EV Digest 5308
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: More or Less the Attitude of the Oil Companies, Comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: I need to rephrase my "motor options" question
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Dumb question time
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) automatic battery watering
by elaine chiu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: automatic battery watering
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: automatic battery watering
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: DC-DC converter: How to select?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: CURRENT ELIMINATOR NEWS
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) RE: Best 8V battery and best place to purchase 18 of them
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: internal resistance
by John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Best 8V battery and best place to purchase 18 of them
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: DC-DC converter: How to select?
by Matt Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: automatic battery watering
by "The Grinster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Motor Field Weakening for higher RPMs
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: automatic battery watering
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Time to review the plan one more time (somewhat long)
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Conversions by those without metalshop experience
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Conversions by those without metalshop experience
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Conversions by those without metalshop experience
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: DC-DC converter: How to select?
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 9:10 AM
Subject: Re: More or Less the Attitude of the Oil Companies
> Perhaps, perhaps not. I've actually seen some interesting commercials on
> satellite tv over here in the Middle East.
> Hi EVerybody;
> One stated "In the world wide search for oil, slightly over two barrels
> are consumed for every barrel discovered"
> Hmmmm, a message here somewhere?
> Another claimed that some large percentage of the worlds oil (can't
> remember exactly, but way over 1/2) comes from just five countries, then
> it finishes by asking "what country do you live in?"
Why is this important?
>
> Both commercials were sponsored by Cheveron Oil.
> I have seen the Cjhevron ads, too. But they don't mention the danage the
FOUND oil is doing for the Planet. Just the quest for MORE, to help their
bottom line. Hell, If they would just sell off their battery patent rights
to the Panasonic battery.An Icebreaker made it to the North Pole, recently.
Carnaval cruises will be able to sail the "Soverighn of the Artic" liner
there without an icebreaker, in a few years.And my inland Killingworth CT
property will be valuable Waterfront<g>!
>
> > All the more reason for EV's (as though more reasons were necessary).
> > Amen!
> >
60% outside today, nice global warming!
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have an EV-1 at 120vdc. Ford Courier. It never goes above 300 amps. It
keeps up with traffiic but that's it. It will go 65mph on the freeway. At
full blasting speed on a warm southern day it will go 40 miles. It has
horrible tires and when I switch to lrr I'm sure I'll add a lot to the
range. At 84v even with a bypass it may not meet your needs. But you are
using a Festiva. That makes a big difference. That little car at 84v might
be a hoot. I've never used a bypass so I don't know what raw 84v will do.
LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 2:44 PM
Subject: I need to rephrase my "motor options" question
OK. Here is what I want in my 92 Festiva. Since I haven't bought the
motor
or batts, I have time to change my mind.
I want GOOD ACCELERATION! Better than the ICE version (which was very
slow).
At least as good as my Toyota Corolla with 1.8 L, 4 cylinder engine. I'm
not asking for a drag car, but I need to keep up with the hectic traffic
here in
Atlanta. If it can't do that, I'm not wasting my time or money.
I wanted to use the GE EV-1 controller at 84 V with bypass (full 84 V,
unregulated) for acceleration.
84 V, ~150 A is more than enough to keep the car rolling at 50 MPH. The
bypass is for acceleration only.
I need exactly a 20 mile range and a cruising speed of 45 - 50 MPH. I
also
want to keep the batt weight down. That's why I went with the 14 X 6 V
design.
I can use the 11" lift motor, 7" x 15" Sep Ex lift motor, 8" ADC, 9" ADC,
or
any other motor that I can find / afford for that matter.
I can also use whatever battery pack option I can find and afford. The
afford part means it has to be floded lead acid.
So, what should I do? Do I have to change the controller? Should I be
using
the 9" ADC with 14 x 12 V flooded batts? I really had me heart set on
using
the 84 V EV-1 with bypass to keep the cost and weight down. But, it if
won't
give me good performance, then I'm not going to build it, and I might as
well
forget the project. Seriously, I won't build another underperforming car.
Please advise.
Thanks,
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>> As I recall MDR use a puddle of mercury to short two contacts. Ever
>>> consider what will happen to the puddle when the car hits a bump?
Neon John replied
>> Yep, nothing. Not a puddle at all. A tube containing mercury and a
>> closely fitted ceramic displacer. The displacer's motion is highly
>> damped.
> Ah, well perhaps the mercury relays I have aren't really MDR then.
> I picked them up at Dayton years ago. They all are clearly marked
> "this end up" or "only use in an upright position" etc. I assumed
> that since they care which way they are mounted that it would be
> possible to "bump" the mercury out of place, I have actually tried
> though.
There are many styles of mercury relays. For signal applications, there
are mercury-wetted reed relays. The switching element is a glass tube,
with an iron wire going in each end. The two wires overlap slightly at
their inside end, and are bent so they do not touch. The glass tube is
put inside a solenoid coil. When the coil is powered, the wires become
magnetized, attract each other, and touch. That's your switch. Remove
power, and the magnetism goes away, and the wires spring apart again.
Normal reed relays are "dry". Mercury wetted reeds include a trace
amount of mercury inside to wet the exposed metal. When the contacts
touch, the mercury film joins the two, producing a very good, reliable
connection. The liquid film also prevents contact bounce, a plague of
all other types of "dry" relays. Mercury wetted reeds are as close to a
"perfect" switch contact as we know how to make; infinite off
resistance, near zero on resistance, no bounce, and essentially infinite
life. They work in any position, but only come in small low-power sizes.
Next up are mercury disk relays. I have one rated 100v 3amps; it's about
3/8" diameter and 1.5" long. A little metal disk is your movable
contact. It sits in a shallow cup, and is held there by a drop of
mercury. The mercury wets the cup and disk, and its surface tension
holds them together regardless of position (like sticking a bit of paper
to your finger with water).
The cup has a glass lid, with an iron contact pin in the center. A
solenoid coil goes around this pin. When the coil is energized, the pin
becomes a magnet. Its attraction for the disk is greater than the
surface tension of the mercury, so it pulls it to touch. The mercury
behind the disk completes the connection from disk to cup. Current flows
from pin to cup. Remove power, and the magnetic attraction goes away.
Surface tension pulls the disk back away from the contact pin. This type
is also not sensitive to position, though it can be operated by shock or
vibration.
The larger types are all sensitive to position, because they have enough
mercury in them that it is influenced by gravity.
The most common type is the mercury tilt switch. A glass tube has two
contact wires, and is about 1/4-filled with mercury. Tilt the switch one
way, and the mercury shorts the wires. Tilt it the other way, and the
mercury runs to the other end and opens the wires. These relays were
used by the millions to switch the motors in furnaces, air conditioners,
industrial devices, etc. They easily switch 240v at 30amps and more, and
last forever, but have largely been phased out due to mercury paranoia.
This type is obviously VERY sensitive to position, and totally worthless
in a car.
Mercury displacement relays are the highest-power version. They have a
glass tube, vertically oriented, with a puddle of mercury in it. An
iron-bearing plunger sits loosely in the mercury pool. Iron floats on
mercury, so the plunger sticks up and the mercury level is down, low
enough so it doesn't touch two contact points just above the mercury's
level.
A solenoid coil goes around the glass tube. When powered, it pulls the
iron plunger down, counteracting the buoyancy of the mercury. The
mercury is displaced upward, and shorts the contacts.
The Magnecraft mercury displacement relay I've got has to be within 30
degrees of vertical to work, and even mild motion (like swirling the
water in a glass) will close it even if held vertical. So I'm sure it
would not work in a car. Maybe there are types that would work, but I
haven't seen them.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
what experiences are there with flow-rite, aquapro, hydrocaps or
water miser caps?
I plan to have either 20 x 6v or 20 x 8v flooded, mostly under the
truck bed, and I would like to make the watering as easy as possible.
(my bad back makes water refills harder and harder...)
I did search the archives, but wondered if anyone had piped together
a flow-rite system or something comparable recently.
also, is there a place to get a suitable float valve that would
work? the systems look pretty pricey once I buy 60 or 80 valves.
all the float valves that I have found so far are too big to fit in a
battery cell. any way to use drip watering and get it to stop when
the cell is full? how about a syphon system with water tank level at
the "full" level, so the syphoning should stop when full?
thanks
elaine chiu
berkeley, CA
converted mitsubishi pickup
'76 citicar
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Elaine,
You need some type of float value to not only to shut off the flow, but to
stop the a conductive path from one cell to the next. If you used a open
type fill systems, the venting pressure will flow from one cell to the next.
I at one time used Hydrocells, but I found a better which was told to me by
the Hydrocell company. My T-145's uses only 1 oz per month by only
discharging them down to 70-75% and charging to 80-85%. Then about once a
month I may discharge them down to 50% and take them to 100%.
I can loss about 6 oz's and still be about 1/4 inch above the plates, so my
watering may be done every 4 to 6 months. I add water to the cells when
I'am up to 80-85% charge, than finishing charging it to 100% so the water
will mix better. If you do not do this, the water just sets on top of the
electrolyte.
I have a enclosed battery box and the Hydrocells would not fit, so the
Hydrocell company told me to input air into the battery box, by installing a
total enclosed all plastic fan to exhaust the air at about 150 CFM. This
will help in reducing the battery watering.
This amount of air going into the battery box will mix the oxygen with the
hydrogen venting, which will reduce the water loss. The Hydrocell company
also makes absorbent pads to put in a enclosed battery container something
like baking soda box setting in refrigerator. So I set the batteries on a
1-inch thick layer of baking soda. After doing this in 2002, my batteries
today's are still super clean and no yellow tinge from venting on my bright
white porcelain enamel surfaces.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "elaine chiu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 11:42 AM
Subject: automatic battery watering
> what experiences are there with flow-rite, aquapro, hydrocaps or
> water miser caps?
>
> I plan to have either 20 x 6v or 20 x 8v flooded, mostly under the
> truck bed, and I would like to make the watering as easy as possible.
> (my bad back makes water refills harder and harder...)
>
> I did search the archives, but wondered if anyone had piped together
> a flow-rite system or something comparable recently.
>
> also, is there a place to get a suitable float valve that would
> work? the systems look pretty pricey once I buy 60 or 80 valves.
> all the float valves that I have found so far are too big to fit in a
> battery cell. any way to use drip watering and get it to stop when
> the cell is full? how about a syphon system with water tank level at
> the "full" level, so the syphoning should stop when full?
>
> thanks
>
> elaine chiu
> berkeley, CA
>
> converted mitsubishi pickup
> '76 citicar
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Copper conducts about 2x the amps for the same cross section of
> aluminum. Correct me If I am wrong.
Aluminum has about 1.5 times the resistance of copper for the same cross
section. The precise value depends on how pure the aluminum and copper
are, and how soft they are (100% pure, dead soft has the lowest
resistance for both).
For example, the standard wire table values for annealed copper and
hard-drawn aluminum #00 wire are:
copper aluminum
pounds/foot 0.4028 0.122 aluminum is 30% of the weight,
milliohms/foot 0.07793 0.122 and has 1.56 times the resistance
For the same resistance as the copper, use an aluminum wire about 2
sizes bigger (#2 aluminum = #4 copper, #0000 aluminum = #00 copper,
etc.).
#00 #0000
copper aluminum
pounds/foot 0.4028 0.195 aluminum is 48% of the weight,
milliohms/foot 0.07793 0.0804 and has 1.03 times the resistance
In other words, aluminum is about half the weight for the same
resistance.
There are additional subtle factors. The above is for HARD DRAWN
aluminum wire, which is what you normally get. SOFT DRAWN aluminum has
less resistance, but is so soft that it breaks easily. It is also so
mushy that it is harder to cut, drill, and make good pressure
connections to.
As pointed out, aluminum is a better heat conductor PER POUND, but a
worse heat conductor PER CUBIC INCH. It has a lower melting point than
copper, and a different specific heat. These can make a difference in
high peak current conditions.
> What makes sense is copper cables... and massive aluminum buss bars.
Maybe; it depends on the situation. It's easier to make connections
between the same metals. Connecting copper to aluminum requires special
techniques and skill. I'd be tempted to get my aluminum buss bars copper
plated, to simplify the connection difficulties. And, I'd minimize the
number of connections, and weld as many of them as possible, to
eliminate problems.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Elaine,
I have a Flowrite system in my Tropica and it works pretty well. I did have
some issue with over watering but that was fixed with a different pump. Their
system likes a flow rate that was higher than the pump that I had so it didn't
reliably shut off.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: elaine chiu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 10:42:48 -0700
Subject: automatic battery watering
what experiences are there with flow-rite, aquapro, hydrocaps or water miser
caps?
I plan to have either 20 x 6v or 20 x 8v flooded, mostly under the truck bed,
and I would like to make the watering as easy as possible. (my bad back makes
water refills harder and harder...)
I did search the archives, but wondered if anyone had piped together a
flow-rite system or something comparable recently.
also, is there a place to get a suitable float valve that would work? the
systems look pretty pricey once I buy 60 or 80 valves. all the float valves
that I have found so far are too big to fit in a battery cell. any way to use
drip watering and get it to stop when the cell is full? how about a syphon
system with water tank level at the "full" level, so the syphoning should stop
when full?
thanks
elaine chiu
berkeley, CA
converted mitsubishi pickup
'76 citicar
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 1, 2006, at 9:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Don't know if this is for EVs:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7605277364
That appears to be a Curtis DC/DC converter for EVs.
<http://www.curtisinst.com/index.cfm?
fuseaction=cProducts.dspProductCategory&catID=16>
24v to 96v input, 375w output.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 4/1/06 9:47:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: CURRENT ELIMINATOR NEWS
Date: 4/1/06 9:47:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ricky Suiter)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
That's awsome Dennis! Those are some IMPRESSIVE reaction times. One of these
weeks I need to take a friday night off work and come watch you race. >>
** I will be racing for bucks and ADRA points april 8, 8 am at Speedworld in
Witman.With all the bugs worked out we should do well. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well my experience:
US8VGC 12000 miles
US8VGC-HC 14,000 miles but more acid leak
Trojan T875 16,000 miles
Trojan T890 Sold car at 14,000, expect I would have gotten at least 18K
Battery cost per mile, about the same across the board.
I would recommend either the US8VGC or the Trojans, depending on price.
Keep the batteries warm in the winter and cool in the summer will help.
You can have the US batteries shipped right to your door, a nice feature
(and still costs less than the Trojans)_
Lynn
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Bath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 9:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Best 8V battery and best place to purchase 18 of them
Tom, I don't know if you got a response to this post.
Generally speaking, Trojan 8V is on a par with USBattery.
With US Battery, you get a higher-up (Mr. Nawaz
Qreshi) lurking out to help us EVers, which is pretty cool!
-Trojan is more expensive, but give you more miles over lifetime--
deeper discharges (Lynn, is that about right?).
-US Battery will be cheaper per mile.
I'm going by memory here.
--- Tom Shjarback <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What is the best 8V battery out there? I believe Trojan makes three
> capacities and US Battery makes two capacities.
> Of course I lean toward the higher capacities, any reason
> not to? With what I know now I would go with the
> highest
> capacity US battery with the small L terminals.
> Comments??
>
> Also any reason not to go with the small L terminals?
>
> Where is the best deal to be had? Go local, or is there someone who
> will ship them and give a better price?
> And
> what has current pricing for 8V in bulk of 18 been recently?
>
> Thanks for any information in advance.
>
> Tom
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 2 Apr 2006 0:26, Lee Hart wrote:
No, he really was an engineer, and had worked on the inverter and motor
designs a lot. He was indeed an expert in the field of AC motor
control.
Unfortunately, he knew almost nothing about DC motor control.
<snip a lot>
Sounds like you have plenty of NIH in you, too. GM isn't the only EV
manufacturer that prefers AC over DC. Solectria, Ford, and Chrysler
went that route, and so has Toyota, in both full EV and hybrid
application.
GM may or may not have great engineers, but the organization clearly
dims great lights in most cases - else they wouldn't be in the state
they are in. Toyota, on the other hand, is quickly becoming the #1
manufacturer in the world, while selling and popularizing real world
(P)EV's that require no major compromises.
And they are not following your prescription to do it.
So I would say that your words on learning from experience and history
are good advice, just make sure to apply them in both directions.
(We've had the great AC v. DC argument before, btw. Edison, a great
engineer, lost it.)
John F. Norton
via T-Mobile Sidekick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I forgot to do "other comments:"
- Get single caps when you order, not "quick caps".
They don't contain the acid mist as well, so you do
more cleaning of battery tops!
- Buy L-terminals. More contact area, means less
resistance; less likelihood of a melted post caused by
a loose connection.
- Note Lynn's comments below. With the US GCHC, you
get like, 4 more pounds of active material or so per
battery (an extra 18 Ahrs of juice, basically, at the
20 hr rate). But so far, some (like myself) are not
too convinced it's worth the extra mess (less space
for acid in there); nor the extra cost.
peace,
--- "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well my experience:
>
> US8VGC 12000 miles
> US8VGC-HC 14,000 miles but more acid leak
> Trojan T875 16,000 miles
> Trojan T890 Sold car at 14,000, expect I would have
> gotten at least 18K
>
> Battery cost per mile, about the same across the
> board.
> I would recommend either the US8VGC or the Trojans,
> depending on price.
>
>
> Keep the batteries warm in the winter and cool in
> the summer will help.
>
> You can have the US batteries shipped right to your
> door, a nice feature
> (and still costs less than the Trojans)_
>
> Lynn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Bath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 9:40 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Best 8V battery and best place to
> purchase 18 of them
>
> Tom, I don't know if you got a response to this
> post.
> Generally speaking, Trojan 8V is on a par with
> USBattery.
> With US Battery, you get a higher-up (Mr. Nawaz
> Qreshi) lurking out to help us EVers, which is
> pretty cool!
> -Trojan is more expensive, but give you more miles
> over lifetime--
> deeper discharges (Lynn, is that about right?).
> -US Battery will be cheaper per mile.
> I'm going by memory here.
>
> --- Tom Shjarback <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > What is the best 8V battery out there? I believe
> Trojan makes three
> > capacities and US Battery makes two capacities.
> > Of course I lean toward the higher capacities,
> any reason
> > not to? With what I know now I would go with the
> > highest
> > capacity US battery with the small L terminals.
> > Comments??
> >
> > Also any reason not to go with the small L
> terminals?
> >
> > Where is the best deal to be had? Go local, or is
> there someone who
> > will ship them and give a better price?
> > And
> > what has current pricing for 8V in bulk of 18 been
> recently?
> >
> > Thanks for any information in advance.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
>
>
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD
> available)!
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came
> out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 21:47:53 -0800, you wrote:
><<<Some DC:DC units often used for hobbyist EVs are really just switching power
>supplies or simple battery chargers that happen to work on DC inputs. These
>have their proponents (mostly because they are relatively low in cost).
>However, the ones shown above are explicitly designed for EVs.>>>
>
>Don't know if this is for EVs:
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7605277364
Put in a bid for it!
Matt Milliron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
1981 Jet Electrica, Ford Escort
My daughter named it, "Pikachu".
It's yellow and black, electric and
contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
http://evalbum.com/702.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have had good luck with AquaPro (http://www.aquapro.net/index.html).
They're not cheap, so I got only enough filler caps to equip the
cells that are most difficult to reach (12 cells). 60 or 80 cells
would run into some money. I would love to equip all my 48 cells
someday.
I used the email link for North America on AquaPro's Contact page and
received a reply from a very helpful representative, who advised me on
what exactly to order for my particular batteries. He answered all my
questions very completely. There are several options for filler
tanks, and a hand pump that is not shown on the web site. I got a
gravity feed water tank that I hoist up by a pulley for filling. I
was concerned about exposing the caps to freezing temperature, but the
rep. assured me that it would not be a problem when used correctly.
I don't have an extensive track record to report, but the system seems
to have been functioning very well in the few months I've been using
it. They appear to be quality products, exactly as advertised. The
system came with excellent instructions that helped make for smooth
installation. I'm quite pleased.
Regards,
Constance in NC
Grinning since September '05
On 4/2/06, elaine chiu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> what experiences are there with flow-rite, aquapro, hydrocaps or
> water miser caps?
>
> I plan to have either 20 x 6v or 20 x 8v flooded, mostly under the
> truck bed, and I would like to make the watering as easy as possible.
> (my bad back makes water refills harder and harder...)
>
> I did search the archives, but wondered if anyone had piped together
> a flow-rite system or something comparable recently.
>
> also, is there a place to get a suitable float valve that would
> work? the systems look pretty pricey once I buy 60 or 80 valves.
> all the float valves that I have found so far are too big to fit in a
> battery cell. any way to use drip watering and get it to stop when
> the cell is full? how about a syphon system with water tank level at
> the "full" level, so the syphoning should stop when full?
>
> thanks
>
> elaine chiu
> berkeley, CA
>
> converted mitsubishi pickup
> '76 citicar
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Would someone few minutes and explain why you
have to weaken the field strength of a high-torque
motor to get higher RPMs?
Also, from what I understand so far (mabye I
am wrong), but it seems like you achieve no
gain in power (because you lose torque), but
for example in Wayland's configs, his motor
is setup with very small airgaps to get his
Datsun off the starting line very quickly, and
then he has to make a tradeoff at the end of
his run by weakening his field strength (don't
know what this really does), but for some reason,
(does it minimize the reluctance???) and allow
for the amature to turn faster with less magnetic
reluctance???
Thanks!
Joel
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--- Begin Message ---
I can add my vote for the AquaPro system if only for the extremely
generous help from the folks at Rover & Rover. I never ended up buying
these caps, because I finally decided against the batteries I was going to
use them on (the BB600 nicads). The existing product is not directly
compatible with the nicad's KOH electrolyte since it's made from
polycarbonate, but they said they'd be willing to try manufacturing them
from ABS using the same molds and that it'd be compatible with their
ultrasonic welding process. They were clearly willing to go out of their
way to help me out.
Their products are very expensive, no doubt. But I think the design is
really well-done, and the wide range of delivery pressure, potentially
high flow rate, and solid shut-off seems really impressive. If you had
the coin to outfit your entire pack with these, hooking up to water would
literally be something you could do as often as you like. Click, wait,
click.
--chris
On Sun, April 2, 2006 5:47 pm, The Grinster said:
> I have had good luck with AquaPro (http://www.aquapro.net/index.html).
> They're not cheap, so I got only enough filler caps to equip the
> cells that are most difficult to reach (12 cells). 60 or 80 cells
> would run into some money. I would love to equip all my 48 cells
> someday.
>
> I used the email link for North America on AquaPro's Contact page and
> received a reply from a very helpful representative, who advised me on
> what exactly to order for my particular batteries. He answered all my
> questions very completely. There are several options for filler
> tanks, and a hand pump that is not shown on the web site. I got a
> gravity feed water tank that I hoist up by a pulley for filling. I
> was concerned about exposing the caps to freezing temperature, but the
> rep. assured me that it would not be a problem when used correctly.
>
> I don't have an extensive track record to report, but the system seems
> to have been functioning very well in the few months I've been using
> it. They appear to be quality products, exactly as advertised. The
> system came with excellent instructions that helped make for smooth
> installation. I'm quite pleased.
>
> Regards,
> Constance in NC
> Grinning since September '05
>
>
> On 4/2/06, elaine chiu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> what experiences are there with flow-rite, aquapro, hydrocaps or
>> water miser caps?
>>
>> I plan to have either 20 x 6v or 20 x 8v flooded, mostly under the
>> truck bed, and I would like to make the watering as easy as possible.
>> (my bad back makes water refills harder and harder...)
>>
>> I did search the archives, but wondered if anyone had piped together
>> a flow-rite system or something comparable recently.
>>
>> also, is there a place to get a suitable float valve that would
>> work? the systems look pretty pricey once I buy 60 or 80 valves.
>> all the float valves that I have found so far are too big to fit in a
>> battery cell. any way to use drip watering and get it to stop when
>> the cell is full? how about a syphon system with water tank level at
>> the "full" level, so the syphoning should stop when full?
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> elaine chiu
>> berkeley, CA
>>
>> converted mitsubishi pickup
>> '76 citicar
>>
>>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello to Steve and All,
Steve wrote:
Books and internet research are one thing, but the experience of
this list (plus my experience with 3 EVs) is priceless. I want you to have an idea
what I was trying to accomplish, budget, and my performance expectations.
Also, I want to tell you what I am basing my calculations on. Then, we can have
an informed discussion.
I agree with your take about the cumulative knowledge that's available
here on the EVDL, and I like the clarity you've laid out.
First, what I am trying to do (design inputs)
1) Small, light weight commuter car. Note, around here, a commuter car goes
45 - 50 MPH for 10 miles back and forth to work each way. Why? Smaller,
lighter, etc. means more efficiency, less batteries, less weight to lug around,
better handling, easier to fabricate, lower cost to build and maintain.
2) A 20 mile usable range, 365 days a year, rain or shine, hot or cold. It
gets down to the mid 20’s here and as high as the high 90’s. Of course, for
my calculations, the mid 20’s yield the worst case range. I don’t want to
kill the batteries, so I was planning on a 70% DOD max (nominal on the coldest
day, 80% DOD absolute worst case on the coldest day if I have to make an extra
stop on the way home).
The answer here is pretty simple, and it's a tried and proven concept
when talking about available, affordable lead acid
batteries. To get the range you've outlined with the 70% max depth of
discharge, you need to follow this formula....when your EV is finished,
the battery pack should be 1/3 the total weight of the vehicle. In other
words, if the completed car weighs 3000 lbs. with the battery pack, then
the pack should be 1000 lbs. To get your Festiva to fit this
prescription, it would have to weigh around 1900-2000 lbs. stock,. The
added electric motor, brackets, charger, and cables would pretty much
equal the weight of the gas engine, exhaust system, gas tank, etc. you
remove, so you're still looking at around 1900-2000 lbs. Now you can
clearly see that you need about 1000 lbs. of batteries to get that 1/3
battery weight target.
- 84 V pack - flooded lead acid - 6 V batteries (T125’s)
Perfect. 14 X ~ 75 lbs. = 1050 lbs. of batteries. This pack would be far
cheaper than any 1000 lbs. of AGM type lead acid, and if you can keep
average cruise currents low, the higher ahr of the flooded batteries
will go a long ways towards best range per charge. However, at just 84
volts and a safe max discharge current for these flooded type 6 volters
of about 500 amps, you're never going to get the other goal you've
outlined here:
I want GOOD ACCELERATION! Better than the ICE version (which was very
slow).
At least as good as my Toyota Corolla with 1.8 L, 4 cylinder engine. I'm
not asking for a drag car, but I need to keep up with the hectic traffic
here in
Atlanta. If it can't do that, I'm not wasting my time or money.
Pulling the 500 amps max. safe current from your 6V flooded batteries
will cause the not-too-stiff 84V (nominal) pack of flooded batteries to
sag down to around 65 volts. 65V X 500 amps = 32.5kw, or about 33 hp.
Just 33 horsepower to move a 3000 lb. car, should make it pretty obvious
this low of a voltage at 500 amps is not by any stretch of one's
imagination, going to give 'good acceleration'. In fact, even if you
doubled the amount to 66 hp, it still would only be 'OK' acceleration in
a 1.5 ton vehicle. Maybe now, you can see why most everyone else these
days, run at least 144V. At 144V and using low-sag AGM types 12V
batteries, 1000 lbs. of them would only sag to maybe 125V at 1000 amps
to give 125kw, or about 130 hp.
Back to your requirements of low cost though.....you 'could' still get
by with the inexpensive 84V pack of golf car batteries and get 'OK' 0-40
mph acceleration, by spending a bit on the controller and dissing the
old tech restrictive SCR controller...read this, get a Z1K Zilla. With
this compact controller, you could dial-in 1000 motor amps and still
keep the max. battery amps to 500. The controller will be able to boost
the motor up to 1000 amps while its voltage goes from 0 - 40 volts as it
revs up. After that, the motor amps would fall to keep the max.
programmed battery amps at 500. This set up though, would protect the
flooded batteries from over-current while still giving your 3000 lb.
Festiva very decent low speed traffic type acceleration, probably not as
quick as the 1800cc Corolla in the 0-40 sprint, but not too far behind.
From 40-60 mph things would definitely be tame, but probably acceptable
for your needs. This is beginning to look similar to your 'option #4'.
To reduce costs in option #4, you could find a used EV motor, I would
think for $300-$400 dollars if you looked hard enough and put out enough
feelers. You could certainly find a 48V forklift traction motor for a
few hundred bucks, and with simple timing adjustments, it would work
very well. You could also build a basic charger with a timer shut-off
for maybe $200.
My money would be on the 84V pack, the Zilla Z1K controller, a basic
charger, and a used forklift or smaller EV motor. You'd end up with an
affordable EV that has pretty good off-line acceleration, 'OK' 40-50 mph
performance, and sluggish 50-65 mph performance. You also end up with an
EV with a 30-45 mile range, depending on temperature and other
conditions. I agree, keep the clutch.
Just my two cents worth....
See Ya......John Wayland
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--- Begin Message ---
I heard a while back on this list that one of
the most helpful skills in doing a conversion
was to have metalshop experience, but it is
unfortunate that most of those doing their own
conversions are more of an EE/physics background
and did not gain the metalshop experience.
I fall into that category, and as I dream about
my future conversion opportunities, I am really
worried as to how one goes around this hurdle.
Does one take a welding class? Does one make
friends with the local body shop owner? Does
one get auto-cad out and hunker down and pay
the body shop to do all the work for him?
Just scratchin' my head here.
Thanks,
Joel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found out that I had a friend whose husband did welding, which I would
have never known. He ended up doing the welding for me in exchange for
treating him and his wife to a nice dinner out. Ask around, and maybe
you'll find someone close than you would have guessed, too.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joel Hacker
Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 4:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Conversions by those without metalshop experience
I heard a while back on this list that one of
the most helpful skills in doing a conversion
was to have metalshop experience, but it is
unfortunate that most of those doing their own
conversions are more of an EE/physics background
and did not gain the metalshop experience.
I fall into that category, and as I dream about
my future conversion opportunities, I am really
worried as to how one goes around this hurdle.
Does one take a welding class? Does one make
friends with the local body shop owner? Does
one get auto-cad out and hunker down and pay
the body shop to do all the work for him?
Just scratchin' my head here.
Thanks,
Joel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two words: junior college!
Ie, team up with the department. Have them adopt you
as a project. You get the racks done for the cost of
materials, and they get the "how" and "why" problem
solving, plus knowledge about EVs.
Have powerpoint demo ready to GO!
I utilized a HS senior, who needed to do a project.
It took by far the longest of any aspect of the
conversion. (How much could _you_ get done in 45 mins.
per day?) He did a SUPER job. I helped on his
writeup and problem solving.
Hope that helps!
--- Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I found out that I had a friend whose husband did
> welding, which I would
> have never known. He ended up doing the welding for
> me in exchange for
> treating him and his wife to a nice dinner out. Ask
> around, and maybe
> you'll find someone close than you would have
> guessed, too.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Joel Hacker
> Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 4:22 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Conversions by those without metalshop
> experience
>
> I heard a while back on this list that one of
> the most helpful skills in doing a conversion
> was to have metalshop experience, but it is
> unfortunate that most of those doing their own
> conversions are more of an EE/physics background
> and did not gain the metalshop experience.
>
> I fall into that category, and as I dream about
> my future conversion opportunities, I am really
> worried as to how one goes around this hurdle.
>
> Does one take a welding class? Does one make
> friends with the local body shop owner? Does
> one get auto-cad out and hunker down and pay
> the body shop to do all the work for him?
>
> Just scratchin' my head here.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joel
>
>
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, this guy has almost 1,000 negative feedbacks _in
the past month!_
--- Matt Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 21:47:53 -0800, you wrote:
>
> ><<<Some DC:DC units often used for hobbyist EVs are
> really just switching power
> >supplies or simple battery chargers that happen to
> work on DC inputs. These
> >have their proponents (mostly because they are
> relatively low in cost).
> >However, the ones shown above are explicitly
> designed for EVs.>>>
> >
> >Don't know if this is for EVs:
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7605277364
>
>
> Put in a bid for it!
> Matt Milliron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 1981 Jet Electrica, Ford Escort
> My daughter named it, "Pikachu".
> It's yellow and black, electric and
> contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
> http://evalbum.com/702.html
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
