EV Digest 5304
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Charger for 270V input?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Public charging- APPROVED (and other stuff)
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Public charging- APPROVED (and other stuff)
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 24V DC contactors on Ebay from HB Electrical Mfg Co
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: internal resistance
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) (no subject)
by Brian Cole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Regen Setup (was FW: Large AH SLAs available with total height
of 8" or less?)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE:CURRENT ELIMINATOR NEWS
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Reverse, was: Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Exceeding contactor ratings?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: 24V DC contactors on Ebay from HB Electrical Mfg Co
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) OT/But Fun: Chevy gets commercials they never dreamed of
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) 1996 E-10 on Ebay in Sebastopol, CA
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: my (theoretical) setup
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Public charging- APPROVED (and other stuff)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Public charging -- DC generator
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Come on Guys I know how common 277 is...
It's very rare for the home owner or even the Corporate guy.
Yea it's in the Big places..so is everything.
In What 6 years of making chargers... I have had what 2 requests for 277???
With Bigger chargers being asked for every day... It is starting to be
thought of again.
Like I said I made my own, just because a 277 rectified is about good enough
for Switcher dropping to 360 volts DC. Our voltage target was low enough
where rectifying 480 would have put serious stress on the 600 volt IGBTs.
And 240 was not enough. So the intermediate voltage is 277. Getting that
requires 480 Y on the primary and 277 Delta on the secondary. We can tune
the transformer from 352 to 413 by resetting the voltage trim taps.
Unloaded last night we had 377 on the DC buss. Dropping this to 177 will
make some pretty healthy heat loads in our inductors..We now have a 144 volt
nominal target.... Instead of 312 volts. We are kinda stuck with this for
now since the transformer is in place. If we had this voltage target when we
did the first design we would have Speced out a 480 primary 240 Secondary.
Or even a 208 for that matter. So compromises are the norm in making clients
happy. Switcher dropping 377 to 177 is more reach than I wanted. But.. we
will see how our heat loads are, and I will be taking notes.
The funny thing is the transformer makes a LOT less 60hz humm on 480 that
it did on 208. That's a nice surprise.
What else is going to change???? only time will tell
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: Charger for 270V input?
> Not all that uncommon. I worked in a very large office building where the
> main service was 480 three phase. All the HVAC, elevators, etc. were 480
> three phase and the lighting circuits were 277. They had stepdown
> transformers scattered about to provide 120. All the lighting in the
> parking lot was 277 as well. Probably would have been easy to get a 277
tap
> in the parking lot to charge from, but I never tried. Driving was too
much
> of a hassle. I rode the train in then took the subway.
>
> Dave
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: Charger for 270V input?
> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:34:04 -0800
>
> Yes you would need a step down.
> Even my PFC chargers can't do 277. In fact I don't recomend anything more
> than 250.
>
> 277 is not very standard.. at all. It's one phase of 480 phase to ground.
It
> takes a special order to get to a transformer for this voltage. It's
normal
> enough for the transformer guys, but... you have to ask for it.
>
> 480 to 277 is what the 75K charger has for the isolation front end.
>
> I was playing with this stuff last night.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 12:14 PM
> Subject: Charger for 270V input?
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > On the topic of charging at work, the electrical distribution in the
> garage
> > where I work is 270V, which is standard I understand for commercial
> > distribution. I know at the college I was at I remember hearing all the
> > lighting was at 270V.
> >
> > Is 270 "close enough" to 240 that a charger rated for 110-240 could run
> at
> 270
> > as well? Or would I need a step down transformer like a 240->208? This
> would
> > bring 270 to around 240.
> >
> > Erik
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice job Richard. Is this a Metro parking lot, or a private one. If
private, I'd be curious as to the location in case I would want to take
the Prizm into work.
Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find.
Chris
Richard Acuti wrote:
On Wednesday, the county garage manager approved me for a permenantly
reserved space right in front of the security booth. The space has a
support column with a 110 v outlet on it. I've been charging there since
then.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Acuti wrote:
> replaced the brushes a few hundred miles ago. My understanding is that
> Advance DC motors only need a brush replacement every 80(?)k miles. Is this
> true? How long should I expect brushes to last in my old GE 11.67 hp motor?
> The originals lasted almost 10k miles. Is this right or should they be
> lasting longer. The commutator didn't have any pits or scoring when I
> inspected it. I blew the carbon dust out with air and I figure I'm due to do
> it again this weekend.
In aircraft, the brushes are replaced when they are worn down half
way. How far down were yours worn?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 9:51 PM
Subject: 24V DC contactors on Ebay from HB Electrical Mfg Co
> Two contactors with two contacts, this should be
> usable as a reversing contactor.
>
> I understand HB Electrical was used in Citycar.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ7599826464QQcmdZViewItem
>
Hi EVerybody;
Yes HB's were used in the Citicars, the famous Series parallel bare bones
basic controller, and a reverse contacter, too.By the way what EVer happened
to HB?? in Mansfield Ohio?I felt that their contacters are the best on the
planet. I'm using one for my lineswitch on the Rabbit. Mine are hevier than
the E bay [EMAIL PROTECTED] amps. My first controller used a single pole and a
double pole setup.Old ones from my EFP daze in Detroit, with Bob Aronson.
Heard rumers that HB got bought out?They must still, somebody, make them
today?
My two poles worth
Bob
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
This of course is oversimplifying things, Lee :-)
...
I summarized it all into a single paragraph. I sought to distill out the
essence of what they did as briefly and concisely as I could.
That is OK and valuable approach, my fear is, without any background
it is taken as axiom just because there is no other option. Just
too black ands white. As you said, issue is very complex to state
in one sentence, but you managed: "AC is out there *mainly* because
designers didn't bother to learn about preceding history of DC".
I agree, there may be more ignorant engineers than genuine ones.
But despite your example of a dumb guy from GM you met at EVS14,
I don't thing EV1 would be what it is (was) if used a DC system.
Even after thorough history search.
DC driven vehicles are most numerous and for good reasons.
All depends on priorities. If for instance GM perceived
(right or wrong) that average driver won't like to shift,
they must use 10k rpm motors then to cover entire speed
range on one gear, AC or DC.
Well, given this constrain, the choice is quite clear.
Not because of ignorance of previous history.
My point is we don't know for sure what exactly dictated
GM's choices. Some of solutions sure was based on ignorance
but perhaps not fundamental choices.
But, yes, this guy should never have gotten close to
a design team. I suppose he was just an articulate paper
presenter for GM, not an engineer.
The reason that you study history is so you don't have to repeat it, and
make all those mistakes yourself. Sure; 9 out of 10 things that old EV
companies and hobbyists did turned out badly. But if you don't study
them, you won't find the one solution that DID work!
No arguing here, 100% agree. Few people bother though,
and it is sad. I think general attitude of most is - it worth to study
old EVs as much as study old tube based computers of 50th to make
better modern ones - so who bothers? Unless benefits are apparent and
immediate, no one will...
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
set ev mail postpone
end
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
...
With my regen set up this way I get approx 5-7% energy recapture. I am
considering (if I have time) to set up regen with a potentiometer like
Victors to I can use a lot more regen. I think Victor gets around 10% with
his variable regen, so there is some difference. I am not sure if he sees
as much as 240Amp though.
The amount of energy recovered vastly depends on the terrain and driving
conditions. On a freeway you gain *nothing* so if you get to work
and back using freeways, there is negligible benefit of regen.
But if you run errands in San Francisco, you may recover 15-20%.
With LiIons alone I set up regen to limit it to 40A (about 0.5C for
them). When I've added ultracaps absorbing most of it, I did not limit
amount of current, but never seen regen current more than about 150A,
which is very aggressive one, on the verge of locking up wheels.
Negative regen torque equal to a positive drive torque, this is
symmetrical machine, so you can decelerate as fast as you accelerate.
Even if I did the variable regen, the Siemens controllers are fully
programmable (must be 50 user settable parameters) so I can still limit the
max amount of regen.
Without sounding like marketing, I wanted to mention that
Siemens inverters offer several ways to limit regen: limit battery "in"
current, limit max battery voltage during regen, define battery voltage
"envelope" within which regen diminishes from max preset to zero (even
if max battery voltage isn't reached), limit motor regen current, limit
RPM beyond which regen diminishes, limit current ramp rate, so there is
no jerking or sudden changes. There is PID controller for fine tuning
vehicle behavior during regen, so, Don, you got choices :-)
I also have the controller set up so I do not take more than 200Amp out of
the battery. I have been told by engineers at East Penn, that this will
help increase their life.
I know Optimas like short high charge current peaks. May be East Penn
ones can benefit from them too, then you can easily set up inverter to
provide 0.5C or whatever charging (regen) current for brief moments
if you want.
Victor
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joel Hacker
Sent: March 31, 2006 3:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Large AH SLAs available with total height of 8" or less?
Don,
Do you use regen braking on your gel-cell setup on your VW bug??? How is it
configured to avoid this 6C recharge trap???
Christopher Zach wrote:
someone explain why it is not recommended to use gel cells in an ev?
I know of no such rule.
The one thing I would watch out for with gel cells is regen. Hawkers
can eat a 6C regen charge without batting an eyelash. Charging a gel
cell at 6C might wind up wrecking it.
Chris
--
Best Regards,
Victor Tikhonov
President and CEO
Metric Mind Corporation
http://www.metricmind.com
10645 SE Malden Street
Portland OR 97266-8028 USA
503-680-0026 ph
503-774-4779 fx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1st nite race since last year nets a win.26 cars show up to bracket race with
many previous race winners and the division 7 2005 champ.(he also went to the
final round at Pomona last year for the US champoniship)We took him out in
the 1st round after he introduced himself as the champ that was going to kick
my
...I had a .001 reaction time and ran on my 11.95 dial with a 11.953 and
never looked back.I cut 3- .001s and a .012 with a .001 in the final round.It
could not get any better. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All
How is this for reverse for a dual-motor racer? The motors will need to be
well synchronised, and locked together - along the lines of White Zombie.
It requires a low-amp controller and one additional contactor, but the
Zilla may get upset as this goes with the controller doing its' thing
between the M- and the B-, if the controller sits between the B+ and the
M+, the small controller will have to go there.
Reverse contactor
o=o
===o o==M- controller 2
P1 |
o=o A1 | F2
M+=o o===@@@===@@@=======M- controller 1
| | |
| | S |
| | o=o |
| ===o o==== P2 |
| A2 F1 | o=o |
|==@@@====@@@===o o===
P1, P2 = parallel contactors
S = Series contactor
A1 = Armature motor 1
A2 = Armature motor 2
F1 = Field motor 1
F2 = Field motor 2
Current paths are as follows:
Forward, series mode, S contactor is closed, current flows A2, F1, A1, F2,
through the controller to B-.
Forward, Parallel mode, P1 and P2 contactors are closed, Current flows
parallel A1, F2 // A2, F1 then via controller to B-.
Reverse, Contactor P2 (but not P1) and reverse are closed, current flows
A2, F1, F2 (in reverse to forward flow) then via reverse controller to B-.
Alternatively to a small reverse contactor and small reverse controller, a
changeover contact between the forward M- position and the reverse
contactor connection point. Since John had trouble with the contacts of the
reversing set he had (the non-energised contacts) it may be better to add a
powered contactor of high current capacity for forward, and a lower current
one for reverse:
Reverse contactor
o=o
===o o=========
P1 | |
o=o A1 | F2 o=o |
M+=o o===@@@===@@@=======o o===M- controller
| | | Fwd
| | S |
| | o=o |
| ===o o==== P2 |
| A2 F1 | o=o |
|==@@@====@@@===o o===
P1, P2 = parallel contactors
S = Series contactor
Fwd = forward contactor
A1 = Armature motor 1
A2 = Armature motor 2
F1 = Field motor 1
F2 = Field motor 2
So this adds one high-power forward contactor, one lower power reverse
contactor and some wiring to get reverse.
Eureka? or do I get back in my box?
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's 16% over-range so not impressive, it should work without any problems
if you stay in or best under the rated current range
but as rule it's not advisable to exceed any security components rating in
an EV.
Maybe you can take a security step further to make up for the risk and use
another one switching ground also.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 10:29 PM
Subject: Exceeding contactor ratings?
> Another question for the EV gurus,
>
> I have a SW200 contactor which is rated to 120V, and one of the options
I'm
> considering for my conversion is 18x8V which would bring the total pack to
> 144V. I know some voltage limits can be bent, motors for example, but
exceeding
> the contactor voltage rating makes me nervous. Welded contacts and blazing
> though a red light before I can get to the breaker... give me the shivers.
I'm
> tempted to oversize it so that whatever I end up using to drop the
contactor,
> be it everytime I brake or just the keyswitch, it works. Is this paranoid
or a
> legitimate concern? Thanks!
>
> Erik
>
>
> electriclittlecar.blogspot.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
China products are "more than sometimes" poor quality made (the world ask
them for cheap)
may i advise you purchasing only one and making your own testing before
taking the plunge.
If they take 300A without sagging to much you will be more confident they
will live more than few months on your EV.
It will be finally a bad deal to make your design arround inexpensive good
claimed spec. batteries if you have to change them few weeks after the
waranty.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Freidberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> It sounds like people are quoting you full retail single-piece prices.
You need to push harder. Tell them you want X quantity of batteries, and
want a quantity pricing. They are heavy enough to justify a special shipment
right from the factory, which is good so all will be of the same age and
same batch.
>
>
> Right, that's what I did with the Concorde "master distributor." Yet
they didn't want to budge much, so I moved on.
>
> I did go into my local Batteries Plus store and they have their Werker
line including a 100 ah @ C20. They were actually able to produce a 200 page
spec sheet complete with discharge curves up to 300 amps. Normally $149,
they'll go to $129 for an order of 1 dozen. They say it is a good battery
and it has a 1 year warranty. It's a nice looking battery, made in China too
though. But maybe that's not a negative.
>
> Batteries Plus is close by so I can easily return any that go bad if
they did. There seems to be a customer service orientation there from what I
could tell during my brief visit.
>
>
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> But if cheap is the goal, you can also find used or surplus AGMs. A few
years ago, I bought a dozen new but
> 3-year-old surplus Hawker SBS60 from ABC Electronics in Minneapolis for
$28 each. The Surplus Center is selling a
> similar model (SBS60/2, item #11-3096) for $34.95.
>
>
>
> Nope, I'm ready to get real. I did connect up 8 39 ah Hawkers that I
purchased from Surplus Center. They were good for checking that the Geo
actually would run okay prior to a large pack investment.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save
big.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got a set of 16 East Penn Deka Intimidator 9A31's for $140 each. That was
the dealer's price delivered to him in Anchorage. I caught them when the
Deka rep was in town and he gave me his card. Its in my office though. I
could get it for you and you could call him to see if he has any dealers in
your area that he'd do the same deal with. He's the one that mentioned to
the dealer to let them go at his cost. Indeed the quantity request is what
made that deal possible. Now they want to see the truck when its finished.
Some of the kids that worked at the dealership were into drag racing and I
turned them to the NEDRA and Dragtimes sites.
Don't know how they work out yet, not done with my conversion. They were
square on the corners, had flush tops and were at the right price.
Mike
Anchorage, AK.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of mike young
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 10:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
I bought 12 Deka Gel gp 27 new from a distributor in syracuse ny at $120
each about 12/06 mike young
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electro Automotive" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
> At 06:10 AM 3/31/2006, you wrote:
> >
> > For the time being I've settled on installing a single series
> > string of group 31 or group 27 (or larger if possible) AGMs.
> >
> > For these sizes, which if any battery brands have a history of
> > good results amongst EVers? As far as where to buy, who has a
> > record of good customer service with the EV community?
> >
> > A few that have been ruled out so far (but could be reconsidered):
> >
> > -Hawkers (Enersys?) too expensive if well over $200/battery.
> > -Optima YT: also may be too expensive, recent quality concerns?
> > Doesn't have brick shape, so may not be great choice for
> > installation on its side.
> > -Concorde: "master distributor" wanted $229+ per battery, no thanks.
>
> No personal experience here, but Jim Ramos at American Battery
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] likes a new one, Discover, by
> Powerstride. Talk to him for details.
>
> Shari Prange
>
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have some Johnson Controls UPS-475 batteries (110 AHr at C/20, 99#, ~14x7
footprint ). I retired them from my EV about three years ago. Last spring
they still made name plate AHR rating at C/5. The internal resistance had
gone up making the car too sluggish. I believe they have a production date
of 1995 on them.
IIRC Rich Rudman was running these in Goldie before he discovered Optimas.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Freidberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 6:10 AM
Subject: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
For the time being I've settled on installing a single series string of
group 31 or group 27 (or larger if possible) AGMs.
For these sizes, which if any battery brands have a history of good
results amongst EVers? As far as where to buy, who has a record of good
customer service with the EV community?
A few that have been ruled out so far (but could be reconsidered):
-Hawkers (Enersys?) too expensive if well over $200/battery.
-Optima YT: also may be too expensive, recent quality concerns? Doesn't
have brick shape, so may not be great choice for installation on its side.
-Concorde: "master distributor" wanted $229+ per battery, no thanks.
Mark
---------------------------------
Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo!
Messenger with Voice.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BTW - this same guy (In Boulder Creek, CA) has a few more of
these contactors, but then single ones, not pairs.
Sounds as if he is parting out the Citicar control - array of contactors
(just guessing here - I never saw it)
THey are new, or so he says.
(Click on his store - Scooterparts to see them)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bob Rice
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 8:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 24V DC contactors on Ebay from HB Electrical Mfg Co
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 9:51 PM
Subject: 24V DC contactors on Ebay from HB Electrical Mfg Co
> Two contactors with two contacts, this should be
> usable as a reversing contactor.
>
> I understand HB Electrical was used in Citycar.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ7599826464QQcmdZViewItem
>
Hi EVerybody;
Yes HB's were used in the Citicars, the famous Series parallel bare bones
basic controller, and a reverse contacter, too.By the way what EVer happened
to HB?? in Mansfield Ohio?I felt that their contacters are the best on the
planet. I'm using one for my lineswitch on the Rabbit. Mine are hevier than
the E bay [EMAIL PROTECTED] amps. My first controller used a single pole and a
double pole setup.Old ones from my EFP daze in Detroit, with Bob Aronson.
Heard rumers that HB got bought out?They must still, somebody, make them
today?
My two poles worth
Bob
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is so much fun!
Here are my Commercials...
http://tinyurl.com/foy66 or
http://www.chevyapprentice.com/view.php?country=us&uniqueid=638f64ce-12a8-1029-98eb-0013724ff5a7
and
http://tinyurl.com/e6e6c or
http://www.chevyapprentice.com/view.php?country=us&uniqueid=ab275446-12ac-1029-98eb-0013724ff5a7
Here are the three that brought me to the site in the first place.
L8r
Ryan
-------- Original Message --------
Apparently Chevy didn't take into account their creative critics
when they invited the public to make commercials for the Tahoe.
I've been wanting to make one about the Hummer being a bummer
when there's no earth left for it to roam, but this will do nicely.
Check out first one.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/indexn?blogid=3
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe,
I would not be so quick in judging all China products the same.
Agreed that they have made a "learning curve" and still there
are worthless products, because *we* ask them to make a product
without willing to pay the price for a good product.
But I have the impression that the majority of batteries come
from China these days, even from US suppliers.
I have seen very good quality products being manufactured in
China, so I was not so afraid to order my batteries from a US
company that shows they are actively steering their quality
control of their battery production in China; giving a full
year warranty and promising that if the batteries lose 10%
capacity in that year it is considered a warranty case and
getting group 30 AGM batteries for $85 delivered in my driveway.
I have put over 1500 miles on them now, not a history that
proves that these are good in the long run, that is why I
initially did not react (and I emailed with Mark before)
but I am very happy with these batteries so far, the absence
of battery balancing in my truck has not bothered them at all
and in fact they are better balanced now than they were when
I installed them, so apparently a controlled, slow, overcharge
does not harm and when the current is low enough they should
not vent so they stay at their rated spec while balancing the
batteries to get all at "full" capacity.
Only time will tell if these (China made) UB121100 will perform
for the 3 years / 24,000 miles that I expect them to last.
I *do* consider my truck a test case for these batteries, as
I do not know of anybody that has used them before. So there is
a risk of premature death, they have not been proven in long-term
cycling application, but the engineers were confident that this
battery can stand up to that task, they had discharge spec sheets
available for the battery that showed its capacity over different
discharge rates, including 1 hour and below.
And the price comparison with the usual battery in this truck
made me think only once.
Actually I have heard of many people killing the original batteries
in this truck prematurely. My theory is that this is due to the
two parallel strings of batteries, without load balancing.
Result is that the lowest resistance string gets the highest load,
gets warmer than the other, further reducing the resistance, so it
carries even more load and before you know the two parallel strings
are discharged in series: first the "warmest" string gets hammered
with the majority of the current, then when it starts to die, the
cold string gets hammered. Recipe for disaster.
My single string of batteries gets hammered with the full current
every time, but since my batteries are almost 3x capacity of the
original batteries, they can take this current.
Oh and the approximately 60 miles of mixed city/freeway driving
that I get from 26 of these batteries in my heavy truck is more
than I initially expected. The controller is limited to 200A and
they do not sag much, due to 4 milliOhm internal resistance.
(That is their spec, I still need to take reading on battery
voltage while driving.)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Philippe Borges
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 11:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
China products are "more than sometimes" poor quality made (the world ask
them for cheap)
may i advise you purchasing only one and making your own testing before
taking the plunge.
If they take 300A without sagging to much you will be more confident they
will live more than few months on your EV.
It will be finally a bad deal to make your design arround inexpensive good
claimed spec. batteries if you have to change them few weeks after the
waranty.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Freidberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> It sounds like people are quoting you full retail single-piece prices.
You need to push harder. Tell them you want X quantity of batteries, and
want a quantity pricing. They are heavy enough to justify a special shipment
right from the factory, which is good so all will be of the same age and
same batch.
>
>
> Right, that's what I did with the Concorde "master distributor." Yet
they didn't want to budge much, so I moved on.
>
> I did go into my local Batteries Plus store and they have their Werker
line including a 100 ah @ C20. They were actually able to produce a 200 page
spec sheet complete with discharge curves up to 300 amps. Normally $149,
they'll go to $129 for an order of 1 dozen. They say it is a good battery
and it has a 1 year warranty. It's a nice looking battery, made in China too
though. But maybe that's not a negative.
>
> Batteries Plus is close by so I can easily return any that go bad if
they did. There seems to be a customer service orientation there from what I
could tell during my brief visit.
>
>
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> But if cheap is the goal, you can also find used or surplus AGMs. A few
years ago, I bought a dozen new but
> 3-year-old surplus Hawker SBS60 from ABC Electronics in Minneapolis for
$28 each. The Surplus Center is selling a
> similar model (SBS60/2, item #11-3096) for $34.95.
>
>
>
> Nope, I'm ready to get real. I did connect up 8 39 ah Hawkers that I
purchased from Surplus Center. They were good for checking that the Geo
actually would run okay prior to a large pack investment.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save
big.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Buy it now is "only" $12,900
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ4627153299QQrdZ1
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 31 Mar 2006 at 17:58, Doug Weathers wrote:
> Perhaps Roland meant "derived"?
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 31 Mar 2006 at 21:23, Richard Acuti wrote:
> How
> long should I expect brushes to last in my old GE 11.67 hp motor? The
> originals lasted almost 10k miles.
I remember reading in a 1980 paper from GE their estimate that their
traction motor brushes would last 250,000 miles in road EV service. No idea
what happened there ...
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You'd probably use less gas and make far less pollution if you just took
a normal sedan, even for the entire trip. A diesel genny is a beast!
The inverter gens (Honda eu1000/2000/3000i and its clones) are a lot
cleaner and more efficient. Still, this is only 1kw-3kw, this could
take many hours at full throttle to charge the pack.
I haven't actually checked the waveforms on my eu1000i, but I assume
it's a modified square wave. This is nice to build a dc/dc converter
that utilizes the entire output of the generator. There isn't really a
power factor issue here because once it's rectified it's almost hooked
straight up to the generator's internal DC rail.
Let's see... if you need 0.3kwh/mi, running an eu1000i at 900W (its max
continuous rating) is only charging 3 mi capacity per hour (minus cycle
efficiency losses). I saw where this gen's 0.6gal tank at 900W will run
3.8 hr, or 0.175gal/kwh. This equates to 19 mpg, and emissions are
probably 5x-10x worse than a recent model sedan per gal. Taking into
account charger and battery cycle efficiencies, you might be down to 15
mpg. That makes it much nearer to a Hummer H2 than a Geo Metro in fuel
consumption, and a pre-catalytic converter Chevy for emissions. That's
with about the most efficient small generator made, too. The same calc
for the eu3000i figures I found show 0.169 gal/kwh which is within the
differences just from rounding off the figures in the spec. Basically
this suggests the specific fuel consumption is consistent from model to
model.
OK so if you say this will allow you to drive 80% on grid-originated
electricity and 20% on gen-originated electricity, you could sort of
claim 75 mpg for the whole trip, though this neglects the cost (and
plant emissions) of the grid electricity. Also I didn't base this on
your actual kwh/mi. I've seen 0.15kwh/mi mentioned in regards to
Solectria Force, which would of course radically change the picture.
The rest of the efficiency figures should be fairly close to reality.
Danny
DM3 wrote:
I only need a 20% charge to get back home, if I charged on the way to and
from and start the generator an hour before I leave it may be enough of a
charge to get home. I have a solectria E10 and I can throw it in the back
pretty easy.
I thought that a dc generator would be more efficient than an ac generator
with a battery charger.
Has anyone used a DC generator to charge a pack or have any info on using
one as a charger?
Thanks,
Jimmy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes i really think so,
In this logic i have writen: "the world ask them for cheap" and not (they
make cheap products) it's a lot different :^)
This said i'm aware they can produce (if asked at start) products with high
quality requirement and even with our regulations still being inexpensive
compared to our price...
I suppose you was needing your EV car and so made a thoughful bet in this
ones but imho a battery cycler is an easier and less expensive way to test,
i use this solution each time i want to have real numbers...if i don't need
results within 3 or 4 months :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 11:38 AM
Subject: RE: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
> Philippe,
>
> I would not be so quick in judging all China products the same.
> Agreed that they have made a "learning curve" and still there
> are worthless products, because *we* ask them to make a product
> without willing to pay the price for a good product.
> But I have the impression that the majority of batteries come
> from China these days, even from US suppliers.
>
> I have seen very good quality products being manufactured in
> China, so I was not so afraid to order my batteries from a US
> company that shows they are actively steering their quality
> control of their battery production in China; giving a full
> year warranty and promising that if the batteries lose 10%
> capacity in that year it is considered a warranty case and
> getting group 30 AGM batteries for $85 delivered in my driveway.
>
> I have put over 1500 miles on them now, not a history that
> proves that these are good in the long run, that is why I
> initially did not react (and I emailed with Mark before)
> but I am very happy with these batteries so far, the absence
> of battery balancing in my truck has not bothered them at all
> and in fact they are better balanced now than they were when
> I installed them, so apparently a controlled, slow, overcharge
> does not harm and when the current is low enough they should
> not vent so they stay at their rated spec while balancing the
> batteries to get all at "full" capacity.
>
> Only time will tell if these (China made) UB121100 will perform
> for the 3 years / 24,000 miles that I expect them to last.
> I *do* consider my truck a test case for these batteries, as
> I do not know of anybody that has used them before. So there is
> a risk of premature death, they have not been proven in long-term
> cycling application, but the engineers were confident that this
> battery can stand up to that task, they had discharge spec sheets
> available for the battery that showed its capacity over different
> discharge rates, including 1 hour and below.
> And the price comparison with the usual battery in this truck
> made me think only once.
> Actually I have heard of many people killing the original batteries
> in this truck prematurely. My theory is that this is due to the
> two parallel strings of batteries, without load balancing.
> Result is that the lowest resistance string gets the highest load,
> gets warmer than the other, further reducing the resistance, so it
> carries even more load and before you know the two parallel strings
> are discharged in series: first the "warmest" string gets hammered
> with the majority of the current, then when it starts to die, the
> cold string gets hammered. Recipe for disaster.
> My single string of batteries gets hammered with the full current
> every time, but since my batteries are almost 3x capacity of the
> original batteries, they can take this current.
>
> Oh and the approximately 60 miles of mixed city/freeway driving
> that I get from 26 of these batteries in my heavy truck is more
> than I initially expected. The controller is limited to 200A and
> they do not sag much, due to 4 milliOhm internal resistance.
> (That is their spec, I still need to take reading on battery
> voltage while driving.)
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Philippe Borges
> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 11:20 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
>
>
> China products are "more than sometimes" poor quality made (the world ask
> them for cheap)
> may i advise you purchasing only one and making your own testing before
> taking the plunge.
>
> If they take 300A without sagging to much you will be more confident they
> will live more than few months on your EV.
>
> It will be finally a bad deal to make your design arround inexpensive good
> claimed spec. batteries if you have to change them few weeks after the
> waranty.
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Freidberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 9:07 PM
> Subject: Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
>
>
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > It sounds like people are quoting you full retail single-piece prices.
> You need to push harder. Tell them you want X quantity of batteries, and
> want a quantity pricing. They are heavy enough to justify a special
shipment
> right from the factory, which is good so all will be of the same age and
> same batch.
> >
> >
> > Right, that's what I did with the Concorde "master distributor." Yet
> they didn't want to budge much, so I moved on.
> >
> > I did go into my local Batteries Plus store and they have their Werker
> line including a 100 ah @ C20. They were actually able to produce a 200
page
> spec sheet complete with discharge curves up to 300 amps. Normally $149,
> they'll go to $129 for an order of 1 dozen. They say it is a good battery
> and it has a 1 year warranty. It's a nice looking battery, made in China
too
> though. But maybe that's not a negative.
> >
> > Batteries Plus is close by so I can easily return any that go bad if
> they did. There seems to be a customer service orientation there from what
I
> could tell during my brief visit.
> >
> >
> >
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > But if cheap is the goal, you can also find used or surplus AGMs. A few
> years ago, I bought a dozen new but
> > 3-year-old surplus Hawker SBS60 from ABC Electronics in Minneapolis for
> $28 each. The Surplus Center is selling a
> > similar model (SBS60/2, item #11-3096) for $34.95.
> >
> >
> >
> > Nope, I'm ready to get real. I did connect up 8 39 ah Hawkers that I
> purchased from Surplus Center. They were good for checking that the Geo
> actually would run okay prior to a large pack investment.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and
save
> big.
> >
>
> .
--- End Message ---
