EV Digest 5321
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Taking the plunge (buying my first EV)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery Pack Heating
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Multi charger.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: '74 MG electric on eBay
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Ampabout ... Im the BMS
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Multi charger.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Battery Pack Heating
by "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: identifying mystery forklift motors
by Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery Pack Heating
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Multi charger.
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Need help about sepex Motor and alltrax DCX please
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Battery Pack Heating - Optima Hawker links
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Battery technology: EVLN(EVs: because it makes sense to do so)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Multi charger.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: '74 MG electric on eBay
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: internal resistance:EV digest 5306
by "Mark Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: How many amps driving my EV?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Thanks for all the insight on my project
by Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 2:46 AM
Subject: Re: Taking the plunge (buying my first EV)
>
> On Apr 4, 2006, at 11:54 AM, Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> > I think I still have some of that 33 cent gas in one of my
> > cars.
>
> You mean "varnish", right? <G>
> (sorry, I don't remember 33 cent gas)
> I do, but it was a Loooong time ago, with 15 cent subway fares ,ten bux
on the Pennsy from NYC to DC, GG-1 powered, nickel fone calls in REAL phone
booths, with the little folding doors,you COULD get out of the rain.5cents a
kwh 'lectricity. 400 dollar B and W TV's 10 inch screen,Philco's when they
first came out, and "Still under 2k" VW Beetles!
My many years worth<g>!
Bob
> Paul G.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> The pack is 2 Optimas tall by 14 by Optimas long. It sits in a box.
> There is a some 1/8" insualtion on the inside and the outside of the
> box.
Ok; that's not much insulation. It's like heating a home with no
insulation; it takes far more energy. You can still do it if you don't
mind the cost of energy.
> Plus the exterior of the box is inside the car.
That helps if the car is in the sun. But car bodies have negligible
insulation, too.
> So 60w can bring the whole pack from 70f to 100f?
> In how much time and at what ambient?
Yes; I had measured 30 deg.F to 60 deg.F this last winter. It takes 2-3
days.
> How much is the total weight of your pack Lee?
Two packs of six 63 lb batteries each, i.e. 120 watts for 756 lbs of
batteries.
I think a key point is that the *weight* of the batteries is
unimportant; all that matters is the thermal resistance (insulation) of
the box they are in. It wouldn't make any difference whether the battery
box was empty or full; all that matters is the surface area and
insulation of the walls. An empty box would heat up much faster, but
takes the same number of watts to maintain temperature.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: Multi charger.
> In a message dated 4/4/06 11:00:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> >>
> Rich do not forget I also use modular chargers,Thats why I got 375 cycles
on
> the Inspira battery while others were getting 10-20 cycles. Dennis Berube
>
I clearly said there were exceptions.
Your Race car application...is a little off the topic of On road daily
drivers that need to be qiuck charged.
You can 't get those cards any more, and ... the general public would have
to spend a fortune to get those cards from you and then set them up.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not one bid on the electric MG.It's a beautiful little car and I'd
certainly have considered it if it were less. Does anyone know if it's
going to be resubmitted?
-Mike
On 3/27/06, Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There is a cute little 1974 MG Midget electric car on eBay, in Chester
> CT, item #4625885016.
>
> Was this one of Jack Gretta's prizes? Although located close to me, I
> don't really have the money right now... I hope someone does to give it
> a nice loving home!
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4625885016
>
> 72 volts of flooded PbAs, 7.2 HP GE motor, doesn't say what controller
> (anyone know?).
>
> hmmmmm... if I sell the Solectria Force and get the MG and soup it up
> with a bigger controller/motor/AGMs.... 2500 pounds is a light car....
> droooooolllllll.... though might not be practical in the winter and bad
> weather..... hmmmmmmmm......
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1997 Solectria Force
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "bruce parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: Ampabout ... Im the BMS
As far as I know PFC chargers do not have a temperature sensor
input so that it could do these adjustments to pack temperature
changes. Its seems I will have to chase the finishing voltage
setting to try to keep my pack fully charged. With the weather
constantly changing, it would be nice to have this feature. Sort of
like a Battery Management System for my pack. For now, I am the
BMS.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
Bruce and listers..
Really effetive temp compensation would be nice. The Temp comp circuits
on the Mk2b Rudman reagualtors do this to some extent. Not wholly acceptable
to everyone for sure.
To do Temperture compensation on a lead Acid Flooded pack right.. you need
to know the pack temp to about a 5 degree F accuracy. This has to be the
average.. If you have far flung battery packs or wildly varing enviroments
in your battery pack.. then you will need a Lot more temperature data
points. This gets to be a nightmare unless you are ready to wire sensors
into the small places that matter.
Also the Temperture compensation curves vary depending on the Age of the
Battery. So.. micro adjusting the compensation value... Also needs to know a
few more things about the battery that just temperture.
Yea I hear the need, But few are willing to support the added cost and
complexity of such a system.
Most folks on this list scream when I charge $45 for a Analog Reg and Run
for the hills when I propose a $75 dollar digital Reg that actually has 1
Degre of temp accuracy on it.
Clearly the Mk3 digi Regs Have the temperture sensors and Micro code and
communications needed to accuratley impliment a Temperture compensated
Charge curve.
The Brick to build the wall has been made.
What now needs to written is control code to read the Regs and then adjust
the setting on the Charger to get the effect that is required.
Read local temp
Adjust the reg's voltage point
Add a couple volts to the main charger's peak voltage setting.
Yes that is being worked on.
Your System has no Regs at all... There is now way for the charge to know
about what is hot and what is not.
I can see adding a Reg that just measures battery temp, and provides the
offsets that are needed to keep the system in step with the seasons.
This Reg would also provide for charger shut off should a thermal run away
event happen.
I expect that this control loop will be available some time this year.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Umm Victor
You keep saying you don't need fast charging
I keep getting large checks to make Hyper fast industrial level chargers.
Clearly my order book and your point of View don't agree.
My folks don't want to wait.. it costs them money to have equipment not in
operation.
And I have spent way too much of the last 14 years of my life waiting for My
EVs to charge.
Now I don't have to.
Clearly if you have all night to charge your EV.. then you don't need 10s
of Kw worth of charge path.
When we have 100 mile ranges and can store 20, to 40 Kw of power in our
EVs... the over night thing gets back to Getting the job done with the
least power available. 40 Kwhr in 8 hours is still 5Kw into the pack.
Our EV industry didn't have affordable PFC charger that could make more than
a couple of Kw before I got here.
What I see is much more Stored power... and Range, Powers of magnitude from
what a 1000 lbs of lead can store. This makes Evs much more useable to the
public, And then they want them charges over night for a 100 to 300 mile
range in the morning... this IS going to take some serious levels of
recahrge.
I suppose if you drive 5 miles a day at 45 mph... you could survive with
only 2400 watts over night.
I get 4 or 5 runs in a day even with a paltry 15 mile range... I have a
usefull EV.
So... there are solid reasons for chargers that draw more than a hair dryer
can....
And folks are still paying for them.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: Multi charger.
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > In Short.. I don't buy the small modular chargers. I think they are not
> > suited to our uses.
>
> Whose "our"?
>
> > They certainly don't support the fast charge times I
> > require.
>
> I personally don't require fast charging. I know I know,
> "most" of paying customers may require fast charging and you
> do what most want, so you require the same.
>
> For some who can run all day long without need for opportunity
> charging and have all night for normal (~5kW) charging fast
> charging buys only more idle time - the car is done quicker but
> I can't take advantage of it because it's done at 2am instead of
> say 7am. So why pay for monster charger?
>
> But I agree, most people don't have luxury of driving EV
> without worrying of nearest outlet, so need to be able to
> fill in as quick as possible, perhaps few times a day.
>
> > My money goes into the power Stage....not the Zillion little control
> > circuits that have to work right every time.
>
> Understand. Why it *might* not make sense at home I explained.
> AS far as opportunity, *normally* you'd have someone else's
> 120V outlet with 20A breaker, so 2.4kW (as long as nothing else
> on the same circuit, else even less). How you're going to take
> advantage of 20kW charging power of the charger if there is no
> opportunity mains available? (*usually* and for *most*...
> we've has this discussion before).
>
> My point is it makes sense to pay only for as much power
> as you need in the charging time available
> for whole day driving. Paying for more power is a waste
> of money (OEM customers aside). Not saying you do something
> wrong, just trying to present different point of view.
>
> Victor
>
>
> --
> Best Regards,
>
> Victor Tikhonov
> President and CEO
> Metric Mind Corporation
> http://www.metricmind.com
> 10645 SE Malden Street
> Portland OR 97266-8028 USA
> 503-680-0026 ph
> 503-774-4779 fx
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you can´t find any nearer... a finnish company (in Europe) makes
thin (0,2 mm) heating elements:
http://www.taipaleautomotive.com/auto/products.html
Osmo
5.4.2006 kello 19:27, Mike Phillips kirjoitti:
The pack is 2 Optimas tall by 14 by Optimas long. It sits in a box.
There is a some 1/8" insualtion on the inside and the outside of the
box. Plus the exterior of the box is inside the car. The controller
blinks on every 2 seconds or so. About a constant 50% duty cycle when
running. After 40c is shuts off until it hits 30c. There is also a
thermostatically controlled fan for cooling if it needs it. The heater
is powered from pack voltage of 336v nominal, drawing 1.6 amps.
So 60w can bring the whole pack from 70f to 100f? In how much time and
at what ambient?
How much is the total weight of your pack Lee?
I would love it if 60w could keep my pack warm. I'm in San Jose, Ca so
I don't need as much heat as most areas.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mike Phillips wrote:
I need suggestions for a heating system for my pack... The only car
I know that has a heated pack runs about 500-600 watts for the
1200lb pack. So that's about 2 lbs per watt. It takes most of 25
hours to get the pack to the 30c-40c range. The system can hold it
there with ease. It's usually heating during charging, but can be
turned on any time.
500+ watts is far too much; if he needed this much power, he must have
had little or no insulation. This is a waste of power.
I have 1/2" to 1" of styrafoam insulation in my battery boxes. I
bought
two battery heating pads from J.C. Whitney. Each claims to produce 75w
of heat, but actually measures 60w. I disassembled them, and glued the
heating wire to two 23" square aluminum sheets. One sheet went into
the
bottom of each of my two battery boxes. Just this 60w of heat is
enough
to raise the battery temperatures 30 deg.F.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi Jim -
Have you ohm'd the motors yet hows the insulation? Do you get any
continuity between the frame and the terminal??
ok, now we're getting in a bit over my head. I haven't tested these
motors in any way as of yet (if you don't count driving the forklift
around on my driveway before yanking them out), though i assume by your
question that there should be no continuity between the motor casing and
the field terminal? Sounds like an easy enough task.
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a formula you can used to calculated the heat loss:
Btur = SF x u x TD
Btur = British Thrmo Units Per Hour
SF = Square Foot of the exterial surfaces to the ambient air
TD = Temperature Difference between the inside surface you
what to heat to the temperature of the outside ambient air.
u = The u-factor or equals to 1/R-factor.
For Example:
My battery boxes square area is 50 sq.ft. of exterial area
including top, bottom and sides.
The temperature I want to maintain inside the battery box
at 70 F. degrees at -30 F. degrees ambiamt or a 100 degrees
Temperature Difference (TD)
If I am using 2 inch polysterene Dow Corning Blue foam, it
is rated at 10 R-Factor or u-factor = 1/10= 0.1 u.
Then:
Btur = 50 sf x .1 u x 100 TD = 500 Btu's per hour lost at 30 below.
This is about 50 btu's per 10 degrees drop in temperature or:
70 degrees = 0 Btur's loss
60 = 50 = 14.6 watts of heating
50 = 100 and etc. = 29.2 watts of heating
At 30 F. below, I would require 500 Btur just to maintain a enclosure
temperature of 70 degrees
If 3410 btur equals 1000 watts then 500 btu's = 146 watts of heating for 30
below.
If the insulation is only 1/2 of the above 2 inch than the heat lost will
double. At 1/4, then the heat lost will be 4 times as much.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Battery Pack Heating
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> > The pack is 2 Optimas tall by 14 by Optimas long. It sits in a box.
> > There is a some 1/8" insualtion on the inside and the outside of the
> > box.
>
> Ok; that's not much insulation. It's like heating a home with no
> insulation; it takes far more energy. You can still do it if you don't
> mind the cost of energy.
>
> > Plus the exterior of the box is inside the car.
>
> That helps if the car is in the sun. But car bodies have negligible
> insulation, too.
>
> > So 60w can bring the whole pack from 70f to 100f?
> > In how much time and at what ambient?
>
> Yes; I had measured 30 deg.F to 60 deg.F this last winter. It takes 2-3
> days.
>
> > How much is the total weight of your pack Lee?
>
> Two packs of six 63 lb batteries each, i.e. 120 watts for 756 lbs of
> batteries.
>
> I think a key point is that the *weight* of the batteries is
> unimportant; all that matters is the thermal resistance (insulation) of
> the box they are in. It wouldn't make any difference whether the battery
> box was empty or full; all that matters is the surface area and
> insulation of the walls. An empty box would heat up much faster, but
> takes the same number of watts to maintain temperature.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I keep getting large checks to make Hyper fast industrial level chargers.
Clearly my order book and your point of View don't agree. My folks don't want
to wait.. it costs them money to have equipment not in operation.
RIch,
What sorts of applications are clients requesting these for?
Mark
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You forget to talk about first >100km/h car which was electric and French
development both at same time, named "la jamais contente"
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.culture.gouv.fr%2Fculture%2Factualites%2Fcelebrations%2Fjenatzy.htm&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools
opening some kind of pandora's box for white Zombie and others ;^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: Need help about sepex Motor and alltrax DCX please
> Phillipe,
>
> I hope that we see more contributions from your side of the pond. We owe
> much to Gaston *Plante*.
>
> (In 1859, in France, Plante developed the first practical rechargeable
> battery.)
>
> cordialment,
> jcwinnie
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is the link for the Optimas.
http://www.optimabatteries.com/publish/optima/americas0/en/config/product_info/automotive/deep_cycle/technical_specs.html
Here is the link for the Hawker brochure download. Page 4, 6 are
noteworthy.
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/documents/US-GPL-AM-002_0605.pdf
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Cameron (New Beetle EV)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 9:43 AM
> Subject: Re: Battery Pack Heating
>
>
> > WOW!
> >
> > Can you post the link for these temp recommendations? I am very
> > interested in
> > the Hawker and Optima recommendations.
> >
> >
> >
> > Victoria, BC, Canada
> >
> > See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> > www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
> >
> >
> >
> > Quoting Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > > Here are some VRLA manufacturer's temperature maximums for
cyclic use.
> > >
> > > BB Battery 35c
> > > Optima 51.7c (AC Propulsion keeps them at 30c-40c)
> > > Hawker Genesis 45c
> > >
> > > All of the graphs that I see show that the voltage needs to be
> > > controlled at higher temps or it can hurt a battery. I can do this
> > > with clampers.
> > >
> > > Roland: Were the burn marks on the battery or on the round
cable? Were
> > > these 5 watts/foot that you tried?
>
> This was on the cable, I don't remember what the watts/foot was,
this was
> over 20 years ago. Roland
> > >
> > > Michaela: Using a thermostat is a good idea.
> > >
> > > Here in San Jose there are almost no heaters to speak of as I ran
> > > around yesterday and looked all over town. So if you guys have some
> > > URL's to share, that would be helpful.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ralph Merwin <ev@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Mike,
> > > >
> > > > I'm using thin stick-on heaters that Metric Mind used to
carry. I
> > > > have
> > > > one on the bottom of each battery, 26 in all. The heaters are
rated
> > > > for 12v/36w each, but I run them in 13 sets of two heaters in
series,
> > > > so they're putting out about 9 watts each. My heater
controller is
> > > > set
> > > > for about 78 degrees F (about 26 C), with the temperature
sensor on
> > > > the
> > > > bottom of the middle battery in each box. The boxes are
insulated on
> > > > the bottom with rigid foam wall insulation (about 1/2" thick)
and on
> > > > all
> > > > sides and the top with 1/2" expanded polyethylene.
> > > >
> > > > It takes a couple of days for the batteries to come up to
temp, but I
> > > > leave the heater controllers on all the time.
> > > >
> > > > Dave Cloud uses 'garden bed heater wire'. You can buy these in
> > > pre-built
> > > > lengths with temperature sensor. Just plug them into a standard
> > > > 120vac
> > > > outlet. You can put them under your batteries by cutting
channels
> > > > into
> > > > sheets of insulation that the batteries rest on.
> > > >
> > > > Al Godfrey in Vancouver, BC uses battery heating blankets from JC
> > > Whitney.
> > > > These are interesting because they also have insulation.
> > > >
> > > > I think you should lower your temperature target. 40C is too hot.
> > > >
> > > > Ralph
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Mike Phillips writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > I need suggestions for a heating system for my pack. I would
like to
> > > > > use the orange silicone sheets, but they are hard to find in any
> > > length
> > > > > and are pricey. There are these home gutter or pipe heating
cables
> > > that
> > > > > look good. They are around 5 watts per foot in 120vac or 240vac
> > > > > versions.
> > > > >
> > > > > The only car I know that has a heated pack runs about 500-600
> > > watts for
> > > > > the 1200lb pack. So that's about 2 lbs per watt. It takes
most of 25
> > > > > hours to get the pack to the 30c-40c range. The system can
hold it
> > > > > there with ease. It's usually heating during charging, but
can be
> > > > > turned on any time.
> > > > >
> > > > > So I need ideas for how to heat this pack, and where to get the
> > > > > materials.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > > > > The misfits.
> > > > > The rebels.
> > > > > The troublemakers.
> > > > > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > > > > The ones who see things differently
> > > > > The ones that change the world!!
> > > > >
> > > > > www.RotorDesign.com
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------
> > This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>The one which really caught my eye was a totally new substance to
>store energy. They could make one gram of this substance store as
>much energy as we now store in well over 400 grams of battery.
Think about it - store more than 10x current range of your entire
pack in the size of only 1 of your batteries.
Hmmm - doubt that we'd have samples anytime soon, but this is the
type of breakthrough that will allow EVs to make the next step...
Hope it can be recharged fast.
"Sir, do you want the gas option on your new vehicle or do you
prefer to avoid that messy fillup stuff?"
"Your new car comes with a standard 600 miles range, are you
interested in the 300 miles additional upgrade, or in the EEE
membership, which allows you to call the recharge truck for free
if you find yourself stranded in the middle of the desert and
you cannot reach a plug-in station on your spare charge?"
Happy dreaming,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of bruce parmenter
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 4:11 PM
To: evlist
Subject: EVLN(EVs: because it makes sense to do so)
EVLN(EVs: because it makes sense to do so)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://news.goldseek.com/MillenniumWaveAdvisors/1143388920.php
The Bottomless Well By: John Mauldin, Millennium Wave Advisors
A Quad Here, A Quad There [...]
Venture Capital and Writers
Today we begin what will be an intermittent series on oil and
energy. Each and every year there is a need for more and more
energy of all kinds. [...] Will we run out of energy?
Quick answer: no. But that implies a shift in how we currently
produce and use energy.
[... We] will see just as radical a transformation of our energy
use. We will see the car become an electric car. Not because we
are running out of oil, but because it makes sense to do so. And
by becoming more efficient, the paradox is that we will use more
energy, not less! The car "engine" will become an electric
generator. Initially it will probably be some form of internal
combustion or diesel engine, but over time that will change.
Let's look at a few paragraphs from The Bottomless Well:
"Electricity is also taking over the power train in
transportation - not the engine itself, but the system that moves
power throughout the car. Diesel-electric locomotives and many of
the monster trucks used in mining have already made the leap to
electric drive trains; the oil fired combustion engine is still
there, but now it's just an on-board electric generator that
propels nothing but electrons. The transition to the hybrid
electric car will be completed over the next two decades as well.
During this same period, electric power trains will supersede
steel shafts, belts, pulleys, and hydraulic systems in
factories....
"Silicon-controlled electric actuators are now set to displace
the steel camshaft on every valved engine. Put each valve under
precise, direct, digital-electric control, actuated independently
by its own compact electric motor - open and close each valve as
dictated by current engine temperature, terrain, load, and
countless other variables - and in effect, you continuously
retune the engine for peak performance. Belts, shafts, and chains
melt away. Everything shrinks, everything gets lighter, and every
aspect of performance improves - dramatically.
"The last step in this evolution will be the largest: silicon and
electric power will knock out the entire gear box, drive shaft,
differential, and related hardware - all of which disappear when
direct electric drives end up turning the wheels. .... power
chips now make it possible to build high-power motors the size of
a coffee can, and prices are dropping fast.
"When such motors finally begin driving the wheels, the entire
output of the engine - anywhere from 20 kW to 100kW as measured
now in standard electrical units of power - will have to be
converted immediately into electricity before it is distributed,
used, or stored throughout the car. It will take heavy-duty
wiring and substantial silicon drives and electric motors to
propel a hybrid-electric SUV down a highway at 70 mph - but
they'll be far smaller than steel structures in today's power
train. Cars will shed many hundreds of pounds, and every key
aspect of performance will improve considerably.
"A far-fetched scenario? General Electric's 6,000 horsepower
diesel-electric AC6000CW locomotive is powered by an enormous
diesel-fueled engine-driven generator; everything beyond is
electric. Komatsu's 930E- a monster mining truck with 300 ton
capacity - is propelled by a megawatt (MW) Detroit
diesel-electric generator. Everything else, right down to the 12
foot-wheels, is driven electrically. All-electric drives already
control fighter jets and submarines. The surface ships now on the
Navy's drawing boards are all-electric, from the propeller to the
guns."
Electric motors are getting smaller and more powerful with each
passing year. This will happen sooner than most realize. When you
car is powered by a fully electric power train, the car will look
like one big moving electrical appliance. Huber and Mills wrote:
"Given where battery technology is today, this appliance won't be
able to run any great distances on batteries alone, but it will
nevertheless have to have a substantial battery pack on board to
provide surges of current when needed. This creates, from the
get-go, the possibility of at least some opportunistic
'refueling' of the car from the [electric power] grid..." We plug
our car in at nights and at work, using cheaper grid power.
But current battery technology is not what will be in place in 10
or 20 years. The ever elusive fuel cell is becoming more and more
of a reality. Other new technologies are still in the labs.
While I cannot talk in detail, two weeks ago I was in a major
university research center with a well known venture capital fund
manager, who politely invited me to sit in with him as this
university's researchers described some of their latest gee-whiz
discoveries.
The one which really caught my eye was a totally new substance to
store energy. They could make one gram of this substance store as
much energy as we now store in well over 400 grams of battery. Of
course, this was in a lab, with no real production. There will be
lots of problems and issues to overcome. But it is now a chemical
engineering problem and not a theoretical problem. Engineering is
something we're good at. Some company (or companies) will figure
out how to exploit this and bring it to the marketplace. Or maybe
improve the concept!
Whether it is this technology or any of dozens being worked on in
labs all over the world, battery technology and the application
of power for transportation is going to be different in 2027 (not
to mention 2017!) than it is today.
[...]
Note: John Mauldin is president of Millennium Wave Advisors, LLC,
(MWA) a registered investment advisor. [...]
John Mauldin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Copyright 2006 John Mauldin. All Rights Reserved
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Umm Victor
>
> You keep saying you don't need fast charging
>
> I keep getting large checks to make Hyper fast industrial
> level chargers.
Apples and oranges, Rich: don't confuse personal and industrial users
and their needs.
Victor has a very good and valid point. Many of the people for whom EVs
presently make the most sense live in urban settings, which often means
apartments and/or condos. It is the unfortunate reality that these
people cannot each get dedicated 240V 50A outlets installed for their
use, no matter how much they are willing to spend (the service to the
building must be upgraded to support more than a few dedicated charge
outlets). Those homeowners with 240V 50A outlets available for their
charger, or able to have one installed are the exception rather than the
rule.
If we figure 8-12hrs to charge overnight, and 250Wh/mi, then:
- with a 15A 120V outlet (1500W to the batteries): 48-72mi daily range
without any charging during the day.
- with a 50A 240V outlet (10kW to the batteries): 320mi-480mi daily
range without any charging during the day.
The range estimates are ballparks, since in most cases the full charge
power can't be maintained throughout the entire charge, and charge
efficiency is less than 100%, but the general idea is valid. 8-12hrs of
overnight charge with a 15A 120V outlet is plenty for refilling just
about any practical pack that we can afford today, and the resulting
range is more than adequate for most of our daily needs. If/when we can
afford 80kWh+ packs that allow 300mi+ ranges, then high power charging
makes sense for those with access to the appropriate outlets.
In the meantime, those who have access to appropriate outlets can
certainly use high power chargers to opportunity charge during the day
so that they can get multiple cycles per day on a low capacity pack...
bearing in mind that a cycle is a cycle - if you run 3 cycles a day on a
set of YTs because you only have a 15mi range but need to make trips
totalling 45mi a day, then you're still looking at 1000 cycles and a
worn out pack in a year... a much more expensive option all around than
using a pack capable of 45mi/charge in the first place and putting a
single cycle on daily with a slow overnight recharge using a cheaper low
power charger.
High power charging may be more interesting and/or glamourous ;^>, but a
reasonably priced charger that can max out a 15A 120VAC line is a very
useful item for which there should be a far larger market...
Cheers,
Roger.
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I pray they don't junk that car I'd even pitch in for storage for a few months
till someone took it if it meant keeping it out of the crusher.
Just the MG part of it is the close the best condition of MG I have ever
seen. It is kind of a slug due to the low voltage but that is easily fixed. I
would have bid it on except I don't have the money to buy it, get it to texas
and upgrade it to survive the super speedway main roads.
Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Not one bid on the electric MG.It's a beautiful little car and I'd
certainly have considered it if it were less. Does anyone know if it's
going to be resubmitted?
-Mike
On 3/27/06, Jim Coate wrote:
> There is a cute little 1974 MG Midget electric car on eBay, in Chester
> CT, item #4625885016.
>
> Was this one of Jack Gretta's prizes? Although located close to me, I
> don't really have the money right now... I hope someone does to give it
> a nice loving home!
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4625885016
>
> 72 volts of flooded PbAs, 7.2 HP GE motor, doesn't say what controller
> (anyone know?).
>
> hmmmmm... if I sell the Solectria Force and get the MG and soup it up
> with a bigger controller/motor/AGMs.... 2500 pounds is a light car....
> droooooolllllll.... though might not be practical in the winter and bad
> weather..... hmmmmmmmm......
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1997 Solectria Force
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
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Lee, you are a gifted writer. Thanks for spending the time to let us see it.
........ he really was an engineer, and had worked on the inverter and motor
designs a lot. He was indeed an expert in the field of AC motor control.
Unfortunately, he knew almost nothing about DC motor control.
Mark
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Another datapoint,
it looks like the road-users are helping me to get measurements.
Today traffic was slow, but rather constant, so I could follow
traffic and do 52 MPH most of the route on 101.
I admit that there was a light breeze "in the back" and as
usual, no height differences.
I was amazed when inspecting the V/A logs of my controller
where I found almost all current around 40 Amp at 320V,
which means I used only 12.8kW to drive down the
freeway at 52 MPH in this truck!
That is under 250Wh/mi and in line with the efficiency
that Mike reported. Wow.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Cor van de Water
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 3:46 PM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: How many amps driving my EV?
Mike,
I know - I should get an Emeter. Too many thing to do right
now, so I go by with the data reported from my controller
once per second and averaging it over a long trip
(more than 5 miles of freeway 101, all just above Bay level,
so I am sure there are no height differences!)
Only factor I did not compensate for was wind, but I checked
that there was no significant storm (trees did not move).
260 Wh/mi is amazingly efficient.
It will be difficult to do long distance 45 MPH for me, this
speed is not in my commute.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 7:38 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: How many amps driving my EV?
Hi Cor,
Some tips. An Emeter would greatly assist in understanding the real
numbers your truck generates. The other thing that was learned is that
a no load measurement of the pack can mislead you greatly. A couple of
us now use 60 amps as the load used for comparing data between our
vehicles. I know the voltage discharge curve is linear, but believing
that will bite you.
Any incline or decline in the road surface makes a big difference in
measuring WH/mile. What I do is go to a known destination, then
backagain. That averages out the topology. The Emeter never lies. Yours
eyes and assumptions will lie to you. I found this out when I got my
Emeter working. It has educated me greatly. So has recording the data
the truck generates on a laptop.
My most efficient drive: On the slow drive from Mckee and Capitol, up
101 to 880 west. Then up Coleman to Costco. Costco's Avcon charger is
not charging, although it is powered up. The round trip in afternoon
rush hour gave me an average of 260 wh/mile. My truck has low rolling
resistance tires rated 44 psi now at 50 psi. I can feel the difference
over the old tires. Normal lead foot driving gives me 400-450 WH/mile
in stop and go traffic.
Before I changed the Emeter over to WH/mile it would read AH/mile. The
average was 1 AH per mile. .9 AH on the expressways at 45 mph.
Mike
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> (In the spirit of sharing actual driving consumption to
> help battery sizing - I get many questions like that)
> My vehicle:
> I have a 1994 Chevy S-10 (light truck)
> US Electricar conversion, see also:
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/
> and I measured the amps while doing
> constant speed on the Freeway.
> (higher tire pressure and a break-in
> period have reduced amps from previous runs)
> NOTE: it was drizzling during this trip,
> which may result in slightly lower tire friction.
>
> Driving down Freeway 101 at 56 MPH:
> 55 - 60Amp at 312V
> (306 - 334 WattHour/mile)
>
> Going to max throttle, reaching 68 MPH:
> 100 - 110Amp. (almost twice the power!)
> (450 - 500 Wh/mile)
>
> I'll stay with 55-60 MPH whenever I can.
>
> (Taking off uses 140 - 200Amp and reaching
> 55 - 60 MPH in this 5000 lbs truck takes
> about 30 - 40 seconds. Not fast but adequate
> and I can keep up with most traffic but the
> gas guzzlers. Suits me perfectly.)
>
> BTW - Last Saturday I beat my previous max distance
> on one charge by going 55 miles and still having 315V
> resting voltage (12.1V per battery)
> I did notice my acceleration was more limited in the end,
> the controller has a configurable low voltage limit, which
> is set to 273V (10.5V per battery) and it will cut output
> when this limit is reached, so I will be unable to kill
> my batteries as long as they stay balanced.
> I was able to maintain speed, but hard acceleration quickly
> resulted in jerking, a sign of reaching the limit, so it
> took longer to get up to speed.
> My estimation is that I was down to 30-35% SOC, based on
> the numbers for the resting voltage and the approximately
> 1 Ah per mile (312V pack) of this truck.
>
> Note: this pack has 110Ah batteries, 1 hour rating is 80Ah
> so 65-70% of that is 52-56 Ah.
>
> Note2: I still have the idea that my battery wiring has more
> series resistance than the internal resistance of the
> batteries, which means that the 273V limit is NOT 10.5V at
> the battery, dependent on the current.
> I need to measure the difference as I suspect the wiring,
> connectors and contactor to add too many milliOhms, so the
> batteries actually need to supply more current than when
> the resistance is lower (more volts => more power =>
> shorter acceleration OR I can trade the higher volts for
> lower amps to get the same accel). I may also gain range by
> reducing this 'waste' and avoid problems with overheating
> cabling. (most is only 2 AWG)
> (My voltage/current measurement make me believe that the
> internal resistance as seen by the controller is almost
> 300 milliOhm while the batteries are specified at 4 mOhm,
> so the 26 in series should only contribute 104 milliOhm.
> Unless the time it takes to go from acceleration to braking
> and back to acceleration also allows the batteries to have
> internal changes in electrolyte (stratification problem in
> AGMs? Lee?)
> But since I see a discrepancy of some 196 milliOhms, I want
> to check the connections at the controller; the contactor;
> the wiring to the battery box and my own wiring inside the
> battery box, although I believe that should contribute less
> than 50 milliOhm according my own measurements while doing
> the installation of the batteries.
>
> One check point can be to bring one battery's actual
> voltage out and measure it with a DVM while doing a launch
> and see how far it drops.
> Then do a measurement of the voltage across the entire
> battery pack, then the voltage across the contactor and
> cabling....
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
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hey steve -
been following the conversation on the ev list about your conversion
specs. you sure sparked some interesting exchanges.
hope you get it sorted out to your satisfaction.
as for our budget NEV conversion, we got the host car up on jack stands
and started poking, pulling & banging the rust off the underside. it's
very "holey". we need to decide whether we're going to spend our time
fabricating patches & welding up something that will pass inspection, or
spending time (and money) looking for a more solid host car.
good luck!
- darin
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