EV Digest 5320
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: calling Scott Ryan
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) RE: Poor-Boy'N It
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Testing for Isolation
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Battery Pack Heating
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery Pack Heating
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Testing for Isolation
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: bridge rectifier, motors an' stuff
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: Not altogether OT - Just a Little
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Testing for Isolation
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Battery Pack Heating
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battery Pack Heating
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Pepboys in Stockton selling floor model Schwinn Electric Chopper for $250
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery Pack Heating
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Battery Pack Heating
by "Don Cameron \(New Beetle EV\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Battery Pack Heating
by "Don Cameron \(New Beetle EV\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Dual Motors to FWD axles - Anyone done it ??
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Pepboys in Stockton selling floor model Schwinn Electric Chopper for
$250
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Battery Pack Heating
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Battery Pack Heating
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Berlin Turnpike; was bridge rectifier, motors an' stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Pepboys in Stockton selling floor model Schwinn Electric Chopper for
$250
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Battery Pack Heating
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Tried to e mail off list your motor questions of me but it bounced back call
me 6023777583 Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Dennis...Will visit them for sure...
Wayne
At 06:25 AM 4/5/2006, you wrote:
You may want to visit the Elec-Trak club site.
Lot of information and used tractors for sale.
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.elec-trak.org/
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 4:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Poor-Boy'N It
Wayne wrote:
> As a rank Newbie, I'm hoping to give myself a little OJT by
> building/converting a riding lawn mower to electric... cost is an
> significant factor.
> I'll most likely use an old Murry/Sears junked rider, 36" or something
> along those lines.
Is this a "garden tractor" type which can handle significant weight, pull
trailers, push plows, etc? That's what you want.
Or is it a lightweight riding lawn mower? These are generally too flimsy,
and can't carry enough battery weight to bother with.
> I'd like to use standard automotive batteries but if they won't do the
> job, I'll spring for a set of more serious batteries.
Don't waste your time with automotive batteries unless they are literally
free. They won't last more than a few dozen charge/discharge cycles even if
brand new.
6v golf cart batteries are likely to be your cheapest/best choice. See how
many you can fit on the tractor. 4 to 6 will be enough to mow for an hour or
so.
> What would be a good, cheap drive motor and (pair of) blade motors?
> The operative adjective being "cheap."
The 24v 200amp aircraft generator that someone just mentioned on the list
would be fine. It's actually more power than you really need.
A friend and I converted an old Wheel Horse garden tractor into an EV.
We used a 1.5 HP 24v DC motor from ABC Electronics that cost $50. It was
more than enough power to match the original 8 HP gasoline engine. We used a
separate 24v 3/4 HP motor to drive the mower deck, which eliminated the old
belt-drive setup.
Actually, pulling reel mowers takes far less energy. No extra motors needed.
> What would be the minimum speed regulating device?
None! Just an on/off switch. "Shift" by pressing the clutch (loosen the
drive belt), shift into another gear, and release the clutch. This is how
the very successful GE Elec-Trak electric garden tractors worked.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> I did what I think you recommended, but I'm not sure what it's
> telling me. The charger was neither plugged into the wall nor
> attached to the batteries. I put the multimeter on the Ohms setting,
> touched one lead to the AC ground and the other lead to one of the
> DC outputs. The meter immediately showed a couple megohms, then
> within three seconds, climbed to 30 megaohms, then when to 0L.
>
> Does this mean that the AC and DC are actually connected, maybe
> through a capacitor that's charging, and thus not isolated?
You also need to check from each AC input pin to each DC output pin.
This will detect isolation problems with such things as a "bad boy"
charger that has nothing but a bridge rectifier between input and
output, and no connections at all to ground.
This means there are one or more capacitors connected between ground and
the DC outputs. This is common; they are probably there for RF noise
filters, so it doesn't interfere with radios. Such capacitors won't
affect isolation.
If it had *stayed* at some resistance reading, then a resistor or some
other device is connected between ground and the outputs. Some designs
deliberately include a high-value resistor (over 1 megohm) to bleed off
electrostatic charge. Such resistors won't affect isolation, either.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Mike:
I use NAPA battery wrappers. They are not expensive and come and different
sizes. I use a cheap electronic a/c thermostat to control the system. In
order to do that, I removed the temperatur sensing part and stuck it into
the front battery box.
I can now set the battery temps according to the time and day (not that I
would need that feature :)
Michaela
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: April 4, 2006 9:07 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Battery Pack Heating
>
> I need suggestions for a heating system for my pack. I would like to use
> the
> orange silicone sheets, but they are hard to find in any length and are
> pricey. There are these home gutter or pipe heating cables that look good.
> They are around 5 watts per foot in 120vac or 240vac versions.
>
> The only car I know that has a heated pack runs about 500-600 watts for
> the
> 1200lb pack. So that's about 2 lbs per watt. It takes most of 25 hours to
> get the pack to the 30c-40c range. The system can hold it there with ease.
> It's usually heating during charging, but can be turned on any time.
>
> So I need ideas for how to heat this pack, and where to get the materials.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Here's to the crazy ones.
> The misfits.
> The rebels.
> The troublemakers.
> The round pegs in the square holes.
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
>
> www.RotorDesign.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> I need suggestions for a heating system for my pack... The only car
> I know that has a heated pack runs about 500-600 watts for the
> 1200lb pack. So that's about 2 lbs per watt. It takes most of 25
> hours to get the pack to the 30c-40c range. The system can hold it
> there with ease. It's usually heating during charging, but can be
> turned on any time.
500+ watts is far too much; if he needed this much power, he must have
had little or no insulation. This is a waste of power.
I have 1/2" to 1" of styrafoam insulation in my battery boxes. I bought
two battery heating pads from J.C. Whitney. Each claims to produce 75w
of heat, but actually measures 60w. I disassembled them, and glued the
heating wire to two 23" square aluminum sheets. One sheet went into the
bottom of each of my two battery boxes. Just this 60w of heat is enough
to raise the battery temperatures 30 deg.F.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Lee, you've suggested to check if the inverter reacts on the
> leakage by connection pack positive to the ground via something
> providing more than 20mA current and see if inverter shuts down.
>
> Thinking of it, I don't understand what external battery connection
> (leakage) to the ground outside inverter has to do with inverter,
> e.g. how does the inverter know if what I connect to the pack
> is >20mA parasitic leakage or, say, my own little DC-DC converter
> working off the pack and unrelated to inverter function?
The theory is that a common fault would be a short to ground somewhere
in the battery pack. So, you create such a fault (with a resistor, so
you don't literally have a short and so won't harm anything). If the
Siemens inverter includes ground fault protection, then it should detect
the resistive short to ground.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 4/5/06 8:25:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
<< Hi Dave;
In Newington, I think? Up towards your end of the Berlin T'Pike, coming
from Hartford it will be in the Strip Maul on your right, downhill, about >>
OH that BERLIN turnpike I used to street race in 68-72 a wheelie pulling 65
401 gransport with about a thousand cars on weekends.What would they say about
EVs now. Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can the veggieoilers get into this too? Maybe the NO gas part. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 3:07 PM
Subject: Not altogether OT - Just a Little
I know this link is probably all over all the PHEV sites, and groups. But
the animated cartoon is sooooo cute, I wanted the wider EV community to
share it.
More over, I know that probably 10% of the EV enthusiasts also own a
hybrid, either Honda, or Prius, and a few Fords. ( and maybe one Lexus.)
But MORE important than the cartoon, although very enjoyable, is the
simple way you can petition the auto-makers, from the cartoon site. Now
if we can get Prius owners by the Thousands to start SCREAMING for
"More Electricity, n Batteries ! Less gas !!!! " So if you have a friend
(friends) who have Hybrids... please forward this cartoon site to them as
well..
Thanks....
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Lee. I had already checked, and there appears to be no continuity
between the AC pins and the DC pins, just between the DC outputs and ground.
I also get no continuity between either of the AC pins and ground. So I
guess I'll assume that these chargers really are isolated.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 8:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Testing for Isolation
Bill Dennis wrote:
> I did what I think you recommended, but I'm not sure what it's
> telling me. The charger was neither plugged into the wall nor
> attached to the batteries. I put the multimeter on the Ohms setting,
> touched one lead to the AC ground and the other lead to one of the
> DC outputs. The meter immediately showed a couple megohms, then
> within three seconds, climbed to 30 megaohms, then when to 0L.
>
> Does this mean that the AC and DC are actually connected, maybe
> through a capacitor that's charging, and thus not isolated?
You also need to check from each AC input pin to each DC output pin.
This will detect isolation problems with such things as a "bad boy"
charger that has nothing but a bridge rectifier between input and
output, and no connections at all to ground.
This means there are one or more capacitors connected between ground and
the DC outputs. This is common; they are probably there for RF noise
filters, so it doesn't interfere with radios. Such capacitors won't
affect isolation.
If it had *stayed* at some resistance reading, then a resistor or some
other device is connected between ground and the outputs. Some designs
deliberately include a high-value resistor (over 1 megohm) to bleed off
electrostatic charge. Such resistors won't affect isolation, either.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone considered using car seat heaters? They're 12V, and could run
during the day from the DC/DC converter while the car was parked. At 60W as
Lee mentions, they would draw less than 1/2 Kwh over an 8-hour work day.
They are a little pricy, though.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 8:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery Pack Heating
Mike Phillips wrote:
> I need suggestions for a heating system for my pack... The only car
> I know that has a heated pack runs about 500-600 watts for the
> 1200lb pack. So that's about 2 lbs per watt. It takes most of 25
> hours to get the pack to the 30c-40c range. The system can hold it
> there with ease. It's usually heating during charging, but can be
> turned on any time.
500+ watts is far too much; if he needed this much power, he must have
had little or no insulation. This is a waste of power.
I have 1/2" to 1" of styrafoam insulation in my battery boxes. I bought
two battery heating pads from J.C. Whitney. Each claims to produce 75w
of heat, but actually measures 60w. I disassembled them, and glued the
heating wire to two 23" square aluminum sheets. One sheet went into the
bottom of each of my two battery boxes. Just this 60w of heat is enough
to raise the battery temperatures 30 deg.F.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The pack is 2 Optimas tall by 14 by Optimas long. It sits in a box.
There is a some 1/8" insualtion on the inside and the outside of the
box. Plus the exterior of the box is inside the car. The controller
blinks on every 2 seconds or so. About a constant 50% duty cycle when
running. After 40c is shuts off until it hits 30c. There is also a
thermostatically controlled fan for cooling if it needs it. The heater
is powered from pack voltage of 336v nominal, drawing 1.6 amps.
So 60w can bring the whole pack from 70f to 100f? In how much time and
at what ambient?
How much is the total weight of your pack Lee?
I would love it if 60w could keep my pack warm. I'm in San Jose, Ca so
I don't need as much heat as most areas.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> > I need suggestions for a heating system for my pack... The only car
> > I know that has a heated pack runs about 500-600 watts for the
> > 1200lb pack. So that's about 2 lbs per watt. It takes most of 25
> > hours to get the pack to the 30c-40c range. The system can hold it
> > there with ease. It's usually heating during charging, but can be
> > turned on any time.
>
> 500+ watts is far too much; if he needed this much power, he must have
> had little or no insulation. This is a waste of power.
>
> I have 1/2" to 1" of styrafoam insulation in my battery boxes. I bought
> two battery heating pads from J.C. Whitney. Each claims to produce 75w
> of heat, but actually measures 60w. I disassembled them, and glued the
> heating wire to two 23" square aluminum sheets. One sheet went into the
> bottom of each of my two battery boxes. Just this 60w of heat is enough
> to raise the battery temperatures 30 deg.F.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was at Pep Boys in Stockton California (West & March) and saw the Schwinn
electric chopper for the first time. It has a hub motor instead of a belt
like the Izip. It EVen has tailpipes & battery covers that look like a
motor. The boxed units are at $299. They are much like the Izip but of
course it's a Schwinn & unlike former models has front brakes. The Schwinn
electric chopper has a rear hub motor. What are the advantages of a hub
motor concerning souping up? Will they take more watts without heating up
excessively? .
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here are some VRLA manufacturer's temperature maximums for cyclic use.
BB Battery 35c
Optima 51.7c (AC Propulsion keeps them at 30c-40c)
Hawker Genesis 45c
All of the graphs that I see show that the voltage needs to be
controlled at higher temps or it can hurt a battery. I can do this
with clampers.
Roland: Were the burn marks on the battery or on the round cable? Were
these 5 watts/foot that you tried?
Michaela: Using a thermostat is a good idea.
Here in San Jose there are almost no heaters to speak of as I ran
around yesterday and looked all over town. So if you guys have some
URL's to share, that would be helpful.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Mike,
>
> I'm using thin stick-on heaters that Metric Mind used to carry. I have
> one on the bottom of each battery, 26 in all. The heaters are rated
> for 12v/36w each, but I run them in 13 sets of two heaters in series,
> so they're putting out about 9 watts each. My heater controller is set
> for about 78 degrees F (about 26 C), with the temperature sensor on the
> bottom of the middle battery in each box. The boxes are insulated on
> the bottom with rigid foam wall insulation (about 1/2" thick) and on all
> sides and the top with 1/2" expanded polyethylene.
>
> It takes a couple of days for the batteries to come up to temp, but I
> leave the heater controllers on all the time.
>
> Dave Cloud uses 'garden bed heater wire'. You can buy these in
pre-built
> lengths with temperature sensor. Just plug them into a standard 120vac
> outlet. You can put them under your batteries by cutting channels into
> sheets of insulation that the batteries rest on.
>
> Al Godfrey in Vancouver, BC uses battery heating blankets from JC
Whitney.
> These are interesting because they also have insulation.
>
> I think you should lower your temperature target. 40C is too hot.
>
> Ralph
>
>
> Mike Phillips writes:
> >
> > I need suggestions for a heating system for my pack. I would like to
> > use the orange silicone sheets, but they are hard to find in any
length
> > and are pricey. There are these home gutter or pipe heating cables
that
> > look good. They are around 5 watts per foot in 120vac or 240vac
> > versions.
> >
> > The only car I know that has a heated pack runs about 500-600
watts for
> > the 1200lb pack. So that's about 2 lbs per watt. It takes most of 25
> > hours to get the pack to the 30c-40c range. The system can hold it
> > there with ease. It's usually heating during charging, but can be
> > turned on any time.
> >
> > So I need ideas for how to heat this pack, and where to get the
> > materials.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > The misfits.
> > The rebels.
> > The troublemakers.
> > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > The ones who see things differently
> > The ones that change the world!!
> >
> > www.RotorDesign.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike, optimal temperature for lead acid batteries is 68degF (25degC)
100deg F is too hot, it will be a waste of heat energy and your batteries will
not perform as well.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
Quoting Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> The pack is 2 Optimas tall by 14 by Optimas long. It sits in a box.
> There is a some 1/8" insualtion on the inside and the outside of the
> box. Plus the exterior of the box is inside the car. The controller
> blinks on every 2 seconds or so. About a constant 50% duty cycle when
> running. After 40c is shuts off until it hits 30c. There is also a
> thermostatically controlled fan for cooling if it needs it. The heater
> is powered from pack voltage of 336v nominal, drawing 1.6 amps.
>
> So 60w can bring the whole pack from 70f to 100f? In how much time and
> at what ambient?
>
> How much is the total weight of your pack Lee?
>
> I would love it if 60w could keep my pack warm. I'm in San Jose, Ca so
> I don't need as much heat as most areas.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Mike Phillips wrote:
> > > I need suggestions for a heating system for my pack... The only car
> > > I know that has a heated pack runs about 500-600 watts for the
> > > 1200lb pack. So that's about 2 lbs per watt. It takes most of 25
> > > hours to get the pack to the 30c-40c range. The system can hold it
> > > there with ease. It's usually heating during charging, but can be
> > > turned on any time.
> >
> > 500+ watts is far too much; if he needed this much power, he must have
> > had little or no insulation. This is a waste of power.
> >
> > I have 1/2" to 1" of styrafoam insulation in my battery boxes. I bought
> > two battery heating pads from J.C. Whitney. Each claims to produce 75w
> > of heat, but actually measures 60w. I disassembled them, and glued the
> > heating wire to two 23" square aluminum sheets. One sheet went into the
> > bottom of each of my two battery boxes. Just this 60w of heat is enough
> > to raise the battery temperatures 30 deg.F.
> > --
> > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > Forget the perfect offering
> > There is a crack in everything
> > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
WOW!
Can you post the link for these temp recommendations? I am very interested in
the Hawker and Optima recommendations.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
Quoting Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Here are some VRLA manufacturer's temperature maximums for cyclic use.
>
> BB Battery 35c
> Optima 51.7c (AC Propulsion keeps them at 30c-40c)
> Hawker Genesis 45c
>
> All of the graphs that I see show that the voltage needs to be
> controlled at higher temps or it can hurt a battery. I can do this
> with clampers.
>
> Roland: Were the burn marks on the battery or on the round cable? Were
> these 5 watts/foot that you tried?
>
> Michaela: Using a thermostat is a good idea.
>
> Here in San Jose there are almost no heaters to speak of as I ran
> around yesterday and looked all over town. So if you guys have some
> URL's to share, that would be helpful.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > I'm using thin stick-on heaters that Metric Mind used to carry. I have
> > one on the bottom of each battery, 26 in all. The heaters are rated
> > for 12v/36w each, but I run them in 13 sets of two heaters in series,
> > so they're putting out about 9 watts each. My heater controller is set
> > for about 78 degrees F (about 26 C), with the temperature sensor on the
> > bottom of the middle battery in each box. The boxes are insulated on
> > the bottom with rigid foam wall insulation (about 1/2" thick) and on all
> > sides and the top with 1/2" expanded polyethylene.
> >
> > It takes a couple of days for the batteries to come up to temp, but I
> > leave the heater controllers on all the time.
> >
> > Dave Cloud uses 'garden bed heater wire'. You can buy these in
> pre-built
> > lengths with temperature sensor. Just plug them into a standard 120vac
> > outlet. You can put them under your batteries by cutting channels into
> > sheets of insulation that the batteries rest on.
> >
> > Al Godfrey in Vancouver, BC uses battery heating blankets from JC
> Whitney.
> > These are interesting because they also have insulation.
> >
> > I think you should lower your temperature target. 40C is too hot.
> >
> > Ralph
> >
> >
> > Mike Phillips writes:
> > >
> > > I need suggestions for a heating system for my pack. I would like to
> > > use the orange silicone sheets, but they are hard to find in any
> length
> > > and are pricey. There are these home gutter or pipe heating cables
> that
> > > look good. They are around 5 watts per foot in 120vac or 240vac
> > > versions.
> > >
> > > The only car I know that has a heated pack runs about 500-600
> watts for
> > > the 1200lb pack. So that's about 2 lbs per watt. It takes most of 25
> > > hours to get the pack to the 30c-40c range. The system can hold it
> > > there with ease. It's usually heating during charging, but can be
> > > turned on any time.
> > >
> > > So I need ideas for how to heat this pack, and where to get the
> > > materials.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > > The misfits.
> > > The rebels.
> > > The troublemakers.
> > > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > > The ones who see things differently
> > > The ones that change the world!!
> > >
> > > www.RotorDesign.com
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Currently driving a 48 Volt 90 Geo Metro with E-volks kit and
alltrax.
Have been offered a 96 metro 4 door automatic with no eng or trans
so I am looking at doing another low budget /low speed city car.
Looking for a simple way to put an electric motor/motors in it .....
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> You need to consider a number of things:
>
> 1. You must drive both wheels, not just one side
> 2. if you use a single motor, you must use a differential (so
going around
> a corner the inside wheel will drive slower than the outside)
> 3. if you use two motors (one for each wheel), you will not need a
> differential
> 4. you must have some kind of gear reduction (e.g. 4:1 or 5:1) or
else the
> motor will not be able to generate enough torque
>
> Keep in mind that common rear ends are a combination of a
differential and a
> gear reduction.
>
> In the example you cited, the person used a single motor with a
> differential **and** gear reduction. You can use two motors
without a
> differential, but you will still need gear reduction. If they had
two
> motors, and wanted to drop top speed from 53mph to 45mph, they
would still
> need gear reduction of some sort.
>
>
> Looking at the Etek (from evparts.com) it runs at 3000RPM. If you
ran with
> **no** gear reduction and 175/R13 tires, you would be going
215mph!!
> However, the Etek does not have the torque nor the power to make
this
> happen. If you ran with a gear reduction of 4.8:1 you would get a
speed of
> 45mph at 3000rpm. Yet you must consider: are these motors
powerful enough
> to move a geo metro at 45mph? Up hills? Against wind?
Accelerating
> "quickly" from a stop?
>
>
> Maybe, as a guide, look at what others are using for motors in Geo
Metros
> (Solectria, ElectroAuto, CanEv) this will give you a good idea of
the amount
> of torque and power you will need from two etek motors. Search
their web
> sites, search the archives.
>
>
>
> So what is your project? A geo metro conversion? Do you have a
donor car
> yet?
>
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.schwinnstingray.com/pressroom/docs/4-7-05_electric_Sting-Ray_launch_release.pdf#search='Schwinn%20Electric%20Chopper%20Hub%20motor'
It's been here for a year. First time I've seen one. LR>..........
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 09:30:51 -0700
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Pepboys in Stockton selling floor model Schwinn Electric Chopper
for $250
I was at Pep Boys in Stockton California (West & March) and saw the
Schwinn
electric chopper for the first time. It has a hub motor instead of a belt
like the Izip. It EVen has tailpipes & battery covers that look like a
motor. The boxed units are at $299. They are much like the Izip but of
course it's a Schwinn & unlike former models has front brakes. The
Schwinn
electric chopper has a rear hub motor. What are the advantages of a hub
motor concerning souping up? Will they take more watts without heating up
excessively? .
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
________________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Here are some VRLA manufacturer's temperature maximums for cyclic use.
>
> BB Battery 35c
> Optima 51.7c (AC Propulsion keeps them at 30c-40c)
> Hawker Genesis 45c
These are *NOT* recommended temperatures for use; these are typical
"stop charging or discharging immediately if the battery exceeds this
level" temperatures.
Optima is notoriously bad at providing useful literature for their
batteries, but Hawker does provide decent literature. You should read
it sometime. Battery life, etc. is quoted assuming an operating
temperature of 20C and *HALVES* for every 10 degree rise above that
point. This is known widely as the Arrhenius (possibly misspelled ;^)
relationship, and applies to *all* lead acid batteries.
At least one VRLA manufacturer has told me that if the battery is over
40C there is no point in worrying too greatly about temperature
compensation of the voltage because the battery is being killed anyway.
That is, no matter how ideally you treat it otherwise, it will still die
prematurely.
A flooded battery manufacturer has told me they get concerned about
reduced battery life if the electrolyte temperature exceeds 80F during
charge, especially if there is not an adequate coolling off period
betweeen the end of charge and start of discharge.
Most manufacturers recommend halting charging immediately if the battery
temp exceeds some level. 50C (120F) is pretty common. I think I saw a
value of 55C for Optimas once upon a time.
Heat your batteries to 30-40C if you are racing or want to get the
absolute maximum capacity from them (but, again, read Hawker's
literature - they have graphs of capcity vs temperature and you can see
that it is a matter of diminishing returns to heat them much above
25-30C). Operating them at this level *will* shorten their life, though
you may not actually notice much degradation unless you had the charging
etc. just right (that is, you won't get rated life unless you treat them
right in every other regard, so whether they die prematurely due to
mistreatment or to being run too hot, they still die prematurely).
> All of the graphs that I see show that the voltage needs to
> be controlled at higher temps or it can hurt a battery. I can
> do this with clampers.
I doubt that. You need to temperature compensate the absorption
voltage, and at the start of the absorption phase you are typically
still running full bulk current. The current drops off as the batteries
fill up, but it spends most of the absorption phase *well* above the
couple of amps that most clampers can survive for any length of time.
Don't forget also that discharging the batteries causes them to heat up,
and charging them also causes them to heat up. If you are holding them
at 30-40C (surface temp), they will be hotter than this inside, which is
what counts. Your heating system can't actively cool them to maintain
30-40C, so you have very little room for temperature rise associated
with normal use. If the batteries are at 30-40C (surface temp) at the
start of charge, and heat up from there, and then you rely on
dissipative clampers to provide voltage compensation, you better have
the clamper loads out of the battery box so they aren't also dumping
their heat into the batteries...
Good luck,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
These are MAX temperatures.
NOT to be crossed without derating (reducing amps).
You always need to adapt volts to changing temps, no matter
at which temp you started or ended.
The East-Penn battery book link that was shared recently
had some nice graphs and tables about battery voltage/temp.
You better stay below the max temps if you want max performance
and long battery life.
In San Jose you better think about battery cooling than heating.
If your batteries are below freezing a significant part of the year
and you need range, then battery heating is in order.
I am also near San Jose and I have not heated my batteries and
I also do not intend to add battery heating.
Why do you think that heating might improve your EV (more than a
few percent in range)?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 9:39 AM
To: Ralph Merwin
Subject: Re: Battery Pack Heating
Here are some VRLA manufacturer's temperature maximums for cyclic use.
BB Battery 35c
Optima 51.7c (AC Propulsion keeps them at 30c-40c)
Hawker Genesis 45c
All of the graphs that I see show that the voltage needs to be
controlled at higher temps or it can hurt a battery. I can do this
with clampers.
Roland: Were the burn marks on the battery or on the round cable? Were
these 5 watts/foot that you tried?
Michaela: Using a thermostat is a good idea.
Here in San Jose there are almost no heaters to speak of as I ran
around yesterday and looked all over town. So if you guys have some
URL's to share, that would be helpful.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Mike,
>
> I'm using thin stick-on heaters that Metric Mind used to carry. I have
> one on the bottom of each battery, 26 in all. The heaters are rated
> for 12v/36w each, but I run them in 13 sets of two heaters in series,
> so they're putting out about 9 watts each. My heater controller is set
> for about 78 degrees F (about 26 C), with the temperature sensor on the
> bottom of the middle battery in each box. The boxes are insulated on
> the bottom with rigid foam wall insulation (about 1/2" thick) and on all
> sides and the top with 1/2" expanded polyethylene.
>
> It takes a couple of days for the batteries to come up to temp, but I
> leave the heater controllers on all the time.
>
> Dave Cloud uses 'garden bed heater wire'. You can buy these in
pre-built
> lengths with temperature sensor. Just plug them into a standard 120vac
> outlet. You can put them under your batteries by cutting channels into
> sheets of insulation that the batteries rest on.
>
> Al Godfrey in Vancouver, BC uses battery heating blankets from JC
Whitney.
> These are interesting because they also have insulation.
>
> I think you should lower your temperature target. 40C is too hot.
>
> Ralph
>
>
> Mike Phillips writes:
> >
> > I need suggestions for a heating system for my pack. I would like to
> > use the orange silicone sheets, but they are hard to find in any
length
> > and are pricey. There are these home gutter or pipe heating cables
that
> > look good. They are around 5 watts per foot in 120vac or 240vac
> > versions.
> >
> > The only car I know that has a heated pack runs about 500-600
watts for
> > the 1200lb pack. So that's about 2 lbs per watt. It takes most of 25
> > hours to get the pack to the 30c-40c range. The system can hold it
> > there with ease. It's usually heating during charging, but can be
> > turned on any time.
> >
> > So I need ideas for how to heat this pack, and where to get the
> > materials.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > The misfits.
> > The rebels.
> > The troublemakers.
> > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > The ones who see things differently
> > The ones that change the world!!
> >
> > www.RotorDesign.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: bridge rectifier, motors an' stuff
> In a message dated 4/5/06 8:25:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> writes:
>
> << Hi Dave;
>
> In Newington, I think? Up towards your end of the Berlin T'Pike,
coming
> from Hartford it will be in the Strip Maul on your right, downhill, about
>>
> OH that BERLIN turnpike I used to street race in 68-72 a wheelie pulling
65
> 401 gransport with about a thousand cars on weekends.What would they say
about
> EVs now. Dennis
> Hi Dennis;
Imagine the fun IF ya could run the Current Elininater there, now! But
howbout the pickup you wanna do? Build it, bring it up, you can stage/charge
at my place<g>!Sad to say I don't think there is much street racing there
,like old times. My kids used to cruise up there with my Vid camera, have a
few vids, but nothing that spactacular.Sigh!Do a few brakestands in front of
the C. D.O.T headquarters! Just down the 'pike!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.schwinnstingray.com/bike-electric.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron (New Beetle EV)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: Battery Pack Heating
> WOW!
>
> Can you post the link for these temp recommendations? I am very
> interested in
> the Hawker and Optima recommendations.
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>
>
> Quoting Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > Here are some VRLA manufacturer's temperature maximums for cyclic use.
> >
> > BB Battery 35c
> > Optima 51.7c (AC Propulsion keeps them at 30c-40c)
> > Hawker Genesis 45c
> >
> > All of the graphs that I see show that the voltage needs to be
> > controlled at higher temps or it can hurt a battery. I can do this
> > with clampers.
> >
> > Roland: Were the burn marks on the battery or on the round cable? Were
> > these 5 watts/foot that you tried?
This was on the cable, I don't remember what the watts/foot was, this was
over 20 years ago. Roland
> >
> > Michaela: Using a thermostat is a good idea.
> >
> > Here in San Jose there are almost no heaters to speak of as I ran
> > around yesterday and looked all over town. So if you guys have some
> > URL's to share, that would be helpful.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > I'm using thin stick-on heaters that Metric Mind used to carry. I
> > > have
> > > one on the bottom of each battery, 26 in all. The heaters are rated
> > > for 12v/36w each, but I run them in 13 sets of two heaters in series,
> > > so they're putting out about 9 watts each. My heater controller is
> > > set
> > > for about 78 degrees F (about 26 C), with the temperature sensor on
> > > the
> > > bottom of the middle battery in each box. The boxes are insulated on
> > > the bottom with rigid foam wall insulation (about 1/2" thick) and on
> > > all
> > > sides and the top with 1/2" expanded polyethylene.
> > >
> > > It takes a couple of days for the batteries to come up to temp, but I
> > > leave the heater controllers on all the time.
> > >
> > > Dave Cloud uses 'garden bed heater wire'. You can buy these in
> > pre-built
> > > lengths with temperature sensor. Just plug them into a standard
> > > 120vac
> > > outlet. You can put them under your batteries by cutting channels
> > > into
> > > sheets of insulation that the batteries rest on.
> > >
> > > Al Godfrey in Vancouver, BC uses battery heating blankets from JC
> > Whitney.
> > > These are interesting because they also have insulation.
> > >
> > > I think you should lower your temperature target. 40C is too hot.
> > >
> > > Ralph
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike Phillips writes:
> > > >
> > > > I need suggestions for a heating system for my pack. I would like to
> > > > use the orange silicone sheets, but they are hard to find in any
> > length
> > > > and are pricey. There are these home gutter or pipe heating cables
> > that
> > > > look good. They are around 5 watts per foot in 120vac or 240vac
> > > > versions.
> > > >
> > > > The only car I know that has a heated pack runs about 500-600
> > watts for
> > > > the 1200lb pack. So that's about 2 lbs per watt. It takes most of 25
> > > > hours to get the pack to the 30c-40c range. The system can hold it
> > > > there with ease. It's usually heating during charging, but can be
> > > > turned on any time.
> > > >
> > > > So I need ideas for how to heat this pack, and where to get the
> > > > materials.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > > > The misfits.
> > > > The rebels.
> > > > The troublemakers.
> > > > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > > > The ones who see things differently
> > > > The ones that change the world!!
> > > >
> > > > www.RotorDesign.com
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
>
>
--- End Message ---
