EV Digest 5297
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Public charging -- DC generator
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Yuasa Little Red Book of Batteries
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Yale Hyster Forklift EV-1 OSCILLATOR CARD SCR GE NEW!!! Item number:
76036688
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: Peak Detector, averaging several A/D readings
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: my (theoretical) setup
by Pascal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Speaking of Ignoring Ultra Caps
by "Jonathan Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: my (theoretical) setup, comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) WAS: Speaking of Ignoring Ultra Caps,...... Don't wanna, if they WORK.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Newbie- Info on Compact Pick-up
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Public charging -- DC generator
by "England Nathan-r25543" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) OT: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) re: internal resistance
by Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Bizarre Amphour Meter Idea
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: STM5-100
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: DC Motors for Racing (and Matt's Nissan 200SX)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: my (theoretical) setup
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) RE: rust removal
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Oozing Joints
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Jimmy,
If you have an E10 then you have the same base vehicle as I have,
US Electricar.
You have another battery setup, I believe, but is it not possible
to increase your battery capacity?
Since these trucks use about 300Wh per mile average driving, it is
not too problematic to either add a battery pack in the bed that
gives you your extra 10 miles or upgrade the original pack when
it is due.
I have never tested my pack to the limits, I have only been
driving with this EV for 10 weeks.
Longest trip has been 51 miles and the batteries were still
resting above 12.1 V (312V pack at 315V after an hour rest)
and this included almost 20 miles Freeway speed (101) and the rest
was a lot of stop-and-go city driving.
So I would assume that you can make the 58 miles roundtrip work,
one way or the other.
You can even check around in the neighborhood of your workplace
to see if there is a place where you can agree to park and
charge for a nominal fee or for free, depending on the enthusiasm
that you encounter.
If you feel that at work you cannot force it, then don't.
But there are more outlets than in the company parking lot...
I am not charging at work currently, though one of the
managers noticed that I drive an EV and already said that
he is aware of the absence of outlets in the parking lot,
but "he would toss me an extension cord" himself, if it were
up to him. So now I need to get a decent charger installed
in the truck and be done with the offboard charger at home.
Probably we will need to throw an extension cord off of the
roof of the building (and install a timer from 10 AM to 5 PM)
so there is nobody that will come to steal power at night,
as there will be no power at night.
If this does not work, I may go to the gas station around the
corner and talk to the manager to park and plug in behind his
station.
"Some limits only exist in the boundaries of your imagination"
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of DM3
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 6:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Public charging -- DC generator
> ---- DM3 wrote:
> > I have worked at my job for 23 years and have not been able to charge
> > there for the 13 I have had EVs. I have heard every excuse imagined
> > including "homeless people will use the plug to cook with".
>> My round trip to work is 58 miles (about 10 too many) so I am
>>contemplating using an old dc generator to charge both ways. Has anyone
>>used a dc generator to charge a pack?
> > http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Kohler/KohlerMenu1.htm
> > Model 1.5M5
> > Jimmy
> From: Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Why not offer to have an outlet installed by a licensed electrician with
> a meter/base unit that shows the kilowatts you use. That way you can
> pay the boss for what he thinks he is losing.
>
I work for a major corporation with an extensive ride share program. They
have monthly giveaways including cash.
When 3 employees had GM EV1s they refused to install Free chargers.
The official story was that the legal department stops support due to
liability of someone getting hurt from the charging equipment. >
> RE: charging
> Unless you wish to tow a rather substantial generator on a trailer
> behind your vehicle that will run a typical pack charger and pay for the
> gasoline to run it, it is probably not worth the cost or trouble.
>
I only need a 20% charge to get back home, if I charged on the way to and
from and start the generator an hour before I leave it may be enough of a
charge to get home. I have a solectria E10 and I can throw it in the back
pretty easy.
I thought that a dc generator would be more efficient than an ac generator
with a battery charger.
Has anyone used a DC generator to charge a pack or have any info on using
one as a charger?
Thanks,
Jimmy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
here's another basic battery tech paper by East Penn
http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/products/pdfs/0139.pdf
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 6:23 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Zappylist
Subject: Yuasa Little Red Book of Batteries
Some of you might find this helpful. Basic battery manual.
http://www.yuasa-battery.co.uk/ind_download.html
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On E-bay, for those like me who use the EV-1 controller. This is a 24 - 84 V
card, so if you have a 36 V controller, you can convert it to 84 V with this,
as I have done several times successfully. The price is much better than
what I paid for mine.
Yale Hyster Forklift EV-1 OSCILLATOR CARD SCR GE NEW!!!
Item number: 7603668839
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Simply "averaging" doesn't make a very good "filter".
It isn't that hard to do a lot better. At battery
charger speeds, it is quite easy to make a FIR DSP
filter (Finite Impulse Response). In a nutshell, you
keep an aray of your previous (n) evenly spaced (in
time) samples, and instead of the output of your
"average" filter being (1/n)*(oldest data point) +
(1/n)*(second oldest data point)+...+(1/n)(second
newest data point)+(1/n)*(newest data point) (most
people would just add up all the data points and then
multiply by 1/n by the way), you replace all the (1/n)
coeffecients with the coeffecients of your FIR filter
(comming up with these coeffecients is the trick).
DSP chips have a built in, high speed MAC command
(Multiply and Accumulate in one step) to make the
above calculations easier.
While I am not a DSP expert, if someone had gotten far
enough to get a project working with an "average"
filter, I can help them add some code to convert it to
a FIR filter.
- Steven Ciciora
<snip>
> So, your 12-bit A/D readings are dithering around
> +/-4 counts, and
> you're trying to read a 1-count change? The only way
> you can do this is
> to average many readings together. In practical
> terms, you average
> several minutes worth of data before you can be sure
> that the slope of
> the noisy signal really has flattened out, and that
> it's not just noise
> caused by your AC power line voltage dropping, or
> drift from the charger
> warming up.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Cor,
thx for the info and yes on long stretches it's better
to drive 140 km/h but I live in Zeeuws-Vlaanderen
where the speedlimit on the major roads is 80 km/h
(49MPH)except for the one going to the
westerscheldetunnel there the speedlimit is 100 km/h
(62MPH).
Since I only want to keep up with the traffic at the
few trafficlights I encounter when driving to work or
home, I see no need for having a EV that can drive
very fast.
Pascal
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Pascal,
>
> Clutch and manual gears are good to keep decent
> acceleration
> speed (keep up with traffic at traffic light and in
> the city)
> as well as allowing a high maximum speed.
>
> When I was driving in The Netherlands, long
> stretches were
> close to 140 km/h (87 MPH) otherwise you were only
> overtaken.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private:
> http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD#
> 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Pascal
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:06 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: my (theoretical) setup
>
>
> Thx for the link Bruce,
>
> I'll look at the site later today.
>
>
> Thx for the info Lee,
>
> Just out of curiosity, what would you suggest which
> battery's I should take instead of the T-145?
>
> Which is suitable for the Curtis controller first,
> and
> perhaps on a later date with a Zilla?
>
> Like I stated earlier, I haven't been around this
> list
> for a while, so I just picked up where I left this
> list a few months ago.
>
> Hillclimbing btw. is not an issue here in the
> netherlands, particulary the part where I live,
> highest climb is almost 2 meters (and that is to
> drive
> over a bridge :-) )
>
> Pascal
>
>
> Pascal wrote:
> > 12 or 14 Trojan T-145 6v 260 AH battery's
> > A Curtis controller (perhaps even a Zilla if my
> bank
> > account permits it :)
> > DC/DC converter (for radio, cd and car lights
> etc.)
> > a 9.1" Advanced DC engine 24-120v design (up to
> >
> > This lot will be placed somewhere on a beetle
> chassis
> > minus the ICE and perhaps I'll drop the clutch
> too.
> >
> > So let me hear what you think of it, even if it is
> > totally crap, I need the info before I continue to
> buy
> > the stuff.
>
> 12-14 6v batteries is a 72-84v pack, good for about
> 500a max. That's
> really too low to bother with a 9" motor or Zilla
> controller. I would
> suggest using a 6.7" motor instead; a used 48v
> Prestolite MTC-4001 for
> example. You won't overheat this motor before the
> pack
> goes dead, so a
> larger motor is mostly superfluous.
>
> Likewise for the controller. A Curtis 1221C would be
> adequate, and a
> 1231C should be plenty. The Zilla is a much nicer
> controller, but only
> justifiable if you expect to significantly upgrade
> your systems
> someday.
>
> I'd keep the clutch. With a lower-power system like
> this, shifting
> provides better accelleration and hillclimbing.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> *"This is a very sophisticated electric car, with 250 to 300 miles of
> > range," Richard Weir, CEO, president and co-founder of EEStor said. "It'll
> > take a full electrical charge in about the time it takes to gas up a regular
> > car. Just plug it up for a few minutes and you're off." Many auto
> > manufacturers experimented with electric cars in the 1980s and 1990s but
> > essentially abandoned the technology for hybrid or other alternative fuel
> > systems due to their high cost of manufacture and maintenance. Weir believes
> > EEStor has overcome those hurdles with their product. "This is just a
> > preview of what's to come. We have another major announcement for May. But
> > seeing is believing!" he said.*
>
>
According to Tyler
Hamilton<http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/3/29/1849708.html>of
the Toronto Star, Weir was referring to "two prototypes of a Feel
Good Car <http://www.feelgoodcars.com/> that runs off one of its super
dooper ultracapacitor-based energy storage systems -- which, it bears
repeating <http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/3/6/1799684.html>,
claim
to have 10 times the energy density of lead acid batteries and none of the
negative side effects, such as slow charge time, limited cycling and
environmental nastiness."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Pascal;
If it's anything like the USA ,speed limit signs are treated mearly as
suggestions, I would bet that they go 110-120 KM through the Tunnel and over
100 on the 80 stretch? A EV with a gearbox is nice as you can shift gears to
cruise at the motor's "Sweet spot" where the amps are lower for a given
speed. Most of us daily drivers arent smoking tires and doing flat out. I
used to commute on the Connecticut Turnpike at about 100-110 KmH.COULD do
120 or better flat out, but didn't usually, unless I was terrably
late<g>!This was in my '82 Rabbit, old Golf, 120 volt ,Raptur controller and
9 inch ADC motor. Curb weight 3100 lbs.Because I had a long, fast commute, I
really piled in the lead, as I had a 53 mile commute, but I could plug it in
at work, the RR, electric, nobody made as issue as there was a trainyard
full of electric trains there. What's a few amps among friends? Then off to
drive my OTHER electric:Amtrak's trains.Was fun, they EVen PAID me to do
it!<g>
Curious, WHERE is Zeeuws-Vlaanderen? Switzerland, Holland? Nice to see
you guyz on the Continent coming aboard, here! With what you pay for gas
over there, not surprised, and there would be MANY folks from Europe here.
But then I see movies of the Auto Bahn and rediculous speeds driven every
day, well over 100 MPH, not KPH. Guess if you want to see how fast your
shiny new Porsche will go, you try it out! Scary, as I see trucks on there
too and you KNOW they can't do 100MPH plus, but I imagine they TRY?
My two KmH worth
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pascal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 8:04 AM
Subject: RE: my (theoretical) setup
> Hi Cor,
>
> thx for the info and yes on long stretches it's better
> to drive 140 km/h but I live in Zeeuws-Vlaanderen
> where the speedlimit on the major roads is 80 km/h
> (49MPH)except for the one going to the
> westerscheldetunnel there the speedlimit is 100 km/h
> (62MPH).
>
> Since I only want to keep up with the traffic at the
> few trafficlights I encounter when driving to work or
> home, I see no need for having a EV that can drive
> very fast.
>
> Pascal
>
> --- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Pascal,
> >
> > Clutch and manual gears are good to keep decent
> > acceleration
> > speed (keep up with traffic at traffic light and in
> > the city)
> > as well as allowing a high maximum speed.
> >
> > When I was driving in The Netherlands, long
> > stretches were
> > close to 140 km/h (87 MPH) otherwise you were only
> > overtaken.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private:
> > http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD#
> > 25925
> > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Pascal
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:06 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: my (theoretical) setup
> >
> >
> > Thx for the link Bruce,
> >
> > I'll look at the site later today.
> >
> >
> > Thx for the info Lee,
> >
> > Just out of curiosity, what would you suggest which
> > battery's I should take instead of the T-145?
> >
> > Which is suitable for the Curtis controller first,
> > and
> > perhaps on a later date with a Zilla?
> >
> > Like I stated earlier, I haven't been around this
> > list
> > for a while, so I just picked up where I left this
> > list a few months ago.
> >
> > Hillclimbing btw. is not an issue here in the
> > netherlands, particulary the part where I live,
> > highest climb is almost 2 meters (and that is to
> > drive
> > over a bridge :-) )
> >
> > Pascal
> >
> >
> > Pascal wrote:
> > > 12 or 14 Trojan T-145 6v 260 AH battery's
> > > A Curtis controller (perhaps even a Zilla if my
> > bank
> > > account permits it :)
> > > DC/DC converter (for radio, cd and car lights
> > etc.)
> > > a 9.1" Advanced DC engine 24-120v design (up to
> > >
> > > This lot will be placed somewhere on a beetle
> > chassis
> > > minus the ICE and perhaps I'll drop the clutch
> > too.
> > >
> > > So let me hear what you think of it, even if it is
> > > totally crap, I need the info before I continue to
> > buy
> > > the stuff.
> >
> > 12-14 6v batteries is a 72-84v pack, good for about
> > 500a max. That's
> > really too low to bother with a 9" motor or Zilla
> > controller. I would
> > suggest using a 6.7" motor instead; a used 48v
> > Prestolite MTC-4001 for
> > example. You won't overheat this motor before the
> > pack
> > goes dead, so a
> > larger motor is mostly superfluous.
> >
> > Likewise for the controller. A Curtis 1221C would be
> > adequate, and a
> > 1231C should be plenty. The Zilla is a much nicer
> > controller, but only
> > justifiable if you expect to significantly upgrade
> > your systems
> > someday.
> >
> > I'd keep the clutch. With a lower-power system like
> > this, shifting
> > provides better accelleration and hillclimbing.
> > --
> > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > Forget the perfect offering
> > There is a crack in everything
> > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John;
Do you have a "rough" idea on the additional cost to do a set up like this.
Additional motor, contactors, wiring.
Save on the transmission adapter, clutch, etc.
Cost advantage to go with (2) coupled motors versus Siamese.
Would value your comments;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
-----Original Message-----
From: John Wayland [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 1:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
Hello to Don and All,
I see my buddy Jim has already responded, but I'll throw my two cents worth
in as well.
Don Cameron wrote:
>I am **very** interested in this DC siamese motor config of John's and
>Matt's.
>
Cool. It's not everyday where we see an AC guy who's also interested in
DC systems, especially high performance DC systems :-) Yes, the
extreme power delivery of twin DC motors in a series-parallel and fed
with 2000 motor amps is addicting. As Jim pointed out, currently, White
Zombie's Siamese 8 is the only one of its kind. I'm hoping there'll be
more to come, though.
>Here is what I undestand so far (from what I have read here, the
>archives and off the net):
>
>- single Zilla 2K controller
>- 300+ volts of high current batteries
>- two 9" Warp motors, mechanically in series, with the brushes advanced
>
>
Or....two 8" ADC. Warp, GE, or whatever.
>- no transmission, just a rear end (around 4.1:1)
>
>
Yes, no tranny. White Zombie runs with a 4:57 ratio and smallish (but
big for a Datsun 1200) 24" diameter rear tires. It still hits 106 mph in
the 1/4 mile due to its expertly crafted 8 inch Siamese motor spinning
at around 6800 rpm with so far, no apparent damage from high rpm
(fingers still crossed) I am planning on a rear ratio change to in fact,
a 4:11 to allow the car to hit 115-120 mph and stay within a safe rpm
range. I believe there's enough off-line torque, so that the taller gear
set will not detract from the 1.59 60 ft. time it presently does with
the 4:57 ratio.
>- electrically the motors are initially series for lots of torque, then via
>BF contactors (Bubbas) are switched to parallel for lots of power
>
>
When I did the 'Afterburner' bypass with the 240V pack of Orbitals, it
was indeed, done with twin Bubbas. The controller was completely out of
circuit at that point and the motors were connected in parallel directly
to the pack....quite the rush when the button was hit! Now, with the
348V Z2K setup, I uses a trio of Albright SW200 contactors....one for
the series connection, the other two for the parallel connection, Both
modes are with the controller always in circuit.
>- in series each motor only see half pack voltage (obviously)
>- in parallel the motors can see full pack voltage, however this is limited
>by the controller to 170V to prevent arc-over.
>- about a 6000RPM redline on the 9" motors
>
>
Yes, and as stated, 6800 rpm @ 106 mph. The car actually goes faster
than this, and with the pedal still down as it flashes through the
traps, the speed is still rising to probably 110 mph or close to 6900
rpm with the Siamese 8 before we get out of it.
>
>
>So, a few questions:
>
>- it appears there is going to be a lot of contactors if this is going to
be
>a street vehicle as well as a fast race car:
> 2 contactors for main power
>
>
I use one, plus a manual disconnect.
> 2 contactors for series-parallel switch
>
>
I assume you're talking 2 reversing type contactors. It can be done with
three SP/ST contactors as well.
> 1 contactor for reverse (or is it two?)
>
>
With twin motors, it's one reversing set per motor.
>- how does one switch from series to parallel? If it was just the
>contactors, that would be understandable, but it appears to be controlled
>from the Zilla controller.
>
>
>
Actually, it's controlled by the Zilla's Hairball, not the Zilla itself.
It can be done automatically by virtue of full throttle and the current
ramping down to 1/2 the max selected current, or, with a manual control
via a push button.
>- is the series/parallel switched under full load? Is it a real rough
shift
>(like drag race scarey - BANG?)
>
>
It doesn't have to be when manually controlled, but if under automatic
mode, yes....full throttle, yes, a big BANG with your head against the
seatback! For a more sane street driving experience, a manual control
over the series-parallel contactors, where you switch them off throttle,
results in very smooth operation that is seamless in effect with no
banging, no tire squealing at switch-over.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 7:59 AM
Subject: Speaking of Ignoring Ultra Caps
> >
> > *"This is a very sophisticated electric car, with 250 to 300 miles of
> > > range," Richard Weir, CEO, president and co-founder of EEStor said.
"It'll
> > > take a full electrical charge in about the time it takes to gas up a
regular
> > > car. Just plug it up for a few minutes and you're off." Many auto
> > > manufacturers experimented with electric cars in the 1980s and 1990s
but
> > > essentially abandoned the technology for hybrid or other alternative
fuel
> > > systems due to their high cost of manufacture and maintenance. Weir
believes
> > > EEStor has overcome those hurdles with their product. "This is just a
> > > preview of what's to come. We have another major announcement for May.
But
> > > seeing is believing!" he said.*
> >
> > Hi EVerybody;
Hmmm, WHERE have I heard this before? Not to "Diss" anybody, but I have
seen press releases like this for , well, about 40 years, I'm an old
fart<g>!So I take it with a "Show Me" like they say on the tags in Missouri,
Kansas? One of those places? State. Boy I hope these guyz are on to
something!? Hell, I would be happy with a half hour recharge time, but EVen
juicing it for a few minutes, like a cup of coffee, Starbux? Got yur ears
on? You could charge your customers TWICE!, Send them away fed up and nice
and juicy!
So..Fans' Stay tuned, maybe these guyz would come out to a NEDRA EVent,
show their wares? May, June,YEAH! Just in time for the Joliet thing or Power
of DC? Gees! It would be nice to see Feel Good Cars back, been pretty quiet
since they bought Jack Gretta's beautifully restored Henny Kilowatt, a few
years ago. Sadly ,Jack didn't live long enough to see Feel Good get it's act
together. Jack's equilly clean, restored MG Midget is on E Bay, now. For you
British car fans.
I, frankly, don't care HOW they turn the wheels, long as it's all
electric, Batteries, crapaciters? WhatEVer. I wish these guyz all the luck
in the World!!They are up against the toughest political and industrial
complex the world has EVer had the misfortune to behold. EVen if the car did
a Tilley, could run forever WITHOUT charging, it would be fought to a
standstill, almost, at least in the USA. China? They may hafta go there to
make the cars?
My two farads worth,
Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey Greg:
I have almost exactly the same setup. Rural area and flat, and we too need
a pickup for ag use. See http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/693.html
Our S-10 longbed has 24 6 V floodies and it should be no problem to get 30
Miles at 50 mph (our truck uses approx. 110-150 A at 50 mph but it might
be still a little bit on the 'high' side).
You can contact me off list and I am happy to get into more detail.
Michaela
> I live in rural area and the roads are flat. The majority of maximum
> speed is 55 mph with 4 curves (25-45 mph). It'll be about 25-30 miles
> roundtrip. I'm planning to use S-10 or Ranger because I need a pick-up,
> not car, for agricultural errands.
>
> My plan is to buy a conversion kit from Electro-Automotive
> (http://www.electroauto.com/), with 9" motor and (24) 6V batteries (most
> likely Trojan). Clutch and manual transmission will be used. I am
> concerning if the pick-up will have enough power for 25-30 miles at
> majority of highway speed. Is that sufficient?
>
> Regards,
> -gs
>
> --
> Greg Swager
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I thought companies could get "Green Credits" for encouraging their
employees to drive an electric vehicle by allowing them to charge at
their place of business.
Maybe I am miss-informed or these credits are no longer available. My
company encourages alternative modes of transportation to help the
environment so I thought there was an incentive program for businesses.
Nate
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of DM3
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Public charging -- DC generator
I have worked at my job for 23 years and have not been able to charge
there for the 13 I have had EVs. I have heard every excuse imagined
including "homeless people will use the plug to cook with". I don't
push it 'cause I like my job. As a result, I plan trips that do not
require charging to get back home. My round trip to work is 58 miles
(about 10 too many) so I am contemplating using an old dc generator to
charge both ways, the problem is that it is 115 volts. Has anyone used
a dc generator to charge a pack?
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Kohler/KohlerMenu1.htm
Model 1.5M5
Thanks,
Jimmy
From: "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Ok, it's true. I plugged in without asking.
He said he'd "set
something up for me" but that I couldn't keep using those outlets and
didn't
explain why. I wonder if he thinks the charger draws an unsafe amount of
amperage.
What about approaching state legislature about charging spots like
California has? Is this a fool's errand? Is there a good way to write a
letter without sounding like a fringe lunatic?
Thanks,
Rich
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Roger Stockton wrote:
I think John's concern is with adding *any* additional contacts and
wires into the motor loop due to their associated losses.
Correct.
As soon as the motors start spinning, the back EMF is going to make
their effective resistance great enough to make a few milliohms
difference in wiring resistance unimportant.
Yes, but it's the all-important launch at the strip, where there's very
little back emf at first, that's the most important area where any high
current losses count, big time. I agree, once the car is moving along
and the motors are spooled up, there would be very little difference
caused by F-R contactors.
Look at it this way; Matt's car is running the same controller as
John's, and a pair of 9" motors, and he is getting *very* respectable
performance (perhaps even better than John's when you factor in vehicle
weight) even though he does have a reversing contactor in the motor
loop.
Yes, but if he were to rewire the motor(s) circuit more directly and
leave all the cables and contacts for forward-reversing out of the loop,
he'd probably pick up .2 - .4 seconds! That's not important for everyday
driving for sure, but for 1/4 mile drag racing and chasing after a
record, it's HUGE.
My concern would be that a reversing contactor relies on current flowing
though the NC and NO contacts depending on the direction selected, and
usually NC contacts are rated for less current than the NO set.
Again, correct. Otmar's 914 has experienced this problem already. Here's
a car that pulls BIG currents all the time, as it's his rolling Zilla
test bed. The NC contacts that rely on spring pressure burn more quickly
than do the NO contacts that are closed under more pressure from the
magnetics of the coil.
I would
think that wiring the reversing contactor so that it must be energised
for forward "gear" so that the NO contacts carry the heavy race current
would be a good thing to do.
I thought about that as well, but it only adds even more 12V current to
be draining all the time, and the default mode is having the car in
reverse if the 12V power is interrupted to the forward-reversing set.
For vehicles trying to set world records or for those that already own
the record and are chipping away at precious fractions of seconds, every
little thing counts. I've found that eliminating the high current losses
in the motor loop circuit has improved the car's 60 ft. and 1/8 mile
times. Having just one high extra high current contactor for the front
motor (that would open the field circuit so that a smaller F-R set could
reverse it) with the old dual motor setup, caused an unbalanced wear
condition of the brushes and coms between the two motors. Where I got
rid of that contactor, the problem went away, and the 1/8 mile times
improved.
For vehicles that are mainly for street with setting world records a
secondary concern, the reversing contactor sets work fine. If I were to
suddenly retire White Zombie from track racing and turn it into a
'street only' vehicle, I would have no problem installing F-R contactor
sets. For now, where we are a mere .151 seconds away from hitting the
11's, I'll stick to having just fat 4/0 cables and thick copper bus bars
inter-connecting the twin motor sections of the Siamese 8.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
'The Emperor Is Naked' says Axel Friedrich, head of department for traffic
and noise at the German Federal Environmental Agency. 'There will be no
significant amount of hydrogen powered cars in the foreseeable future and
there will not be enough hydrogen to power those cars'.
He is backed by an upublished study that concludes that a hydrogen future
is hightly questionable. This study, paid for by German Federal
Environmental Agency, listed several problems with hydrogen, like low
efficieny, high prices and unsolved storage problems.
The German Ministry of Economics and Technology has already stopped most
of its hydrogen related support, the German 'Technology Review' magazine
writes.
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/71466
In German
mm.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Lee - now to take it a step further; my understanding is that internal
resistance translates to voltage sag. Does the resistance in your connections
also translate to voltage sag, or is this somehow exempt?
I would think that if it did, we would see some design bias toward fewer,
larger batteries, but I haven't noticed that except in the context of the
expense and difficulty of making all of the connections.
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Carl Clifford wrote:
> > I am investigating a pack for a 48v motorcycle conversion and looking
> > at Hawker 0770-2007s... I notice much higher internal resistance for
> > smaller batteries. 8.5 mohm vs 3.5 at the other end of the spectrum...
> > If I parallel 4 small ones, would the internal resistance of the set
> > approach a battery of a similar weight?
>
> It should, if your external connections have a low enough resistance. If
> both are built the same way, a battery of twice the weight should have
> half the internal resistance, and parallelling two smaller ones would
> result in the same overall resistance.
>
> But resistances under 0.001 ohms are very difficult to achieve. Your
> connections can easily have more resistance than the batteries
> themselves.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
You guys aren't gonna make me disassemble my Milburn's 1921 Sangamo
meter are you...?
Neon John wrote:
I'd LOVE to see the inside of it.
I took apart a 1950's vintage Sangamo DC amphour meter. It looked very
much like a home AC watthourmeter; big round glass case, clockwork
geartrain, all run by a motor. But instead of the AC disk induction
motor, this one's motor looked like a d'Arsonval meter movement, but
with 3 coils and a tiny gold commutator, on a needle shaft with jewelled
bearings. A big PM magnet provided the field.
There was a shunt that converted current to a small voltage. This
voltage powered the motor. Motor speed was proportional to amps, so the
geartrain was calibrated in amphours.
The Sangamo amphour meter ran both ways; up or down. If someone was
serious about doing this, I'd suggest getting a Portescap "Escap" motor.
These are beautiful little Swiss instrumentation motors, complete with
the precision bearings and gold commutators. I have one about 1" long
and 0.5" in diameter. It is nominally a 12v motor, but runs on 0.1v at
2ma no load.
Hmmm to me "no load" means "slotted disk with phase detecting photo
interrupters" -- the guts from an old (computer) mouse would work well.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 29 Mar 2006 at 20:26, John Luck Home wrote:
> Oh dear I'm sorry that you feel that this is some sort of fight with
> winners and losers.
I don't think he meant it in that sense; rather that "you win" because you
gave the correct answer for longer service life (more frequent watering).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The replay was because John Actually Called me, Beacause someone called him
and told him I
Was Dissing his torque numbers..
While in fact I was pointing out how long it was available.
But Thanks Roger...I guess was comunicating as well as I thought I was.
The thought thread is how long can we keep John's head slammed into the Roll
Bar.....
And.. 350 volts on a commutated motor... is a LOT. Well atleast for these
small over grown fork truck motors we call EV motors.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: DC Motors for Racing (and Matt's Nissan 200SX)
> Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Well that was quick...
> >
> > But no replys on the EV list.
>
> I didn't think any was required; what you wrote seemed clear enough to
> me.
>
> Joe has estimated the torque based on physics, not motor ft-lbs/amp
> estimates, etc., so he is probably in the ballpark. 350-400 ft-lbs from
> each of the 8" motors at 2000A sounds reasonable based on prior
> discussions.
>
> If Joe has accelerometer data synchronised to the 'Zilla
> voltage/current/rpm data log, then perhaps he can actually derive
> estimated curves relative to voltage and current; if not, it seems we'll
> just have to wait for John to have a chance to get the 'Zombie on a
> dyno.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<< Since I only want to keep up with the traffic at the
few trafficlights I encounter when driving to work or
home, I see no need for having a EV that can drive
very fast.
Pascal>>>
Yeah, but don't you want to *smoke 'em* off the stop light?! Even when an EV
can't beat an ICE in the quarter, it can humiliate him off the line...
You said you want a pack of T-145's, which prefer the lower limits of a Curtis,
but even with an old Prestolite, you should have one nice zippy transit if you
trade the steel bug body for something both lighter and "slipperier". Other
than passing over a dike or two, or heading into some stiff winds, it doesn't
sound like you will have huge current demands.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Naval Jelly is one of several products composed primarily of Phosphoric
Acid.
It works well at neutralizing rust (iron oxide) by converting it to iron
phosphate.
Automotive body shop supply stores or marine supply stores would carry at
least one product like this. I use a thin liquid version called Ospho. It
works great.
Good luck!
Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of mike golub
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 6:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: rust removal
How successful is this product ?
Thanks
--- Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mike,
>
> I use a spray-on rust neutralizer made under the
> Naval Jelly brand.
> There are other similar products, which supposedly
> turn the rust into
> something benign and prime the metal for painting.
>
> You have to remove as much of the rust as possible
> with a wire brush
> or sandpaper. Then you spray on the neutralizer and
> let it sit for
> 24 hours. The rust turns black and the part is
> ready to be painted.
>
> Ralph
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.3/296 - Release Date: 3/29/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
> Where on the CV?
Here's a picture that shows it best:
www.users.qwest.net/~denniswilliamsha/OozingGrease.jpg
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Pestka, Dennis J" wrote:
> Do you have a "rough" idea on the additional cost to do a set up
> like this. Additional motor, contactors, wiring. Save on the
> transmission adapter, clutch, etc.
I can comment on the Tango setup as that's the one I'm most familiar
with.
The Tango has two motors, which independently drive each rear wheel
through separate 5:1 gear reducers. Thus, there is no transmission,
differential, or clutch.
There is a single Zilla motor controller. The motors are wired in series
or parallel to provide a 2-speed "electric transmission", and are
reversed electrically to provide reverse.
There are a total of 7 contactors for motor control. Their operation is
completely controlled by the Zilla's "hairball", as John Wayland
described.
Contactor #1 is a big Kilovac "Bubba", and serves as the main
disconnect. It connects the battery pack to the input of the controller,
and is there to serve as the emergency disconnect in case of a
controller failure. It needs to be rated to handle a worst-case
scenario.
The other six contactors are three pairs of Albright SW202's. The SW202
is actually two contactors prewired for series/parallel or
forward/reverse. One SW202 pair for series/parallel, and one to reverse
each motor. The contacts are arranged so when all contactors are off,
there is no path from either + or - of the battery or controller to any
motor terminal. This was important to avoid ground faults caused by
brush dust when charging with a non-isolated charger. Another advantage
of this arrangement is that there are at least 3 contacts in series for
every configuration; this meant the 120vdc rated SW202 could be used
with a 300v battery pack.
There are other arrangements that can save contactors. You could
eliminate the main contactor, and depend on the motor contactors to
interrupt a worst-case failure. You could only reverse one of the two
motors, to save another pair of contactors (this would work with the
"siamese" motor setup, where either motor can still drive both wheels
with a differential).
But overall, we felt that more contactors were cheaper, lighter, and
smaller than a transission and differential.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
