EV Digest 5361
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Monster Garage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Group 24 battery options
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Effect of heating batteries
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Milwaukee Tool Battery
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Milwaukee Tool Battery
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) More Plug-in Prius question
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Monster Garage
by John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Group 24 battery options
by Tom Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Monster Garage
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Monster Garage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Monster Garage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Monster Garage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Effect of heating batteries
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Federal Test procedures
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 300zx for sale
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Monster Garage
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Infrastructure overload, was: Monster Garage
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Genny
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: More Plug-in Prius question
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Man if I would have known this was available and this Cheap.. I would have
insisted on it..
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
> > Yo Zick!!!
> > we need a solid torque converter...We can launch harder without the 3800
> > Stall that is in there.
>
> > All of them in your office... that's gotta be one Big office....
>
> > You tell me I can drive and re-power the MG Car.. I will be there it's
that
> > simple.
>
>
> Add this torque converter to your battery collection in your office so
> it will be ready for when the car sees the track next:
>
>
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10002&storeId=10001&categoryId=18147&parentCategoryId=10723&langId=-1
>
> PN# 741050
>
> http://tciauto.com/circle_track/circle_track_converters.htm
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom, you're not likely to get any better life out of flooded marine group 24
batteries. They're designed to run trolling motors and lights, maybe bilge
pumps, and they just don't like the currents that EVs require. The flooded
group 27s that Solectria put in the early Forces seldom lasted more than a
year.
I can't say for sure that a careless break-in damaged your present set, but I
think you did fairly well with that first set of Dominators. Four years is
pretty
darn good service from a set of small marine batteries.
The way to weed out the good from the bad is capacity testing each one
individually. It might be worth the trouble.
Lee Hart made a nice simple battery cycler using an old Rudman regulator
and a load, IIRC. I have the email in which he described it somewhere and I'll
look for it when I get a chance; or maybe he can repost it, if he doesn't mind.
David Roden
EV List Assistant Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your quick experiment was several days long. Thanks for the great test
data Lee.
The overall lesson is old warm battery's have better capacity. I
wonder how the same test would effect a new battery? Maybe a few
percent increase in capacity?
ACP's hardware only allows a max of 104 degrees F. This test went
quite a bit over that. But it sure shows the effect of temperature, at
least on a Hawker.
This motivates me to get my dying pack heated up just so I can get
some range out of it and help to prevent if from dipping into 80% DOD
so often.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> There were some recent discussions on ACP heating their AGM batteries,
> and the NREL study that showed greater cycle life with hot Optimas. I
> decided to run a quick experiment.
>
> Battery: a 1996 Hawker G12V38Ah10C, removed about 2 years ago from a
> U.S. Electricar S10. New, it delivered about 30 amphours at 25 amps, 25
> deg.C. At the start of this test, it delivered about 7.5 amphours at 25
> amps. In other words, it's BAD! (That's why the pack was replaced).
>
> Charger: a constant-voltage transformer based charger, that current
> limits at 25 amps, and voltage limits at 15 volts.
>
> Load: a 0.45 ohm power resistor that draws 25 amps at 12 volts.
>
> Cycler: Charges battery until 14.97 volts at 0.3 amps. Discharges
> battery until 10.5 volts. Repeats automatically.
>
> Metering: an E-meter with RS-232 port. Data logged on a PC, using a
> program I wrote.
>
> Heater: a 50-watt battery heating mat. Battery was sitting on a cement
> floor, with the heating mat wrapped around all four sides, and the top
> left open to the air. The ambient temperature was 68 deg.F.
>
> I ran several cycles to establish what the battery did at the start.
> Then I turned on the heater, and ran some cycles "hot". Then I turned
> the heater back off and ran some cycles to show the ending results.
>
> Here is a summary of the results. For each charge/discharge cycle, I
> recorded the +amphours at the end of the charge cycle, the -amphours at
> the end of the discharge cycle, and the battery temperature.
>
> temp. charge discharge
> cycle deg.F amphrs amphrs comments
> ----- ----- ------ ------ ----------------------------------------
> 1 70.9 +0.94 -7.35 baseline performance at room temperature
> 2 71.1 +0.76 -7.28
> 3 71.9 +0.76 -7.29 consistently low capacity
>
> 4 heater on; no data take during warmup
> 5 107.2 +1.29 -8.65
> 6 110.5 +4.21 -11.7
> 7 112.3 +0.63 -12.3
> 8 (no data)
> 9 114.8 +1.76 -14.2
> 10 117.2 +3.36 -15.8
> 11 118.5 +3.04 -16.7 capacity seems to have peaked
> 12 114.7 1.57 -16.5
>
> 13 98.0 +0.75 -14.4 heater off
> 14 86.7 +2.22 -13.0
> 15 77.9 +1.94 -12.7
> 16 75.1 +1.92 -12.5
> 17 73.8 +1.83 -12.2
> 18 73.4 +1.71 -12.0 capacity higher, but wandering down
>
> 1. You can see why battery testing is difficult. There is considerable
> variation between cycles even when nothing is changed between them.
>
> 2. Each cycle took 6-7 hours. It takes many cycles (days!) for the
> battery to stabilize at a new temperature.
>
> 3. Note the dramatic increase in amphour capacity caused by high
> battery temperature; more than 2:1. This very old, very tired
> battery got back up to 56% of its new capacity just by being
> heated rather modestly.
>
> 4. Half the increase in capacity *remained* after returning to the
> lower temperature. But other tests indicated that the battery
> will go back down to its original 7ah capacity if it is allowed
> to sit idle for even a couple days. (I'll leave it idle to verify).
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Line by line:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: Milwaukee Tool Battery
> Tom Shay wrote:
>
> > Has anyone seen detailed information about these batteries
> > (dimensions, weight, ampere and amp-hour capacity, etc)?
Got 4 of them...
>
> At the end of one of the isles at Home Depot, there is a Milwaukee 28
> Volt display and you can actually physically handle the batteries and
> chargers there. It's a nice little battery. It's a shame about the
> price though..
Shame about the price Darn it..!!! can't any of you guys realize just how
advanced this battery pack is??? It is leading edge in the power and
capacity. It has ALL The hard Lion protection chips in it.
They did it the hard way and the right way. I have respect for that now
days. It Ain't a cheap pile of NiCads assembled in some place far away. It's
got a micro, and Lots of other nifty programmable features that I can only
Guess at. Zick was Joshing me about the WiFi port.. that he could shut down
my Batteries from Wisconsin... Nope.. I didn't find a attenna in them..
But the Charger and the pack talk back and forth while under charge... and
this keeps the charger from melting down the pack. So... So Say Shame...
Unless you want to Slap Otmar and Me for building the best EV chargers and
Controllers.
>
> Let's say we all had several hundred of these batteries in our cars.
> Is it possible to charge them in series string of 300+ volts using a
> single on-board charger?
>
No it is not... I had a PFC30 with me, just in case. It was sent packing, in
an hurry.
> Is Milwaukee interested in sponsoring a few cars for R&D and
> promotional efforts in the field of Electric Cars? They could become
> a major supplier in this market and even offer lithium to OEM's
> currently making hybrids(which are only one step away from being
> purely electric..).
>
I asked.. Zick was sort of interested in the concept. But.. He's a tool Guy
and That's what he does. Also Milwaukee Tool has years of production locked
up with the supplier.. there won't be any surpluses for a while. So.. No I
don't see Milwaukee doing a EV battery soon. So please folks don't ask
him.. Shawn and I have tried for months... And we don't have Z28 powered EV
yet. But we all have those wonderfull Combi Kits... Yea!!! Sweet!
> Send Rich Rudman some so he can power both his cars and develop a
> charger for these batteries. See if Dennis and Wayland want any.
> Anyone else have a vehicle that could seriously benefit from having
> these batteries and could provide promotional, marketing, or R&D
> efforts to Milwaukee in exchange for them?
Umm a good chunk of the total production of the Z28 LiON batteries got ate
up in the MG Car.. they don't have huge surpluses.
Yea I would kill to have a pile of these to put into Goldie...
The shot of me having Sex with the Lion pile... Thank God ... got cut from
the filming... I was clowning around.. Not real smart in a room with a half
dozzen HI Def Cameras. And Sadistic Camera men
.
>
> Does Milwaukee want to be the battery responsible for the first
> electric running 7's in the 1/4? How about 6's? Or do you want
> another battery manufacturer's name to be listed when these records
> are set(7's this summer. 6's soon after. Could be sooner with your
> help! And it won't cost you very much either!)
>
>
Oh I know Dennis is interested in them.. But he has his own "Lion Guys" that
promise him batteries that make twice the power per weight as the V28s do.
So.... he is waiting for anybody to come after him.... and then he will
pounce.
Lets back off Begging Milwaukee Tool for Batreries... Shawn and I have tried
as hard as is polite... I expect that Shawn maybe a LOT more agressive than
I am.
I what he has tried to bribe Zick with.... that would be amusing to hear.
We know that 50 dollar a shots Tequila and Yeager Boms.. won't work...
Madman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually I find a LOT very interesting inside the packs.
But only to a Battery and BMS geek.
I have a Serious respect for the tallent that designed that pack.
Some day I would like to try.
Lead is getting boring ...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: Milwaukee Tool Battery
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 3:50 PM
> Subject: Re: Milwaukee Tool Battery
>
>
> >I have 4 that work.. and
> > couple of Dead ones.. Nope.. I know what's inside....
> >
> > I can't just show all of Zick's tricks.
> >
> > Madman
>
> There probably isn't anything very mysterious in the batteries. There
> probably are seven 18650 cells, the fuel gauge and circuitry to prevent
> overdischarge and cell reversal. I hope you learn some useful info
> about these batteries and find an interesting use for them.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe this was asked already. Does the A/C work if the ICE is not running?
If not, this will be a serious limitation in Houston and other cities of the
South. Mark T.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: Plug-in Prius question, some answers
"EV" button on the Prius will just switch to EV mode....................
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Swap the pack... I sincerly hope NOT..
And at PIR they have 400 amp 480 taps...
And I have a 480 three phase charger.
I can tranfer 100 Hp from the grid to the pack... without swapping packs.
So... pack swap .... might be outdated.
I intend to make it that way.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "DM3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
> Remember NASCAR has been around since 1947 and they have been in the
> 200mph range in the last ~15 years. Indy has been in the 200mph range for
> 30 years but they started in 1911.
>
> In 1994 or 95 Billy Roe in a converted Indy car broke 100 mph at PIR
> (Phoenix International raceway). It is a one mile track and seemed to be
> just right for an E-Indy car. I will never forget the aroma of something
> really hot (motor insulation) as he blew past me. He would go 3 to 5
> laps, pit and swap 2 packs in under 15 seconds. They were pushing the
> envelope with motors and without Lions! If those races continued through
> today, with Lions, I am convinced we would be seeing E-Indy cars doing 140
> - pushing 150!! They were spending 1 million on a car back then. The
> money dried up 2 weeks after DC (washington) deregulated the electric
> power companies in 1998 - all the power companies pulled sponsorship of
> the race simultaneously, ENRON took it from there.
>
> I have thought about an E-Nascar for some time, since it is a tube (chrome
> molly) frame and wide compared to an open wheel car, it would be easy and
> fun to set one up for left turn racing especially with a Lion pack. The
> hard part would be swapping the pack, this would be a must in the early
> days. On a half mile track you could swap every 10 laps, I think a 50
> mile race would work well and be very exciting.
> We just need a Lion sponsor----Anyone want to do some circle track
> racing???
> Jimmy
>
> > > From: "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
>
> > Remember that the NASCAR cars have nothing in common with the stock car
> > other than vaguely looking like it. They use a special body on a custom
> >
> > chassis, so should weigh much less than the stock version. You should
> > be
> > able to seal up the grill to get better aerodynamics since you won't
> > generate near the heat that an ICE does. If you watch NASCAR, notice
> > that
> > they partially seal up the grill with tape and only take off what's
> > necessary to keep it from overheating. First, you will need to get the
> > car
> > you will be using, then go from there. You'll probably won't need any
> > more
> > horsepower than the 100 mph drag racers, but will need to go over 5
> > miles
> > (assuming you're on a 2.5 mile oval, I don't remember what Daytona is),
> > so te: Thu, 13
> > will need a lot more battery, and may have overheating problems the
> > quarter
> > milers don't have. It shouldn't be too difficult if you have plenty of
> > money to throw at it. If you have a choice of retired cars, get the one
> >
> > with the best aero.
> >
> > Dave
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 0:24, J Z wrote:
Hey Rich,
Yea, I exposed myself. I decided I needed a good beating and wanted
to thank Shawn and You personally for your help.
First, I'll clarify my little "not in my lifetime" comment. The
question was about commercially available Lion EVs, like what you would
see come out of Ford, GM, or Toyota. In order for this to happen it's
not the technology of batteries, chargers, etc. that is lacking. You
guys have proved that over and over again with everyone of your
vehicles you build. It's the infrastructure that has to change in
order to adopted these into everyday lives. Think back to when the
light bulb was invented (hmmm not sure if you are that old Madman?),
contrary to what people think, Edison was not the inventor and did not
even have the first patents on the light bulb. So why did he get
credit for it? Because he created the infrastructure needed to get
this great new technology into a usable form that would meet the needs
of the customers. The innovation of the light bulb in it's self did
not alone meet these needs without everything else that needed to go
with it. Hence the
company GE was born and the power distribution
<snip>
Well, not exactly, but brings up several good points.
GE was rather quickly displaced by Westinghouse in the power
distribution business. An industry in its infancy, so easy enough to
turn on a dime. But look at, say railroads. Think of the Loewy
streamliner at the 39 World's Fair - it was the pinnacle of technology
from an industry over 100 years old - a decade or two later, hardly a
coal fired locomotive was in commercial service.
But it only took a couple more decades for that business,
revolutionized, to go obsolete, for passengers, anyway.
The pace of technological change continues to accelerate. When one
technology proves itself more suitable (cost and utility) it will
displace another - and the cycles get shorter, along with their
transitions.
Battery technology will be the key to EV growth. Lead has been around
for a long time, nicad less long, lithium even less. Cycles are getting
shorter.
I have a friend big into RC - cars, planes, whatever. LiPo has
revolutionized that industry. Electrics were always the weak sisters,
real RC was gas. LiPo is causing electric to rapidly move up the food
chain, with increased power and charge time.
Current LiPo is probably pretty close in energy density and form factor
if not yet in price to make a full-time EV practical to sell
head-to-head with gas cars. Whatever is next - with shorter cycles,
probably in 2-3 years - will be even better. Few more years to bring
prices down....I bet it *will* happen in your lifetime.
John F. Norton
via T-Mobile Sidekick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the recommendation, Doug. Anybody else have any suggestions?
-Tom
Doug Hartley wrote:
8:55 P.M.
Tom,
I have good experience so far with Interstate DCS-75BT 12V AGM Group
24 batteries:
http://www.ibsa.com/www_2001/content/products/specs/dcs_75bt.pdf
--
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 00:58:19 -0400, John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Current LiPo is probably pretty close in energy density and form factor
>if not yet in price to make a full-time EV practical to sell
>head-to-head with gas cars. Whatever is next - with shorter cycles,
>probably in 2-3 years - will be even better. Few more years to bring
>prices down....I bet it *will* happen in your lifetime.
You didn't pay any attention to what he said. He has a clue. It's
infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure. It's chargers,
charging stations, electrical distribution, and generation. Only
chargers are arguably there.
The electrical infrastructure simply cannot support any significant EV
deployment. Period. Especially if that deployment includes fast
charging. In most of the country, the distribution network is already
operating overloaded by traditional utility standards.
Before the eco-convulsions of the 70s and forward that has made curing
cancer easier than siting a power plant, utilities kept something like
2-3% rotating reserves online at all times and 10% standby reserves.
Now for many utilities, especially in the northeast and Ca, the
reserves are negative - power must be wheeled in from elsewhere,
including Canada.
I saw an article in a trade mag awhile back that pointed out that if
TVA had gone ahead and built all those nuclear plants that it
cancelled back in the 80s then it would be sitting fine with about the
desired reserves in hand. Those economists and planners were right on
the money predicting the growth of demand.
If you don't believe what I'm saying then subscribe to any of a number
of trade journals. Many are free and some are electronic.
I can't help believe that there are wise people both in and out of
government who acknowledge this obviousness and the result is that
BEVs get little more than lip service. There would have to be another
utility building boom like the post-war period to allow any
significant EV penetration and even then, not fast charging on any
large scale. I just don't see it.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea a Tommy lift pump and a 450 PSI regulator should do it.
What ever Get a good regulator that keeps the tranny lines at the right
pressue.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
> Seems like a torque converter is not really the answer in this app.
> Why not just a drive spud and an either an external acuumulator with a
check
> valve or an electric pump to get the pressure up, I believe Rod used a
> clutch master cylinder and pedal to pump up his tranny. I might even have
a
> suitable aircraft pump here laying around the Junque Yard. David Chapman.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keep in mind the Rod and Damon Crockett Both did converterless Automatic
Trannies..
And I raced Damon's RX7 to a record at Bandimere.
launching is a trick since you Have to feather the motors to creap up to the
line.. Jesse woulda just hammered it,and flayed the tranny.
With the 3800 Veter..it ran just like a Gaser.. But... with pratice or a
aculmulator or a small pump... this could be a really trick setup.
I still think Wayland can get better times with a tranny. ... and anybody
with a 2500 lbs Ev can get a better ET and MPH with a 3 speed and a locked
converter.
Take a couple Deep breathes Plasma Boy.....I know what you are going to
say... But I can show you where you are not making full power on the track..
A tranny just lets you find more ways of getting max Hp to the ground.
Think about it Are you pulling full amps at 1000 ft???
Still keep in mind that the MG car is over 5000lbs... and it needs all the
gears it can get.
But for 250 Bucks.. Hey Zick ... I will buy that locked Converter if we get
to put it the MG Car.
Then we will HAVE To get slicks...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
> David Chapman wrote:
>
> > Seems like a torque converter is not really the answer in this app.
> > Why not just a
>
> The one I linked to only LOOKS like a torque converter...
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:21 PM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
I just don't see it.
>
> John
> ---
That's fine... I do...
It's going to happen without any one noticing....No big disaster... no Gas
turbine on every street corner...
It's just going to gather strength and The thing that can't be done.. will
be done
It will take 1000s of EVs to make any real difference in total load. A
couple of Street lights here and there.. Wow...Stop lighting up this arm of
the galixy...
Pretty soon something usefull happens.
So I see no limits.
When we get a serious shortage.. maybe PWRs will start sprouting... But
advocating Nuke on this EV list is asking for a fire storm.
As we both are well aware.....
Then again.. if gas gets to What's the next Scare point 5 Bucks or 10
Bucks.. our grid is going to get Wholesale Loaded with EVs from under every
Rock and Tree.
I hope to be there.
I will still be driving...
And still building my own part of the new infrastructure....
Rich Rudman
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, a warm new flooded battery puts out about 10% more energy at 120 F than
at 80F. Heating it past 120 F had no additional gain.
I ran experiments for the Port Townsend High School Team when they were
racing.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: Effect of heating batteries
> Your quick experiment was several days long. Thanks for the great test
> data Lee.
>
> The overall lesson is old warm battery's have better capacity. I
> wonder how the same test would effect a new battery? Maybe a few
> percent increase in capacity?
>
> ACP's hardware only allows a max of 104 degrees F. This test went
> quite a bit over that. But it sure shows the effect of temperature, at
> least on a Hawker.
>
> This motivates me to get my dying pack heated up just so I can get
> some range out of it and help to prevent if from dipping into 80% DOD
> so often.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > There were some recent discussions on ACP heating their AGM batteries,
> > and the NREL study that showed greater cycle life with hot Optimas. I
> > decided to run a quick experiment.
> >
> > Battery: a 1996 Hawker G12V38Ah10C, removed about 2 years ago from a
> > U.S. Electricar S10. New, it delivered about 30 amphours at 25 amps, 25
> > deg.C. At the start of this test, it delivered about 7.5 amphours at 25
> > amps. In other words, it's BAD! (That's why the pack was replaced).
> >
> > Charger: a constant-voltage transformer based charger, that current
> > limits at 25 amps, and voltage limits at 15 volts.
> >
> > Load: a 0.45 ohm power resistor that draws 25 amps at 12 volts.
> >
> > Cycler: Charges battery until 14.97 volts at 0.3 amps. Discharges
> > battery until 10.5 volts. Repeats automatically.
> >
> > Metering: an E-meter with RS-232 port. Data logged on a PC, using a
> > program I wrote.
> >
> > Heater: a 50-watt battery heating mat. Battery was sitting on a cement
> > floor, with the heating mat wrapped around all four sides, and the top
> > left open to the air. The ambient temperature was 68 deg.F.
> >
> > I ran several cycles to establish what the battery did at the start.
> > Then I turned on the heater, and ran some cycles "hot". Then I turned
> > the heater back off and ran some cycles to show the ending results.
> >
> > Here is a summary of the results. For each charge/discharge cycle, I
> > recorded the +amphours at the end of the charge cycle, the -amphours at
> > the end of the discharge cycle, and the battery temperature.
> >
> > temp. charge discharge
> > cycle deg.F amphrs amphrs comments
> > ----- ----- ------ ------ ----------------------------------------
> > 1 70.9 +0.94 -7.35 baseline performance at room temperature
> > 2 71.1 +0.76 -7.28
> > 3 71.9 +0.76 -7.29 consistently low capacity
> >
> > 4 heater on; no data take during warmup
> > 5 107.2 +1.29 -8.65
> > 6 110.5 +4.21 -11.7
> > 7 112.3 +0.63 -12.3
> > 8 (no data)
> > 9 114.8 +1.76 -14.2
> > 10 117.2 +3.36 -15.8
> > 11 118.5 +3.04 -16.7 capacity seems to have peaked
> > 12 114.7 1.57 -16.5
> >
> > 13 98.0 +0.75 -14.4 heater off
> > 14 86.7 +2.22 -13.0
> > 15 77.9 +1.94 -12.7
> > 16 75.1 +1.92 -12.5
> > 17 73.8 +1.83 -12.2
> > 18 73.4 +1.71 -12.0 capacity higher, but wandering down
> >
> > 1. You can see why battery testing is difficult. There is considerable
> > variation between cycles even when nothing is changed between them.
> >
> > 2. Each cycle took 6-7 hours. It takes many cycles (days!) for the
> > battery to stabilize at a new temperature.
> >
> > 3. Note the dramatic increase in amphour capacity caused by high
> > battery temperature; more than 2:1. This very old, very tired
> > battery got back up to 56% of its new capacity just by being
> > heated rather modestly.
> >
> > 4. Half the increase in capacity *remained* after returning to the
> > lower temperature. But other tests indicated that the battery
> > will go back down to its original 7ah capacity if it is allowed
> > to sit idle for even a couple days. (I'll leave it idle to verify).
> > --
> > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > Forget the perfect offering
> > There is a crack in everything
> > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Something about the Federal Test Procedures and driving cycles comes
up every so often on this list.
40 CFR 86 is where all the road-going emission standards reside. FTPs
and all that other stuff pertaining to mobility emissions.
I have a paper copy of this but I've been wanting an e-copy. Tonight
I found it. A new GPO beta site:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=4c036bd03b73687fa2ae97a262a0c7cd&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title40/40cfr86a_main_02.tpl
If you're brave enough to read all this stuff, it's all there - FTPs,
emission measurements, data reduction equations, equipment calibration
procedures, etc.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: 300zx for sale
At 10:21 PM 4/10/2006, bruce bogusz wrote:
steve clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I have a 300 zx ,
conversion with 25 golfcart batteries , 1k zilla , 9 " net
gain , power steering , power brakes . . The owner has moved and I have it
up for sale at www.grassrootsev.com . I'm looking for somebody to be
partners on this car while I keep it up for sale ( or buy it ) . It has
I just took a look at your sale adds there, and I'm wondering why they
aren't also listed on the EVTradin Post?
Yep I should have them all in there , always tomorrow , I still having
gotten my ev lawn mower in the album , I'm waiting till I get it done :-) .
, My red 924 is heading for a new owner , and as I'm fixing it up I think
I'll miss her . I'm putting a 11 net gain motor , and 300v 2k zilla , 20 to
25 orbitals . . At the same time I'm doing a Hyundai with a 9" impulse motor
for another person , which with a front wheel drive seems to fit well . I
have the old AC hooked to the tail shaft , .
Steve Clunn
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 23:45:09 -0700, "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> I just don't see it.
>>
>> John
>> ---
>That's fine... I do...
>It's going to happen without any one noticing....No big disaster... no Gas
>turbine on every street corner...
>It's just going to gather strength and The thing that can't be done.. will
>be done
>It will take 1000s of EVs to make any real difference in total load. A
>couple of Street lights here and there.. Wow...Stop lighting up this arm of
>the galixy...
>Pretty soon something usefull happens.
I love to dream too, but at the same time I feel obligated to do the
math and to use my experience in the utility biz. 1000 EVs would be
considered revolutionary, I suppose, to the true believers but in the
big scope of transportation, that isn't even on the radar scope.
How 'bout a friendly bet? I'll bet you one of my exquisite 24oz prime
aged porterhouse steak dinners vs an equivalent dinner for me that in
10 years:
* Dino fuel will still predominate.
* The primary developing replacement for car fuel will be
methane-based* with some coal-derived liquid fuel thrown in for good
measure.
* hydrogen as a gaseous fuel will be still-born. **
* methane-fueled fuel-cell electrics will be commercially available,
if not in significant numbers.
* That EVs in the form of light cars and trucks will still remain
below, oh, pick a small number, say, 0.01% of the US fleet.
I win if any 4 out of those 5 predictions come true.
In 10 years I'll be fully retired, sitting on the patio overlooking my
private lake, basking in the glow of my micro-hydro-generated electric
lighting - and probably tooling around town in my EV. But I bet I'll
still be able to count the number of EVs in this town on my fingers.
AFIK, there are currently exactly 2 EV cars (both CitiCars) here plus
some e-scooters and at least one e-bicycle.
* methane-based means something that can be transported through the
national natural-gas pipeline infrastructure. It may still be natural
gas from the ground but hopefully it'll be synthesized methane made
from coal and water and nuclear heat. To use the liquid fuel national
distribution network, I predict that a suitable hydrocarbon liquid
will eventually be synthesized the same way.
** no distribution infrastructure and gaseous hydrogen presents far
too many material problems to be transported via existing
infrastructure.
>Then again.. if gas gets to What's the next Scare point 5 Bucks or 10
>Bucks.. our grid is going to get Wholesale Loaded with EVs from under every
>Rock and Tree.
Where are they going to come from? Even if the big guys decided today
to go back into the EV biz, it'd take 2-3 years minimum to go into
production. Where would even 50,000 cars come from? Or chargers, for
that matter :-)
But let's suppose something like that happened, that EVs sorta osmosed
into society, one in this neighborhood, one in that. What about power
for 'em?
A good example of that is the Atlanta metro area's water problem. In
this case, it wasn't EVs osmosing into the countryside but yuppy
villas. Apartments and townhomes and subdivisions on every
developable inch of land. Suddenly there wasn't enough water. What
did government do? Why, what they do best - ban things.
Car washing, lawn watering and other outdoor water usage was banned.
They asked people to do major indoor things such as wash clothes on
alternate days. Some major water-using industries were presented with
take-it-or-leave it interruptible contracts.
The same sort of things would happen in an electrical emergency. The
plans, regulations and laws are already written. As a volunteer
emergency manager, I've seen some of 'em.
Think: FEMA
Think: Katrina
Do you really want FEMA in control? (I just can't use the word
"manage" in a sentence involving "FEMA".)
Like most government actions, they'll first do something with empty
symbology. To "send a message." Probably involving banning something
that will make everyone uncomfortable but won't make much difference.
Such as air conditioning during the day. Remember Carter's 78 deg
mandate in government buildings? I worked for the feds back then. I
can testify as to how much did not get done in 78 deg or hotter
offices. Which might have been a really good thing except that I was
trying to start up a nuclear plant at the time. I hid a small desk
behind a rack in the mainframe computer room which HAD to be air
conditioned but I was the exception.
If EVs have diffused into society enough to represent a significant
load, particularly if fast charging causes very high peak demands,
banning charging during certain days (remember even-odd gasoline
sales) and/or banning fast charging (a demand meter on every house?)
and such will happen.
Plans for this are already written and distributed to local FEMA
offices everywhere. Does that scare you? FEMA likes to keep this
stuff secret but the plans are available, perhaps on the tail end of a
FOIA request or by volunteering as an emergency management worker.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
> In most of the country, the distribution network is already
> operating overloaded by traditional utility standards.
Correct - during the day.
That is why electricity is expensive in the afternoon and
cheap at night. Almost all charging can happen at night
with NO impact on the utility grid whatsoever, except that
it is BETTER utilised.
> ...the result is that BEVs get little more than lip service.
I doubt that is the reason why electric cars do not get the
attention they deserve.
I think it has more to do with the fact that 99% of the nation
is brainwashed night after night seeing 5000 lbs "sports cars"
or manly trucks that need 600 HP to haul that weight from 0 to 60
in an outrageous time for this "farmers equipment" and the tiny
power of electric cars (with a few exceptions) make everyone
think that they are inadequate and dangerous on Freeways and
they absolutely "need" a car that can go 400 miles every day,
even when their car use averages 5000 mi/year and you can
easily calculate that even a short-ranged BEV is sufficient.
I agree that FAST charging needs infrastructure additions.
Short-term these would simply exist of batteries!
(dump packs, charged overnight)
Later a "thicker pipe" to the power plant may be useful,
but not until the nr of EVs has taken off.
I think someone calculated that charging today's EVs in a
quantity equal to the current fleet of US cars could be done
without any new power plant, as long as the bulk of that
charging happens during off-peak hours.
In addition to that, there still is SO MUCH power being WASTED
every day and night, all glowing bulbs burning electricity into
heat, all those computers that the owners were told it is
better to keep them running day and night, all the electric
heating that wastes more than 50% power compared to burning
the fuel where the heat is needed, all the old and sub-optimal
power plants that can gain literally megawatts without burning
one more BTU, simply by upgrading the processes and machines...
Today the gas price has risen back to almost the level during the
Katrina disaster. I wonder how many people are noticing it
going back over $3
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 00:58:19 -0400, John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Current LiPo is probably pretty close in energy density and form factor
>if not yet in price to make a full-time EV practical to sell
>head-to-head with gas cars. Whatever is next - with shorter cycles,
>probably in 2-3 years - will be even better. Few more years to bring
>prices down....I bet it *will* happen in your lifetime.
You didn't pay any attention to what he said. He has a clue. It's
infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure. It's chargers,
charging stations, electrical distribution, and generation. Only
chargers are arguably there.
The electrical infrastructure simply cannot support any significant EV
deployment. Period. Especially if that deployment includes fast
charging. In most of the country, the distribution network is already
operating overloaded by traditional utility standards.
Before the eco-convulsions of the 70s and forward that has made curing
cancer easier than siting a power plant, utilities kept something like
2-3% rotating reserves online at all times and 10% standby reserves.
Now for many utilities, especially in the northeast and Ca, the
reserves are negative - power must be wheeled in from elsewhere,
including Canada.
I saw an article in a trade mag awhile back that pointed out that if
TVA had gone ahead and built all those nuclear plants that it
cancelled back in the 80s then it would be sitting fine with about the
desired reserves in hand. Those economists and planners were right on
the money predicting the growth of demand.
If you don't believe what I'm saying then subscribe to any of a number
of trade journals. Many are free and some are electronic.
I can't help believe that there are wise people both in and out of
government who acknowledge this obviousness and the result is that
BEVs get little more than lip service. There would have to be another
utility building boom like the post-war period to allow any
significant EV penetration and even then, not fast charging on any
large scale. I just don't see it.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please search the archives, we have just finished an entire
episode of genny discussions.
http://madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of John Luck Home
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 7:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Genny
I wonder if anyone on the list is familiar with the 3Kva Honda Generator on
ebay - item 7609509034.
It says there are two 110v sockets but I want to know if I can series these
up to produce 220volts or whether they are simply two parallel sockets.
I would have though Honda would have made just one type of generator for
both European and the US market where they could run the output windings as
two separate 110volt outputs or one 220volt output.
A unit like this would be a great range extender for my van
(www.bedfordev.flyer.co.uk) which I could put in the back with the batteries
when I want to go further than 50miles.
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
All cars that have an EV button also have an electric A/C pump.
(classic Prius has engine-driven A/C but also has no EV button,
if the A/C is activated the engine will come on and stay on;
the electric-only mode is limited to 1 mile; 2 miles tops)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mark Thomasson
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 7:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: More Plug-in Prius question
Maybe this was asked already. Does the A/C work if the ICE is not running?
If not, this will be a serious limitation in Houston and other cities of the
South. Mark T.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: Plug-in Prius question, some answers
>> "EV" button on the Prius will just switch to EV mode....................
--- End Message ---
