EV Digest 5360
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Chevy Luv burnouts?
by DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Milwaukee Tool Battery
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: a few newby questions
by "Dale Curren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: DMM Question
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Monster Garage
by J Z <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: DMM Question
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
by DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Monster Garage
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Fwd: Monster Garage
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Effect of heating batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Milwaukee Tool Battery
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Monster Garage
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Chevy Luv burnouts?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Effect of heating batteries -- Many Thanks!
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Monster Garage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Milwaukee Tool Battery
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> > From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> I considered a Luv before I found my 65 Datsun.
> It looked to be a good candidate for conversion.
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall it was built by Isuzu.
I know it was a Japanese company but not which one.
> I picked up a Haynes repair manual on it at a flea market.
> If you end up finding one, let me know and I will send it to you.
I appreciate the offer but I already have one.
> Dennis
> Elsberry, MO
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:34 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Chevy Luv burnouts?
>
> DM3 wrote:
>
> > Has anyone converted a 1979 chevy luv pu for drag racing?
>
> I think it will work fine.
>
> As far as I know, that particular model truck hasn't been converted yet:
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/chevrolet.html
>
> Don't be afraid to be the first.
Actually, this truck was converted for the races in Arizona in 1991 or 92.
It sat in the Arizona sun for 10 years until I picked it up. I am
debating (with myself) whether to put it on the road, set it up for dirt
track, or take it to the strip. No matter what I do, I want to pick up a
used Zilla for it.
>
> > was wondering how much of the stock drive train can be used.
>
> For drag racing with good tires? None of it. The tranny, drive shaft,
> and
> differential will fail if you have enough power from the motor and good
> enough traction. If you never have good traction, then it might(should)
> take it.
>
> It's not a big deal though if the stock parts aren't up to it. Are you
> going to run a transmission or direct drive? This way you can get a
> good
> transmission or forgo the transmission. In either case, a custom drive
> shaft will be needed. There are at least four companies that can fab
> you a
> custom width differential(Ford 9"?) with correctly positioned spring
> mounts
> that will bolt right in
I would like to keep a tranny but I need to find out what people smarter
than me have used in these trucks for racing.
I am sure a shortened ford 9 inch would work fine if I need it.
Thanks for the tips,
Jimmy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: Milwaukee Tool Battery
I have 4 that work.. and
couple of Dead ones.. Nope.. I know what's inside....
I can't just show all of Zick's tricks.
Madman
There probably isn't anything very mysterious in the batteries. There
probably are seven 18650 cells, the fuel gauge and circuitry to prevent
overdischarge and cell reversal. I hope you learn some useful info
about these batteries and find an interesting use for them.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
** Reply to message from Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Wed, 12 Apr 2006
11:46:58 -0700 (PDT)
back to the other question - series vs shunt - My present motor has four cable
connections - two for the armature and two for the fields. In pictures of
other vehicles, I have seen a short piece of cable between one of the armature
and field terminals, thus making a series motor. Is this advisable and/or
acceptable?
> Thanks for clearing that up. I just got the last parts I needed to start
> building and I wanted to
> get the timing right first. I'm not planning on racing (too much) and I'll be
> using the
> transmission for reverse. A little advanced timing should be appropriate.
>
> Dave Cover
>
> --- Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hey Dave
> >
> > First off a brush is in nuetral when it alligns in the middle of the pole
> > shoe magnetics. If
> > you're looking at the drive end of your motor (shaft end) take the pole
> > shoe bolt heads and line
> > them up as you look toward the brushes. You should find that those bolt
> > heads are in line with
> > where the brushes hit the commutator. Again looking from the drive end and
> > your motor needs to
> > run CCWDE then you would rotate the comm plate CWDE (opposit of rotation)
> > to achieve advance.
> > The brush hits the comm bar advance of nuetral. Like I stated if the
> > brushes are in line with
> > your pole shoe bolt heads then the motor is in nuetral and is the best
> > easiest way for me to
> > explain how to tell if ones motor has been timed or not.
> > Hope this helps
> > Jim Husted
> > Hi-Torque Electric
> >
> > Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --- James Massey wrote:
> > >
> > > Brush advancing is to rotate the brushes from the neutral point (where
> > > they
> > > sit as best for equal power both rotational directions) to a point where
> > > the neutral point moves to under high forward power. Rich Rudman keeps
> > > saying "10 degrees for street, 13 degrees for drag racing". Series motors
> > > are happiest with the brush timing advanced. Seperately excited tends to
> > > burn their brushes when braking if they have been advanced.
> > >
> >
> > In spite of how much the topic of brush timing has been discussed, can
> > somoene just answer a
> > simple question? Does advancing the timing mean moving the brushes OPPOSITE
> > to the direction of
> > motor rotation or the SAME as the direction of motor rotation?
> >
> > I know it's obvious to everyone else, but...
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Dave Cover
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
> > starting at
> > 1¢/min.
> >
> >
Dale Curren
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Don, John and Jody
On Tuesday, April 11, 2006, at 11:35 PM, Don Cameron wrote:
Check the fuse. On some of my meters if the fuse is blown, the meter
will
wander all over the place.
Don
Checking the fuse was one of the things that had me checking the
resistance readings in the first place. When checking the 10 amp fuse
my readings were wandering.
On Wednesday, April 12, 2006, at 08:34 PM, Jody Dewey wrote:
the question I have for you John is are you touching JUST the leads
together
or are you touching them with your fingers and squeezing them together?
I knew operator incompetence was playing a role in there somewhere.
After some more playing I have another question.
Following the directions for testing the fuse (from a manual I
downloaded) I notice that if I use the red lead to test the fuses I get
relatively stable reading, however switching the leads and testing with
the black one my reading are all over the scale.
Does this mean my black lead needs replacing, if so do I need Fluke
brand leads
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Rich,
Yea, I exposed myself. I decided I needed a good beating and wanted to thank
Shawn and You personally for your help.
First, I'll clarify my little "not in my lifetime" comment. The question was
about commercially available Lion EVs, like what you would see come out of
Ford, GM, or Toyota. In order for this to happen it's not the technology of
batteries, chargers, etc. that is lacking. You guys have proved that over and
over again with everyone of your vehicles you build. It's the infrastructure
that has to change in order to adopted these into everyday lives. Think back
to when the light bulb was invented (hmmm not sure if you are that old
Madman?), contrary to what people think, Edison was not the inventor and did
not even have the first patents on the light bulb. So why did he get credit
for it? Because he created the infrastructure needed to get this great new
technology into a usable form that would meet the needs of the customers. The
innovation of the light bulb in it's self did not alone meet these needs
without everything else that needed to go with it. Hence the
company GE was born and the power distribution centers created. Now, in the
commercially available EV industry, there is obviously something missing. So
what is it that's missing? I'm not sure what it is because I haven't looked
into it closely. I do know that it's not because of lacking speed, power, or
even the perception of an electric vehicle. Just look at how well all your EVs
perform. The best thing to do is start looking at the core user needs and
figure out which ones aren't being met. I am definitely not against EVs. I
would love to see everything in the world go electric (I mean I am a EE ya
know).
Now, as for the car and MG. Everyone just has to keep in mind that it's TV
and you can't just watch this episode and understand the whole MG philosophy
that made it a hit. If we had used ideal parts in an ideal environment with
our team we would have had a car converted in what...two days Madman?
but...that would not have made for good TV and the show wouldn't have even
aired. As for seeing the car again Madman...have faith in me young Jedi ;-).
I haven't let you down yet...flashbulbs right?
Keep in touch.
Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yo Zick!!!
You dare expose your self to the EV crowd...
Man I warned ya!!
Tell us we will get to racing again.. this time with some calm cool racing
efforts.
I have the breakers....Need a set of BFG Drag Radials
And we need a solid torque converter...We can launch harder without the 3800
Stall that is in there.
Umm Shawn.. Jon... we really need to tell the Story behind "JeagerBomber"
Zick... And Tequila Jacks... I did a voice interview with Visforvoltage Ken
Trough. You and Shawn need to tell your side of it.
Why it is that after 4 drinks Rich gets the Keys a hour later...
I turn Green they get messed up... I dry out...we get batteries moved and
charged... Yes we can stuff batteries in the MG car with most of the team
Hammered.
All of them in your office... that's gotta be one Big office....
I am really Glad we could do this for Milwaukee... alot of us out here on
the EV list would like to make the Message a bit clearer.. and get you guys
to run the car as a EV.
First...Lion powered EVs are going to happen soon, and many are trying right
now. Keep in mind the T-zero was Lion powered. About half a dozzen folks
here on the list have done or are doing Lion
powered rigs. So... I our life time like this year.. there will many more
Lion EVs.
You tell me I can drive and repower the MG Car.. I will be there it's that
simple.
And... we need to get through folks minds that the Car we did.. was not our
choice or even a very good one at that. Clearly we need a better way to
charge all them Lions.. but Well we are kinda stuck on the single charger
single batter block. How do we Address 384 Bricks???? without blistering
finger tips.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "J Z"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
> Hello Everyone,
> This is my first time posting here on the list, but I have been
following the forum since January (when I first met Shawn and Rich). I'd
like to first start off by saying it's a great site and forum and am quite
impressed with some of the conversations that go on here. I would also like
to take the opportunity to thank Shawn, Rich, Ron, and Danny for all the
work they did during the build. There is NO WAY the build would have been a
success without any one of them. Everyone had a key part to complete in
order to get the car to move. Great job everyone!!!!!! A lot of skill and
hard work...and some just dumb luck, made it a great show.
>
> Now, let me give you the feedback from a lot of Milwaukee employees.
There was basically two comments...1) Everyone that I talked to was very
very surprised that a EV could go that fast!! 2) They gained a huge respect
for the hazards involved and the care and time needed to build such an
electric monster.
> Now, this is from people that have NO exposure to Ev's. Great PR for
the EV industry.
>
> Ryan, to answer your questions below, cause I'm sure Shawn and Rich's
fingers are getting tired:
> 1) The challenge came up unexpectedly (due to the car making an
appearance at the Builders Show in Orlando) and it was hard enough to get
the team back together in time to charge and reload the batteries. Plus
West Coast still had to paint the dam thing.
> 2) The parking lot "parading" actually turned out better then I thought
it would. At that point, do to a wiring issue, we were running only half
power. Which we were not too happy with but it turned out to be a good
thing because the tires were rubbing on the body. If we would have been at
full power, I'm sure the tires would have blown. We got lucky on that
one...right guys!!!
> 3) The tires...we didn't have a say in. That was what Jesse brought us
so that is what we put on the car. The tires were the least of our worries
at that point.
> 4) As for the car as it stands today, it draws a very good crowd where
ever it goes. Everyone is impressed that it went so fast and can't believe
it is powered by tool batteries. It is one of the most successful brand
events Milwaukee has done. So far the car has not run since the last
event...butttttttt...you never know...there still might be a few more races
in the beast...right Shawn!!
> Right now I can't seem to get the car out of Marketing's hands cause I
know I would really like to see it go 100mph. All the batteries and
chargers are still in my office so the fuel is ready!!!
>
> Ok....sorry so long winded. I'll stop talking now.
> Jon "Jagarbomber" Zick
>
>
>
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> I liked the show and was glad to see it and that the car was
> completed. I've seen every Monster Garage episode ever made, and I
> was completely unaware of all the goading that apparently went on with
> the film crew, etc. Maybe since this was the last episode(so I've
> heard..), they went all out and didn't hold back(nothing to lose?)?
>
> Even though "hindsight is always 20/20", just for future reference in
> case something similar ever arises:
>
> What was the situation where they wouldn't let you take the car to the
> track in the days or weeks before the race to dial it in?
>
> It would have been nice if the power would have been cranked up so
> when Jesse was parading around the parking lot on the first drive, he
> could have been doing burnouts and donuts and really been able to show
> what electrics can do..
>
> Also it would have been nice if some real tires, or at least some
> decent back tires could have been used so that car would have ran at
> least consistent 13's and beat that Mopar every time... Amazing it
> did run that 14.5 after all those previous runs it had been through
> though! Those batteries had a lot more in them then I thought they
> would have. (now if we could buy those batteries at a fair price...)
> Considering the weight of that car, and all the wheel spin(time
> wasted) and STILL running a 14.5(remember all the previous runs on
> that charge), that car had a LOT more potential. It would be nice if
> Milwaukee would dial it in and get some really nice times from it.
>
> The good news is, there are some really serious street beasts in the
> works, and a certain electric rail car is about to set some more
> records...
>
> A new generation of high performance electrics.. not to mention the
> potential new age of batteries on the verge of being a reality. The
> future of EV's is bright. Remember this Jesse, the business you own
> and run revolves around the availability of gasoline. How many
> Choppers will you sell if there is no gasoline? When you get bored,
> consider building an electric Chopper with the uncertain and
> unguaranteed future in mind..
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We have replaced them with leads off other brands - most of them are
somewhat interchangeble.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: DMM Question
> Thanks Don, John and Jody
>
> On Tuesday, April 11, 2006, at 11:35 PM, Don Cameron wrote:
> > Check the fuse. On some of my meters if the fuse is blown, the meter
> > will
> > wander all over the place.
> > Don
> Checking the fuse was one of the things that had me checking the
> resistance readings in the first place. When checking the 10 amp fuse
> my readings were wandering.
>
> On Wednesday, April 12, 2006, at 08:34 PM, Jody Dewey wrote:
> > the question I have for you John is are you touching JUST the leads
> > together
> > or are you touching them with your fingers and squeezing them together?
> I knew operator incompetence was playing a role in there somewhere.
>
>
> After some more playing I have another question.
>
> Following the directions for testing the fuse (from a manual I
> downloaded) I notice that if I use the red lead to test the fuses I get
> relatively stable reading, however switching the leads and testing with
> the black one my reading are all over the scale.
>
> Does this mean my black lead needs replacing, if so do I need Fluke
> brand leads
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Remember NASCAR has been around since 1947 and they have been in the
200mph range in the last ~15 years. Indy has been in the 200mph range for
30 years but they started in 1911.
In 1994 or 95 Billy Roe in a converted Indy car broke 100 mph at PIR
(Phoenix International raceway). It is a one mile track and seemed to be
just right for an E-Indy car. I will never forget the aroma of something
really hot (motor insulation) as he blew past me. He would go 3 to 5
laps, pit and swap 2 packs in under 15 seconds. They were pushing the
envelope with motors and without Lions! If those races continued through
today, with Lions, I am convinced we would be seeing E-Indy cars doing 140
- pushing 150!! They were spending 1 million on a car back then. The
money dried up 2 weeks after DC (washington) deregulated the electric
power companies in 1998 - all the power companies pulled sponsorship of
the race simultaneously, ENRON took it from there.
I have thought about an E-Nascar for some time, since it is a tube (chrome
molly) frame and wide compared to an open wheel car, it would be easy and
fun to set one up for left turn racing especially with a Lion pack. The
hard part would be swapping the pack, this would be a must in the early
days. On a half mile track you could swap every 10 laps, I think a 50
mile race would work well and be very exciting.
We just need a Lion sponsor----Anyone want to do some circle track
racing???
Jimmy
> > From: "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
> Remember that the NASCAR cars have nothing in common with the stock car
> other than vaguely looking like it. They use a special body on a custom
>
> chassis, so should weigh much less than the stock version. You should
> be
> able to seal up the grill to get better aerodynamics since you won't
> generate near the heat that an ICE does. If you watch NASCAR, notice
> that
> they partially seal up the grill with tape and only take off what's
> necessary to keep it from overheating. First, you will need to get the
> car
> you will be using, then go from there. You'll probably won't need any
> more
> horsepower than the 100 mph drag racers, but will need to go over 5
> miles
> (assuming you're on a 2.5 mile oval, I don't remember what Daytona is),
> so te: Thu, 13
> will need a lot more battery, and may have overheating problems the
> quarter
> milers don't have. It shouldn't be too difficult if you have plenty of
> money to throw at it. If you have a choice of retired cars, get the one
>
> with the best aero.
>
> Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seems like a torque converter is not really the answer in this app.
Why not just a drive spud and an either an external acuumulator with a check
valve or an electric pump to get the pressure up, I believe Rod used a
clutch master cylinder and pedal to pump up his tranny. I might even have a
suitable aircraft pump here laying around the Junque Yard. David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
Yo Zick!!!
we need a solid torque converter...We can launch harder without the 3800
Stall that is in there.
All of them in your office... that's gotta be one Big office....
You tell me I can drive and re-power the MG Car.. I will be there it's
that
simple.
Add this torque converter to your battery collection in your office so
it will be ready for when the car sees the track next:
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10002&storeId=10001&categoryId=18147&parentCategoryId=10723&langId=-1
PN# 741050
http://tciauto.com/circle_track/circle_track_converters.htm
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 4/10/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It was a combination of the both. The engine was turning the motor thru to
the drive line, while I could have the motor regen or have the motor come on
line when the engine vacuum drop under 15 in.hg.
If the battery ampere went above 400 amps than a current relay would engage
a the electric clutch to the motor and the engine rpm would increase from
500 rpm to the motor rpm that is control by a vacuum control accelerator
system.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Monster Garage
> On 12 Apr 2006 at 14:48, Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> > I install a v-6
> > engine that was couple with a in and out clutch to the electric motor.
> > The accelerator control system could auto select between the engine or
> > electric or combination of the both which is a series type of hybrid.
>
> I would call that a parallel hybrid.
>
> The way I learned it, a series hybrid has a fueled source of electrical
> energy,
> typically an engine driven generator (genset). A parallel hybrid couples
> the
> engine directly to the drivetrain. Your setup sounds like the latter.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There were some recent discussions on ACP heating their AGM batteries,
and the NREL study that showed greater cycle life with hot Optimas. I
decided to run a quick experiment.
Battery: a 1996 Hawker G12V38Ah10C, removed about 2 years ago from a
U.S. Electricar S10. New, it delivered about 30 amphours at 25 amps, 25
deg.C. At the start of this test, it delivered about 7.5 amphours at 25
amps. In other words, it's BAD! (That's why the pack was replaced).
Charger: a constant-voltage transformer based charger, that current
limits at 25 amps, and voltage limits at 15 volts.
Load: a 0.45 ohm power resistor that draws 25 amps at 12 volts.
Cycler: Charges battery until 14.97 volts at 0.3 amps. Discharges
battery until 10.5 volts. Repeats automatically.
Metering: an E-meter with RS-232 port. Data logged on a PC, using a
program I wrote.
Heater: a 50-watt battery heating mat. Battery was sitting on a cement
floor, with the heating mat wrapped around all four sides, and the top
left open to the air. The ambient temperature was 68 deg.F.
I ran several cycles to establish what the battery did at the start.
Then I turned on the heater, and ran some cycles "hot". Then I turned
the heater back off and ran some cycles to show the ending results.
Here is a summary of the results. For each charge/discharge cycle, I
recorded the +amphours at the end of the charge cycle, the -amphours at
the end of the discharge cycle, and the battery temperature.
temp. charge discharge
cycle deg.F amphrs amphrs comments
----- ----- ------ ------ ----------------------------------------
1 70.9 +0.94 -7.35 baseline performance at room temperature
2 71.1 +0.76 -7.28
3 71.9 +0.76 -7.29 consistently low capacity
4 heater on; no data take during warmup
5 107.2 +1.29 -8.65
6 110.5 +4.21 -11.7
7 112.3 +0.63 -12.3
8 (no data)
9 114.8 +1.76 -14.2
10 117.2 +3.36 -15.8
11 118.5 +3.04 -16.7 capacity seems to have peaked
12 114.7 1.57 -16.5
13 98.0 +0.75 -14.4 heater off
14 86.7 +2.22 -13.0
15 77.9 +1.94 -12.7
16 75.1 +1.92 -12.5
17 73.8 +1.83 -12.2
18 73.4 +1.71 -12.0 capacity higher, but wandering down
1. You can see why battery testing is difficult. There is considerable
variation between cycles even when nothing is changed between them.
2. Each cycle took 6-7 hours. It takes many cycles (days!) for the
battery to stabilize at a new temperature.
3. Note the dramatic increase in amphour capacity caused by high
battery temperature; more than 2:1. This very old, very tired
battery got back up to 56% of its new capacity just by being
heated rather modestly.
4. Half the increase in capacity *remained* after returning to the
lower temperature. But other tests indicated that the battery
will go back down to its original 7ah capacity if it is allowed
to sit idle for even a couple days. (I'll leave it idle to verify).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I could use about a thousand for my van :-). Throw in some for Dennis' CE
and Milwaukee could be the sponsor of not only the worlds fastest electric
drag car but the rig that tows it to the track!! Actually not kidding, not
that I am going to get my hopes up. GL with getting something done here tho.
David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: Milwaukee Tool Battery
Tom Shay wrote:
Has anyone seen detailed information about these batteries
(dimensions, weight, ampere and amp-hour capacity, etc)?
At the end of one of the isles at Home Depot, there is a Milwaukee 28
Volt display and you can actually physically handle the batteries and
chargers there. It's a nice little battery. It's a shame about the
price though..
Let's say we all had several hundred of these batteries in our cars.
Is it possible to charge them in series string of 300+ volts using a
single on-board charger?
Is Milwaukee interested in sponsoring a few cars for R&D and
promotional efforts in the field of Electric Cars? They could become
a major supplier in this market and even offer lithium to OEM's
currently making hybrids(which are only one step away from being
purely electric..).
Send Rich Rudman some so he can power both his cars and develop a
charger for these batteries. See if Dennis and Wayland want any.
Anyone else have a vehicle that could seriously benefit from having
these batteries and could provide promotional, marketing, or R&D
efforts to Milwaukee in exchange for them?
Does Milwaukee want to be the battery responsible for the first
electric running 7's in the 1/4? How about 6's? Or do you want
another battery manufacturer's name to be listed when these records
are set(7's this summer. 6's soon after. Could be sooner with your
help! And it won't cost you very much either!)
See if he's interested...
http://www.currenteliminator.net/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Chapman wrote:
> Seems like a torque converter is not really the answer in this app.
> Why not just a
The one I linked to only LOOKS like a torque converter...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
DM3 wrote:
> I would like to keep a tranny but I need to find out what people smarter
> than me have used in these trucks for racing.
Do you want an automatic or a manual?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee I am bowing in your general direction. Many thanks for performing
the experiement and sharing the great data!
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There were some recent discussions on ACP heating their AGM
> batteries,
> and the NREL study that showed greater cycle life with hot Optimas.
> I
> decided to run a quick experiment.
>
> Battery: a 1996 Hawker G12V38Ah10C, removed about 2 years ago from
> a
> U.S. Electricar S10. New, it delivered about 30 amphours at 25
> amps, 25
> deg.C. At the start of this test, it delivered about 7.5 amphours
> at 25
> amps. In other words, it's BAD! (That's why the pack was replaced).
>
> Charger: a constant-voltage transformer based charger, that current
> limits at 25 amps, and voltage limits at 15 volts.
>
> Load: a 0.45 ohm power resistor that draws 25 amps at 12 volts.
>
> Cycler: Charges battery until 14.97 volts at 0.3 amps. Discharges
> battery until 10.5 volts. Repeats automatically.
>
> Metering: an E-meter with RS-232 port. Data logged on a PC, using a
> program I wrote.
>
> Heater: a 50-watt battery heating mat. Battery was sitting on a
> cement
> floor, with the heating mat wrapped around all four sides, and the
> top
> left open to the air. The ambient temperature was 68 deg.F.
>
> I ran several cycles to establish what the battery did at the
> start.
> Then I turned on the heater, and ran some cycles "hot". Then I
> turned
> the heater back off and ran some cycles to show the ending results.
>
> Here is a summary of the results. For each charge/discharge cycle,
> I
> recorded the +amphours at the end of the charge cycle, the
> -amphours at
> the end of the discharge cycle, and the battery temperature.
>
> temp. charge discharge
> cycle deg.F amphrs amphrs comments
> ----- ----- ------ ------ ----------------------------------------
> 1 70.9 +0.94 -7.35 baseline performance at room temperature
> 2 71.1 +0.76 -7.28
> 3 71.9 +0.76 -7.29 consistently low capacity
>
> 4 heater on; no data take during warmup
> 5 107.2 +1.29 -8.65
> 6 110.5 +4.21 -11.7
> 7 112.3 +0.63 -12.3
> 8 (no data)
> 9 114.8 +1.76 -14.2
> 10 117.2 +3.36 -15.8
> 11 118.5 +3.04 -16.7 capacity seems to have peaked
> 12 114.7 1.57 -16.5
>
> 13 98.0 +0.75 -14.4 heater off
> 14 86.7 +2.22 -13.0
> 15 77.9 +1.94 -12.7
> 16 75.1 +1.92 -12.5
> 17 73.8 +1.83 -12.2
> 18 73.4 +1.71 -12.0 capacity higher, but wandering down
>
> 1. You can see why battery testing is difficult. There is
> considerable
> variation between cycles even when nothing is changed between
> them.
>
> 2. Each cycle took 6-7 hours. It takes many cycles (days!) for the
> battery to stabilize at a new temperature.
>
> 3. Note the dramatic increase in amphour capacity caused by high
> battery temperature; more than 2:1. This very old, very tired
> battery got back up to 56% of its new capacity just by being
> heated rather modestly.
>
> 4. Half the increase in capacity *remained* after returning to the
> lower temperature. But other tests indicated that the battery
> will go back down to its original 7ah capacity if it is allowed
> to sit idle for even a couple days. (I'll leave it idle to
> verify).
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Yer Welcome for the help on getting the MG car out the door.. and well
without you it would not have happened.
It's good to see you as Pro EV, But needing a little adjusting from the
congregation.
I just got back from my shop building one more 5Kw chunk of the EV
infrastructure...I am building small blocks and I like to think it's part of
the foundation that is about to really take shape.
Yea the funny part of the Deadline on the build is the 5 build team members
would have worked around the clock in 2 days and gotten it running. On a
long distance Build... 8 hour shifts are for Whinps.
We all could have worked a LOT more in a day if they let us. The tossed us
out Early on Day 1 and 2. We pleaded to not have them do it again since Jon
and I knew the crunch was going to be the Battery racks. Talk about pulling
a design out of hat... Hey Zick don't folks pay us a LOT to do just that
kinda thing in our day Job???
Flash Bulbs... I wonder where they really light up....
Master ... I have buildt my own BMS.. I am ready for the next battle.
How can we serially scan your V28 packs and have them light up the charge
path... on command, one or two at a time.....
I have been Scheming...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "J Z" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
> Hey Rich,
> Yea, I exposed myself. I decided I needed a good beating and wanted to
thank Shawn and You personally for your help.
> First, I'll clarify my little "not in my lifetime" comment. The
question was about commercially available Lion EVs, like what you would see
come out of Ford, GM, or Toyota. In order for this to happen it's not the
technology of batteries, chargers, etc. that is lacking. You guys have
proved that over and over again with everyone of your vehicles you build.
It's the infrastructure that has to change in order to adopted these into
everyday lives. Think back to when the light bulb was invented (hmmm not
sure if you are that old Madman?), contrary to what people think, Edison was
not the inventor and did not even have the first patents on the light bulb.
So why did he get credit for it? Because he created the infrastructure
needed to get this great new technology into a usable form that would meet
the needs of the customers. The innovation of the light bulb in it's self
did not alone meet these needs without everything else that needed to go
with it. Hence the
> company GE was born and the power distribution centers created. Now, in
the commercially available EV industry, there is obviously something
missing. So what is it that's missing? I'm not sure what it is because I
haven't looked into it closely. I do know that it's not because of lacking
speed, power, or even the perception of an electric vehicle. Just look at
how well all your EVs perform. The best thing to do is start looking at the
core user needs and figure out which ones aren't being met. I am definitely
not against EVs. I would love to see everything in the world go electric (I
mean I am a EE ya know).
>
> Now, as for the car and MG. Everyone just has to keep in mind that it's
TV and you can't just watch this episode and understand the whole MG
philosophy that made it a hit. If we had used ideal parts in an ideal
environment with our team we would have had a car converted in what...two
days Madman? but...that would not have made for good TV and the show
wouldn't have even aired. As for seeing the car again Madman...have faith
in me young Jedi ;-). I haven't let you down yet...flashbulbs right?
>
> Keep in touch.
>
>
>
> Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yo Zick!!!
> You dare expose your self to the EV crowd...
> Man I warned ya!!
>
> Tell us we will get to racing again.. this time with some calm cool racing
> efforts.
> I have the breakers....Need a set of BFG Drag Radials
> And we need a solid torque converter...We can launch harder without the
3800
> Stall that is in there.
>
> Umm Shawn.. Jon... we really need to tell the Story behind "JeagerBomber"
> Zick... And Tequila Jacks... I did a voice interview with Visforvoltage
Ken
> Trough. You and Shawn need to tell your side of it.
> Why it is that after 4 drinks Rich gets the Keys a hour later...
> I turn Green they get messed up... I dry out...we get batteries moved and
> charged... Yes we can stuff batteries in the MG car with most of the team
> Hammered.
>
> All of them in your office... that's gotta be one Big office....
>
> I am really Glad we could do this for Milwaukee... alot of us out here on
> the EV list would like to make the Message a bit clearer.. and get you
guys
> to run the car as a EV.
> First...Lion powered EVs are going to happen soon, and many are trying
right
> now. Keep in mind the T-zero was Lion powered. About half a dozzen folks
> here on the list have done or are doing Lion
> powered rigs. So... I our life time like this year.. there will many more
> Lion EVs.
> You tell me I can drive and repower the MG Car.. I will be there it's that
> simple.
>
> And... we need to get through folks minds that the Car we did.. was not
our
> choice or even a very good one at that. Clearly we need a better way to
> charge all them Lions.. but Well we are kinda stuck on the single charger
> single batter block. How do we Address 384 Bricks???? without blistering
> finger tips.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro.
> Madman
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "J Z"
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 5:51 AM
> Subject: Re: Monster Garage
>
>
> > Hello Everyone,
> > This is my first time posting here on the list, but I have been
> following the forum since January (when I first met Shawn and Rich). I'd
> like to first start off by saying it's a great site and forum and am quite
> impressed with some of the conversations that go on here. I would also
like
> to take the opportunity to thank Shawn, Rich, Ron, and Danny for all the
> work they did during the build. There is NO WAY the build would have been
a
> success without any one of them. Everyone had a key part to complete in
> order to get the car to move. Great job everyone!!!!!! A lot of skill and
> hard work...and some just dumb luck, made it a great show.
> >
> > Now, let me give you the feedback from a lot of Milwaukee employees.
> There was basically two comments...1) Everyone that I talked to was very
> very surprised that a EV could go that fast!! 2) They gained a huge
respect
> for the hazards involved and the care and time needed to build such an
> electric monster.
> > Now, this is from people that have NO exposure to Ev's. Great PR for
> the EV industry.
> >
> > Ryan, to answer your questions below, cause I'm sure Shawn and Rich's
> fingers are getting tired:
> > 1) The challenge came up unexpectedly (due to the car making an
> appearance at the Builders Show in Orlando) and it was hard enough to get
> the team back together in time to charge and reload the batteries. Plus
> West Coast still had to paint the dam thing.
> > 2) The parking lot "parading" actually turned out better then I thought
> it would. At that point, do to a wiring issue, we were running only half
> power. Which we were not too happy with but it turned out to be a good
> thing because the tires were rubbing on the body. If we would have been at
> full power, I'm sure the tires would have blown. We got lucky on that
> one...right guys!!!
> > 3) The tires...we didn't have a say in. That was what Jesse brought us
> so that is what we put on the car. The tires were the least of our worries
> at that point.
> > 4) As for the car as it stands today, it draws a very good crowd where
> ever it goes. Everyone is impressed that it went so fast and can't believe
> it is powered by tool batteries. It is one of the most successful brand
> events Milwaukee has done. So far the car has not run since the last
> event...butttttttt...you never know...there still might be a few more
races
> in the beast...right Shawn!!
> > Right now I can't seem to get the car out of Marketing's hands cause I
> know I would really like to see it go 100mph. All the batteries and
> chargers are still in my office so the fuel is ready!!!
> >
> > Ok....sorry so long winded. I'll stop talking now.
> > Jon "Jagarbomber" Zick
> >
> >
> >
> > Ryan Stotts wrote:
> > I liked the show and was glad to see it and that the car was
> > completed. I've seen every Monster Garage episode ever made, and I
> > was completely unaware of all the goading that apparently went on with
> > the film crew, etc. Maybe since this was the last episode(so I've
> > heard..), they went all out and didn't hold back(nothing to lose?)?
> >
> > Even though "hindsight is always 20/20", just for future reference in
> > case something similar ever arises:
> >
> > What was the situation where they wouldn't let you take the car to the
> > track in the days or weeks before the race to dial it in?
> >
> > It would have been nice if the power would have been cranked up so
> > when Jesse was parading around the parking lot on the first drive, he
> > could have been doing burnouts and donuts and really been able to show
> > what electrics can do..
> >
> > Also it would have been nice if some real tires, or at least some
> > decent back tires could have been used so that car would have ran at
> > least consistent 13's and beat that Mopar every time... Amazing it
> > did run that 14.5 after all those previous runs it had been through
> > though! Those batteries had a lot more in them then I thought they
> > would have. (now if we could buy those batteries at a fair price...)
> > Considering the weight of that car, and all the wheel spin(time
> > wasted) and STILL running a 14.5(remember all the previous runs on
> > that charge), that car had a LOT more potential. It would be nice if
> > Milwaukee would dial it in and get some really nice times from it.
> >
> > The good news is, there are some really serious street beasts in the
> > works, and a certain electric rail car is about to set some more
> > records...
> >
> > A new generation of high performance electrics.. not to mention the
> > potential new age of batteries on the verge of being a reality. The
> > future of EV's is bright. Remember this Jesse, the business you own
> > and run revolves around the availability of gasoline. How many
> > Choppers will you sell if there is no gasoline? When you get bored,
> > consider building an electric Chopper with the uncertain and
> > unguaranteed future in mind..
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save
big.
>
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--- Begin Message ---
We were told the 2.27 lbs pack.. only 1 lbs of it was the actual Cells.
Keep in mind you don't want to run these kind of cells without the
protection circuits.
The case is to make them Rough and Ready for the construction trades.
I think Milwaukee Tool could expand this to a few in Parallel and go places
no others can.
Dewalt is doing a 36 volt series. The cordless battery wars are heatingup.
We all will benifit.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Norton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: Milwaukee Tool Battery
>
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 17:48, Tom Shay wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone seen detailed information about these batteries
> > (dimensions, weight, ampere and amp-hour capacity, etc)?
> >
>
> According to the website www.v28power.com it is 7 4v 3 ah cells.
>
> Weight is listed at 2.27 pounds from vendors,
>
> So 5 in series gives 140v 3 ah for about 11 pounds.
>
> 30 sets of that in parallel to get to 90ah - 330 pounds. Not too bad.
>
> But at a best price of 117.43, that's $38,610. Ouchie.
>
> No doubt the technologies of the Lithium cells can
> Be done cheaper without the tool packaging and smart tech, but it would
> take at least 90% reduction to be competitive.
>
> Given this is the first year, probably 5-10 years to get there
>
>
> John F. Norton
> via T-Mobile Sidekick
>
--- End Message ---
