EV Digest 5387
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery comparison
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery comparison
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Have been collecting range data, how about acceleration data
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Shortest pack life, was "longest range?"
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery comparison
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Fw: from the VW EV list. 36 v forklift motor Parallel controllers.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: VW Beetle
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: longest range?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: regulation current was:Some problems to solve
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: regulation current was:Some problems to solve
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) QD taperlock starting bore size needed!
by Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Some problems to solve
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: regulation current was:Some problems to solve
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Have been collecting range data, how about acceleration data
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: longest range?
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Battery comparison
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: regulation current was:Some problems to solve
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: regulation current was:Some problems to solve
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
You're as fast as it gets in the EV world. Lets hope Milwakee or some other
manufacturer gets wise. The faster the better as far as drag racing goes.
I wish the discovery channel does and EV dragster episode. Maybe Modern
Marvels. LR........
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
In a message dated 4/18/06 11:50:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<<
Seems if it was engineered properly a light pack of 18650's would be one
way
to get your Current Dragster into the 6's. Now that the little battery's
are an amp hour each the math is very easy. Also the weight reduction
couldn't hurt. For me 80 of these little dEVils would take my scooter a
long
way. All I need is 24volts and 1000 watts. LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year >>
*** It would be more fun for me for someone to take the record then go out
and retake it.There is little incentive for me to keep breaking my own
record at
my own expense. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Acuti wrote:
Optima batteries I'm familiar with. I have one in my DeLorean. I
visited the Orbital website and it seems to me that Orbitals are the
same thing only they are manufactured by Exide.
Is this correct?
Basically, Optima's (now owned by Johnson Battery Systems) patent on the
spiral wound AGM cell ran out, and Exide produced a clone. Incidential
testing by list members has shown the Exide to be a marginally better
battery. (Lighter, slighty higher capacity at the 1 hour rate, easy to
mount and higher peak currents have been reported) All three batteries
are AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat), the Hawker's still use a flat "sandwich"
of plates, while the Exide and Optima use the spiral wound "6 pack"
construction.
Hawker batteries appear to be a different animal. AGM technology but
they appear to be smaller for lighter duty. Definitely not traction
batteries...not for a 4 wheel vehicle anyway. I've read that some of
you use them for accessory batteries. Is this correct?
AFAIK Hawker got their start in UPS duty. They have a wide range of
sizes up to about 27amp/hr, nothing really in automotive sizes. They
are excellent racing batteries, but lack the capacity for a everyday
(low voltage) road vehicle. Some of the higher voltage AC systems use
them to keep total battery weight under control. (When you need 400v,
ever 45lb Optima's/Exide's add up to 1500lbs....) Hawker's are one of
the more expensive AGM batteries as well.
If you want a long range inexpensive daily driver, look at golf cart
batteries, Trojan or US Battery.
If you want a sports car daily driver the Optima or Exide Orbital is a
good choice but will be more expensive mile for mile that the golf cart
bats.
If you want to drag race the Hawker is the most accessible race battery...
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to Richard and All,
Richard Acuti wrote:
Optima batteries I'm familiar with. I have one in my DeLorean. I
visited the Orbital website and it seems to me that Orbitals are the
same thing only they are manufactured by Exide.
Is this correct?
No, not correct. Similar? Yes. The Exide Orbital in fact, got its start
as a made-by-Optima cheaper version of the Red Top starting battery. I
was at the factory and got to see Both the Optima and Exide versions
being manufactured. Back then, Optima made a rather bland looking all
grey colored battery with the identical case as their regular RT and YT
batteries (only all grey), but stuffed it with less active materials, so
the Exide licensed battery was lighter and only had 650 cca instead of
the RT's 800 cca ratings. That was then....today, Exide has their own
design battery they build themselves. Though it looks like an Optima, it
is taller, narrower, a pinch longer, and 40 lbs. vs 44 lbs. for the YT.
>Does Orbital have an advantage over Optima?
In tests performed by qualified EVers, the mighty Exide Orbital can blow
away any Optima YT with 2000 amps discharge capability vs about 1400 max
amps from a YT. The rated ahrs is different, as one might expect between
a 40 lb. battery and a 44 lb. battery, at 50 ahrs vs 55 ahrs.
Hawker batteries appear to be a different animal. AGM technology but
they appear to be smaller for lighter duty. Definitely not traction
batteries...not for a 4 wheel vehicle anyway. I've read that some of
you use them for accessory batteries. Is this correct?
Way off here. Hawker batteries 'can' be smaller, as they make a lot of
models to choose from. Lighter duty? This one had me laughing, sorry,
I'm not making fun of you. Hawkers are legendary for their 'extreme'
heavy duty nature! Little 13.5 lb. Hawkers belt out 800 amps all the way
down a drag strip! I know of no other lead acid battery (excluding TMF
type) that can routinely do this without harm. Hawker also makes deep
cycle AGM group 31 12V batteries (larger than the group 34 Optima YT and
the same size as Optima's group 31 model), and very soon will have an
Optima sized drop-in replacement. Yes, many use the smaller sized
Hawkers as 12V accessory batteries, but many have also used larger
hawkers to power their entire EV. One of my EVs runs on 29 Hawker batteries.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "John Wayland" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: Have been collecting range data, how about acceleration data
> Why not 0-60 instead of 0-45?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Hello to All,
> >
> > I was excited to see this request for acceleration specs, until I
> > realized my car has to be excluded :-(
Same for me, as my rig now weighs 6840 lbs which was lighten down from
the 7840 lbs which used a very high power cobalt battery which could
accelerated up a steep hill at 60 mph. Roland
> >
> > Steve wrote:
> >
> > >I would like to put together a spreadsheet with some real data on
> > >acceleration. I am looking for acceleration data in the range of 4
> - 40 sec for 0 - 45 MPH
> > >with cars / trucks between 1500 lb and 5500 lb.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Steve's range of 4 - 40 seconds takes my car out of the performance
> > window he's set, as it accelerates from 0 to 60 mph in less than 4
> > seconds, so I guess I've got to sit this one out.
> >
> > See Ya.....John Wayland
> >
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So in the spirit of extremes, how many miles did you get from the pack
with the worst life? Include how you screwed up, what else screwed up,
brand/capacity, cost and vehicle.
I'll start. UES Truck, 50kw AC system. The pack was assembled with 4
strings of 26 batts each, in parallel, in 2 layers. 32 on the top 72 on
the bottom. Zero regulation. Zero BMS. Zero monitoring. Only 6 amps max
charge rate to the whole pack, and 200 amp max discharge rate. These
were 16ah Hawkers at a cost of $7k to the previous owner.
Me: I should have just pulled them all out and sold them. But I figured
with 4 strings the stress would be very low on each batt. Turns out
that with this many batterys the state of charge of each battery
diverges very fast and very far without any form of BMS or thermal
management. BMS is more important than choice of battery I believe now.
Truck: Nothing to keep the battery's really equalized. The factory
designed it with dual strings. It should have had at least clampers
from the start to keep that many batts in line. This entire pack was a
setup for failure due to the different heating at different locations
in the pack causing even faster divergence in each batterys SOC. But
even the 42ah factory batterys don't last more than 5k miles.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey John-
I'd still like to understand something.
If Hawkers can "routinely" dish out 800+ amps without harm, why did you need a
new set in less than a year of drag racing?
I know I asked this before and maybe I missed the answer, but your claim does
beg the question.
I wouldn't dispute that Hawkers are the cats meow (and as you know, I have some
on my EV), but I gotta know---did high currents and heat kill those Hawkers or
did lack of batt regs do it, or what?
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Hello to Richard and All,
>
> Richard Acuti wrote:
>
> > Optima batteries I'm familiar with. I have one in my DeLorean. I
> > visited the Orbital website and it seems to me that Orbitals are the
> > same thing only they are manufactured by Exide.
> >
> > Is this correct?
>
>
> No, not correct. Similar? Yes. The Exide Orbital in fact, got its start
> as a made-by-Optima cheaper version of the Red Top starting battery. I
> was at the factory and got to see Both the Optima and Exide versions
> being manufactured. Back then, Optima made a rather bland looking all
> grey colored battery with the identical case as their regular RT and YT
> batteries (only all grey), but stuffed it with less active materials, so
> the Exide licensed battery was lighter and only had 650 cca instead of
> the RT's 800 cca ratings. That was then....today, Exide has their own
> design battery they build themselves. Though it looks like an Optima, it
> is taller, narrower, a pinch longer, and 40 lbs. vs 44 lbs. for the YT.
>
> >Does Orbital have an advantage over Optima?
>
> In tests performed by qualified EVers, the mighty Exide Orbital can blow
> away any Optima YT with 2000 amps discharge capability vs about 1400 max
> amps from a YT. The rated ahrs is different, as one might expect between
> a 40 lb. battery and a 44 lb. battery, at 50 ahrs vs 55 ahrs.
>
> >
> > Hawker batteries appear to be a different animal. AGM technology but
> > they appear to be smaller for lighter duty. Definitely not traction
> > batteries...not for a 4 wheel vehicle anyway. I've read that some of
> > you use them for accessory batteries. Is this correct?
> >
> Way off here. Hawker batteries 'can' be smaller, as they make a lot of
> models to choose from. Lighter duty? This one had me laughing, sorry,
> I'm not making fun of you. Hawkers are legendary for their 'extreme'
> heavy duty nature! Little 13.5 lb. Hawkers belt out 800 amps all the way
> down a drag strip! I know of no other lead acid battery (excluding TMF
> type) that can routinely do this without harm. Hawker also makes deep
> cycle AGM group 31 12V batteries (larger than the group 34 Optima YT and
> the same size as Optima's group 31 model), and very soon will have an
> Optima sized drop-in replacement. Yes, many use the smaller sized
> Hawkers as 12V accessory batteries, but many have also used larger
> hawkers to power their entire EV. One of my EVs runs on 29 Hawker batteries.
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is very good. I've never heard of Paralleling controllers. I wanted
to use two controllers and two motors. This is interesting. Your car must
be extremely light. Can you give some spec's. on weight, transmission, gear
oil etc..... YOu need some real batteries. (Golfcart, or Optima) The
Starting batteries will not last long. Please BCC [EMAIL PROTECTED] He
seems to have a really good ev so far.
Lawrence Rhodes.......
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 04:43:40 -0000
From: "phydoux669" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: 36 v forklift motor
i have a gt 40 style kit car that i have started to convert to
elecrtic.so far i only have 3 12 volt car start batterys,2 275 amp
controllers ran in parallel,and a 36v forklift motor.i have only
gotten to 36 mph but have decent run time from the 3 batterys(about
10miles)any help for more speed and runtime????
any help?
thanks Phydoux
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alan Smith wrote:
> A friend of mine wants to convert to an ev because he only drives
> about 10-15 round trip for work. And occasionally takes his kids
> places around town. The first question is, what car should he use
> as a donor?
That's an easy mission. He should be able to convert pretty much any car
he likes.
The main effect of vehicle size is to scale the problem up or down.
Converting a 4000 lbs vehicle will cost about twice as much as
converting a 2000 lbs vehicle, because you need twice the weight of
batteries, twice as powerful a motor, etc.
> The second question would be, what batteries to use? His, and his
> wife's, only objection to an ev is the lead acid batteries. From
> looking at lots of evs, the best seem to be Lithium Ion.
Lead-acid is the only affordable option; anything else will cost a lot
more. 99% of electric vehicles use lead-acids for this reason. What is
his and his wife's objection?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> Alan Smith wrote:
> > I have to say I'm immpressed with what people have gotten.
> >
> > Now, how do you do it?
>
> Very easy. Paid a lot of money.
Well, using money is the easy way. :-)
There are other ways, though. Dick Finley and John Wayland put 40 golf
cart batteries in a Toyota pickup, and got over 100 mile range, for
example. This was fairly cheap and straightforward -- just use a ton of
batteries.
Cedric Lynch has gone over 100 miles in his EVs -- his method is to make
them ultra-light and efficient. He has a feet-forward motorcycle, with
his own highly efficient motor design.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Brune wrote:
> Has anyone measured the actual current that can be bypassed by a
> Rudman regulator continuously. Manzanita Micro web site says 2A.
> I don't see how this is possible though.
Yes. Since it's a resistor (or MOSFET acting as a resistor), they really
do draw about 2 amps when "on".
However, they don't normally stay on; they cycle on/off. So what
actually matters is the amphours they bypass. I've measured that with an
E-meter. It varies a lot depending on the cooling available for that
little heatsink, but 0.4 amphour per hour is about right.
My concern with the Rudman regulator is that the heatsink is very small,
and is typically mounted in a place with highly uncertain airflow and
cooling. So, it is very hard to know exactly how many amphours it is
bypassing around the battery.
I found that the average current being bypassed was under 0.5 amps
unless you did something drastic to improve regulator cooling. That's
why I designed my zener-lamp regulators to bypass 0.5 amps. I think they
accomplish the same thing as the Rudman regulator, but with far fewer
parts. Also, they start working earlier, to get more equalizing per
charge cycle.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I studied how they worked it seemed to me that they were designed
with a duty cycle less than 100%. The power resistor mounted on the
heat sink can die easily if not thermally protected. I found this out
in my design and determined that my sinking scheme would not work well
enough.
When I copied the design I went to an even larger extreme and used
resistors that are taking double or quadruple their rated 5w or 10w
capacity. Granted, I used ceramic resistors. But they have never
failed. They don't have a heat sink because of space constraints and
me being cheap. But since my charger tapers the current down toward
end of charge anyway, they don't stay blinking at a fast rate very
long anyway. The only time I can thermally stress test them and turn
them on 100% is when I crank the charger voltage up 5 or 10 volts more
than nominal. But still all 50 have survived. I guess time will tell.
Rich's units have external load connections if you need them to bypass
more than the stock config.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Ryan,
> It is true that the charger current can be higher than 0.4A, however it
> won't take long before one battery will essentially be wanting to
take very
> close to 0 amps, and thus the charger will be close to the 0.4A
level. I've
> seen this with the CV charging that I do, charge current quickly
drops to
> near zero.
>
> Has anyone measured the actual current that can be bypassed by a Rudman
> regulator continuously. Manzanita Micro web site says 2A. I don't
see how
> this is possible though.
>
> Chris Brune
>
> From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >So if the battery is at 14.8V then the reg can bypass 0.4A
> > >continuously.
> > >
> > That doesn't necessarily mean the charger has to throttle back to .4A.
> > Shunting some of the current through the regulator instead of the
> > battery can keep that battery at bay until the others catch up.
It does
> > eventually hit a point where the battery is simply full, and it would
> > have to shunt more current to keep the battery (AGM) from exceeding a
> > safe voltage level. If the others haven't caught up yet, then that's
> > the time to signal the charger for it to cut back.
> >
> > -Ryan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings All,
I am down to the last pieces I need to install my motor. I have the adapter
plate and with a bit of ingenuity and an automated plasma cad cutter have
fabricated laminated spacers for my motor to make sure I get the exact distance
to the torque converter from the motor. That part is all well and good.
Here is the problem.
I can get some time on a friend's lathe and have a bar of TGP shaft steel and a
QD taperlock bushing for my motor. I have been looking at the data sheet that
comes with the QD bushing and the problem is I can't find the STARTING BORE
diameter. It is a Moline SH 1 1/" QD bearing. It gives diameters, etc. but I
am a bit confused since they appear to be before it is drawn into the taper
hole.
I thought maybe some of you out there have done this and might have this
dimension available so I can get it into the autocad program and finish the
drawing. I am not real familiar with cutting tapers.
Thanks in advance,
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Heck no you are not the only one.
I have all sorts of problems keeping my Orbs in line... I had one blow up on
me...I was running at 1200 amps... but it was the runt battery the one that
almost never came up with the Regs.
5 or 6 charge "cycles"... resetting the charger after it timed out... It
just did not want to come up and play. Well It was a bad battery.. all the
regginng and effort that was shown it.. still didn't get it back on line.
The warning was ..get rid of the bad ones... and Well they become the limit
in every pack. I should have known.
Sadly when you can just can't get a Orb to stay full with Regs.. it's
probably not the Reg's fault, it's a bad battery. I have old batteries or
factory blems.. so I have a long list of wounded and possibly not all there
batteries. This makes for really Good battery Regulator testing.... Sigh!!
Before I blew the Orb It HAD cleared the Reg's Red Low batt led.. so it
looked like it was all full. Clearly..something else was wrong
But... with Your Regs.. and the charger... you should be able to bring all
25 Orbs up to 14.8 the Reg point. After a long run or Racing this might take
a couple of 15 minute resets of the charger.
If you can't... you have serious battery issues. These may be limits to your
racing power also. So... If you are hunting ET and MPH tickets... prudence
says swap out the weak ones..before you vaporize them and break other
stuff. The Regs won't survive a blown cell or interconnect.
Also the Regs do support a "Equalization" command. It's dip Switch #6 on any
Manzanita Micro charger, This should lilght up the Yellow LED on ALL the
regs. and also kick the Reg pointup by about 1.5 volts. Setting a 14.8 volt
reg to a 16.5 volt reg. This is all you need to kick a stuborn AGM into
line. It works on my gear, But I never use it. Normal Regging solve all my
issues.. except Bumm batteries to start with. My pack of Orbs was 3 years
old before I ever got to them. So...homework is required to run my pack.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 12:08 PM
Subject: RE: Some problems to solve
> Dear Rich and Lee:
>
> You are killing me. ;-)
>
> Apparently, I am one of the poor, unfortunate souls with 25 Orbitals that
> just can't seem to agree on a common voltage. I have Mk2/2b regs on each
> one, which I feel have been very useful from the standpoint of
communicating
> with the charger and not allowing me to overcharge my batteries. However,
I
> have quite a few that hit the 14.8 V mark and start blinking while others
> want to hang out around 13 and small change. Could it be that I've abused
> them with 1400+ Amp discharges at the track? Absolutely. ;-)
>
> Still, I'd like them to play together more nicely. Maybe I'm just not
> allowing them to finish charge long enough, and need to increase the
> timeout. Right now, it's an hour, but maybe it needs to be more like two
> hours at 1-2 amps while held at the 14.8 V limit.
>
> Anyway, all this talk of equalization finally got me inspired to put it to
> the test last night. I thought, "maybe I should take better care of my
poor
> batteries and treat them to a nice equalization charge!" (their first
ever).
> After topping up the pack with a normal charge cycle to about 345 V, I
> followed the equalization procedure, but chickened out after about 40
> minutes. Some of the batteries got up around 15.5 V, while half of the
> pack's batteries were still wallowing around 13.2 V. This was at a charge
> current of 1 amp and pack voltage got to about 360 V. Ten minutes of me
> nervously pacing around the car, sticking my face over each battery and
> sniffing for any hint of venting gas got old very quickly.
>
> Needless to say, hearing today that I should NEVER equalize my pack of
> Orbitals kinda bummed me out, even if there is some disagreement on the
> subject. If I can avoid the equalization stage in the future, that's
great.
> But in the meantime, what's the best way to get all the batteries in line?
> I'm not a fan of charging individually since I've done it before with only
> short term satisfaction. The batteries soon get out of whack again.
>
> Am I the only one experiencing this? How are others' Orbitals/AGMs doing,
> and what charging regimen do you use?
>
> Matt Graham
> 300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
> http://www.jouleinjected.com
> Hobe Sound, FL
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 1:21 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Some problems to solve
>
> For the ground rules Sake...
>
> Lets assume the brute force method is out of the question.
>
> And you don't want to just force 2 amp into a full battery. The result
will
> cause venting.
>
> So.. What else do you have?? Voltage? and Amps...These are the only two
> tools to read and to vary.
> Unless you are also tracking past demand and charge cycles.
>
> So.. You pick a voltage that will fill the battery on time and not vent
it.
> AGM and specifically Optimas recommend 14.8 volts. Seams to work for most
> AGM batteries.
>
> That old Bucket of water concept is very valid. but you want them all
full,
> no matter if the buckets are slightly different sizes. Full and barley
> dribbling over is a Known state.
> Locking the peak voltage with any kind of regulator.. is a very good first
> step. The second is to back off the main charger If you can't dribble the
> extra power fast enough to keep the voltage below the level you want them
> at.
> Or adding power to the ones that just take a little longer to
> dribble...Good idea helps get to that nice all full state faster. Without
> having to abuse any single battery with high volts like the Bulk 2amp for
> ever stage that some Battery vendors and Charger designers favor. Heck Lee
> if these old concepts actually worked like folks say they do...we wouldn't
> be making Chargers and BMS improvements now would we?
>
>
>
> 14.8 is going to "Gas" the internal chemistry.. But not such that venting
> will occur. Well to any great degree. I have vented at 14.8 after a 150
amp
> cycle.. there are limits...
>
> But to most EVers that are coming over from Flooded PbLa.. You don't want
to
> push a AGM through the "classic" equalization cycle. We have to do it by
> other means.
>
> The other means for AGM is a voltage hold While the amps taper back to
less
> than 2 amps. You NEVER drive the AGM over 15 if you can help it. Doing so
> with a long series string just about guarantees you will vent one of the
> batteries. There are clear exceptions to this rule.. But if you do just
> what the procedure says, you will get rated cycle life if not a couple
times
> more that the posted cycle life.
> Since the advertised cycles assumes you will have some... "Events".
>
> Knowing the Actual requirements of a single Battery's State of charge...
> Well Lee that's just about impossible. You need a LOT of solid lab grade
> data, as well as the history of the last charge cycle and depth of
> discharge, Age of battery and the number and depth of all cycles. And then
> with some math and a Good WAG... you can kinda predict the Watts needed to
> solve the equation. Yup you can get close with a good data cruncher and
> "Best practice" methods. Been there done that.. by hand many times.
>
> Or you can hold all the regs at blink levels for 30 minutes.. and yer
> done...
>
> I am not sure..which one gives a better charge... But.. I really do know
> which one is more cost effective....
> And which one is easier to implement.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 9:11 AM
> Subject: Re: Some problems to solve
>
>
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> > > Forget forced equalization. That's for floodeds. AGM guys use the
Regs.
> > > And Never drive the Lead over 15 volts if we can help it.
> > > Never Equalize, The regs do that as they blink.
> >
> > Rich, I disagree.
> >
> > "Equalization" is the process of somehow getting different numbers of
> > amphours into batteries, to compensate for them being at different
> > states of charge. There are lots of ways to do it; your regulators are
> > only one.
> >
> > Ye Olde Brute Force method, used for floodeds, is to just blindly charge
> > excessively. Like filling buckets with a hose. They all fill up all
> > right; but the excess spills on the ground and makes a mess. With
> > batteries, the "mess" is gassing, fizzing, water loss, higher battery
> > temperature, and somewhat shorter life.
> >
> > You're right; you don't want to use this method for sealed batteries.
> > The top is "sealed", so attempting to overfill it causes the pressure
> > inside to increase. It can blow the safety vents, lose water (which
> > can't be replaced), make them get hot, and seriously shorten their life.
> >
> > But, I disagree that you *never* take AGMs up over 15v. Let's assume you
> > are doing your equalization via extra charging. If one battery is 1
> > amphour lower than the rest, you have to put one extra amphour into it.
> > There are lots of ways you can do this.
> >
> > You could apply a lower voltage for a longer time. My simple zener-lamp
> > regulators start shunting current at 13.5v, and gradually increase to
> > 0.5 amps at 15v. Let's say the average is 0.25 amps. It takes 4 hours to
> > get from 13.5v to 15v; so they are providing 0.25a x 4h = 1 amphour of
> > equalization without ever reaching 15v.
> >
> > Or, you can charge to a higher voltage but limit the time. 15.5v at 2
> > amps for 30 minutes is also 1 amphour. In fact, there is evidence that
> > higher currents do a better job of equalzation. Hawker suggests
> > equalizing at 2 amps with *no voltage limit*, for example. The key here
> > is that you need to *know* that there is room for that extra 1 amhour.
> > You don't blindly charge at 15.5v and 2 amps into an already-full
> > battery; that will only force it to gas; the internal pressure goes up;
> > it gets hot, vents, loses water, and is damaged.
> >
> > The key for AGMs is not to blindly hold some voltage limit; but to
> > *know* the state of charge, and put in the *right* amount of overcharge
> > to bring it to full. The actual voltage and current you apply to do this
> > has rather wide limits.
> > --
> > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > Forget the perfect offering
> > There is a crack in everything
> > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Um Why not ask Me or Joe since we build and test them.
The QC for a Mk2B Reg is 2.8 to 3.2 amps. They Pass if they meet this spec.
clearly they get hot doing this.
They need to shut off and go into thermal Stand by at 220 to 240 Deg F. And
they must turn back on at no less than 160 F.
Most run in the 200 to 210 window and kick back on at about 180 Deg F.
We can adjust for special applications.
On the Current Rev of Mk2B regs the external load path stays active without
any current limits Even when the on board current controlled path is in
thermal stand by.
This supports fan cooling and continuous greater than 45 watt loads.
If a Reg won't pass more than 2 amps with the Green LED locked on.. Time for
a new one. Wash with warm soapy water, and blow dry first. Then retest.
Also I just removed the "Blown" Mk2B reg from Goldie's miss hap.
VERY cool it just ate the fuse!!
Wow 144 volts across a Mk2B reg.. and no Damage except for a 25 cent fuse.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: regulation current was:Some problems to solve
> Hi Ryan,
> It is true that the charger current can be higher than 0.4A, however it
> won't take long before one battery will essentially be wanting to take
very
> close to 0 amps, and thus the charger will be close to the 0.4A level.
I've
> seen this with the CV charging that I do, charge current quickly drops to
> near zero.
>
> Has anyone measured the actual current that can be bypassed by a Rudman
> regulator continuously. Manzanita Micro web site says 2A. I don't see
how
> this is possible though.
>
> Chris Brune
>
> From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >So if the battery is at 14.8V then the reg can bypass 0.4A
> > >continuously.
> > >
> > That doesn't necessarily mean the charger has to throttle back to .4A.
> > Shunting some of the current through the regulator instead of the
> > battery can keep that battery at bay until the others catch up. It does
> > eventually hit a point where the battery is simply full, and it would
> > have to shunt more current to keep the battery (AGM) from exceeding a
> > safe voltage level. If the others haven't caught up yet, then that's
> > the time to signal the charger for it to cut back.
> >
> > -Ryan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
0 - 45 in 30 seconds ....on 48 volts .....4 door Geo metro
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> I would like to put together a spreadsheet with some real data on
> acceleration. Much like the range discussion that we have been
having. I'd like the
> following information from anyone with real world road experience
on their EV. I
> want to take this and do a cost comparison on acceleration vs
system cost and
> find the optimal point performance point for any given cost.
>
>
> I am looking for acceleration data in the range of 4 - 40 sec for
0 - 45 MPH
> with cars / trucks between 1500 lb and 5500 lb.
>
> Acceleration from 0 - 45 (on the flat, 40 degrees F ambient) with
the
> following variables:
> - Vehicle - make, model, year
> - Transmission - manual or auto, specify with or without clutch
> - Vehicle Weight
> - Number and type of batteries with manufacturer
> - Motor - Size and Manufacturer
> - Controller - Motor Amps Max, Manufacturer, any extra details
like limited
> to 500 A for battery protection
> - Wire size for battery interconnects and long runs
>
> Here is an example (that I just made up because I don't have the
car handy to
> clock):
> 0 - 45 in 22 sec (roughly)
> - 1980 Jet Electra 007
> - 4 speed manual with clutch
> - 3800 lb (roughly)
> - 20 x 6 V deep cycle flooded US2200 with about 1 year of break in
> - GE 9" Series Wound - 23 HP at 96 V (I think)
> - GE EV-1C - 300 A max, limited to control heat on main SCR
> - 2/0 wires all the way around
>
> 0 - 45 not possible (top speed was 37 MPH on the flat)
> - 1970 Saab Sonett
> - 4 speed manual with clutch
> - 1900 lb (roughly)
> - 6 x 6 V deep cycle flooded T105
> - Yale lift motor - 7" X 12" - Series Wound
> - GE EV-1B - 500 A max when using bypass but only for brief
periods,
> realistically 300 A sustainable
> - 1/0 for battery connections, 2/0 for long runs
>
> 0 - 45 in about 25 sec (0 - 40 in 20 sec)
> -Car described in 1980 EV Book
> - 4 speed manual with clutch
> - 2000 lb
> - 2 strings of 4 x 12 V = 48 V = 8 deep cycle 12 V batteries total
> - Compound wound J&H Starter Generator
> - Contactor controller
> - wiring unknown
>
> If you send me data, I'll compile it and write a brief summary. I
hope
> someone will come back with info on a car that can do 0 - 45 in 8
sec.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve Powers
> Atlanta, GA
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
25 miles on 48 volts 50% discharge 4 door metro
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Way off here. Hawker batteries 'can' be smaller, as they make a lot of
> models to choose from. Lighter duty? This one had me laughing, sorry,
> I'm not making fun of you. Hawkers are legendary for their 'extreme'
> heavy duty nature! Little 13.5 lb. Hawkers belt out 800 amps all the
way
> down a drag strip! I know of no other lead acid battery (excluding TMF
> type) that can routinely do this without harm. Hawker also makes deep
> cycle AGM group 31 12V batteries (larger than the group 34 Optima YT
and
> the same size as Optima's group 31 model), and very soon will have an
> Optima sized drop-in replacement. Yes, many use the smaller sized
> Hawkers as 12V accessory batteries, but many have also used larger
> hawkers to power their entire EV. One of my EVs runs on 29 Hawker
batteries.
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
The SBS40 (orange-jacketed Hawker for UPS use) in our ICE died a week
ago due to leaving on an interior light for several days. It was
replaced with a 16Ah Hawker - kicks the motor over like crazy, but
with that small of capacity, I warned my wife not to leave anything on
when the engine isn't also running!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Funny thought...
A Reg with out dissapation But still with charger control, WILL regulate the
whole string, and keep all concerned under control.
I did this with the Mk3 Digi Regs last week.
ALL the current was still going through the batteries still, But any battery
could kick the charger back if not off.
You would think that this would not work at all. It works just fine, your
battery voltage swings get pretty large. The one or two that are controlling
the pull back current are of course at 14.79 volts, The rest sag back to
what ever they are at. Some sag a couple volts, some hold thier own but are
in the high 14.5 and up range. This really shows what active regulation does
for battery to battery voltage ranges.
The Basic fact is it works!!! without ANY power dissapation except the LED
of course. You don't get any faster equalization that holding a pack at peak
voltage for a extened time, BUT your don't get any wilde voltage
fluctuations. Safe but slow.
The next scare test is to montior the battery voltages, and then dissable
the bypass and dissable the charger feed back channel. This is the same as a
charger and no Regs.. a good voltage regulated charger I might add, but no
protection. In seconds you have batteries over 16 volts, and some dropping
to 13 volts.
Do this once.. and you will never let it happen to your AGM pack again. It's
that fast and brutal.
There is NO DOUBT that I have learned a Lot doing this Mk3 Digi project.
I wish I had these tool years ago.
Now back to making them happen.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: regulation current was:Some problems to solve
> Hi Chris and all,
>
> >So if the battery is at 14.8V then the reg can bypass 0.4A
> >continuously.
> >
> That doesn't necessarily mean the charger has to throttle back to .4A.
> Shunting some of the current through the regulator instead of the
> battery can keep that battery at bay until the others catch up. It does
> eventually hit a point where the battery is simply full, and it would
> have to shunt more current to keep the battery (AGM) from exceeding a
> safe voltage level. If the others haven't caught up yet, then that's
> the time to signal the charger for it to cut back.
>
> -Ryan
> --
> - EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
> Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A point about the Regs.
They dissapate in pulses. NOT continuously.
So they Blip on at 45 watts for about .1 second.
So.. they never have to run at the .4 amps mode. Plus the heatsink that is
a 637-15abp really needs airflow.. and a Fan on the external load blown into
the heat sink has a dramatic effect on The
hang time a Reg can stand a hard over charge. I do this on problem batteries
or when I am hammering in a new pack. Once you have about 3 cycles on a pack
you really don't need the massive dissapation and fans. On a hot day.. they
really help out.
Locked on at 1 volt over the setpoint they thermal out in less than 45
seconds. When in thermal....they don't protect the Battery, And if they are
connected to the charger with the RegBuss.. they pause the chargers. Keeping
damage from occuring.
Now on the new version..about 2 years old.. Every time the Reg fires at
14.8... for .1 seconds the hot Reg line goes active.. so the charger gets a
pulse train of hot signals, instead of, the solid I AM HOT!
The charger has a slow integrator on the controller PCB now.. this
transforms the pulse trains into a slow pull back signal.. and the charger
pulls back smoothly...or smoother than it did. So you get a reduction in
power that should reduce the stress on the Regs, and still keep as many amps
flowing as possible.
Tuned right...as we now see it.. adjusting the Reg pull back pot sets
the avearge heat of all the Regs. With few if any solid over temp events.
The charger responds to the Regs.. and throttles back... when the total pack
voltage gets high enough...all the regs are working and all the batteries
are up.. then the voltage limit circuit takes over... you get a Yellow
LED...then you really do have a full equalized pack.. and the timer is
engaged..it times out.. and the charger finally get to drop to stand by
mode.
In most cases only one or two batteries really hammer back the
charger...As you have noted. The ones that pull back the hardest while the
charger is still at high current are NOT the ones that are holding back the
charger at low amps. Funny but that's the way it works. The health of the
pack..dictates how that works.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: regulation current was:Some problems to solve
Hello,
Ralph Merwin and I have discussed pretty much the same thing with his
batteries.
Are you running your regulators "loadless"?
>From the pics on the Manzanita Micro web site it looks like Rich is using a
Wakefield 637-15ABP heatsink for the internal load. This is rated for 65°C
rise at 6W dissipation. I believe he targets shutting down the reg at
100°C, so if the ambient of the reg is about 35°C (warm day under cover?)
were about there for temp rise. So the reg can dissipate 6W. Being that
heatsink is not vertically mounted like it is designed for this may be a bit
optimistic even. So if the battery is at 14.8V then the reg can bypass 0.4A
continuously. I'm certainly not a PFC charger expert, but my understanding
is that the regs throttle back the charger and keep the regs from going
beyond the over-temp threshold. So if there is one battery that has
throttled back the charger to 0.4A then there could be a lot of batteries
that are not getting the charge current they desire.
In Ralph's case I think this problem was even worse than yours because he is
running a double string of Optimas. With only a single reg across each
pair.
So if you let the charger and regs run long enough then eventually all the
batteries should come up as I believe Roger indicated in a later post.
Another option that Ralph played with a bit is putting an external load on
the regs that come up first thus allowing the charge current to be kept
higher.
I believe Ralph also determined that this problem was worse when the
batteries were heated with his battery heating system.
Does anyone know if it degrades the life of an Optima or Orbital to hold it
14.7V for a long period of time (like several hours) while you are waiting
for all the batteries to come up?
Essentially the individual chargers on my car hold at 14.7V till I unplug
them. I have the whole car on a cheap timer, but sometimes they'll be on
for several hours at 14.7V. I haven't noticed a big problem with this so
far.
Regards,
Chris Brune
From: "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Apparently, I am one of the poor, unfortunate souls with 25 Orbitals that
> just can't seem to agree on a common voltage. I have Mk2/2b regs on each
> one, which I feel have been very useful from the standpoint of
communicating
> with the charger and not allowing me to overcharge my batteries. However,
I
> have quite a few that hit the 14.8 V mark and start blinking while others
> want to hang out around 13 and small change. Could it be that I've abused
> them with 1400+ Amp discharges at the track? Absolutely. ;-)
>
> Still, I'd like them to play together more nicely. Maybe I'm just not
> allowing them to finish charge long enough, and need to increase the
> timeout. Right now, it's an hour, but maybe it needs to be more like two
> hours at 1-2 amps while held at the 14.8 V limit.
--- End Message ---
