EV Digest 5305
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Reverse, was: Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Reverse, was: Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) WAS Public charging- APPROVED (and other stuff) Brush Life, now
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: OT/But Fun: Chevy gets commercials they never dreamed of
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 24V DC contactors on Ebay from HB Electrical Mfg Co
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: CURRENT ELIMINATOR NEWS
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Motor options
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Public charging- APPROVED (and other stuff)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE:CURRENT ELIMINATOR NEWS
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Motor options
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Motor options
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: my (theoretical) setup
by John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Dumb question time
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Independant Rear Suspension for Twin/Siamese DC Setup
by "Don Cameron \(New Beetle EV\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Mountain View Parade opportunity.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) identifying mystery forklift motors
by Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: internal resistance
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Motor options
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: identifying mystery forklift motors
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Dumb question time
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Reverse, was: Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Motor options
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting set up. But why try to run both motors at once? Reverse is supposed
to be slow and controlled. With no power one motor should free wheel nicely.
While the other should provide plenty of power to back up. Also from the
descriptions I have read I do not know if White Zombie is wired that way. I
could be wrong. But I thought the Motors each had a set of cables from the
Zilla. Otherwise I don't think you could have the electronic Series to
Parrallel shift the Zombie does down the track.
James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi All
How is this for reverse for a dual-motor racer? The motors will need to be
well synchronised, and locked together - along the lines of White Zombie.
It requires a low-amp controller and one additional contactor, but the
Zilla may get upset as this goes with the controller doing its' thing
between the M- and the B-, if the controller sits between the B+ and the
M+, the small controller will have to go there.
Reverse contactor
o=o
===o o==M- controller 2
P1 |
o=o A1 | F2
M+=o o===@@@===@@@=======M- controller 1
| | |
| | S |
| | o=o |
| ===o o==== P2 |
| A2 F1 | o=o |
|==@@@====@@@===o o===
P1, P2 = parallel contactors
S = Series contactor
A1 = Armature motor 1
A2 = Armature motor 2
F1 = Field motor 1
F2 = Field motor 2
Current paths are as follows:
Forward, series mode, S contactor is closed, current flows A2, F1, A1, F2,
through the controller to B-.
Forward, Parallel mode, P1 and P2 contactors are closed, Current flows
parallel A1, F2 // A2, F1 then via controller to B-.
Reverse, Contactor P2 (but not P1) and reverse are closed, current flows
A2, F1, F2 (in reverse to forward flow) then via reverse controller to B-.
Alternatively to a small reverse contactor and small reverse controller, a
changeover contact between the forward M- position and the reverse
contactor connection point. Since John had trouble with the contacts of the
reversing set he had (the non-energised contacts) it may be better to add a
powered contactor of high current capacity for forward, and a lower current
one for reverse:
Reverse contactor
o=o
===o o=========
P1 | |
o=o A1 | F2 o=o |
M+=o o===@@@===@@@=======o o===M- controller
| | | Fwd
| | S |
| | o=o |
| ===o o==== P2 |
| A2 F1 | o=o |
|==@@@====@@@===o o===
P1, P2 = parallel contactors
S = Series contactor
Fwd = forward contactor
A1 = Armature motor 1
A2 = Armature motor 2
F1 = Field motor 1
F2 = Field motor 2
So this adds one high-power forward contactor, one lower power reverse
contactor and some wiring to get reverse.
Eureka? or do I get back in my box?
Regards
James
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:54 AM 1/04/06 -0800, Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
Interesting set up. But why try to run both motors at once? Reverse is
supposed to be slow and controlled. With no power one motor should free
wheel nicely. While the other should provide plenty of power to back up.
Also from the descriptions I have read I do not know if White Zombie is
wired that way. I could be wrong. But I thought the Motors each had a set
of cables from the Zilla. Otherwise I don't think you could have the
electronic Series to Parrallel shift the Zombie does down the track.
Hi Bruce - and all
This doesn't try to run both motors at once when going backwards - one
motor armature never gets powered in reverse, only its' field (which would
only add inductance). The cables that are there already are connecting the
two motors together and the contactors. The changes would be to change the
order of the armatures and fields, and add one wire to come away from the
motor assembly for the reverse contactor. If using the two-contactor
arrangement, the extra stuff in the motor bay would be one big contactor,
one small contactor, one power cable and a few small wires. The Zilla can
be programmed to use a slow set of limits for reverse.
Johns' motors are wired in a way that can make this very do-able, it is a
very clean way to install it. His issues are:
* In parallel mode, the motors must work the same for best performance.
* The motor bay must look super-neat, "sano" (IIRC) is Johns' term for it.
* John had trouble in previous years with a normal reversing contactor set
- problem 1) the normally closed set of contacts burned due to higher
contact resistance from the lower spring pressure vs solenoid pressure, and
2) the motor with the reverse contactor drew significantly less current in
parallel mode than the other one.
But there may be a fatal flaw in this method that I havent worked out. I've
been thinking about this off and on for a couple of months now, and this
morning I sat down with pen and paper and just drew it out, the flaws with
each previous method I've thought of all don't appear with this way, but...
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 4:47 AM
Subject: Re: Public charging- APPROVED (and other stuff)
> On 31 Mar 2006 at 21:23, Richard Acuti wrote:
>
> > How
> > long should I expect brushes to last in my old GE 11.67 hp motor? The
> > originals lasted almost 10k miles.
>
Brushes too soft?
> I remember reading in a 1980 paper from GE their estimate that their
> traction motor brushes would last 250,000 miles in road EV service. No
idea
> what happened there ...
Hi EVerybody;
Gees! 10K, SOMETHING is wrong! Mine have done about 70k or so and are
relatively like new. The comm. had a center ridge and outside ridges warn
into it. Had it turned when it was in the lathe from my beaten to death
output shaft, 8 thou warn,repairs. That was from, in my profound guess,
wisdom, from things being out of balance. Took the armature and assembled
flywheel, 6 lbs from 14, after slimming it down,had it balanced. Should be
quieter than the Diseasel was, now! Noe, of course, the fan cooled motor was
probably sucking in alota grit from the road. Betya COULD go 250K IF the
motor got filtered air?
My two brushes worth.
Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey! Lightning;
Thanks for the great links! Canya do one for the EV-1?But more poz theme,
of course.Been sendin' the links to folks that I think would enjoy it.
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 3:51 AM
Subject: OT/But Fun: Chevy gets commercials they never dreamed of
> This is so much fun!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 3:50 AM
Subject: RE: 24V DC contactors on Ebay from HB Electrical Mfg Co
> BTW - this same guy (In Boulder Creek, CA) has a few more of
> these contactors, but then single ones, not pairs.
> Sounds as if he is parting out the Citicar control - array of contactors
> (just guessing here - I never saw it)
> THey are new, or so he says.
> (Click on his store - Scooterparts to see them)
> Hi Cor an' EVerybody;
Yeah they sure look like City Car stuff, 'cept we used 12 volt coiled
ones on the Citi. One cool thing about HB's is that they come apart easily
for upgrades and repairs, like switching the coils to 12 volts. Those look
like 100 ampers.?So buy with confidence, they are good stuff. But I wouldn't
know about replacment parts? Like 12 volt coils or contacter tips?
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 3/31/06 11:02:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< 1st nite race since last year nets a win.26 cars show up to bracket race
with
many previous race winners and the division 7 2005 champ.(he also went to
the
final round at Pomona last year for the US champoniship)We took him out in
the 1st round after he introduced himself as the champ that was going to
kick my
...I had a .001 reaction time and ran on my 11.95 dial with a 11.953 and
never looked back.I cut 3- .001s and a .012 with a .001 in the final
round.It
could not get any better. Dennis Berube >>
No its not an april fools post!!!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't understand what the point of the statement
below is (in regards to hydrogen?), and I definitely
don't want to get into this hydrogen thread, but your
statement about methan/methanol is false. for the
record :
Methane is CH4.
Methanol is CH3OH.
So Methanol is methane where one Hydrogen atom is
replaced by an alcohol group. But still, I don't know
what the point is.
~fortunat
--- Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I forgot about that. Methane with one additional
> electron becomes
> methanol.
>
> Mike
>
> --- Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > At the present, the primary source for hydrogen is
> natural gas; a
> > product drilled for and exploited by, you guessed
> it, the petroleum
> > industry. Hydrogen, at this point in time, is
> little more than an
> > extension of the petroleum industry,
> >
> > Wayne W.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I finished the flywheel adapter using the Steve Clunn
(www.grassrootsev.com) method. It turned out very well, but isn't something
that a novice
should try to make. It took me about 4 hours total to measure, make a CAD
model,
and fabricate the part. I really would have liked a taperlock hub, but the
one I have should work fine with my 84 V system in the 92 Festiva.
Now, it is time to get a motor and start working on the mounting plate. I
really want to use an ADC 9" motor just so I have the extra mass to avoid the
possibility of overheating. I really don't need that big of a motor in the
Festiva, especially at only 84 V, but I think it is worth the extra money over
the
smaller motor (It really isn't that much more expensive in the big scheme of
things). Also, since it is a larger motor, I should get better performance
than if I was using the 8".
Can anyone confirm if I am making a good choice going with the 9" motor, or
if this is too much for the small car? Also, are there any drawbacks to using
that motor running at only 84 V? My other options are still to go with an 8"
(assuming it also has a 1.125" keyed shaft, because that is what the coupler
was made for), or the 11" lift motor out of my old car (36 / 48 V motor).
Since I am running only 84 V, is is possible that I would actually be better
off
with the 36 / 48 V motor over the ADC 9".
Either way, if anyone is looking to sell a used 9" (or I may even consider an
8"), please contact me off list. I am also looking at a charger for the 84 V
pack.
Thanks,
Steve
Atlanta
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm about to go perform surgery on an EV. Later on I'll look up the
source that I was quoting.
The point he was making was that most methanol is under the domain of
oil companies since it comes from methane that comes from oil drilling.
Mike
--- Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't understand what the point of the statement
> below is (in regards to hydrogen?), and I definitely
> don't want to get into this hydrogen thread, but your
> statement about methan/methanol is false. for the
> record :
>
> Methane is CH4.
> Methanol is CH3OH.
>
> So Methanol is methane where one Hydrogen atom is
> replaced by an alcohol group. But still, I don't know
> what the point is.
>
> ~fortunat
>
> --- Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I forgot about that. Methane with one additional
> > electron becomes
> > methanol.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > --- Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > At the present, the primary source for hydrogen is
> > natural gas; a
> > > product drilled for and exploited by, you guessed
> > it, the petroleum
> > > industry. Hydrogen, at this point in time, is
> > little more than an
> > > extension of the petroleum industry,
> > >
> > > Wayne W.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This may depend on your driving conditions, torque, gear ratio, and type of
commentator conditioning and brush types. I am running a 11.5 inch GE
traction motor for about 30 years. Most of my driving is starting up,
pulling about 300 motor amps acceleration and than at 25 mph at 50 battery
amps for only 1/2 mile. I repeat this several times which is about 5 miles
a day. I am just over 50,000 miles.
The brushes have a high silver content, where the wear area looks like
polish silver and is pre-curved. The commentator is also very hard material
that been Micro-Mirror, which was polish to a very high mirror finish. The
commentator is also V-groove between the segments. The face of the
commentator is also insulated down to the motor shaft and part of the motor
shaft to the bearing surfaces to prevent a conductive tracking of brush dust
to the motor chassic. There is also a large external filter air blower
connected to the brush covers to blow out the brush dust to a grill at the
bottom of the motor.
The brushes ride on the commentator at a very steep angle, where the face of
the brushes just about spans 4 commentator segments. There is also a set of
commentator poles.
In that time, the front brushes worn down about 1/2 way and the rear brushes
are only 1/3 way down in a 2 inch by 2 inch by 5/8 inch brushes. About
every 10,000 miles, switch the front brushes with the rear brushes (pair
brushes in a set) so you get a more even wear.
I still have a set of new spare brushes that I received in 1976 for a cost
of $480.00 for four double pair sets.
When I have the GE motor in maintenance I have a temporary Warp 9 motor that
I am using. The commentator on these motors are not as smooth and not
V-groove (the one I have). The brushes are softer and only cost $260 for
eight double pair sets. So this type of brush is not going to last as long
as in my GE motor. The Warp 9 commentator is more blacker in running 1000
miles than the GE commentator that has run 30 years.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 2:47 AM
Subject: Re: Public charging- APPROVED (and other stuff)
> On 31 Mar 2006 at 21:23, Richard Acuti wrote:
>
> > How
> > long should I expect brushes to last in my old GE 11.67 hp motor? The
> > originals lasted almost 10k miles.
>
> I remember reading in a 1980 paper from GE their estimate that their
> traction motor brushes would last 250,000 miles in road EV service. No
> idea
> what happened there ...
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dennis,
Congratulations.
<...I had a .001 reaction time and ran on my 11.95 dial with a 11.953 >
That is simple amazing.
BTW At the last autocross we ran, a guy came by and said he had met you at a
car show. He talked to you for about an hour and came away impressed with
your knowledge and impressed with EV's.
You continue to influence and inspire people.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Steve
At only 84 volts I doubt you can feed a 9er. Most people are running 2X to
3X the rated voltage of the motor. So, you're not even at the rated voltage of
a 9". If you go with the 36 / 48 then the 84 volts would allow you the needed
HP to push you around.
Just my opinion
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well, I finished the flywheel adapter using the Steve Clunn
(www.grassrootsev.com) method. It turned out very well, but isn't something
that a novice
should try to make. It took me about 4 hours total to measure, make a CAD
model,
and fabricate the part. I really would have liked a taperlock hub, but the
one I have should work fine with my 84 V system in the 92 Festiva.
Now, it is time to get a motor and start working on the mounting plate. I
really want to use an ADC 9" motor just so I have the extra mass to avoid the
possibility of overheating. I really don't need that big of a motor in the
Festiva, especially at only 84 V, but I think it is worth the extra money over
the
smaller motor (It really isn't that much more expensive in the big scheme of
things). Also, since it is a larger motor, I should get better performance
than if I was using the 8".
Can anyone confirm if I am making a good choice going with the 9" motor, or
if this is too much for the small car? Also, are there any drawbacks to using
that motor running at only 84 V? My other options are still to go with an 8"
(assuming it also has a 1.125" keyed shaft, because that is what the coupler
was made for), or the 11" lift motor out of my old car (36 / 48 V motor).
Since I am running only 84 V, is is possible that I would actually be better
off
with the 36 / 48 V motor over the ADC 9".
Either way, if anyone is looking to sell a used 9" (or I may even consider an
8"), please contact me off list. I am also looking at a charger for the 84 V
pack.
Thanks,
Steve
Atlanta
---------------------------------
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---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:14 AM 4/1/2006, you wrote:
Hey Steve
At only 84 volts I doubt you can feed a 9er. Most people are
running 2X to 3X the rated voltage of the motor.
Huh? Maybe most people you know run 2x - 3x the motor's rated
voltage. Maybe they are drag racers. Maybe they melt motors. We
have this funny idea that we believe in following manufacture
ratings, thus maintaining warranty.
You're right that 84V is really low, although the 9" is dyno-ed at
72V as part of the quality control at the factory. We don't
recommend less than 96V for a very basic street car, nor do we
recommend above 144V on the 9" motor.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 21:36, Roland Wiench wrote:
This is a article in a Electric Vehicle magazine, that provided the
calculations in designing a EV. You would have to ask a editor why he
would
use it in a EV magazine.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: my (theoretical) setup
On 28 Mar 2006 at 9:36, Roland Wiench wrote:
> Here is some data you could used for your design of your EV. It was
> derided by
> a engineer back in the 70's when he wrote a paper on the design and
> calculations used on a VW Beetle that he built and tested.
If it was derided by an engineer, who presumably had a reason for
expressing
his or her derision, I don't understand why you posted it. Or is
this the
design the engineer came up with as an improvement? Perhaps it worked
despite the engineer's concerns? <confused>
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
Lost in translation? Typo? I think he meant derived.
John F. Norton
via T-Mobile Sidekick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Neon John wrote:
>> For higher power systems, mercury displacement relays (MDR)are still
>> quite popular because they're stone-cold reliable and almost silent.
>> In this device, a ceramic plunger with something magnetic attached,
>> displaces a mercury pool, breaking it into two puddles and opening the
>> circuit. Any arcing is between two puddles of mercury.
>>
>> I have a dual pole 50 amp MDR on my annealing oven and another on my
>> neon processing bench's bombarder. The controller achieves
>> proportional control by varying the duty cycle of the power going to
>> the heaters. The cycle is 10 seconds. This relay operates twice
>> every 10 seconds as long as the oven is in operation. My setup is
>> over 20 years old and has gotten quite a bit of use and still the
>> relay operates perfectly. It is practically silent (just a gentle hum
>> from the solenoid coil), there is no arcing and, very important for my
>> lab, no EMI generated as there would be with either dry contacts or
>> solid state control.
>>
>> The bombarder's centerpiece is a 15kv, 50KVA pole pig (utility
>> transformer) driven in reverse to provide the high current at 15kv
>> necessary to process neon tubes. This MDR switches over 100 amps of
>> highly reactive power with no fuss and no muss. It replaced a NEMA 2
>> contactor which was quickly worn out (contacts burned) in the service.
>>
>>
>
> Do you know of any MDR relays that would be appropriate for EV use as a
> main contactor?
> They sound like the bee's knees ;)
>
As I recall MDR use a puddle of mercury to short two contacts. Ever
consider what will happen to the puddle when the car hits a bump?
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for all the replys. I did some investigation:
R200 Rear end 8" from Datsun/Nissan 280Z & 350Z
- somewhat long pinion
- some had internal U joints
- the R200V is limited slip
- weight ?
- torque rating? (at least what Matt can put through it)
- lots of gears available
Ford 8.8"
- 1989-1997 T-Bird, 1993-1998 MK-VIII, 1999-2004 Mustang Cobra with 8.8"
- aluminum housing available
- weight?
- torque rating?
Anyone know the respective torque ratings and weights of these rear ends?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "David Russel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Hi,
Iif you'd like to join in the Mountain View Parade on April 22 there is
still time to join up with the Arcaneish group. I have up to a total of 10
slots, about 3 of which are still open, and my application will be accepted
if sent by early Monday AM, despite the official 3/31/06 deadline. We have
a Peel Trident, Morris Minor, Citroen, probably a Renault Dauphine, maybe a
Devon, but no EV's.
let me know before end of day on Sunday, and if you want to participate
provide a few words about your Vehicle as the announcer will read a little
bit as participants pass the reviewing stand.
David [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I removed 4 motors from my surplus forklift last week (Baker FTD-110).
Only one of them (power steering) had a plate on it with partial
specifications (0.88 hp @ 48 V). The three other motors (two identical
hydraulic pump motors and the drive motor) just have Baker part numbers
on them.
Any suggestions on how to find out what the specs are for the mystery
motors? Can they be estimated from physical dimensions?
The two pump motors are approx. 8 x 15 inches (not including shaft
ends), 110 lbs, series wound.
The drive motor is approx. 12 x 15 inches (not including shaft ends),
235 lbs, shunt wound.
I'd ask the Baker forklift company, but they don't appear to exist anymore.
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wasn't Allan Cocone there too Lee? He's done a great job with high
voltage AC, even on their very first conversions. Makes me think GM
had some information. Maybe that's why Alan headed out to on his own.
He got tired of people not knowing or not looking outside for answers.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> The recent batch of auto company built EVs were an exception, because
> >> they were rank novices at EV design and tended not to pay any
attention
> >> to what existing EVs were already doing (it's called NIH or Not
> >> Invented Here syndrome). They used high voltages (around 300v), and
> >> so were more complicated, expensive, required far more stringen
safety
> >> precautions, and had many battery balancing problems.
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > This of course is oversimplifying things, Lee :-)
>
> Yes, guilty as charged. The full details of the situation are so complex
> that it would take a book to explain them. No one would bother to read
> it, and the point would be lost.
>
> I summarized it all into a single paragraph. I sought to distill out the
> essence of what they did as briefly and concisely as I could.
>
> > Reading this statement seem like people built high voltage EVs for no
> > purpose, I mean no advantages, just because they are ignorant to know
> > anything better. Hope this is not the case. I dare to think EV1
> > designers were (and are) smart enough to have valid reasons, whether
> > these reasons are relevant to a backyard hobbyists or not.
>
> No; I think the EV1 designers were very bright, skilled, and
> hard-working. They just lacked any experience with EVs, and NIH syndrome
> discouraged them from looking outside the corporation for answers.
>
> GM's internal experience with EVs came from things like their earlier EV
> experiments, like the 1965 Electrovairs; from its large diesel-electric
> locomotive division (Electromotive), and the various large AC motor
> drives used within their manufacturing organization. These systems all
> use high voltage, 3-phase AC induction motors. So that is naturally
> where they began.
>
> I know they considered DC motors, but rejected them because of perceived
> brush problems. The DC motors they were familiar with were small, cheap
> automotive grade motors, which have short life expectancies. They no
> doubt also considered their experiences with the old automotive
> generators; AC alternators are cheap and work better. These put the
> "thumb on the scale" against DC.
>
> Thus they thought their only real "option" was a high-voltage, AC
> system. They did not seriously look at anything else.
>
> When I was at EVS14 in 1998, I had a chance to talk to one of the GM
> engineers that designed the EV1 who was there presenting a paper. I
> found he was totally unaware of anything but the barest highlights of EV
> history. He'd never heard of thermal management in battery boxes, or
> battery management for long strings, or interpoles for high voltage DC
> motors. He knew nothing about chargers except the Magnecharger; nothing
> about batteries except Delphi and Ovonic. It was as if electric vehicles
> had never existed, and GM had invented them; and any technology not
> inside GM didn't exist. He was totally blown away to see the other EVs
> there, like the Solectria Sunrise or Japanese Luciole. He was shocked to
> see brushless DC motors in the HummVee and Zytek Lotus. He was the
> epitome of NIH.
>
> The reason that you study history is so you don't have to repeat it, and
> make all those mistakes yourself. Sure; 9 out of 10 things that old EV
> companies and hobbyists did turned out badly. But if you don't study
> them, you won't find the one solution that DID work!
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
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Hey Sherri, Steve, all
Well first I state that everything or at least most of what I post is in "my
opinion". Now I've seen and worked with enough people to know that most
systems are 120 volt and even at that most feel the performance is below what
they would want. Now people like Jeff, Doug, Jay, Nick and others who are
running daily driver single 9 motor can chime in here with their voltages. I
did a shaft job for Howard down in Cali who did a 36 / 48 volt 7" Prestolte in
a rabbit and it did 60 mph. So these are the basis of why I'd say up the
voltage rather than undersize the battery pack. I also had some calls from a
local guy who picked up a twin to the big Allis Chalmers motor I did for
Waylands Purple Phase truck. At 118 volts he got 41 mph in third gear and
fourth gear bogged the motor. 118 volts couldn't feed this big 72 OEM rated
motor (this is also why I told Rudman that I believe it'll take a lot of volts
to feed these monster motors).
In Steves case I'd recommend an 8" over the 9" being it would save him a few
bucks and at least the 8 he'd produce higher RPM's to make use of. Now I've
seen the graph's but not really studied them as I'm a real world kinda guy. I
like looking at the motors where I can see how it's doing in that particular
vehicle, and well some are happy and some are quite pissed, lmao.
Anyways there's a lot of differance between 84 and 144 let alone that extra
batt to just get it to 96 volts, and thats all I was trying to say here.
So steve what kind of performance are you looking for? Just continue to be
an informed consumer, like you're doing. Now remember that if you choose the
36 / 48 style motor you'll need to advance the brush ring assy (drill new holes
for the CE plate). If you decide to run an 8 or 9 then a neutral brush setting
would probably be prefered for your application.
Hey this is all from a guy who runs Hi-Torque Electric, not Limp Noodle
Electric, lmao, just kidding! Seriously though if my EV doesn't perform as
well as my gasser I'm not going to be happy, but then thats just my 400 Giga
amps worth 8^ )
Hope this helps
Jim husted
Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At 08:14 AM 4/1/2006, you wrote:
>Hey Steve
>
> At only 84 volts I doubt you can feed a 9er. Most people are
> running 2X to 3X the rated voltage of the motor.
Huh? Maybe most people you know run 2x - 3x the motor's rated
voltage. Maybe they are drag racers. Maybe they melt motors. We
have this funny idea that we believe in following manufacture
ratings, thus maintaining warranty.
You're right that 84V is really low, although the 9" is dyno-ed at
72V as part of the quality control at the factory. We don't
recommend less than 96V for a very basic street car, nor do we
recommend above 144V on the 9" motor.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
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Hey Darin
Ahhh a good old Baker motor. Are there any motor numbers on the motors?? If
you take some pics and send them to me I might be able to ID them at least.
I'm not familure with any shunt wound drive motor though so be fun to look at.
Maybe jar my memory from days when I saw Bakers, hehehe. I doubt I'd have any
real specs but once i know the motor I can throw out some feelers for ya.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque electric
Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I removed 4 motors from my surplus forklift last week (Baker FTD-110).
Only one of them (power steering) had a plate on it with partial
specifications (0.88 hp @ 48 V). The three other motors (two identical
hydraulic pump motors and the drive motor) just have Baker part numbers
on them.
Any suggestions on how to find out what the specs are for the mystery
motors? Can they be estimated from physical dimensions?
The two pump motors are approx. 8 x 15 inches (not including shaft
ends), 110 lbs, series wound.
The drive motor is approx. 12 x 15 inches (not including shaft ends),
235 lbs, shunt wound.
I'd ask the Baker forklift company, but they don't appear to exist anymore.
Darin
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
starting at 1¢/min.
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On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 09:54:36 -0700 (MST), "Peter VanDerWal"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> The bombarder's centerpiece is a 15kv, 50KVA pole pig (utility
>>> transformer) driven in reverse to provide the high current at 15kv
>>> necessary to process neon tubes. This MDR switches over 100 amps of
>>> highly reactive power with no fuss and no muss. It replaced a NEMA 2
>>> contactor which was quickly worn out (contacts burned) in the service.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Do you know of any MDR relays that would be appropriate for EV use as a
>> main contactor?
>> They sound like the bee's knees ;)
Sorry, I don't. I rarely buy one new. I grab 'em up surplus and at
hamfests whenever I see 'em. Just in case mecuriphobia grips the
world hard enough that they become unobtanium. I've never tried one
on DC personally, though I've seen them used on DC in industrial
equipment so I don't see why they wouldn't work.
>>
>
>As I recall MDR use a puddle of mercury to short two contacts. Ever
>consider what will happen to the puddle when the car hits a bump?
Yep, nothing. Not a puddle at all. A tube containing mercury and a
closely fitted ceramic displacer. The displacer's motion is highly
damped.
Oh, I suppose that if you played Evil Knievel or something like that,
the thing might momentarily open. But then, so would many other types
of contactors. Bumping the contactor open is the main limit on
off-road excursions on my GoBig scooter. I suspect that a momentary
open would be the least of your worries. Picking parts of your pack
up off the street would probably dominate your concerns.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Since you only must creep the car backwards, and efficiency is not
an issue, there is a simple way to put a get reverse without adding
much weight or putting an additional contactor in-line with the main
motor leads.
First you connect up a resistor and a small 12 volt battery (or your
DC-DC converter, if it is isolated) so that it puts, say, 50 amps
into the field winding in the opposite direction that it normally
goes. You then just touch the throttle so that the controller output
current is 25 amps or so. You get 25 amps in the normal direction on
the armature and 25 amps (50-25) on the field in the reverse
direction. The motor spins backwards.
The bonus is that you can use the same set-up for field weakening
near the end of the strip.
This will work just fine with twin motors if you put them in parallel.
I've never actually tried this. It was just something I dreamed up.
It should work just fine as long as the 12 volt power source is
isolated from the traction pack.
At NEDRA events, they never have required reverse gear, however, the
NHRA does require it on cars and trucks. I think they do this to
curtail crew members from going out on the track to push the car back
to the starting line.
Bill Dube'
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--- Begin Message ---
Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
may i advise you purchasing only one and making your own testing before
taking the plunge. If they take 300A without sagging to much you will be more
confident they will live more than few months on your EV.
It will be finally a bad deal to make your design arround inexpensive good
claimed spec. batteries if you have to change them few weeks after the waranty.
I couldn't agree more. Trouble is, I was hoping to avoid such testing by
simply using a group 27 or 31 AGM that has accumulated EV experience.
Surely there is a group 27 or 31 AGM that has achieved good results in more
then one person's EV.
Has anyone used the Deka Intimidator 9A31's?
Mark
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New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC for low, low
rates.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
From Jim Husted: At only 84 volts I doubt you can feed a 9er. Most
people are running 2X to 3X the rated voltage of the motor.
Electro Automotive wrote:
Huh? Maybe most people you know run 2x - 3x the motor's rated
voltage. Maybe they are drag racers. Maybe they melt motors.
Yes, guilty as charged as to the drag racer thing. This happens though,
at the 'very' high voltages and 'very high' currents where we are
pushing the performance and durability edge. On the other hand, with
expert motor help from Jim Husted, so far, melted motors are a thing of
the past for now.
We don't recommend less than 96V for a very basic street car, nor do
we recommend above 144V on the 9" motor.
I've run Blue Meanie's 'properly advance timed' ADC 9 inch motor at 156V
for I think, 10 years now. Not a single motor problem, and the original
brushes are at around 75% still. Many others, like John Bryan and his
192V Ghia with its XP super torque'n 8 inch ADC motor, have also not had
any problems at all....nor has Bill Dube's 192V Wabbit...this list could
go on and on.
>We have this funny idea that we believe in following manufacture
ratings, thus maintaining warranty.
I have this funny idea of knowing the manufacturer (ADC) isn't smart
enough to advance the timing to 10-12 degrees so that their motors will
run properly for the market they sell them for...EVs. Can you say Corbin
Sparrow? I also have this funny idea of running an EV's motor at higher
voltages for far less average current to keep the motor running cooler,
the com. and brushes lasting far longer, and for making power on order
with what the gas version originally had (or even more).
I would suggest that running these motors at between 96V and 120V is
probably way harder on them, than at higher voltages, because to get any
semblance of acceptable power at these lower voltages, the average
current needs to be way higher than when run at the higher voltage
levels, thus more heat and com. damage. Add in the fact that most of the
Electro Automotive designs feature very heavy conversions with lower
than average power, and you are asking the motor to work under even more
duress. Most of the Electro Automotive designs use the squealing Curtis
controller only capable of 500 amps. On a 96V Rabbit, a small car that
unfortunately weighs in at over 3000 converted lbs., considering 6V wet
cell voltage sag under 500 amp draws, there's only 40 kw of max power,
or just 40 delivered hp to move 3000 lbs. of mass....argh! Talk about a
prescription for low performance and an overheating motor!
The 108V Ford Escort conversion I used to own that I lovingly named
'Sluggo' had a 9 inch GE motor that got so hot I could barely touch it.
With its low performance Curtis controller and low performance wet cell
pack, this over weight 108V EV had miserable acceleration and hill
climbing ability, and a motor that was always very hot due top high
average currents at low voltages.
I find it rather amusing to hear Shari arguing motor durability with the
likes of Jim Husted, a guy who's adult life has been immersed in
electric motor design and repair, a guy who makes his living working on
all models of DC motors for EV use, and the guy who co-designed and
built the world's most powerful, the world's quickest and fastest, and
world record setting 8 inch DC motor!
See Ya......John 'high voltage' Wayland
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