know if he was planning on a
separate controller for it or just going controllerless.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> there are close to a dozen brands of these relays; I've found that
>> the Potter & Brumfield (aka Siemens, aka Tyco) and American Zettler
>> brands are more reliable, and clones like the Hasco or Grigsby Barton
>> are poor.
Rod Hower wrote:
> Song Chuan makes relays for most of the vendors listed above.
> http://www.songchuan.com/detail1.cfm?item=30
Rats! I was afraid of that. Clients I have worked for use millions of
these relays. The variations in quality were so bad that we had to do
our own testing to verify what they would *really* switch for 100k
cycles (or whatever). At that time (a few years ago), the P&B T9A series
was made in Mexico, and the T90 in the USA; the Mexican T9A had about
half the life. The Hascos were made in China, and also bad. The other
good performers were Aromat (made in Thailand) and American Zettler
(made in USA).
Sounds like I'm going to have to start a whole new round of relay
testing again.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks! It was obvious that the circuit was for light duty applications,
but it had characteristics that looked useful. The one you provided is
practical.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 5:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Single Transistor Battery Charger
Steve Gibbs wrote:
> [Electronic Design] magazine has a schematic for a relatively simple
> battery charger based on high and low voltage thresholds.
This circuit is too crude to bother with. It's just a
transformer-rectifier charger with a relay to switch it on/off at two
poorly-defined voltage thresholds.
There are many equally-simple circuits that work better. One is the
two-SCR circuit that GE published back around 1970 and has been used in
millions of inexpensive chargers. Here's the version used in the CitiCar
48vdc 25amp charger:
__
________________|\|________________/ \___48vdc
| _|_ |/|\ | \__/ pack+
| "full / \ I1 | D2 SCR | ammeter
| charge"\___/ #47 | GE C38A |
D1 bridge | lamp | 6.3v | 100v,35a |
100v,35a __|__ R1 > 0.15a | |
| + | 47 > | R3 |
___ ___|AC | 1w > | 1k |
_| || |_ | | |___|\|___|___/\/\___|
_| || |_ | | | |/| |
_| || |_ | | R2 > D3 1N4004 > R4
___| || |___| | 470 > 400v,1a > 20k
|AC | 5w > >
T1 |__-__| | D4 zener |
pri: 120vac | _|_ 1N4742A > R5
sec: 48vac,25a | _\_/_ 12v,1w / -->> 5000
| D5 SCR | \______|\|_____| >
| C106A | | |/| | |
| 100v,4a | > / C1+_|_ > R6
| | R7 > 47uF ___ > 5600
| | 1k > 25vdc | >
|__________|_____|__________|___|________48vdc
pack-
This circuit uses an SCR instead of a relay; the SCR won't wear out from
switching on/off. It also has a zener diode, which provides a much more
precise voltage threshold than the transistor base-emitter junction.
Otherwise, it works the same; it charges at full power until the battery
reaches a threshold voltage (set by R5). Then it cycles on/off to hold
the battery at this voltage. If R5 is set to a good float voltage, this
charger can be left on indefinitely, but will take well over 24 hours to
reach "full". If set for a higher voltage, it reaches "full" sooner, but
will overcharge if left on.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Rich
Don't want you thinking that I snitched you off to John or anything, hehe. I
saw your post about the 772 ft.lbs. and it read (to me) like you were saying
they couldn't, due to the battery sag, and the fact the motors don't see over
170 volts, ect. Anyway I don't want to be quoting bogus numbers, as it's
important to me to be as informed as I can. I guess when I stated the 772 I
should have said peak, would that be correct??
Anyways it gave me a reason to rat you out (I mean ask) to John and tell him
that you said he's full of crap, lmao!! To top it off I lost internet and I
couldn't read it to him, so next time don't answer your phone and let him stew
on it over the mountain 8^ P
On a final note I made an electric scooter this evening. It's ugly as sin
but I think Kayla will dig it till I gut it out for a better project. Matt and
Shawn sent me out a little TSP controller (thanks guys) and I found a little
baby PM motor and rigged it up as a friction drive, no I ain't posting no pics
either, lmao. I can finally say I've built my first EV though, even gave me a
small EV grin, lmao.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I live in rural area and the roads are flat. The majority of maximum
speed is 55 mph with 4 curves (25-45 mph). It'll be about 25-30 miles
roundtrip. I'm planning to use S-10 or Ranger because I need a pick-up,
not car, for agricultural errands.
My plan is to buy a conversion kit from Electro-Automotive
(http://www.electroauto.com/), with 9" motor and (24) 6V batteries (most
likely Trojan). Clutch and manual transmission will be used. I am
concerning if the pick-up will have enough power for 25-30 miles at
majority of highway speed. Is that sufficient?
Regards,
-gs
--
Greg Swager
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> ---- DM3 wrote:
> > I have worked at my job for 23 years and have not been able to charge
> > there for the 13 I have had EVs. I have heard every excuse imagined
> > including "homeless people will use the plug to cook with".
>> My round trip to work is 58 miles (about 10 too many) so I am
>>contemplating using an old dc generator to charge both ways. Has anyone
>>used a dc generator to charge a pack?
> > http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Kohler/KohlerMenu1.htm
> > Model 1.5M5
> > Jimmy
> From: Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Why not offer to have an outlet installed by a licensed electrician with
> a meter/base unit that shows the kilowatts you use. That way you can
> pay the boss for what he thinks he is losing.
>
I work for a major corporation with an extensive ride share program. They
have monthly giveaways including cash.
When 3 employees had GM EV1s they refused to install Free chargers.
The official story was that the legal department stops support due to
liability of someone getting hurt from the charging equipment. >
> RE: charging
> Unless you wish to tow a rather substantial generator on a trailer
> behind your vehicle that will run a typical pack charger and pay for the
> gasoline to run it, it is probably not worth the cost or trouble.
>
I only need a 20% charge to get back home, if I charged on the way to and
from and start the generator an hour before I leave it may be enough of a
charge to get home. I have a solectria E10 and I can throw it in the back
pretty easy.
I thought that a dc generator would be more efficient than an ac generator
with a battery charger.
Has anyone used a DC generator to charge a pack or have any info on using
one as a charger?
Thanks,
Jimmy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How successful is this product ?
Thanks
--- Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> I use a spray-on rust neutralizer made under the
> Naval Jelly brand.
> There are other similar products, which supposedly
> turn the rust into
> something benign and prime the metal for painting.
>
> You have to remove as much of the rust as possible
> with a wire brush
> or sandpaper. Then you spray on the neutralizer and
> let it sit for
> 24 hours. The rust turns black and the part is
> ready to be painted.
>
> Ralph
>
>
> mike golub writes:
> >
> > I'm using some angle iron to build battery boxes,
> etc.
> >
> > I guess could soak the parts in HCL, but I just
> heard
> > of a better solution, but I don't know all the
> > details.
> >
> > They said I could take a solution of water and
> Soda
> > Ash (CaCO3) and then insert the piece of steel in
> the
> > water, and then take 12 volt dc power supply and
> put
> > one lead on the metal, and the other into the
> water.
> >
> > Not sure which lead goes where + or -?
> >
> > Also not sure of the concentration, or amps
> required.
> >
> > any suggestions would be great.
> >
> > thanks in advance!
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh dear, you're taking personal credit for his concession when he said *I* was
the winner (in the guess of a care regime that keeps NiCds alive longer).
> Oh dear I'm sorry that you feel that this is some sort of fight with winners
> and losers.
>
> I only bring my thoughts, feelings and personal experience to the list to
> try and help others make their decisions and hope that when I have a
> question then others share their experiences and techniques with me and the
> rest of our "brotherhood" of EV enthusiasts.
>
>
> John
>
>
> > you win :^)
> >
> > cordialement,
> > Philippe
> >
> >
> >> >>> Philippe says the care regime is probably the cause of early failure
> > in the
> >> Nicads. - So come on Philippe "spill the beans" what should we be doing
> > that the
> >> manufacturer of the EV is not doing in the service routine and how can us
> >> enthusiastic owners do this properly without wasting our hard earned
> > dollars.
> >> <<<
> >>
> >> I'm only guessing here, but what about watering more often?
> >>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> Why such long time constants Lee? Because it's a pack and not just a
> single battery?
Think about it. It takes 8 hours to charge a battery from (say) 12v to
15v. 8 hours is 28,800 seconds, so your rate of rise is 3v / 28800s =
104 MICROvolts per second. If you used a 12-bit A/D converter to read
voltage, the least significant bit only changes about once every 8
seconds.
But there's no way you can build a battery charger that regulates its
output to 12-bit accuracy. 0.5% regulation is doing good, and that's 3
bits of dither.
So, your 12-bit A/D readings are dithering around +/-4 counts, and
you're trying to read a 1-count change? The only way you can do this is
to average many readings together. In practical terms, you average
several minutes worth of data before you can be sure that the slope of
the noisy signal really has flattened out, and that it's not just noise
caused by your AC power line voltage dropping, or drift from the charger
warming up.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 18:24:11 -0800 (PST), DM3
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I work for a major corporation with an extensive ride share program. They
>have monthly giveaways including cash.
>When 3 employees had GM EV1s they refused to install Free chargers.
>The official story was that the legal department stops support due to
>liability of someone getting hurt from the charging equipment.
Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? Asking the company
for a multi-thousand dollar expenditure for something that would
benefit exactly 3 employees is outrageous. Well heck, why not a
classically trained chef to prepare special meals for those who don't
want to brown-bag? If I'd been the boss, I'd not have used "legal" to
quash the request. I'd have laughed them out of my office - and maybe
out of the company!
If they'd asked for permission to locate a charger that THEY bought on
company property and were refused then I'd agree, they had a
complaint.
>I only need a 20% charge to get back home, if I charged on the way to and
>from and start the generator an hour before I leave it may be enough of a
>charge to get home. I have a solectria E10 and I can throw it in the back
>pretty easy.
>
>I thought that a dc generator would be more efficient than an ac generator
>with a battery charger.
Perhaps but probably not, especially considering the age and engine
design of that Kohler.
>Has anyone used a DC generator to charge a pack or have any info on using
>one as a charger?
Well yeah, I wrote a long article about that either last week or the
week before. I'm not sure what there is to say in the way of
generalities. If you're going to kludge something together then it's
like a Bad Boy charger - what you do entirely depends on what you have
on hand or are willing to get.
In general, you'd crank up the engine speed and field excitation until
you get the voltage out that you want, within bounds, of course. If
it is a brushed generator then it'll require a cut-out relay to open
the charging circuit when the engine stops or else the generator will
(attempt to) motor the engine, quickly discharging the pack and
probably burning up the generator.
This setup would have all the problems and inefficiencies that
prompted the car industry to move from generators to alternators.
Go out on the net and find a wiring diagram for an antique car
generator system to get an idea of what you're going to have to
supply. At the minimum, a voltage regulator (a sensitive relay on a
car) and a cut-out relay. The cut-out relay must be rated for the
pack voltage.
With a little work you might be able to modify a car generator
regulator to handle the voltage regulation part but you'd still have
to come up with a cut-out relay. I just don't see how you're going to
bring this in at a cost less than one of those ChiCom generators.
Even if you could, you'd end up with a kludge that would suck gas. If
the regulator or cut-out system failed, it could cause very serious
damage to the pack, the generator, both and maybe even the car. Many
of the anticipated failure modes are fail-dangerous and that is not
what one wants for an unattended system.
All else being equal, a permanent magnet alternator backed by a full
wave rectifier is the most efficient generator, followed by an excited
field alternator backed by a rectifier.
The simplest method and the most reliable and lowest cost is to use
your existing charger with an AC generator. If you want to go direct
from the generator then go back and look at my article(s) on the
subject. I can think of many methods:
Modify a ChiCom generator with a bridge rectifier, a modified
regulator and perhaps a minor rewind. I've built a couple of these
for customers. What has to be done depends on the generator's design
- brushed or brushless field, the type of regulation, etc.
A Honda EU or other inverter generator with the inverter bypassed and
the high voltage DC brought out directly. Regulation would be by
governor setting and a trip-on-voltage shutdown relay to stop the
engine when full charge is achieved.
A small engine (that Honda GC series light duty 5 hp engine can be had
for under $200 and it's quiet and efficient.) coupled to a BLDC motor
operated as a generator. Same regulation and control requirements as
above.
That same small engine coupled to a car or truck alternator rewired to
produce the desired voltage and regulated by a modified automotive
regulator or even better, a custom-designed one that implements a
smart charger. I've designed versions of this for up to 72 volts
nominal, a product that I've trademarked the Cordless Battery Charger
(TM) - no big deal. Here are some photos of a very early 12/24 volt
prototype:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/files/rv/cordless_battery_charger/
(I know, I need some finished-product photos. Round tuits
back-ordered)
A small engine coupled to a 90 VDC PM DC servo motor. Regulation is
via governor and a cut-out relay would be required.
A small engine driving a modified AC induction motor backed by a
bridge rectifier. I have a friend who built a nice high voltage DC
generator by milling the rotor of a 3 phase AC motor to open the
squirrel cage circuit and then to embed rare earth magnets in the
rotor. Probably a little less efficient than some solutions but it
was cheap and it worked.
If you're not well-versed in electronics and electromechanical devices
then I recommend sticking with a cheap AC generator and a
line-operated charger. That's the simplest and most reliable method
without involving a lot of R&D effort.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to Don and All,
I see my buddy Jim has already responded, but I'll throw my two cents
worth in as well.
Don Cameron wrote:
I am **very** interested in this DC siamese motor config of John's and
Matt's.
Cool. It's not everyday where we see an AC guy who's also interested in
DC systems, especially high performance DC systems :-) Yes, the
extreme power delivery of twin DC motors in a series-parallel and fed
with 2000 motor amps is addicting. As Jim pointed out, currently, White
Zombie's Siamese 8 is the only one of its kind. I'm hoping there'll be
more to come, though.
Here is what I undestand so far (from what I have read here, the
archives and off the net):
- single Zilla 2K controller
- 300+ volts of high current batteries
- two 9" Warp motors, mechanically in series, with the brushes advanced
Or....two 8" ADC. Warp, GE, or whatever.
- no transmission, just a rear end (around 4.1:1)
Yes, no tranny. White Zombie runs with a 4:57 ratio and smallish (but
big for a Datsun 1200) 24" diameter rear tires. It still hits 106 mph in
the 1/4 mile due to its expertly crafted 8 inch Siamese motor spinning
at around 6800 rpm with so far, no apparent damage from high rpm
(fingers still crossed) I am planning on a rear ratio change to in fact,
a 4:11 to allow the car to hit 115-120 mph and stay within a safe rpm
range. I believe there's enough off-line torque, so that the taller gear
set will not detract from the 1.59 60 ft. time it presently does with
the 4:57 ratio.
- electrically the motors are initially series for lots of torque, then via
BF contactors (Bubbas) are switched to parallel for lots of power
When I did the 'Afterburner' bypass with the 240V pack of Orbitals, it
was indeed, done with twin Bubbas. The controller was completely out of
circuit at that point and the motors were connected in parallel directly
to the pack....quite the rush when the button was hit! Now, with the
348V Z2K setup, I uses a trio of Albright SW200 contactors....one for
the series connection, the other two for the parallel connection, Both
modes are with the controller always in circuit.
- in series each motor only see half pack voltage (obviously)
- in parallel the motors can see full pack voltage, however this is limited
by the controller to 170V to prevent arc-over.
- about a 6000RPM redline on the 9" motors
Yes, and as stated, 6800 rpm @ 106 mph. The car actually goes faster
than this, and with the pedal still down as it flashes through the
traps, the speed is still rising to probably 110 mph or close to 6900
rpm with the Siamese 8 before we get out of it.
So, a few questions:
- it appears there is going to be a lot of contactors if this is going to be
a street vehicle as well as a fast race car:
2 contactors for main power
I use one, plus a manual disconnect.
2 contactors for series-parallel switch
I assume you're talking 2 reversing type contactors. It can be done with
three SP/ST contactors as well.
1 contactor for reverse (or is it two?)
With twin motors, it's one reversing set per motor.
- how does one switch from series to parallel? If it was just the
contactors, that would be understandable, but it appears to be controlled
from the Zilla controller.
Actually, it's controlled by the Zilla's Hairball, not the Zilla itself.
It can be done automatically by virtue of full throttle and the current
ramping down to 1/2 the max selected current, or, with a manual control
via a push button.
- is the series/parallel switched under full load? Is it a real rough shift
(like drag race scarey - BANG?)
It doesn't have to be when manually controlled, but if under automatic
mode, yes....full throttle, yes, a big BANG with your head against the
seatback! For a more sane street driving experience, a manual control
over the series-parallel contactors, where you switch them off throttle,
results in very smooth operation that is seamless in effect with no
banging, no tire squealing at switch-over.
See Ya......John Wayland
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--- Begin Message ---
So if we catch the overflow and re-use it, and make sure the cells are fully
charged before watering is there anything else that could be done.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 1:30 AM
Subject: Re: STM5-100
On 29 Mar 2006 at 20:25, Philippe Borges wrote:
I'm only guessing here, but what about watering more often?
I agree.
One of my concerns with these monoblocks is what happens if the watering
system malfunctions. It's a very simple system, and it really shouldn't.
However, I've heard of problems with the similar older system used with
removeable cell caps. It's apparently rare, but in a few cases, at least
one
cell wasn't fully watered. When the MR/MRE modules are clamped down,
it's difficult to verify visually that the electrolyte level is where it
should be.
You can imagine what might result.
More frequent watering than called for by the specs - say, 2 or 3 times as
often - should at least give the user a fighting chance at watering before
the
electrolyte level falls below the plates and destroys the module. It's a
bit of
an inconvenience, though.
BTW, it's a good idea to catch the overflow from the automatic watering
system in a glass jar, and pour it into your filling tank, as I'm told
that it may
contain a bit of KOH.
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--- Begin Message ---
Well he did include 5 lines from my original posting in his reply as well
as your ( I thought) tongue in cheek comment about watering.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: STM5-100
Oh dear, you're taking personal credit for his concession when he said *I*
was
the winner (in the guess of a care regime that keeps NiCds alive longer).
Oh dear I'm sorry that you feel that this is some sort of fight with
winners
and losers.
I only bring my thoughts, feelings and personal experience to the list to
try and help others make their decisions and hope that when I have a
question then others share their experiences and techniques with me and
the
rest of our "brotherhood" of EV enthusiasts.
John
> you win :^)
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
>
>> >>> Philippe says the care regime is probably the cause of early
>> >>> failure
> in the
>> Nicads. - So come on Philippe "spill the beans" what should we be
>> doing
> that the
>> manufacturer of the EV is not doing in the service routine and how can
>> us
>> enthusiastic owners do this properly without wasting our hard earned
> dollars.
>> <<<
>>
>> I'm only guessing here, but what about watering more often?
>>
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--- Begin Message ---
I think this is a eureka , idea , . So the reversing battery would need to
put out enough current to run the field and match the motor amps that the
controller is putting out . I wonder if there would be a problem with the
controller's free wheeling diodes when there was no current flowing from the
controller and the NiMh cell hooked up .
Steve clunn .
The 'trick' in Johns' case, is to get reverse, without adding contactors
in the main current path and unbalancing the pair of motors. The only way
I can see is to add a NiMh cell or paralell block of cells to reverse
power one field whilst powering the armature from the controller. But
there must be another way, all it takes is that "eureka" moment...
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric Poulsen wrote:
> If you have any good recommendations for a absolute value circuit
> suitable for use with a shunt, I'd be happy to hear it -- then you could
> measure in both directions.
Frequency does not have a +/- sign, so a V-to-F converter is
inappropriate when you need to read +/- amps. I suppose you could use an
analog switch IC to reverse the polarity of the shunt wires, so the
V-to-F worked in both directions. You'd need to control the switch with
a comparator tha looked at the polarity of the shunt voltage, and keep
track of the polarity to control the dirction of an up/down counter.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ProEV wrote:
>> We did this on Rick Woodbury's Tango #3, and it was a "big deal".
>> 25 Optimas, each with a 6.5" x 3" x 1" charger/monitor. These
>> contained a Vicor Batmod 12v 15amp charger, and a little
>> microcomputer... They wound up costing about $300 per battery,
> Wow! $300 is a little costly. I think the Vicor is about $110, that
> means $190 for the rest?
The Vicor Batmod is about $160 each. The microcomputer was another $25
each. The custom machined heatsink, PCB layout, PC board tooling, and
other parts costs is where the money went. You have to remember this was
a one-off system, intended mainly for research and development.
> Did you build in 'weakest battery' boost while driving with this system?
Yes. It could charge any battery while driving, or multiple batteries
for that matter.
> IMHO The best thing about your original battery balancer design is
> that it makes the battery pack less prone to complete failure while
> driving. If a single battery starts going bad, the driver can keep
> using the vehicle until he gets time to have the battery replaced.
I agree. This turned out to be a great benefit. But my original balancer
could only charge one battery at a time. The more likely situation is to
have an old pack where the amphour capacities of the batteries are
spread out over a +/-20% range. Then you have several batteries at once
that are limiting your range. Being able to charge several at once thus
further improves the system reliability.
> Any guess how much it would bring down the price doing just battery
> voltage, maybe temperature, on/off output to the Vicor and EVIL bus
> to a Dash unit?
I did several design iterations, thinking ahead toward what might be
used for production vehicles. Obviously the purchased microcontroller
board could be replaced with a custom design for a few dollars. The $160
Vicor could be replaced with a purpose-built DC/DC in the $20-$50 range.
The tooling for the custom heatsink and PC boards would become
insignificant when spread over many cars instead of just one.
My other thought was that these modules could evolve to be just another
generic 12v 15amp battery charger, that accepts AC/DC inputs, but that
just happens to be smarter and more versatile. These could be sold in
large volumes, not just for EVs but for anyone who wants a small charger
that they can talk to and program with their PC.
Once you get reasonable volumes, you'd have a retail price of under $50
each.
Alas, it hasn't happened yet. The Tango hasn't reached "production" yet,
so there's no money to continue development.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Short answer - yes.
Long answer - it depends how hilly your area is, how well
you maintain your batteries, how cold it gets in your part
of the world, if you have the truck sitting outside or
inside if it does get cold and how long you want the
batteries to live.
24 x 6V and assuming you use T145 (T105 will also work,
but has lower capacity so it will discharge deeper and
live shorter)
Specs of T105 and T145 are 225 versus 260 Ah.
In a 1-hour discharge a battery will deliver about 0.6 of
its rated Ah, so you should count with getting about 155Ah
out of this battery.
At 144V this means that you have about 22kWh of usable
energy in your battery, if you want to risk driving it
to death. Commonly an EV should not be driven beyond 80%
of this, so count on 18 kWh max.
Since the S10 truck uses about 350 Wh per mile when
driven carefully and not encountering much elevation, you
can expect that you have a maximum of 50 miles range, but
when it gets very cold or you have high hills, this range
may be severy reduced (down to half in extreme cases).
Still I have the idea that this is a very doable range and
setup
I have an S10 with 25kWh of usable energy in the batteries
and I can make my 23 miles commute twice roundtrip without
killing the batteries.
(I have only 110 Ah batteries, 80 Ah at 1 hour discharge,
but the voltage is 312V so that figures to about 25 kWh)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Greg Swager
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Newbie- Info on Compact Pick-up
I live in rural area and the roads are flat. The majority of maximum
speed is 55 mph with 4 curves (25-45 mph). It'll be about 25-30 miles
roundtrip. I'm planning to use S-10 or Ranger because I need a pick-up,
not car, for agricultural errands.
My plan is to buy a conversion kit from Electro-Automotive
(http://www.electroauto.com/), with 9" motor and (24) 6V batteries (most
likely Trojan). Clutch and manual transmission will be used. I am
concerning if the pick-up will have enough power for 25-30 miles at
majority of highway speed. Is that sufficient?
Regards,
-gs
--
Greg Swager
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, I responded to someone off-list and he asked me to copy
the list with my expectations and manufacturer quotes for
my UB121100 batteries from UPG (Universal Power Group):
> The engineer said he expect it would be 300 - 500 full cycles,
> but did not have hard data to back it up - most of his customers
> use this battery for rugged environment standby applications,
> so they are more focused on lifetime years.
>
> Since my truck uses approximately 1 Ah per mile and the capacity
> at 1-hour discharge is 80 Ah, I expect between 24,000 and 40,000
> miles if I treat the batteries well, avoid too hard or deep
> discharges and avoid over-charging.
> I calculate with replacing my pack around the 24,000 mark, which
> would mean that my pack lasts 3 years as I expect to do no more
> than 8,000 miles per year.
> Last 10 weeks I have done 1500 miles, so that supports it.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 4:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: my (theoretical) setup
Pascal wrote:
> Low cost per mile, isn't that everybody's goal :) The less money we
> spend on charging, the more we feel sorry for those people with a
> 'normal' ice-engine.
In the USA, the cost of electricity is small compared to the cost of
batteries. For example, I pay $0.065 per KWH. My EV goes 3 miles per
KWH. So my "fuel cost" is $0.022 per mile.
The cost per mile of batteries is much higher. My twelve flooded 6v golf
cart batteries cost me $500. They lasted about 15,000 miles. So they
cost me $500/20000 = $0.03 per mile.
The AGM batteries I am currently using cost $1500. From their present
condition, I don't think they are good for more than 10,000 miles. Thus
they cost $1500/10000 = $0.15 per mile.
> would it be logical to take 12v batteries like the Trojan 30XHS
> instead of the 6v? I remember reading on this list that it is better
> to take 6v batteries instead of 12v, because in a 6v batteries the
> plates inside the cells are wider apart then they are in a 12v or
> 24v batteries?
In general, 6v batteries are explicitly built for electric vehicles
(usually golf carts). 12v batteries are built for other, less demanding
applications (like UPS power supplies, marine trolling motors, etc.)
Thus, the 12v batteries don't hold up as well.
There are (rare) exceptions; 12v batteries that are built for some
electric vehicle like a floor scrubber. These can provide life
equivalent to 6v batteries. However, they generally cost more, since
they aren't building as many per year.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Pascal,
Clutch and manual gears are good to keep decent acceleration
speed (keep up with traffic at traffic light and in the city)
as well as allowing a high maximum speed.
When I was driving in The Netherlands, long stretches were
close to 140 km/h (87 MPH) otherwise you were only overtaken.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Pascal
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: my (theoretical) setup
Thx for the link Bruce,
I'll look at the site later today.
Thx for the info Lee,
Just out of curiosity, what would you suggest which
battery's I should take instead of the T-145?
Which is suitable for the Curtis controller first, and
perhaps on a later date with a Zilla?
Like I stated earlier, I haven't been around this list
for a while, so I just picked up where I left this
list a few months ago.
Hillclimbing btw. is not an issue here in the
netherlands, particulary the part where I live,
highest climb is almost 2 meters (and that is to drive
over a bridge :-) )
Pascal
Pascal wrote:
> 12 or 14 Trojan T-145 6v 260 AH battery's
> A Curtis controller (perhaps even a Zilla if my bank
> account permits it :)
> DC/DC converter (for radio, cd and car lights etc.)
> a 9.1" Advanced DC engine 24-120v design (up to
>
> This lot will be placed somewhere on a beetle
chassis
> minus the ICE and perhaps I'll drop the clutch too.
>
> So let me hear what you think of it, even if it is
> totally crap, I need the info before I continue to
buy
> the stuff.
12-14 6v batteries is a 72-84v pack, good for about
500a max. That's
really too low to bother with a 9" motor or Zilla
controller. I would
suggest using a 6.7" motor instead; a used 48v
Prestolite MTC-4001 for
example. You won't overheat this motor before the pack
goes dead, so a
larger motor is mostly superfluous.
Likewise for the controller. A Curtis 1221C would be
adequate, and a
1231C should be plenty. The Zilla is a much nicer
controller, but only
justifiable if you expect to significantly upgrade
your systems
someday.
I'd keep the clutch. With a lower-power system like
this, shifting
provides better accelleration and hillclimbing.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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