EV Digest 5326
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_Circuit_breakers,_fuses,_GFCI=B4s_=28newbie?=
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=29?=
by "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Multi charger.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: 3kw genset for $315
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Finally back on the road. AC Li-ion upgrade (Long)
by "Peter Perkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Porsche 911 Was: How many amps driving my EV?
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 1209 or 1221B parts
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Finally back on the road. AC Li-ion upgrade (Long)
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery sound monitoring
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Battery Pack Heating
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 80 miles in a Porsche 911?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Battery Pack Heating
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Porsche 911 Was: How many amps driving my EV?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: 3kw genset for $315
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 1209 or 1221B parts
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Crazy DC regen idea
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Some of my latest DC-AC Li-Ion upgrade photos.
by "Peter Perkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Some of my latest DC-AC Li-Ion upgrade photos.
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Some of my latest DC-AC Li-Ion upgrade photos.
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Some of my latest DC-AC Li-Ion upgrade photos.
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Some of my latest DC-AC Li-Ion upgrade photos.
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Motor options
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The goal is always to build so the leakage current is as close to zero
as possible. Leakage currents create a shock hazard, increase noise,
promote corrosion, and add stress to components.
The DC GFCI's are there to detect leakage current, as a predictor of
trouble. The source of the leakage current could be someone touching
the
high voltage DC wiring and ground, a leaky or dirty battery, water
getting into some part of the HV system, insulation breakdown
somewhere,
etc. All of these indicate trouble!
Sounds like DC GFCI is very useful if problems occur, and should be
included in every conversion. So why isn´t that the case? According to
your description, making one isn´t even very difficult or expensive?
With my very limited understanding of all of this, GFCI seems to be
more important than a circuit breaker as a safety equipment, if you
have to choose only one of them because of limited space or to cut down
costs - supposing you have fuses to cut overcurrent anyway. Circuit
breaker´s another function, to separate battery back, could be done
using a simple switch?
Just my 2 euro-cents worth
Osmo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess I am in both camps then.
On M,W,F the charger is always done before I go to lunch and done before
I go home or wake up in the morning.even on 110V
but on tuesday and thursday I can't quiet get a full charge on the pack
after lunch because I work a short day to go to school, I plug in when I
get home but only for an hour. at 110V into a 300V pack with 15amp
breakers I can only put 4 amps into the pack. Depending on what time I
got lunch, that isn't enough time to put enough in to go to school
without pushing below 80% DOD. On those days I need a quick charge.
Back to the subject of modular chargeers. I had a reg board fail(cause I
let it get wet, duh!) anyhow, it got stuck bypassing and shut the
charger down to 1/2 amp draining the battery to 6volts by the morning,
while plugged in. "Stuck bypassing" is a failure mode less associated
with the individual chargers. Monitoring with alarms is really the only
way to be sure and that goes for either type of balancer/charger and I
believe the motivation behind MK3 s. Let us not forget we(ok, Rich,
Otmar, Victor, Lee and others, maybe not me) are the developers/beta
testers and early adopters. We have to welcome the variences in design.
When we stop trying new ways that is when we are dead. I first thought
25K for a battery pack was not feasable, now I am wondering about my
next pack, could they be kokam's?
As a matter of fact I have 2 ideas for battery chargeing/managing
systems, one centered around the pfc20 that would increase it's
balancing speed and one that uses distributed boards to charge each
battery at it's own rate to all reach full at same time. Thes would be
driven off of a high frequency power buss. The pack would determine
which is best, [EMAIL PROTECTED] blocks vs [EMAIL PROTECTED] blocks, makes a
big difference .
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de water said
snip
>It does not make environmental sense (a genset
>pollutes at least ten times as bad as a regular
>car
snip
Does that have to be that way? I want to make a gentrailer to extend my range
for those out of town trips.
I was thinking of either a 400hz aircraft generator or a PM generator for the
DC end direct to the pack since every conversion costs and generatig power is
already one conversion. (Although, I have an idea about that)
What kind of motor can I get to run this effiently, can it run on the propane
tanks that can be found at orchard supply and RV places?
sterling? turbine, piston, rotory, atkinson? I mean, what is avail in low
emmision small motors?
How about a newer, smog equiped motorcycle or a little 3cyl geo motor.
My biggest problem is the drive I want is 100 miles ending in a 2000-3000 foot
climb, that is some serious amps.
The Idea : since most internal combustion engines are only 25% effient, the
other 75% is given off in heat. That means there is more energy available from
the exhaust heat than is avil from the shaft. Maybe we can come up with an
inexpensive method($,weight,space) to convert this heat to power, perhaps a
thermocouple battery, Peltiers are so expensive but they would be a heck of a
way to charge the added batteries in a hybrid :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear All
After a false start due to propshaft problem, finally back on the road
today.
Just been on a gentle 10 mile trip. Sweet as a nut. Smooth and silent. Final
AC controller tweaking and should be OK.
Need to travel to a couple of hills for some regen testing.
Better update my web site now.
Regards
Peter UK
Old update and pics below.
Dear List Members.
It works!
The wheels go round! And the right way. Well they do now, after I swaped the
motor connections, and corrected one wiring mistake on the throttle pot!
Initial one mile road test thoughts,
1) Much improved acceleration and start ability.
2) Regeneration! Great, not had that before :)
3) Quieter at crusing speed. Only road/tyre/wind noise now.
Cedric Lynch Li-Ion cell protectors all ok.
Modified Zivan 3kw 25A IUa NG3 onboard charger functioning ok
Home made 6kw 55A offboard charger functioning ok.
Battery heater ok, temp 20C.
Vehicle is now on charge, receiving a CV balancing charge for a few hours,
probably overnight, TS 200ah cells have been stood for 4-5 months. Inter
cell voltage variation <75mv.
28 cells, pack voltage is steady at 117v and current is slowly falling. Less
than 4A now.
A bit more fiddling to do (A project like this is never finished really!),
and some adjustments to AC controller parameters to make.
I'll pass on performance tests asap.
PS
I have a Zapi programming console now, if anyone in the UK ever needs to
borrow one.
Peter
www.solarvan.co.uk
See below for old update and pics/specs
Dear Members
Some of you will know I am doing a low cost, low voltage DC to AC upgrade at
present. (New information and progress report is at the bottom of this mail)
I will soon be running a 96v 450A Zapi 3phase ac controller with regen and a
96v 3phase 12kw con rated induction motor.
The motor and controller cost me £2000 brand new.
I am lucky enough to own a pack of 200Ah TS cells and can report good life
and performance in the 2+ years I have had them.
A few links for interest are here.
http://www.electrofit-zapi.com/hfacinverters.htm
www.solarvan.co.uk
The motor came from Best Motors in Italy.
http://www.bestmotor.it/frameset_ei.html
They do not list AC motors on the site, but do supply them to order and
spec.
Zapi only supply a controller with a motor, as they require matching. That's
why I ended up with an Italian motor as well.
Curtis operate the same policy I think. You will be lucky if they sell you a
controller without a motor.
I went for the Zapi controller as it allowed a higher voltage 96v instead of
the curtis 80v.
A couple of pics of the motor/controller versus my old 120v 400A curtis
stuff are here, as are motor spec drawing, motor torque voltage curves and
Zapi AC controller manual.
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac017.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac021.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/bestmotor.pdf
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac3manual.pdf
www.solarvan.co.uk/MVC-001F.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/MVC-002F.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/MVC-003F.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/MVC-004F.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/MVC-005F.jpg
Hope to get upgrade finished by 010406
New for 04/02/06 are ten more pictures of my current progress.
They are at www.solarvan.co.uk/ac01.jpg to www.solarvan.co.uk/ac10.jpg
inclusive. Just change the number to get the other pictures. They are about
350kb each to give full detail.
My TS Cells are now contained in a false floor battery and insulation layer
cake inside the vehicle. They are securely strapped down with that 12mm
300kg breaking strain nylon packing tape, tensioned and crimped, two straps
per cell to about 100kg each. I have a full set of crimping, tensioning
tools, crimps and miles of tape if anyone wants to borrow it in UK. It was
excellent for securing and compressing cells. Fits perefectly into slots in
TS cells.
Basically the floor is raised about 6 inches now.
It's layered as follows.
1st layer, onto original van metal floor, 25mm Kingspan silvered insulation.
2nd layer, 9mm plywood sheet drilled and bolted through insulation and metal
vehicle floor, drilled and fitted with 12mm strapping before placing in
vehicle.
3rd layer, 28x200ah TS Cells laid out as you see, and securely strapped
down, with white electric blanket heating wire underneath all cells to keep
them warm.
Note, sides also filled with blocks of Kingspan insulation to make a sealed
compartment.
4th layer, sheet of 2mm ultra lightweight compressible foam to seal gaps
between edges and top sheet of thermo insulation, and to provide electrical
insulation between silvered side of thermo insulation and cells. Well you
never know, a loose wire can occur!
5th layer, another sheet of 25mm Kingspan silvered insulation.
6th layer, a sheet of 12mm plywood to provide load flooring, bolted through
layers to vehicle metal body.
7th layer, Carpet! Not yet fitted as you see.
I was happy to sacrifice some load space to allow the secure and insulated
fitting of the most expensive item, the battery pack!
The under cell mains powered heating is thermostat controlled, and shuts off
when cells reach 25C.
I have left provision for forced air ventilation through cells if required,
but I will monitor pack temp and see if I actually need to fit this!
The ambient temp is quite low here in Northern England, I don't envisage
overheating will be a major problem.
The underseat electronics compartment is coming along well. It's still wires
all over the place at the moment, but I'm pretty pleased with progress.
The AC motor is now in situ underneath the vehicle on a very secure mild
steel mounting as you can see.
My ETA of 01/04/06 looks quite acheivable at present.
I will update my website when it's finally done.
Regards
Peter Perkins.
Chilly in the UK!
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/302 - Release Date: 05/04/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
A Porshe 911 with half a VW bug behind it... hilarious!
As an owner of a 68 Porsche 911L, I would be very wary of adding extra
weight in the back of the car. Unlike the 914, the 911 tends to be very
"tail happy" and the rear end does break loose.
This effect is more.... pronounced on the 65-68 models, in 1969 Porsche
moved the wheelbase a bit back to make it better.
Typically when you drive a 911L, you learn how to use the motor to steer
the rear wheels. If you are in a turn and you pour on the power, the
rear end "tucks in" and you can take the turn quicker. However you are
now getting into a funny place: If you run out of power before you run
out of turn you run out of luck.
If you don't add power, you will slide. If you dare to take your foot
off the throttle, the rear end will swing out. This is extremely handy
for making a *very* tight turn, as you can let off the throttle, swing
the car around, then pour on the power to tuck the rear end back in.
If you hit the brakes in a turn, well you die. End of story, the car
will spin fast and hard, and that will be that.
I have been concerned about the idea of a battery powered 911. You would
not have the power needed to drive out of a rear slide, and adding that
much weight to the back of the car would increase the possibility of
spinning out anyway. My 911L has a pair of 40lb lead weights put into
the ends of the front bumper to try and mitigae this; 69-73 911's used a
pair of batteries up front to try and fix this.
I would strongly recommend a 914. I've owned one of those, and they have
their weight more towards the center.
Just a thought
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They haven't produced the B version in quite some time, as it was replaced
by the C, which has better low speed/high
current internal protection
Does that mean they have different rampup? I have noticed a lot of people
don't like them as much as the B model. LR>..........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Congrats, Peter! Looking forward to reading all about it.
-Jerry
http://www.evconvert.com/
On Apr 6, 2006, at 9:41 AM, Peter Perkins wrote:
Dear All
After a false start due to propshaft problem, finally back on the road
today.
Just been on a gentle 10 mile trip. Sweet as a nut. Smooth and
silent. Final
AC controller tweaking and should be OK.
Need to travel to a couple of hills for some regen testing.
Better update my web site now.
Regards
Peter UK
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's a great idea. Something used to pick up vibrations rather than
sounds may be better than an actual sound pickup device. Since I have
this huge pack that's junk I might as well learn from it what I can.
Mike
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I would say that this will work at least for the floodies.
> And a nice robust unit may be had in the form of the knock sensors
> used
> in newer cars, it is a microphone they feed 5v to ground and the
> average
> current is the degree of knocking.
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Trust me, 4 strings was so NOT my idea. That's how I got the truck.
It's bad. I spot tested a few Hawkers last night. Even the new ones
that were 16 minutes at 40 amps are now 13 minute batterys. There could
be a temperature curve in there. But the older batts went from 10
minutes at 40 amps to 3-4 minutes last night.
As much as I hate doing the work, maybe adding another box and going
for the 100ah batts would simplify things after th einitial
installation shock.
Mike
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Don't lose the truck,
> just make sure that all your strings have equal
> internal resistance (so they share load) or aim
> for a single string next time,
> that way you lose more than half the problem. (IMHO)
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 5:08 PM
> To: Roger Stockton
> Subject: Re: Battery Pack Heating
>
>
> There may be more, but ACP had Alan's orginal CRX with batterys
> inside
> the car like most converted ev's. Then they built at least two more
> Hondas. One of which is a CRX the other is just slightly larger but
> still a two door version. Then there is the Saturn as well. I've lost
> track of the Tzeros as most have been sold. They still had a lead
> acid
> car down there. I know one Lion Tzero car that is up here around
> Silicon Valley somewhere.
>
> Typical is 220 wh/mi with no kindness to acceleration. I promise this
> is a 14 second car.
>
> If heating was not germaine to the packs life, ACP would not have
> kept
> putting it in their lead acid cars.
>
> One of the ACP owner/drivers doesn't watch for DOD at all. He drives
> his car until the monitoring system shows 11 volts per battery under
> light load. Which is about 40-50 amps in these cars. He gets 20-30k
> from a pack in his daily driver. He has told me that getting 20-30k
> is
> routine in their cars.
>
> These guys plus the NREL report are enough proof for me to
> investigate
> and build thermal management into my truck. Maybe having Optimas is
> the magic ingredient, but I have to do something constructive as 5k
> miles per pack makes a 440 powered Chrysler look cheap to drive. That
> is providing that I don't sell the truck first ;)
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Mike Phillips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > 150 wh/mi is at very low speed on level ground. It's not
> > > what a typical user generates in daily driving. This is
> > > what I have observed riding in these cars.
> >
> > So which "cars" are you referring to? Alan's original (and only?)
> CRX
> > running Optimas or one or more Tzero's running Optimas? I thought
> there
> > were only a couple Tzeros built and that at least one of them is
> running
> > a near-7000 cell Li pack, not lead-acid.
> >
> > If 150Wh/mi is not typical, what have you observed to be typical in
> > these cars?
> >
> > > These are the weekly clues I get that tell me ACP's
> > > battery management has great merit in making battery
> > > life all it can be.
> >
> > I'm a great believer in BMS. You have provided nothing to suggest
> to me
> > that heating the batteries does anything to improve battery life in
> a
> > cyclic application. My belief is that those who operate their
> batteries
> > at elevated temperatures do so to achieve the absolute greatest
> range
> > per charge, and that a good BMS may allow them to still achieve a
> decent
> > life *despite* the detrimental effects of elevated temperature on
> the
> > battery internals.
> >
> > > I'd like to see what lead acid Ranger and EV1 owners use to get
> from a
> > > pack in terms of cycle life.
> >
> > There is no such thing as an EV1 owner; EV1's were leased, and I
> doubt
> > anyone will ever know what the true battery life was since the
> factory
> > service could include anything from swapping out weak modules
> before the
> > leasee ever noticed them to swapping out the entire pack, without
> the
> > user being any the wiser.
> >
> > > What kind of EV do you own Roger?
> >
> > Not sure why that is relevant, but mine is a 120V Suzuki Forsa
> (Chevy
> > Sprint) conversion presently loaded with YTs. I suppose I should
> be
> > cheering you on to go ahead and cook a set of YTs so the rest of us
> can
> > learn on your dime what to do with our packs ;^>, but I can't help
> but
> > caution you when everything we know about lead acid batteries
> suggests
> > that elevated temperatures are at odds with maximising battery
> life.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roger.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The problem is the speed you will settle on to do your 80 miles. What do
you want to do? Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 9:51 PM
Subject: 80 miles in a Porsche 911?
Not really an expert, but I'm converting one myself. What year is
your donor car?
Compare to some other cars: The super efficient EV1 with roughly 50%
weight in batteries would go about 40 to 60 miles on a charge (1st
gen lead acid batteries) and about 60 to 80 miles on the 2nd gen lead
acid batteries. Real featherfooting and low speeds would get it 100
miles. The Tzero by AC Propulsion claimed a 100 mile range on lead
acid batteries -- but this is a car with no doors, no transmission,
and an expensive AC drive system.
I'd think 80 miles on lead acid batteries is going to be tough. It
would be much easier with advanced chemistry.
Having said that, with 1900 lbs of batteries and a 911, you might
have a shot at it. The 911 is light and the gas motor is heavy. The
aerodynamics are good, it goes surprisingly fast on modest
horsepower. The suspension is fully adjustable, so you can optimize
toe on both axles. You can get race seats, fiberglass bumpers, and
plastic windows and shave off some weight. You could also put on a
belly pan and shave the rain gutters to improve the aerodynamics.
On the flip side, the truck's aero is going to stink, so you'd need
alot of batteries to get it to work.
My guess is it would boil down to the 911 is better for highway work,
and the truck is better for low speed work.
Final thought: This might be a case for a hybrid pack. Do 26
Orbitals, and as many Lithium batteries as you can afford. Have the
Lithium batteries give a steady 50 amps or so to charge the lead
batteries, and the lead handles the high current bursts. You'd be on
your own here, though, as you'd be trailblazing.
--- Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I would really like to get 80 miles in the Porsche 911 and I could
fit
26 110ah AGM batteries inside.
Looks like 8 in the gas tank area, 6 across the back seat, 2 on the
floor and 10 in the engine compartment.
The battery weight would be 27x72lbs=1944lbs. I think the awesome
porsche handling will go out the window with a final weight over
3800lbs. I'm now thinking of the small light pickup instead. The
extra
weight should be easier to deal with.
Any Porsche experts out there? I hate to sell this car.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I will, right after I get rid of this junk pack.
Mike
PS Or maybe I should do the experiment on this junk pack.
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mike, please report your experiments this will be interesting to
> see!
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: April 5, 2006 5:08 PM
> To: Roger Stockton
> Subject: Re: Battery Pack Heating
>
> There may be more, but ACP had Alan's orginal CRX with batterys
> inside the
> car like most converted ev's. Then they built at least two more
> Hondas. One
> of which is a CRX the other is just slightly larger but still a two
> door
> version. Then there is the Saturn as well. I've lost track of the
> Tzeros as
> most have been sold. They still had a lead acid car down there. I
> know one
> Lion Tzero car that is up here around Silicon Valley somewhere.
>
> Typical is 220 wh/mi with no kindness to acceleration. I promise this
> is a
> 14 second car.
>
> If heating was not germaine to the packs life, ACP would not have
> kept
> putting it in their lead acid cars.
>
> One of the ACP owner/drivers doesn't watch for DOD at all. He drives
> his car
> until the monitoring system shows 11 volts per battery under light
> load.
> Which is about 40-50 amps in these cars. He gets 20-30k from a pack
> in his
> daily driver. He has told me that getting 20-30k is routine in their
> cars.
>
> These guys plus the NREL report are enough proof for me to
> investigate and
> build thermal management into my truck. Maybe having Optimas is the
> magic
> ingredient, but I have to do something constructive as 5k miles per
> pack
> makes a 440 powered Chrysler look cheap to drive. That is providing
> that I
> don't sell the truck first ;)
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Mike Phillips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > 150 wh/mi is at very low speed on level ground. It's not what a
> > > typical user generates in daily driving. This is what I have
> > > observed riding in these cars.
> >
> > So which "cars" are you referring to? Alan's original (and only?)
> CRX
> > running Optimas or one or more Tzero's running Optimas? I thought
> > there were only a couple Tzeros built and that at least one of them
> is
> > running a near-7000 cell Li pack, not lead-acid.
> >
> > If 150Wh/mi is not typical, what have you observed to be typical in
>
> > these cars?
> >
> > > These are the weekly clues I get that tell me ACP's battery
> > > management has great merit in making battery life all it can be.
> >
> > I'm a great believer in BMS. You have provided nothing to suggest
> to
> > me that heating the batteries does anything to improve battery life
> in
> > a cyclic application. My belief is that those who operate their
> > batteries at elevated temperatures do so to achieve the absolute
> > greatest range per charge, and that a good BMS may allow them to
> still
> > achieve a decent life *despite* the detrimental effects of elevated
>
> > temperature on the battery internals.
> >
> > > I'd like to see what lead acid Ranger and EV1 owners use to get
> from a
> > > pack in terms of cycle life.
> >
> > There is no such thing as an EV1 owner; EV1's were leased, and I
> doubt
> > anyone will ever know what the true battery life was since the
> factory
> > service could include anything from swapping out weak modules
> before
> > the leasee ever noticed them to swapping out the entire pack,
> without
> > the user being any the wiser.
> >
> > > What kind of EV do you own Roger?
> >
> > Not sure why that is relevant, but mine is a 120V Suzuki Forsa
> (Chevy
> > Sprint) conversion presently loaded with YTs. I suppose I should
> be
> > cheering you on to go ahead and cook a set of YTs so the rest of us
>
> > can learn on your dime what to do with our packs ;^>, but I can't
> help
> > but caution you when everything we know about lead acid batteries
> > suggests that elevated temperatures are at odds with maximising
> battery
> life.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roger.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What you really need is a car with 150 miles range. Forget the 75 miles.
(unless you have a way of driving 25mph and can take 3 hours to do the trip)
Drive a gas/biodiesel/CNG on the weekend and feel good that you got to drive
electric during the week. It's the short range stuff that really pollutes.
The right tool for the right job. An electric car is not the right tool
unless you have lithium batteries and a way to charge them when you get
there. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Baertsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: Porsche 911 Was: How many amps driving my EV?
My daily commute is very short but I do 75 miles one way on the weekend,
so the small pack is not really an option. I talked with the guy in
Florida and he said that at 3000 lbs the handling was "fair". He didn't
recommend going any higher. He was using 22 50lb batteries, adding one
more battery had a noticeable effect on handling.
I agree that 1000 lbs in a 944 should be great.
Dave Cover wrote:
Behalf Of Robert Baertsch
Any Porsche experts out there? I hate to sell this car.
-Robert
Robert
I'm doing a 944, similar but different. My reasons should apply to your
911.
The car is well made, it will handle the additional load of a reasonable
pack. I'm planning on
around 1000 lbs of cells.
Very good brakes!
Very aerodynamic.
Reasonable weight, I hope to be under 3000 lbs when complete. Not the
lightest, but...
Fully galvanized body. Will not rust out from under me, even in New
England. (At least not in the
next decade.)
It's a car that will attract attention, and I plan on being an EV
evangelist.
I can replace almost any part I need from eBay for a good price.
It's a car I will like driving. Although, getting in and out of a low car
is getting tough on my
old joints.
If the body is in good shape, I'd go for it. But I would cut back on the
pack. Do you know the GVW
of the car? See how it works with a smaller pack before you load it down.
What are you looking
for, range? performance? Do you plan on using it for a daily commuter?
I have a 34 mile round trip I'm shooting for, should be within my reach.
I'm keeping the clutch
and transaxle. There's a guy down in Florida whose done at least one 911,
you should be able to
find him on the net.
Good luck
Dave Cover (in CT)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wouldn't it be nice if someone could produce an affordable fuel cell you could
plug propane right
into? 10Kw would do. If I really want to dream, how about one that would take
any kind of fossil
fuel. Somebody must have spiked my coffee, I must be out of my mind.
Dave Cover
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Cor van de water said
> snip
>
> >It does not make environmental sense (a genset
> >pollutes at least ten times as bad as a regular
> >car
> snip
>
>
> Does that have to be that way? I want to make a gentrailer to extend my range
> for those out of
> town trips.
> I was thinking of either a 400hz aircraft generator or a PM generator for the
> DC end direct to
> the pack since every conversion costs and generatig power is already one
> conversion. (Although,
> I have an idea about that)
>
> What kind of motor can I get to run this effiently, can it run on the propane
> tanks that can be
> found at orchard supply and RV places?
> sterling? turbine, piston, rotory, atkinson? I mean, what is avail in low
> emmision small motors?
>
> How about a newer, smog equiped motorcycle or a little 3cyl geo motor.
>
> My biggest problem is the drive I want is 100 miles ending in a 2000-3000
> foot climb, that is
> some serious amps.
>
>
> The Idea : since most internal combustion engines are only 25% effient, the
> other 75% is given
> off in heat. That means there is more energy available from the exhaust heat
> than is avil from
> the shaft. Maybe we can come up with an inexpensive method($,weight,space) to
> convert this heat
> to power, perhaps a thermocouple battery, Peltiers are so expensive but they
> would be a heck of
> a way to charge the added batteries in a hybrid :-)
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:24 AM 4/6/2006, you wrote:
They haven't produced the B version in quite some time, as it was
replaced by the C, which has better low speed/high
current internal protection
Does that mean they have different rampup? I have noticed a lot of
people don't like them as much as the B model. LR>..........
My understanding is that the C version came about because 1221Bs were
being used in S10 conversions (too heavy for the 1221) without
clutches, and at very low rpm (inexperienced drivers) they were
burning up. The C model switches at a lower frequency at low
rpm. This is the cause of the "squeal" that people complain
about. I don't see it as a problem - just don't spend any time at
very low rpm, which is inefficient anyway.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
I had a thought on DC regen. As far as I understand, one of the main
problems with regeneration using a DC motor is improper brush timing -
often advanced, resulting in arcing.
How about if the motor was designed with an extra-long commutator, and
an extra set of regen brushes were installed? They could be set at the
most advantageous timing position for regen.
I'm interested to hear if this would work, and if not, why.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now I have my vehicle back on the road it's time to re-vist my old BMS and
computer display. I miss the PC display and it's time to think hard about
Mk2!
Anyway here are some new AC upgrade pics if you are interested.
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 027.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 026.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 024.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 023.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 022.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 021.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 020.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 019.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 016.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 015.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 014.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 013.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 012.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 011.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 009.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 007.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 006.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 005.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 004.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 003.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 002.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 001.jpg
Peter UK
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/302 - Release Date: 05/04/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you have spaces in your filenames by any chance?
-Mike
On 4/6/06, Peter Perkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Now I have my vehicle back on the road it's time to re-vist my old BMS and
> computer display. I miss the PC display and it's time to think hard about
> Mk2!
>
> Anyway here are some new AC upgrade pics if you are interested.
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 027.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 026.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 024.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 023.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 022.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 021.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 020.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 019.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 016.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 015.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 014.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 013.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 012.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 011.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 009.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 007.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 006.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 005.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 004.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 003.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 002.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 001.jpg
>
> Peter UK
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/302 - Release Date: 05/04/2006
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These urls should work.
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20027.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20026.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20024.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20023.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20022.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20021.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20020.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20019.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20016.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20015.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20014.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20013.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20012.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20011.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20009.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20007.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20006.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20005.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20004.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20003.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20002.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal%20001.jpg
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Beautiful!! Well Done!!
Mike
--- Peter Perkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Now I have my vehicle back on the road it's time to re-vist my old
> BMS and
> computer display. I miss the PC display and it's time to think hard
> about
> Mk2!
>
> Anyway here are some new AC upgrade pics if you are interested.
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 027.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 026.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 024.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 023.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 022.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 021.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 020.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 019.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 016.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 015.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 014.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 013.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 012.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 011.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 009.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 007.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 006.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 005.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 004.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 003.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 002.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 001.jpg
>
> Peter UK
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/302 - Release Date:
> 05/04/2006
>
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter,
I had to add http:/ to each url to make them work.
Tell me about your battery heating system. How many watts, volts it
uses, and the controls for it. I'm on a quest for thermal management.
Thank,
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Peter Perkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Now I have my vehicle back on the road it's time to re-vist my old
BMS and
> computer display. I miss the PC display and it's time to think hard
about
> Mk2!
>
> Anyway here are some new AC upgrade pics if you are interested.
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 027.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 026.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 024.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 023.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 022.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 021.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 020.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 019.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 016.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 015.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 014.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 013.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 012.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 011.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 009.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 007.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 006.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 005.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 004.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 003.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 002.jpg
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk/ac/acfinal 001.jpg
>
> Peter UK
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/302 - Release Date:
05/04/2006
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> This always puzzled me:
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
>> If you want more horsepower (for climbing a hill or accellerating), a
>> 96v pack only gives you one choice; upshift (like from 2nd to 3rd gear).
>> Note that this is the *opposite* of what you'd do with an ICE.
>> Upshifting slows the motor down, which makes it draw more current. For
>> 2x the horsepower, you need 2x the current; 96v at 380 amps.
>
> No, Lee, I think this is not correct. The power is torque * RPM,
> and torque is current (~linear dependency), so when you upshift you
> cause motor to draw twice as much current (produce twice torque)
> but multiplied by half as much RPM now, it still totals the same power.
>
Except that shifting from 2nd to 3rd does NOT cut your RPM in half, at
least not on any transmission I've seen.
It might double your current though, because series wound motors don't
have a linear torque to RPM curve (that's why it's called a curve, it
bends).
Cutting the RPM by 20% might cause a 100% increase in current draw, at a
given voltage.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
