EV Digest 5364
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: A DC motor question
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Monster Garage
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Energy consumpution (was Re: Monster Garage)
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Monster Garage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Monster Garage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: A DC motor question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Effect of heating batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Monster Garage
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Effect of heating batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) US Battery vs Trojan
by Joel Silverman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Monster Garage
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Infrastructure overload, was: Monster Garage
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: T-125 Equivalent Batteries
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: SF Peak Oil Resolution
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Monster Garage
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) How do I change to read in browser?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) RE: Infrastructure overload, was: Monster Garage
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
A shunt motor is the simplest solution for constant speed -- just
hook up the armature and field to power, and it works hard to
maintain a constant speed. With more sophisticated control (different
voltage on the field vs. the armature), you can change the speed.
This is called separately excited, or sepex for short. So for a
roadgoing ev, you are either going to have to shift alot to change
speeds (which is what the e-volks kits do), or do sepex control of
the motor. For lower power systems, you can control the field with
just a variable resistor. For high enough RPM, you can also get
regenerative braking (regen) -- just crank up the field voltage until
the motor stops drawing power and starts creating power instead.
--- Richard Acuti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> That said, I've noticed some companies and people using DC shunt
> wound
> motors for traction motors. I thought that shunt wound motors were
> better
> suited for running at 1 continuous speed such as when driving a
> pump instead
> of the multi-speed demands placed on a traction motor. One
> advantage is
> overspeed prevention but isn't a series wound motor better for a
> traction
> motor?
> ...
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> GE originally Edison General Electric Company, 1890, organized control of
> Edison's various different companies.
> http://www.ge.com/en/company/companyinfo/at_a_glance/history_story.htm
I din't find that statement on GE's historical facts webpage.
The facts in the original context are, that Edison's Electric Light
Company (formed in 1878) was merged into Edison General Electric Company
in 1890 while the competing Thomson-Houston Company was formed in 1884.
Only after both companies realized that they weren't able to out-compete
each other (and some patent infringement issues) they agreed to merge and
to become GE in 1892.
See:
http://home.frognet.net/~ejcov/1884-1893.html
http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/ge-timeline.asp
So - Edison didn't start GE to build or boost infrastructure as the
original poster claimed, but to consolidate with competitors and to get
all relevant patents under one roof.
mm.
>
> Here is a bunch of stuff on Edison.
> http://www.jhalpin.com/metuchen/tae/taeindex.htm
>
>
> __________
> Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
damon henry wrote:
That's fine... I do...
It's going to happen without any one noticing....No big disaster...
no Gas
turbine on every street corner...
It's just going to gather strength and The thing that can't be done..
will
be done
It will take 1000s of EVs to make any real difference in total load. A
couple of Street lights here and there.. Wow...Stop lighting up this
arm of
the galixy...
Pretty soon something usefull happens.
So I see no limits.
Boy this sounds a lot like the attitude that Petrol heads get beat up
for on this list. So electricity is an unlimited resource and we can
consume as much as we want for as long as we want ??? If we ever get
to the point of using electric cars in mass, and I will be surprised
if that ever happens, my bet is that it will lead to just as many
problems as our gas cars do now, it will just be a different set of
problems. It will only be when we learn to consume less (of whatever
resources) that problems will start to go away, but that is definitely
not the direction we are heading, especially here in America.
damon
(WARNING, pure opinion below)
Hmmm... not sure humans work that way. I think the realistic assessment
is that we will continue to consume more and more as we expand outward.
We will *not* go backwards to a simpler life, and we will *not* stop
pushing just about any environmental limit we come across.
Electricity seems the poster child of renewable resources. Electrons and
Holes. Can't get more renewable then that, since they are not actually
"consumed". So as long as we can continue to figure out better and
cleaner ways of creating and storing it (which is just about guaranteed
for quite awhile given our current understanding of the universe), it
appears that it is the horse to bet on for the foreseeable future. It
can be zero pollution, it can be relatively safe, and it can be
everywhere without radically changing how we live. I think it will
definitely happen just "because the other choices suck way worse".
The answer is that we *can* consume as much as we can make at any given
time in our development, plain and simple. You can't beat it for
transport costs and ease of mass distribution, once an appropriate
infrastructure is in place. So as we continue to scale up our society
(which will happen, like it or not), it *does* make a basic kind of
sense to use electricity for as much as we can.
I do plan to use electricity for as many things as I can for as long as
I'm alive. And my conscience will rest easy.
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 1:28 AM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 23:45:09 -0700, "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > I just don't see it.
> >>
> >> John
> >> ---
> >That's fine... I do...
> >It's going to happen without any one noticing....No big disaster... no
Gas
> >turbine on every street corner...
> >It's just going to gather strength and The thing that can't be done..
will
> >be done
> >It will take 1000s of EVs to make any real difference in total load. A
> >couple of Street lights here and there.. Wow...Stop lighting up this arm
of
> >the galixy...
> >Pretty soon something usefull happens.
>
> I love to dream too, but at the same time I feel obligated to do the
> math and to use my experience in the utility biz. 1000 EVs would be
> considered revolutionary, I suppose, to the true believers but in the
> big scope of transportation, that isn't even on the radar scope.
The last reasonable number was about 4500 EVs country wide.
So we got 1000 in the Bag already.
Yes in every town there are one or two and in towns out here on the left
Coast...There are a bout a Dozzen in every good sized Ville
10 year for a Steak... That sounds likea pretty good deal.
10 years ago I was dreaming about 1000 amp DC controllers, and a charger
that didn't take all day and open every breaker a couple of times a charge.
But On many counts we are in agreement.
>
> How 'bout a friendly bet? I'll bet you one of my exquisite 24oz prime
> aged porterhouse steak dinners vs an equivalent dinner for me that in
> 10 years:
>
> * Dino fuel will still predominate.
Yea I see this one also, But at extreme cost...with the OLD world saying
they just can't change...
But there will be pretty good alternate sources and or fume Suckers will
predominate.
> * The primary developing replacement for car fuel will be
> methane-based* with some coal-derived liquid fuel thrown in for good
> measure.
I am betting on Methanol... Methane and Water... and a LOT Of heat and
pressure.. and you have a tame liquid that can be handled about like
Gasoline.
Meets the liquid transprotable Fuel concept you advocate.
Maybe even Ethonol.. Brazil has some hard times getting it going.. but I
hear they are energy independant.. True False??
> * hydrogen as a gaseous fuel will be still-born. **
I see this one... Except for direct burn H2 Maybe.. we just can't get enough
H2 to make a real difference.
> * methane-fueled fuel-cell electrics will be commercially available,
> if not in significant numbers.
I am not sure about this one.... the reformers were supposed to save our
bacon last Decade...Nada...
> * That EVs in the form of light cars and trucks will still remain
> below, oh, pick a small number, say, 0.01% of the US fleet.
>
I would be tickled at %1...
I will be working to make what change I can. This is going to take a
while... and at any time we could just Kill eveybody in the Middle east and
take that oil.
Ancient Rome would have understood... So did Hitler and Napoleon. Then the
western world could forget this pesky problem for about another 200 years.
> I win if any 4 out of those 5 predictions come true.
That's not a bet that 4 ways to win out of 5 of a %80 chance of a Duck in
Barrel shoot.
>
> In 10 years I'll be fully retired, sitting on the patio overlooking my
> private lake, basking in the glow of my micro-hydro-generated electric
> lighting - and probably tooling around town in my EV. But I bet I'll
> still be able to count the number of EVs in this town on my fingers.
> AFIK, there are currently exactly 2 EV cars (both CitiCars) here plus
> some e-scooters and at least one e-bicycle.
Some of don't consider a Citicar Worthy of more that carring Golf Clubs and
a hand bag of some sort.
They are some of the worst EVs. For the world to think of Evs this way ,is a
insult to those of us that can keep up with traffic.
Yer one of those??!!! I thought better of you.
>
> * methane-based means something that can be transported through the
> national natural-gas pipeline infrastructure. It may still be natural
> gas from the ground but hopefully it'll be synthesized methane made
> from coal and water and nuclear heat. To use the liquid fuel national
> distribution network, I predict that a suitable hydrocarbon liquid
> will eventually be synthesized the same way.
>
This is the point we are totally in agreement on. It's the only way to
continue on without scrapping the whole Fleet. BUT.. can it be done in time?
This year I see the potential of massive Crissis.. First our Gomnt seams to
have blinders on... So what Should happen won't...aka Katrina...And The
middle east is as voltile as evere with folks Stating they have Nukes and in
the same breath.. they intend to remove a Certain God Ordained country from
the Face of the Earth. So.. should a short series of major mistakes happen
I can See No oil leaving the Straights of Hormuz... This would lock the
Western world up in a hurry, and all these nice lets try to change...maybe I
might by an Hybrid... and park the Navigator... limp wristed attempts to try
to make a change becomes a Total survival mode of getting around. This is
where we make even bigger mistakes... or finally get it right... and
actually adapt or get used to walking.
> ** no distribution infrastructure and gaseous hydrogen presents far
> too many material problems to be transported via existing
> infrastructure.
>
I concur.
> >Then again.. if gas gets to What's the next Scare point 5 Bucks or 10
> >Bucks.. our grid is going to get Wholesale Loaded with EVs from under
every
> >Rock and Tree.
>
> Where are they going to come from? Even if the big guys decided today
> to go back into the EV biz, it'd take 2-3 years minimum to go into
> production. Where would even 50,000 cars come from? Or chargers, for
> that matter :-)
>
You let me worry about that.... The chargers I can make happen. The Big guys
are going to either make what we need or the Japs and Koreans will. My
guess is GM evaporates, Ford has a better idea, and the rest, simply make
what they can.
The briliance was the GM EV and those old TVA and Whoops planers that coulda
had all these power shortages taken care of 2 decades ago.
Hope for lots of wind, and rain...
I am not here for water rights... got the idea though.
>
> Think: FEMA
> Think: Katrina
>
> Do you really want FEMA in control? (I just can't use the word
> "manage" in a sentence involving "FEMA".)
Hee hee Snicker... Yea right with you there.
>
> Like most government actions, they'll first do something with empty
> symbology. To "send a message." Probably involving banning something
> that will make everyone uncomfortable but won't make much difference.
> Such as air conditioning during the day. Remember Carter's 78 deg
> mandate in government buildings? I worked for the feds back then. I
> can testify as to how much did not get done in 78 deg or hotter
> offices. Which might have been a really good thing except that I was
> trying to start up a nuclear plant at the time. I hid a small desk
> behind a rack in the mainframe computer room which HAD to be air
> conditioned but I was the exception.
>
Which Nuke???
> If EVs have diffused into society enough to represent a significant
> load, particularly if fast charging causes very high peak demands,
> banning charging during certain days (remember even-odd gasoline
> sales) and/or banning fast charging (a demand meter on every house?)
> and such will happen.
Part of any high demand service is managing load and times to maximise
profit and service... Lighting off a couple Megs of load at the peak of the
day... would be rather foolish.
But if our clients demand... requires it... Well that has to be planned for.
If this is required because.. there ain't no motion Lotion... profit will be
made one way or the other...
>
> Plans for this are already written and distributed to local FEMA
> offices everywhere. Does that scare you? FEMA likes to keep this
> stuff secret but the plans are available, perhaps on the tail end of a
> FOIA request or by volunteering as an emergency management worker.
No that does not scare me at all. Before FEMA we still had folks that knew
what to do. Some still do.
And it's aLOT easier to pump Kw around than Gallons of liquid. That's how
we are going to solve the bigger issue.
Madman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Umm lets call it a Surge pack...please.. Dumping conotates NO brains and
LOTS of foolish Amps.
This breaks Even PbLa AGMs from time to time..
A Surge pack will allow you to store off peak Watts or keep your Charging
Grid draw low enough to keep the Deamnd meter from lighting up.
Still this is a LOT of hardware.
What happens when we have 50 to 100Kwhr packs, and drive 300 miles and haul
kids every where or have a Real Work truck that has 100Kwhr and uses that on
every day??
The Real hard part of Demand is not now with Punny 10 and 20 Kwhr packs..
and errend level charge cycels, But when we have USEable EVs that can work
as hard or harder the the Gas or Diesel rigs they are going to replace??
Then 12 to 50Kw charger will be neede to get the Job done.
Having a pack or two in the garage playing Surge pack ...is a good idea, But
these pack are going to start at A Buck a watt hour...Lord willing this
number will fall rapidly with time and volume. But...
Surge packs are not a very cost effective solution When they cost this much.
Clearly.. we are going to have to find a way to get most of our watts off
peak or suffer the cost consequences..
Madman
> Hope this clarifies,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Acuti wrote:
> With gas approaching $3.00/gal in my town, I look at my 12 y.o. twins
> and wonder how the heck they'll ever afford fuel for the cars they
> will want to buy when they turn 16.
They'll take the 21st century solution; it's someone else's job to
provide it :-)
> They absolutely love my EV and are not opposed to their first cars
> being electric.
Seriously, that's what I see with the kids in my BEST classes, too. They
are well aware that things have to change. Moreover, they are not afraid
of change -- rather, they *like* the idea!
> I've noticed some companies and people using DC shunt wound motors
> for traction motors... isn't a series wound motor better for a
> traction motor?
Let's start by looking at what the propulsion system of a vehicle is
expected to do. First, it needs to be capable of supplying X amount of
horsepower. The value of X depends on how heavy the vehicle is, how
fast you want to accellerate or drive, etc. But for any given vehicle,
there is some value of X that you "want" or "need".
Next, you would like to be able to get this amount of horsepower more or
less continuously, at any speed. Since horsepower is torque times rpm,
this means your "engine" should be able to provide twice the torque at
half the speed, half the torque at double the speed, etc.
Now let's look at the HP versus speed curve for a normal ICE. It looks
like a haystack; zero HP at idle, rising to a peak around a few thousand
rpm, and falling back toward zero at some high speed (though it never
gets to zero because the ICE would explode first).
HP ___
| / \
| / \
|___/ \___
1000 3000 6000 rpm
If you used a fixed gear ratio, (one speed transmission), you'd find you
could only get peak HP at one vehicle. Below this speed, the car could
barely accellerate, and couldn't climb hills. Above this speed, it would
suddenly "run out of power" with the engine racing like mad but the
speed not rising.
HP ___
| / \
| / \
|___/ \___
0 20 40 60 mph
So, ICEs always use a transmission. Shifting gears moves the peak HP
point to higher or lower speeds. Now you can get full HP at 20 mph (in
first gear), 40 mph (2nd gear), or 60 mph (3rd gear).
1st 2nd 3rd gear
HP __ __ __
| / \/ \/ \
| / /\ /\ \
|_/___/__\/__\___\__
0 20 40 60 mph
Electric motors are completely different. Each type of motor has its own
torque-speed curve shape. This shape is then drastically modified by the
controller that is used with it.
The classic brushed series DC motor has a curve like this:
HP\__ HP _
| --___ | / --___
| ----_____ | / ----_____
|_________________ |/________________
0 20 40 60 mph 0 20 40 60 mph
series motor series motor
without controller WITH controller
Note that peak HP occurs at very low rpm. In fact, the torque (and
current) heads for infinity at zero rpm. If you switch a series motor
straight across a battery, it will destroy itself or anything that tries
to stop it!
So, you always see some kind of controller with a series motor. As a
minimum, a bunch of switches and/or resistors to limit the voltage
and/or current so the motor won't destroy something.
The most common choice is an electronic PWM controller. It imposes a
current limit, which limits motor torque, which makes the low-end HP
curve become a ramp. The resulting HP-speed curve is a very broad
"haystack". For a modest-performance EV, this is good enough to use
without a transmission (as you see in golf carts, fork lifts, etc.)
For an on-the-road EV, the low HP at high speeds is a problem. So, most
vehicles with series motors use a transmission, just like an ICE, to get
the HP up at high speeds.
A brushed PM DC motor, or brushed shunt motor with fixed field current,
causes the curve of the series motor to become more vertical.
high med low field current
HP \ HP\ \ \
| \ | \ \ \
| \ | \ \ \
|________\________ |____\___\___\____
0 20 40 60 mph 0 20 40 60 mph
PM or shunt motor PM or shunt motor
without controller WITH controller
With no limit on armature current, these curves all head for "infinity"
at low speeds. So like the series motor, the PM or shunt motor will
destroy something if you try to stall it without a controller. However,
the fixed field strength limits the peak torque; so it is more likely to
destroy the motor than to break something in the drive train.
So, a practical PM or shunt motor controller will also limit armature
current. This has the same effect as for the series motor; it forces the
low-speed end to become a ramp from 0 to the peak. The result is an HP
curve that looks an awful lot like a conventional ICE.
With a controller, the PM and shunt motor can therefore be used just as
effectively as a series motor. The limitations are: a. above some speed
corresponding to minimum field current, the HP falls to *zero* (i.e.
there is an ultimate maximum speed), and b) the peak torque isn't as
high, because it is limited by the maximum field current. PM motor
exacerbate these two limitations, because the field strength is fixed
and unchangeable.
Among brushed motors, the best choice is the compound motor which has
both series and shunt fields. By proper choice of them, you can get
almost any desired HP curve. For instance, the shunt field can be wired
to strengthen the field at low speeds (reducing the damaging peak HP),
and weaken the field at high speed to raise HP. This type of motor was
used in the most successful EVs of the past.
AC motors can't be run on batteries without a controller. When you add a
complex inverter, they can have any desired HP curve, so there are no
generalities we can apply.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Interesting data - I can see the effect in the "Discharge AmpHours";
> only the "Charge AmpHours" do not make sense to me, can you explain
> what these wildly varying numbers mean?
Charging ended when the battery reached a specific voltage; about
14.97v. The voltage is rising v-e-r-y slowly at this point, taking 2
hours to rise from 14.8v to 15v. So even a tiny momentary "glitch" can
trigger the Rudman regulator I used to end charging. Thus the charging
time varied 1-2 hours from the "optimum" point.
But, most of the large variation in amphour capacity occurred before
this point, since the charging current at 14.8-15v is very low
(0.3-0.2a, so 2 hours is only about 0.5ah). So, most of this effect is
no doubt due to the changing battery temperature during the test. If you
discharge the battery, then raise the battery temperature, then charge
it, it will take many more amphours to reach "full" because it has to
provide the additional energy it is going to get out on the next cycle.
Also, battery internal resistance goes up near "dead" and "full". This
causes internal heating, so battery temperature is not stable throughout
the test. The temperature varied 20 deg.F at the postive battery
terminal throughout a test cycle. Some of this is heating in the
terminal itself from the 25 amp currents; but some no doubt reflects
internal temperature variations as well.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 05:58:24 -0700, Jeff Shanab
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Infrastructure question john:
> I understand the lack of reserves and peak capability. but is it that
>way around the clock?
> There is excess capacity at night, right?
>
>We Just create a priceing structure to go with the chargeing
>infrastructure that makes people want to charge at night.
Restrictive pricing and regulation isn't the way to do things. Maybe
as a short term emergency measure, perhaps.
California is pathological in more than one way so it is difficult to
extrapolate solutions from there. We pay as our regular rate about
what you'd pay for the special EV rate. We're not likely to give up
that rate structure.
Yes, hard core EVers will charge at night if that is necessary but
what about the rest of the people who only want transportation.
Consider.. Mom and pop come home from work in their EVs and plug in.
Charging starts immediately. Then they go in, turn the AC down, turn
the TVs and lights on and start cooking dinner. Viola! Instant
evening demand.
OK, so we force or incent 'em to charge at night, install a timer or
whatever. Now they get home but don't charge. The "gas gauge" shows
that they have maybe 15-20 miles left. They rest awhile, then decide
to go out to eat. Whoops! Not enough charge to drive 10-15 miles to
the restaurant (which is what most people ended up doing when I lived
in Atlanta) so they get out the gasser.
Do that a few times and that $30 grand in two EVs (assuming someone
manages to make a $15k EV) starts looking like a very bad investment.
$30 grand will buy a lot of $5/gallon gas. So the EVs go and yet
another ordinary citizen retains a bad taste in his mouth about EVs.
A PHEV would fit into this lifestyle well but there still isn't one
available (I don't count one-off experimental cars.) Perhaps a PHEV
configured as a series hybrid with a methane fuel cell or small IC
engine burning methane or some other synthesized fuel will be what
happens. I could see that happening, as it fits well with existing
infrastructure.
I see a parallel with the Internet, something that happened so fast
that many of us can remember the beginnings. Pre-Arpanet, the world
was wide open. Many network protocols were tried, several with modest
success. But TCP/IP is what took home the gold. It's simple, easy to
understand, easy to implement and it works well enough. Arguably
other protocols are better but IP won out.
Now that IP is the embedded infrastructure, there's not a chance that
any other protocol, even one that is better in all respects, will
replace it, at least not in my lifetime.
So too goes energy. In the beginning there were all sorts of options.
Electricity, coal, gas, petroleum, whale oil, etc. As many options
for transportation motive power.
Mostly 4 wheel vehicles burning mostly gasoline won out. The
infrastructure (much more expensive than the net, I might add) is
there with its huge investment. Whatever succeeds dino fuel will have
to work within the framework of the national pipelines and national
electric grid as it exists and not how we'd like it to exist.
Yes, both will grow but not nearly rapidly enough to keep up with even
a minor move to battery EVs. Sorry, it just doesn't happen that way.
Knowing that is why I'm making my friendly bet with Rich.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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--- Begin Message ---
steve clunn wrote:
> This looks a lot like what I'm seeing with my lawn mower, on the one
> stinker in the pack. I blast these old excides orbitals all day with
> 100 amp charging and the ahs through the day look very close to what
> you have written down as the day goes by.
Note that I chose this tired old battery to MAXIMIZE this effect. On a
nice new AGM, the internal resistance is so low that the effects of
heating are much smaller.
Also, I didn't care if I ruined it. I could do these tests again if
someone wants to donate a battery! :-)
>> 3. Note the dramatic increase in amphour capacity caused by high
>> battery temperature; more than 2:1.
> I find this interesting. If they sold a lead battery for 1/2 the price
> but it weighs 2 times as much, would anybody us them for EVs? Not too
> many takers. But go the other way; 2 times the ah 1/2 weight and 1/2
> the size...
I think you are suggesting what ACP is doing. Deliberately run the
batteries hot, to get more amphours out of them. But this also shortens
their calendar life expectancy.
If your driving pattern is heavy daily usage, then the batteries will
wear out from cycle life rather than temperature; you might as well run
them hot.
But if your driving pattern is shallow daily discharges, and you use it
only a few days a week, then it's better to keep them cool. Save heating
them for *after* they are old and dying, to eke out a little more life.
Also note that charging efficiency is lower for hot batteries. If
efficiency is your goal, hot is bad. It take more excess amphours to
recharge them, and of course energy is used by the heater.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know there has been discussion about this before but
wanted to check with the group again.
I have a ElectroAutomotive VW Cabriolet conversion
that is currently running US Battery 125s. It is time
to get a new pack and I have a choice of either the
USBs or the Trojans from my local supplier.
Which would you go with? The Torjans are about $6
more for each battery.
Interested in thoughts on this.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 07:53:58 -0600, "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>I'll take you up on your 10-year bet. I think I could force myself to buy
>you a steak, if you could bring yourself to buy me some tofu. :) So how
>about it: if methane fuel cells wins, I buy you a steak; if metal-air wins,
>you buy me some bean curd; if neither wins, we both buy Rich some more
>batteries to copulate with.
Let's go for it. 10 years will be easy to remember. Yesterday was
the 15th anneversary of my house fire. At the 25 year mark I'll still
be looking at and grieving over many books with the spines burned off,
not to mention the ones that went to the landfill.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Do you have a gas station in your garage?
That is why people fill up during the day -
the stations are open during the day and you need to
go there to get gas.
I would wish the corner station is open at night, when
I return after midnight (with my Prius) but reality is
that it is not.
Imagine that gas would be $0.95 at night, $1.95 in the morning
and $3.95 in the afternoon.
When would you go to get gas?
This *is* true for electricity if you have a TOU meter.
Since you can "gas up" an EV in the convenience of your home,
the owners *will* fill up during the night and drive during the
day, without seeing this as burden.
I have a little timer that comes on at midnight and automatically
charges during the cheap electricity. I think a lot of people
want to do that and since PG&E stimulates it by installing a
new meter for free (!) there is no reason not to do this.
BTW - I did not say I want a slower vehicle, my statement was
that for many decades only sports cars had more than 100 hp
because the family sedan was running fast enough with power
somewhere around 60 hp or so.
I do not see why in the last few years the increasingly faster
technological advances have pushed the power envelope to allow
a ridiculously heavy vehicle to qualify for "Sport" in their name.
Compare that to my EV, when I am up to freeway speeds the
controller can not send more than about 40 hp to the motor,
less with higher speed.
I can keep up with traffic, even in my 5000 lbs truck.
I have to look out for others that use the excessive power in
their vehicles to do things that would legally put me at fault,
even though it was a deliberate endangering act on their part.
I talk about me signalling to change lanes at freeway speed
and by the time I am moving into the next free lane, someone
in a monster truck saw my blinker and came accellerating from
100 ft behind me, blazing past me at 80+ MPH in the empty lane
while I am veering back into my old lane to avoid a sideways
collision.
If this jerk did not have 500+ hp then he could not pull off
these dangerous tricks and the road would be safer and less
wasteful. It is a good thing when there is not too much
relative power difference between vehicles using the same
space. (relative to weight & drag)
OK, off my soapbox now.
Regarding elaborate battery maintenance:
How often do you change your oil?
Most people never change it, it is done for them.
Many EVs today are tinkerer toys; production vehicles will do
what Toyota did with the Prius: guarantee the battery for 100,000
miles after putting the engineering in to make it maintenance free.
Ask the people that leased the production EVs.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of John Norton
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 3:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Infrastructure overload, was: Monster Garage
On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 5:43, Cor van de Water wrote:
> John,
>
>> In most of the country, the distribution network is already
>> operating overloaded by traditional utility standards.
>
> Correct - during the day.
> That is why electricity is expensive in the afternoon and
> cheap at night. Almost all charging can happen at night
> with NO impact on the utility grid whatsoever, except that
> it is BETTER utilised.
>
There is a point here - do people fill their cars at night, or during
the day? Electrics will have to take on energy when it is needed. Most
people are going to use them during the day, they will need to recharge
during the day. The capacity to do so will have to exist.
>> ...the result is that BEVs get little more than lip service.
>
> I doubt that is the reason why electric cars do not get the
> attention they deserve.
But they do get the attention that they deserve. Build a better
mousetrap and all that.
> I think it has more to do with the fact that 99% of the nation
> is brainwashed night after night seeing 5000 lbs "sports cars"
> or manly trucks that need 600 HP to haul that weight from 0 to 60
> in an outrageous time for this "farmers equipment" and the tiny
> power of electric cars (with a few exceptions) make everyone
> think that they are inadequate and dangerous on Freeways and
> they absolutely "need" a car that can go 400 miles every day,
> even when their car use averages 5000 mi/year and you can
> easily calculate that even a short-ranged BEV is sufficient.
>
Thinking everyone else is too dumb to "get it" rarely works in advancing
a cause. There is no brainwashing, there is no authoritarian bus driver
forcing the lemmings over the cliff.
I mean, look at this mailing list, with its dedicated EVangelists - how
many times has it been asked on the list, "how can I make my car slower"
or "how can I decrease my range?" Brainwashed, then?
There is no latent desire in people to have slower, heavier, and less
useful cars - clever internet cartoons will not suddenly cause people to
want to adopt elaborate battery maintenance schemes.
When a better option comes along, people will choose it.
John F. Norton
via T-Mobile Sidekick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mick,
Been running Trojans now for 4 years. They are T-145's 260 AH. My pack has
been completely dry all these years. Only spray a battery cleaner only once,
but I do not do that any longer, because it makes a big mess.
The conductance tracking across the tops are about nill.
Why is my batteries are so dry and clean. A long time ago, a old battery
guy told me that I do not have to water the batteries every time I see it is
down a little. It may be down when discharge or down when charge.
A discharge battery electrolyte level will be down, and when charge it will
rise. Well that what happen to me, a lot of wet tops, because I was filling
when discharge. Charging cause the electrolyte to rise too high and cause
increase pressure on my old Exides.
The maximum ampere to charge T-125's is 47 amps which is 20 percent of the
AH rating for good life. I normally charge at 40 amps and only charge to
7.2 volts per 6 volts at a battery temperature of about 80 F. and 7.5 volts
at a temperature of 65 F.
The maximum discharge is to 70% on my Trojans, while I was going to 50 % DOD
with the Exides for the same amount of drive time and distance.
I have my PFC-50 set, so it will charge to the maximum voltage set point
which may be about 85 to 90% DOD with very little time out for finishing
charge.
I only do finishing charge while I balance charge to about 7.8 volts once a
month. I first take the batteries to 85% and then water them at that time,
then continue to do a finish charge to get a good mix of the water that may
normally set on top of the heaver acid.
Another old guy from the HydroCap Company, (well he sounded old) said
putting Hydro Caps on my batteries would not be too effected because I need
about 3 inches of air space above the caps. He told me to use a totally
enclosed plastic exhaust fan in the 150 CFM range to pull in fresh air into
the battery box. The oxygen in the air will mix with the hydrogen in the
battery which will reduce the water loss somewhat.
Another trick he told me, is to set the batteries on a 1 inch thick bed of
baking soda which reduces the condensation. I did this, and its works.
As the battery ages, I lower the maximum charge set point by about 1 volt
per year.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 11:29 AM
Subject: RFQ: T-125 Equivalent Batteries
> Hello,
>
> I need to replace my pack of 17 Trojan T-125s. I get a fantastic price
> locally for Trojans, but I haven't been happy with my last batch. They
> leaked acid in copious amounts from the original battery caps. I
> replaced the caps with the Trojan twist lock caps and then they only
> leaked a lot. The prior set of Trojans had a different style of cap an
> only oozed a bit of acid.
>
> So, any battery vendors on the list that want to quote better behaved
> batteries for pick up in Phoenix?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a controversial subject and IMO is actually somewhat off-topic for this
list. Please use restraint, folks. Thanks.
David Roden
EV List Assistant Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:32:45 -0700, "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>> But I bet I'll
>> still be able to count the number of EVs in this town on my fingers.
>> AFIK, there are currently exactly 2 EV cars (both CitiCars) here plus
>> some e-scooters and at least one e-bicycle.
>Some of don't consider a Citicar Worthy of more that carring Golf Clubs and
>a hand bag of some sort.
>They are some of the worst EVs. For the world to think of Evs this way ,is a
>insult to those of us that can keep up with traffic.
>Yer one of those??!!! I thought better of you.
Now you don't really think I'd be driving a stock Citi, do you? :-) I
did do a couple of laps around be block before I jacked it up and slid
some volts under it. 72 volts, to be exact. Yeah, it'll keep up with
traffic on surface streets. And I'm 'bout to install a larger motor.
Probably a B&B motor unless Jim wants the job :-)
About the only thing that is stock on my Citi is the VIN number :-)
I'm about to do some frame cuts and welds so I can fit 14" tires and
wheels. That should complete my speed upgrade and get me up to at
least 60mph which is more than enough for where I'm going to drive it.
The major features of the citi include: Cheap (sorry, I'm just not
going to spend the kind of money some folks here are spending on any
sort of car. Retiring early is so much more important). Go-kart like
handling. Easy parking. Cheap. Chick magnet :-) Cheap. Did I
mention inexpensive?
The only disadvantage is that I can hardly go anywhere in a hurry
because so many people want to chat me up. I suspect that my cool,
emotionless and rational approach to EVs - no eco-nazi bleating, just
rational logic for why an EV fits my around-town transportation needs
the best - gets more people interested than if I tried to evangelize
while driving a converted Metro or something. The problem, as usual,
comes when the person asks the magic question - "OK, so where can I
get one?" Rots o Ruck!
>The briliance was the GM EV and those old TVA and Whoops planers that coulda
>had all these power shortages taken care of 2 decades ago.
>Hope for lots of wind, and rain...
Yup. I keep forgetting about the Whoops debacle. Probably worse than
the TVA one. I know some of the old TVA engineers. They're retired
now and are just sittin' back with a big ole sh*t-eatin' "I told you
so" grin on their faces....
>> I worked for the feds back then. I
>> can testify as to how much did not get done in 78 deg or hotter
>> offices. Which might have been a really good thing except that I was
>> trying to start up a nuclear plant at the time. I hid a small desk
>> behind a rack in the mainframe computer room which HAD to be air
>> conditioned but I was the exception.
>>
>Which Nuke???
Sequoyah in Chattanooga with an involuntary stint at Browns Ferry in
AL after the '75 fire.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi There,
I am currently receiving these digest postings from the group. I would like
to change to see them in a browser window. I am having issues with my email
being full. Can you tell me how to change this? (Please, if someone could
reply outside the group directly to my address I would be grateful.)
Thanks so much!
Shellee
LEVT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John,
People are motivated by different things.
Some people want cars that are big, fast, and powerful.
Some people are willing to compromise on those factors for things they
think are more important.
Things like environmental impact, locally sourced "fuel", the engineer's
desire to build something useful.
Right now, ICE cars are in a very strong position. They do everything we
need them to do.
We've grown up with them and they've grown up with us. Their "user
interface" has been simplified and standardised to the point that anyone
that knows how to drive a car can easily jump into pretty much any car
and make it go.
We are comfortable with our cars.
It's a bit like McDonalds and their styrofoam hamburger wrappers.
The styrofoam clamshell is the perfect hamburger container.
It's waterproof, holds its shape, keeps the food warm, and is cheap to
manufacture.
Only problem is, it is completely disastrous for the environment.
Eventually, McDonalds saw the light and changed their hamburger
packaging to cardboard and paper.
Not as waterproof, shape holding, or insulating, but much better for the
planet.
Now, we were talking about cars...
Mark
> From: John Norton
> Sent: Thursday, 13 April 2006 8:59 PM
> Subject: Re: Infrastructure overload, was: Monster Garage
<snip...>
>
> There is no latent desire in people to have slower, heavier, and less
> useful cars - clever internet cartoons will not suddenly
> cause people to
> want to adopt elaborate battery maintenance schemes.
>
> When a better option comes along, people will choose it.
>
>
> John F. Norton
> via T-Mobile Sidekick
--- End Message ---
