EV Digest 5386
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Knee Point - Does anyone understand this?
by "Dale Curren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Have been collecting range data, how about acceleration data
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV digest 5384
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: longest range?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Metro Brake Cylinder (Was: Angle Iron to Chassis)
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Correct Optima Charging (was: Some problems to solve)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Lithium Ion Polymer Batteries
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Have been collecting range data, how about acceleration data
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: longest range?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Some Lithium Polymer to experiment with (BMS)
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Battery comparison
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Correct Optima Charging (was: Some problems to solve)
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Have been collecting range data, how about acceleration data
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Switched Capacitor Equalization of Long Strings WAS: Some problemsto
solve
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: longest range?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: sheilding for zilla wiring
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
** Reply to message from "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Mon, 17
Apr 2006 16:46:01 -0700
>Field current is generally controlled as a function of armature current,
>so, yes, the field "weakening" starts to kick in gradually and ramps until
>it is fully "in".
>I think "weakening" may be the confusing thing here. If you just think
>of it as the field current ramping up as armature current ramps up, it
>might seem clearer.
I thought the fields were weakened (less current) as the motor rpms increased.
This causes the armature to spin even faster as it tries to generate the
nearly-equal-to-the-pack-voltage BEMF
>It sounds like you have a GE controller, and I'm not familiar with their
>configuration options, but the general behaviour is that there is some
>minimum field current value that must always be provided to the motor.
>Lowering this minimum field current can raise the motor RPM and vehicle
>top speed, but if you go below the motor manufacturer's recommended
>limit you may destroy the motor with arcing. As armature current
>increases, the field current remains constant at this minimum value
>until the armature current exceeds some threshold (determined by the
>parameter you are configuring). As the armature current continues to
>increase beyond this point, the field current also increases, according
>to whatever map or ramp rates your controller allows you to program.
Is the previous sentence correct? Doesn't the field current decrease?
>Eventually the field current reaches some maximum level, and remains
>at that level no matter how much higher the armature current climbs.
Doesn't the field current reach a lowered (rather than maximum) level?
Dale Curren
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You cant gather this data from the nedra site and then
looking at the info of each vehicle from the owners
sites?
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I would like to put together a spreadsheet with some
> real data on
> acceleration. Much like the range discussion that
> we have been having. I'd like the
> following information from anyone with real world
> road experience on their EV. I
> want to take this and do a cost comparison on
> acceleration vs system cost and
> find the optimal point performance point for any
> given cost.
>
>
> I am looking for acceleration data in the range of 4
> - 40 sec for 0 - 45 MPH
> with cars / trucks between 1500 lb and 5500 lb.
>
> Acceleration from 0 - 45 (on the flat, 40 degrees F
> ambient) with the
> following variables:
> - Vehicle - make, model, year
> - Transmission - manual or auto, specify with or
> without clutch
> - Vehicle Weight
> - Number and type of batteries with manufacturer
> - Motor - Size and Manufacturer
> - Controller - Motor Amps Max, Manufacturer, any
> extra details like limited
> to 500 A for battery protection
> - Wire size for battery interconnects and long runs
>
> Here is an example (that I just made up because I
> don't have the car handy to
> clock):
> 0 - 45 in 22 sec (roughly)
> - 1980 Jet Electra 007
> - 4 speed manual with clutch
> - 3800 lb (roughly)
> - 20 x 6 V deep cycle flooded US2200 with about 1
> year of break in
> - GE 9" Series Wound - 23 HP at 96 V (I think)
> - GE EV-1C - 300 A max, limited to control heat on
> main SCR
> - 2/0 wires all the way around
>
> 0 - 45 not possible (top speed was 37 MPH on the
> flat)
> - 1970 Saab Sonett
> - 4 speed manual with clutch
> - 1900 lb (roughly)
> - 6 x 6 V deep cycle flooded T105
> - Yale lift motor - 7" X 12" - Series Wound
> - GE EV-1B - 500 A max when using bypass but only
> for brief periods,
> realistically 300 A sustainable
> - 1/0 for battery connections, 2/0 for long runs
>
> 0 - 45 in about 25 sec (0 - 40 in 20 sec)
> -Car described in 1980 EV Book
> - 4 speed manual with clutch
> - 2000 lb
> - 2 strings of 4 x 12 V = 48 V = 8 deep cycle 12 V
> batteries total
> - Compound wound J&H Starter Generator
> - Contactor controller
> - wiring unknown
>
> If you send me data, I'll compile it and write a
> brief summary. I hope
> someone will come back with info on a car that can
> do 0 - 45 in 8 sec.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve Powers
> Atlanta, GA
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
"I plan to do the same for mine, the EV equivalent of the Hooker
header, Accel/MSD ignition, Edelbrock manifold, etc. stickers you see
in the rear/quarter windows of our ICE counterparts.
Any chance you (or anyone else) have good quality logos in electronic
form for some of the popular components (e.g. Kilovac, Optima, DCP,
etc.) and/or the popular parts suppliers (eg. EVParts, Canadian
Electric Vehicles, etc.)?"
Not anymore, that was many years ago. But you should be able to get
them off of some of the websites. That looked good at about 1" high or
less. For higher resolution graphics, I'd email them and ask for them
to email a file to you.
David Brandt
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One important thing to say about this OEM car: it has an initial nicad range
of 60-65 miles, switching to lithium result in more than twice initial EV
grin :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 12:58 AM
Subject: Re: longest range?
> I am jealous....
> I am only getting about 20 km's before i get into danger zone on my batts.
> Something like 40 SOC. Thats with plenty of stop and start.
>
> Not good at all, serves me right however, for using marine batts and a low
> voltage.
> Next batteries will be T-1275 golf 12 volt batts 150 amp hour.
>
> Should be a little stiffer than my SCS225.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> >From: Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: longest range?
> >Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 23:17:29 +0300
> >
> >A bit over 150 miles with Citroen Berligo Lithium.
> >
> >http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/641.html
> >
> >-Jukka
> >
> >
> >Alan Smith kirjoitti:
> >>What is the longest range everyone has gotten on their ev? If you've
> >>gotten
> >>over 60, definitely let me know.
> >>
> >>Thanks, Alan
> >>
> >>--
> >>// Quotes from yours truly -------------------------
> >>"You don't forget, you just don't remember."
> >>"Maturity resides in the mind."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >--
> >Jukka Järvinen
> >R&D Director
> >Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
> >Teollisuuskatu 24
> >11100 RIHIMÄKI
> >FINLAND
> >VAT ID: FI18534078
> >
> >jukka.jarvinen(a_t)fevt.com
> >mobile. +358-440-735705
> >fax. +358-19-735705
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Read, write and reply to Hotmail on your mobile. Find out more.
> http://mobilecentral.ninemsn.com.au/mcmobileHotmail/home.aspx
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Bill, I'm very interested in any details you can provide about what was
>involved in grafting the Honda master cylinder onto the Metro.
There were three steps involved.
1) I got a master cylinder from a 1987 Honda. Though the Honda cylinder
attaches with only two bolts instead of the Metro's four bolts, they're
spaced the same distance as the Metro bolts, so it's a drop-in fit.
2) Next I fashioned a push rod. I bought a 110mm bolt (I think it was M10
x 1.25), and cut off the head, then ground the top down to the shape of the
Honda push rod http://www.users.qwest.net/~denniswilliamsha/BrakeBolt.jpg --
the threads of the bolt then screw into the clevis.
3) The final step is adding a splitter. The Metro cylinder has three lines
coming off of it, as seen in this image:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~denniswilliamsha/BrakeLines.JPG. The Honda
cylinder, however, has only two. So I got a brake line splitter from a 1995
Toyota 4Runner (though most any Toyota seems to have them). Here's a
picture of it in place:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~denniswilliamsha/BrakeSplitter.JPG. As you can
see, the front line of the cylinder attaches to the splitter. What you
can't see in the photo is that the left side of the splitter then attaches
to the proportioning valve on the left, and the right side attaches to the
driver's side front wheel.
Hope this helps.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maximizing cycle life for an Optima AGM is a compromise
between sulfation and losing water. If you charge them to 14.8 volts
and then stop, they will die a premature death of sulfation on the
negative plate. This is because the charge efficiency of the negative
plate in an AGM is slightly less than the positive plate. (This is
because the recombination process is not quite perfect.)
If you force in an 8% overcharge at 2 amps, you will fully
charge the negative plate, prevent the sulfation, but lose a little
water while you are doing it. The batteries will last the greatest
number of cycles if you do it this way. You will run out of water at
about the same time as the paste will degrade if you charge this way.
Any other charge profile will result in a shorter cycle life.
This is a fact, it is not an opinion. This charge profile is
the result of many years of cycle life testing at the Optima Battery
Company. I get this information straight from the guy that ran the
Optima research effort, Dr. John Olson.
Bill Dube'
At 12:15 AM 4/19/2006, you wrote:
It is important to not confuse terms here:
Gassing an AGM is not a disaster. They have a recombination mechanism that
converts the H2 and O2 back into water. As long as the recombination
mechanism capability exceeds the gassing rate, the battery will not vent.
Gassing is permitted as long as the water never leaves the battery. Venting
dries out the battery as water leaves the enclosure. A little bit is
expected but don't do it intentionally for any significant period of time.
Gassing a flooded battery is expected. Gassing and venting are the same if
there is no recombination mechanism. Some flooded batteries have had
recombiners to reduce water consumption. Gassing stirs the electrolyte to
get the plates evenly charged. If you don't gas a flooded battery, it is not
fully charged. At least not in a reasonable period of time for use in a
daily discharge application.
Holding an AGM above 14 volts for a few hours is not a disaster. You can
listen to them to see if they are venting. Optimas click when the pressure
relief valve lets the gas out. If you do it for a couple hours when
commissioning the pack, it will not significantly reduce the life of the
batteries. It has been discussed on this list several times what is a
reasonable equalization rate for AGMs. Numbers from .2 amps to 2 amps have
been suggested. Any of those numbers could be correct depending on the
history of the batteries in the pack. The only way to know is to listen to
them. If you hear significant venting, back off the current.
My suggestion is to leave the regulators set to the mid 14's and let the
charger taper down as the regulators hold the charger back. Watch the pack
voltage climb as the lower batteries climb. When you get done, all the regs
will be blinking. If you want to add some interest to the experiment, record
the voltage of each battery every 15 minutes. You will see how long it takes
to get XX number of batteries fully charged. You don't need to do all the
batteries in one day. You can do it on several days while using the vehicle.
You just need to allow enough time to let the regs do their job.
Rich did some experiments with Goldie when he installed the Orbitals. He did
it again when he installed the Orbitals in the Fiero. It took many hours
over several days to get the last low battery to finish charging and blink
the green. IIRC, after about a week, all of the batteries would blink the
green within a 2 to 5 minute period at end of charge. That was what he
called a 'well equalized pack'.
Yes, the equalize switch was included for flooded batteries. You can use it
on AGMs, but it was not intended to be used for them.
Yes, I agree with you that you are not letting the regs do their job. You
need to let the charger run until all the greens have flashed and the
current has tapered below 2 amps. Letting it run longer heats the batteries.
This may be desirable in cold weather but is a waste of energy if you don't
need the heat. As the batteries adjust to each other and finish charging
together, you can reduce the timer setting to avoid the unnecessary charge
time.
The easy way to tell if all the batteries have flashed the green is to do a
hard acceleration when the batteries are nearly expended. This causes the
red undervoltage indicator to illuminate on all the regs. When the green
illuminates on each reg during charge, it will turn off the red. To inspect
to see if any battery had flashed the green, just verify the red has been
turned off. If any red is still illuminated, the pack needs more charging
time.
I hope this gives you more insight into how the regs were designed to be
used and how batteries will behave both during break in and later in their
lifetime.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 12:08 PM
Subject: RE: Some problems to solve
> Dear Rich and Lee:
>
> You are killing me. ;-)
>
> Apparently, I am one of the poor, unfortunate souls with 25 Orbitals that
> just can't seem to agree on a common voltage. I have Mk2/2b regs on each
> one, which I feel have been very useful from the standpoint of
communicating
> with the charger and not allowing me to overcharge my batteries. However,
I
> have quite a few that hit the 14.8 V mark and start blinking while others
> want to hang out around 13 and small change. Could it be that I've abused
> them with 1400+ Amp discharges at the track? Absolutely. ;-)
>
> Still, I'd like them to play together more nicely. Maybe I'm just not
> allowing them to finish charge long enough, and need to increase the
> timeout. Right now, it's an hour, but maybe it needs to be more like two
> hours at 1-2 amps while held at the 14.8 V limit.
>
> Anyway, all this talk of equalization finally got me inspired to put it to
> the test last night. I thought, "maybe I should take better care of my
poor
> batteries and treat them to a nice equalization charge!" (their first
ever).
> After topping up the pack with a normal charge cycle to about 345 V, I
> followed the equalization procedure, but chickened out after about 40
> minutes. Some of the batteries got up around 15.5 V, while half of the
> pack's batteries were still wallowing around 13.2 V. This was at a charge
> current of 1 amp and pack voltage got to about 360 V. Ten minutes of me
> nervously pacing around the car, sticking my face over each battery and
> sniffing for any hint of venting gas got old very quickly.
>
> Needless to say, hearing today that I should NEVER equalize my pack of
> Orbitals kinda bummed me out, even if there is some disagreement on the
> subject. If I can avoid the equalization stage in the future, that's
great.
> But in the meantime, what's the best way to get all the batteries in line?
> I'm not a fan of charging individually since I've done it before with only
> short term satisfaction. The batteries soon get out of whack again.
>
> Am I the only one experiencing this? How are others' Orbitals/AGMs doing,
> and what charging regimen do you use?
>
> Matt Graham
> 300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
> http://www.jouleinjected.com
> Hobe Sound, FL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The cost of making lithium poly batteries is more than just the
material, it is the machines and the space and power to run them in.
These are lengthy continous lines. Kokam,I hear,has enough room for a
second line and enough excess capacity on one line to maybe double it's
output. (put on more people, and run around the clock) These are not
easily reverseable decisions, So not only do they need a big purchase to
justify it, they need a promise of continued elevation of sales.
After that, someone has to invest in more space!
I looked into buying the chemicals for the making of 100ah li-ion cells
at the rate of 100 cells a month and found very few willing to sell such
small amounts, either lab qty at $100 for 2oz or a rail car, nothing in
between. To get a better price on cells will require subsequent
renegotiating of prices of raw materials.
All we got to do is form a car company and promise to buy 300,000 cells
a year and it will happen ;-) I think we can expect a reduction in price
of 1/2 to 2/3. 1/10 the price or a 90% reduction is dreaming.
The question is can we make it.
will people buy this
10K battery gaurenteed for 5 years or 100,000 miles
6K 100kw AC drive system
10K crashtested custom body
_________________________________
26K car seats 4-1/2 and goes 100 miles on a charge
71*3.7*100ah = 26270wh * .8 =21kWh / 200wh/mile = 105miles real range.
This is a 422Lb pack, close to 500 with BMS and case, I am sure.
The only problem area I see is pack replacement cost and pack
shelf-life. Will the prices drop enough in the first 5 years of battery
production to get the pack replacment cost down and how to you convince
buyers that that will happen.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
I was excited to see this request for acceleration specs, until I
realized my car has to be excluded :-(
Steve wrote:
I would like to put together a spreadsheet with some real data on
acceleration. I am looking for acceleration data in the range of 4 - 40 sec for 0 - 45 MPH
with cars / trucks between 1500 lb and 5500 lb.
Steve's range of 4 - 40 seconds takes my car out of the performance
window he's set, as it accelerates from 0 to 60 mph in less than 4
seconds, so I guess I've got to sit this one out.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To strengthen what victor said
"you don't get what you don't pay for"
However, I disagree with your statement victor about selling just a few
motors at a higher margin than more motors at a lower margin just in
that it doesn't promote EV's or even furthor sales. As early adopters, I
think we need to be more EVangilistic than that. :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My humble opinion and test about claimed 20C continous lipoly pack (i tested
>2100mah type< Kokam, TP pro-lite and MaxAmps lipoly single cell) :
Yes they do 20C... but not for a long time: so continuous is definitely not
the right adjective !
During such hard discharge their temperature climb to the sky, so you have
to stop or to cry your batteries: so continuous is definitely not the right
adjective !
They loose A LOT of capacity at 20C: expect only arround 60% nominal
capacity before hurting 3,2V: so continuous is definitely not the right
adjective !
They loose in the process A LOT of cyclic life: read 500 initial claimed
cycles cut by 10 which will give you a spectacular resulting 50
charges/discharge life: so continuous is definitely not the right adjective
!
conclusion:
imho there is actually NO 20C continuous lipoly available, 8 to 10C
continuous, yes few of them can give it and stay alive 1 year or little
more, Kokam is one of the best, the one in fact :^) for EV sized batteries
for sure !
15-20C is burst power and a danger zone to avoid !!!
5C continuous and 10C max will give you what i suppose all want to pay for =
performances AND long play time.
But one thing is great by killing with such hard discharges lipoly... you
don't care anymore about their short calendar Life :^)
I was told Milwaukee V28 cells (which are not lipo) can take 20C
continuously without any problems so i asked to have few for bringing my
race Emotor-scooter to an European EV show....i'm still waiting fo an
answer...seems i don't asked the good personn :^(
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 4:50 AM
Subject: Some Lithium Polymer to experiment with (BMS)
> "FMA Kokam LiPo battery packs have been replaced by the new Cellpro
> line of LiPo batteries. The size and weight of the packs has remained
> about the same. The new packs have an added cell tap connector. This
> allows the individual cells of a pack to be monitored, and for the
> pack to be balanced."
>
> http://www.hobby-lobby.com/kokam.htm
>
> "Charging process is automatic"
>
> http://www.hobby-lobby.com/chargers_lipoly.htm
>
>
> "Thunder Power "Pro Lite" 1320 mAh packs come pre-wired with a plug
> that mates with the 2-5 cell LiPoly cell balancer "
>
> "NEW! 2100 mAh "Pro Lite" Lithium Poly Cells with cell balance connector,
> discharge at up to 31 amps continuous"
>
> http://www.hobby-lobby.com/thunderpower.htm
>
>
> "Best? All Poly-Quest "Twenty" brand lipoly packs can be discharged at
> a rate 20 times their capacity. Example: a 1200 mAh (1.2 Amp hour)
> pack can be discharged at 24 amps and a 3700 mAh pack at 74 amps
> continuous. This is NOT the peak discharge rate; it is the rate that
> these packs can be discharged at CONTINUOUSLY."
>
> "Overcharging a Lithium battery is dangerous, it can ruin the battery
> and can cause a fire. PCM Guard monitors each cell in the pack and
> will disconnect the battery pack from the charger if any cell exceeds
> 4.2 volts. Order the PCM Guard that matches the number of cells in
> series in your pack."
>
> http://www.hobby-lobby.com/polyquest.htm
>
>
> I thought this was fitting:
>
> "I used to like pattern aerobatics with nice glow engine powered
> airplanes. Then I got into electric flight in the 80's because at that
> time it was more of a challenge, ie; it didn't work very well, and it
> was fun to see if you could get the heavy underpowered things to
> actually fly. "
>
> http://www.hobby-lobby.com/employee.htm
>
> It's easy to make a gas car fast.. A bit more challenging(fun) to do
> it with an electric..
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not trying to spark a "which battery is better" debate. My question is
more related to battery type or model.
I keep seeing vendor names like Orbital, Hawker and Optima.
Optima batteries I'm familiar with. I have one in my DeLorean. I visited the
Orbital website and it seems to me that Orbitals are the same thing only
they are manufactured by Exide.
Is this correct?
Hawker batteries appear to be a different animal. AGM technology but they
appear to be smaller for lighter duty. Definitely not traction
batteries...not for a 4 wheel vehicle anyway. I've read that some of you use
them for accessory batteries. Is this correct?
Does Orbital have an advantage over Optima? What are good applications for
Hawker batteries?
Thanks,
Rich A.
Maryland
'81 Comuta Van
_________________________________________________________________
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It sounds like the doctor is a good resource. Is his direct
information published anywhere? Would you ask him if ACP had any
influence on their Optimas?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Maximizing cycle life for an Optima AGM is a compromise
> between sulfation and losing water. If you charge them to 14.8 volts
> and then stop, they will die a premature death of sulfation on the
> negative plate. This is because the charge efficiency of the negative
> plate in an AGM is slightly less than the positive plate. (This is
> because the recombination process is not quite perfect.)
>
> If you force in an 8% overcharge at 2 amps, you will fully
> charge the negative plate, prevent the sulfation, but lose a little
> water while you are doing it. The batteries will last the greatest
> number of cycles if you do it this way. You will run out of water at
> about the same time as the paste will degrade if you charge this way.
> Any other charge profile will result in a shorter cycle life.
>
> This is a fact, it is not an opinion. This charge profile is
> the result of many years of cycle life testing at the Optima Battery
> Company. I get this information straight from the guy that ran the
> Optima research effort, Dr. John Olson.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
> At 12:15 AM 4/19/2006, you wrote:
> >It is important to not confuse terms here:
> >
> >Gassing an AGM is not a disaster. They have a recombination
mechanism that
> >converts the H2 and O2 back into water. As long as the recombination
> >mechanism capability exceeds the gassing rate, the battery will not
vent.
> >Gassing is permitted as long as the water never leaves the battery.
Venting
> >dries out the battery as water leaves the enclosure. A little bit is
> >expected but don't do it intentionally for any significant period
of time.
> >
> >Gassing a flooded battery is expected. Gassing and venting are the
same if
> >there is no recombination mechanism. Some flooded batteries have had
> >recombiners to reduce water consumption. Gassing stirs the
electrolyte to
> >get the plates evenly charged. If you don't gas a flooded battery,
it is not
> >fully charged. At least not in a reasonable period of time for use in a
> >daily discharge application.
> >
> >Holding an AGM above 14 volts for a few hours is not a disaster.
You can
> >listen to them to see if they are venting. Optimas click when the
pressure
> >relief valve lets the gas out. If you do it for a couple hours when
> >commissioning the pack, it will not significantly reduce the life
of the
> >batteries. It has been discussed on this list several times what is a
> >reasonable equalization rate for AGMs. Numbers from .2 amps to 2
amps have
> >been suggested. Any of those numbers could be correct depending on the
> >history of the batteries in the pack. The only way to know is to
listen to
> >them. If you hear significant venting, back off the current.
> >
> >My suggestion is to leave the regulators set to the mid 14's and
let the
> >charger taper down as the regulators hold the charger back. Watch
the pack
> >voltage climb as the lower batteries climb. When you get done, all
the regs
> >will be blinking. If you want to add some interest to the
experiment, record
> >the voltage of each battery every 15 minutes. You will see how long
it takes
> >to get XX number of batteries fully charged. You don't need to do
all the
> >batteries in one day. You can do it on several days while using the
vehicle.
> >You just need to allow enough time to let the regs do their job.
> >
> >Rich did some experiments with Goldie when he installed the
Orbitals. He did
> >it again when he installed the Orbitals in the Fiero. It took many
hours
> >over several days to get the last low battery to finish charging
and blink
> >the green. IIRC, after about a week, all of the batteries would
blink the
> >green within a 2 to 5 minute period at end of charge. That was what he
> >called a 'well equalized pack'.
> >
> >Yes, the equalize switch was included for flooded batteries. You
can use it
> >on AGMs, but it was not intended to be used for them.
> >
> >Yes, I agree with you that you are not letting the regs do their
job. You
> >need to let the charger run until all the greens have flashed and the
> >current has tapered below 2 amps. Letting it run longer heats the
batteries.
> >This may be desirable in cold weather but is a waste of energy if
you don't
> >need the heat. As the batteries adjust to each other and finish
charging
> >together, you can reduce the timer setting to avoid the unnecessary
charge
> >time.
> >
> >The easy way to tell if all the batteries have flashed the green is
to do a
> >hard acceleration when the batteries are nearly expended. This
causes the
> >red undervoltage indicator to illuminate on all the regs. When the
green
> >illuminates on each reg during charge, it will turn off the red. To
inspect
> >to see if any battery had flashed the green, just verify the red
has been
> >turned off. If any red is still illuminated, the pack needs more
charging
> >time.
> >
> >I hope this gives you more insight into how the regs were designed
to be
> >used and how batteries will behave both during break in and later
in their
> >lifetime.
> >
> >Joe Smalley
> >Rural Kitsap County WA
> >Fiesta 48 volts
> >NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 12:08 PM
> >Subject: RE: Some problems to solve
> >
> >
> > > Dear Rich and Lee:
> > >
> > > You are killing me. ;-)
> > >
> > > Apparently, I am one of the poor, unfortunate souls with 25
Orbitals that
> > > just can't seem to agree on a common voltage. I have Mk2/2b regs
on each
> > > one, which I feel have been very useful from the standpoint of
> >communicating
> > > with the charger and not allowing me to overcharge my batteries.
However,
> >I
> > > have quite a few that hit the 14.8 V mark and start blinking
while others
> > > want to hang out around 13 and small change. Could it be that
I've abused
> > > them with 1400+ Amp discharges at the track? Absolutely. ;-)
> > >
> > > Still, I'd like them to play together more nicely. Maybe I'm
just not
> > > allowing them to finish charge long enough, and need to increase the
> > > timeout. Right now, it's an hour, but maybe it needs to be more
like two
> > > hours at 1-2 amps while held at the 14.8 V limit.
> > >
> > > Anyway, all this talk of equalization finally got me inspired to
put it to
> > > the test last night. I thought, "maybe I should take better care
of my
> >poor
> > > batteries and treat them to a nice equalization charge!" (their
first
> >ever).
> > > After topping up the pack with a normal charge cycle to about
345 V, I
> > > followed the equalization procedure, but chickened out after
about 40
> > > minutes. Some of the batteries got up around 15.5 V, while half
of the
> > > pack's batteries were still wallowing around 13.2 V. This was at
a charge
> > > current of 1 amp and pack voltage got to about 360 V. Ten
minutes of me
> > > nervously pacing around the car, sticking my face over each
battery and
> > > sniffing for any hint of venting gas got old very quickly.
> > >
> > > Needless to say, hearing today that I should NEVER equalize my
pack of
> > > Orbitals kinda bummed me out, even if there is some disagreement
on the
> > > subject. If I can avoid the equalization stage in the future, that's
> >great.
> > > But in the meantime, what's the best way to get all the
batteries in line?
> > > I'm not a fan of charging individually since I've done it before
with only
> > > short term satisfaction. The batteries soon get out of whack again.
> > >
> > > Am I the only one experiencing this? How are others'
Orbitals/AGMs doing,
> > > and what charging regimen do you use?
> > >
> > > Matt Graham
> > > 300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
> > > http://www.jouleinjected.com
> > > Hobe Sound, FL
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why not 0-60 instead of 0-45?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hello to All,
>
> I was excited to see this request for acceleration specs, until I
> realized my car has to be excluded :-(
>
> Steve wrote:
>
> >I would like to put together a spreadsheet with some real data on
> >acceleration. I am looking for acceleration data in the range of 4
- 40 sec for 0 - 45 MPH
> >with cars / trucks between 1500 lb and 5500 lb.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Steve's range of 4 - 40 seconds takes my car out of the performance
> window he's set, as it accelerates from 0 to 60 mph in less than 4
> seconds, so I guess I've got to sit this one out.
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Meta Bus wrote:
> What do you think of using switched-capacitance to equalize large
> strings? (A la http://www.smartsparkenergy.com/batteq.htm)
This is the old "flying capacitor" circuit. It's been invented and
re-invented many times. It is a good idea that doesn't actually work
very well.
The basic flying capacitor circuit winds up dissipating about half the
power in the resistance of the switches. And, to move any significant
amount of charge, the capacitor has to be enormous or the switching
frequency has to be very high.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Alan Smith wrote:
What is the longest range everyone has gotten on their ev? If you've gotten
over 60, definitely let me know.
Alan's request does not state specifics such as vehicle types (size and
weight), battery pack chemistry, battery pack weight and or BVWR
(battery to vehicle weight ratio), weather conditions, the type of
terrain, the average speed, the acceleration loads, the number of
passengers (if any), etc., etc. I think any response to this request
should include as much info as possible so those perusing the results
can know the full story. For me, it's not too impressive to say one got
60 miles of range, if they drove as if an egg were under their foot and
kept speeds at or under 40 mph, for example. On the other hand, if one
drove their EV like one normally does in a gas car, that is, accelerate
up to speed briskly to stay with traffic flow, run along at 60-70 mph
freeway speeds, climb various grades, and participate in stop and go
traffic driving situations....then achieve a real 50 miles, now that's
impressive.
Here's three examples from my own experiences:
(1) Circa 1984....Blue Meanie powered by just eight 6V wet cell lead
acid golf car batteries with a primitive 3 step controller ( 24V
w/resistor - 24V straight - 48V straight) and weighing about 1800 lbs.
with batteries, managed 54 miles in a closed loop range rally circuit in
Seattle against other EVs. That may seem impressive, until you realize
that the speed limit was a tepid 35 mph on flat terrain on a warm summer
day (best conditions for range using lead acid batteries). On average,
there were two passengers on board, and acceleration was sometimes
full-on tire spinning launches contrasted to sometimes old man type
starts (excludes Dick Finley type old men). The car had a bit about a
30% BVWR. Acceleration was pretty good for a 48V car, especially in the
0-40 mph range, but real life 0-60 was probably 15 seconds. Normal
everyday driving yielded about 25 miles range per charge.
(2) Circa 1997....Red Beastie powered by a whopping forty 6V wet cell
lead acid golf car batteries with a lower powered controller maxed out
at 450 amps (max current from each battery 250 amps) and weighing about
5300 lbs. with batteries, managed 120 miles in mostly 65 mph slow lane
freeway driving between Portland, OR and Seattle, WA on varying terrain
that included moderate hill climbing, on a warm summer day (best
conditions for range using lead acid batteries). There were no
passengers on board, and all accelerations up to speed were deliberately
careful to extend range. The truck had a 47% BVWR. Acceleration was OK
considering its portly 5300 lb. mass and a 120V 450 amp system. Real
life 0-60 was probably 16- 18 seconds. Normal everyday driving around
town with mixed city and slower 55 mph freeway driving (the speed limit
within the city) yielded about 130 miles range per charge.
(3) Circa 2000 or 2001? .......EV Rental car, a GM EV1 powered by about
1100 lbs. of Ovonics NiMH batteries with a high performance AC drive
system and weighing about 2900 lbs. with batteries, managed 110 miles in
mostly 70-80 mph freeway driving between Escondido, CA and LA, CA on
varying terrain that included moderate hill climbing, on a warm summer
day (not the best conditions for range using NiMH batteries, as they
like to be cooler). There were no passengers on board, and all
accelerations up to speed were deliberately brisk for fun factor. The
car had about 40% BVWR. Acceleration was stunning considering its range
capabilities. Real life 0-60 was in the mid to high 7 second range.
Here's an excerpt from my story 'Living in the Past, getting Beat by the
Future' (http://www.portev.org/commentary/living_in_the_past.htm):
At almost exactly 110 miles since I left the Saturn dealership, I had
pulled off the freeway and was on Century Drive, stopped at a traffic
light near EV Rentals. The EV1 had been flying along for about an hour
and a half at 70-80 mph speeds, and had never once felt like it was
running short on power. I noticed that there was an estimated 36 miles
left on the range meter, so when the light went green, I decided to see
what was left as I planted my right foot down one last
time.....screeeeechhhh....,chirp-chirp.....scrreeechh....damn that
traction control! What an EV! After running along at freeway speeds for
so long, and after 110 miles, the thing could still fry the tires at
will! I reluctantly pulled into the EV Rental lot and finding a
Magna-charger, parked my electric friend and slipped the charge paddle
into its nose.....29% battery left! And so ended my four day love affair
with the Gen II EV1...one terrific electric car.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My main contactor which is a large CableForm contactor which is 4 inches
wide by 9 inches high and 5 inches depth is place about 3 inches from the
connection bars on the Zilla. The hairball is place 1/2 inch above the
motor controller which is about 5 inches from the the side of the contactor.
The positive lead from the batteries, is connected to the top of this
contactor, which is about 6 inches from the hairball. Off the bottom of the
contactor, the power lead would be about 10 inches from the hairball.
The motor amp meter shunt is buss bar connected right to the bottom of this
contactor and than a short 6 inch run of power cable to the B+ on the Zilla
controller.
The B+ buss bar wire connection on the Zilla is only 1.25 from the cable.
The sense wires that come off this shunt is a 16 gage 19 strand copper, 600
volt rated that is twisted at about 1 turn per inch.
This is wire tie right to the incoming B+ from the battery and than bundle
to the incoming wires that go the hair ball and exit out and than is than
group together with the 12 vdc and even some 180 volt wires for the volt and
amp meter wires coming from the battery.
I also have the Zilla controller, Hairball and Contactor mounted on a common
1/4 inch thick chassis plate. This plate is mounted to a steel plate with
1/2 inch standoffs and all the units are mounted with 1/2 inch standoffs to
the aluminum chassis.
This allows for a external blower fan exhaust air above and below these
units.
The motor controller and hairball enclosures are grounded to the aluminum
chassis plate, plus a four No. 10 copper 19 strand grounding wires coming
off the four mounting bolts of each unit.
At each ground point, you must remove the paint and add a star washer for
good contact.
The equipment ground wires are than also connected to this aluminum chassis
plate, plus all these ground points are all connected together with a No. 8
wire ground buss. This No. 8 wire ground buss, exits and connects to a No 6
wire , or I may used two No. 10 wires parallel together which runs as a
ground buss surrounding the motor bay and the entire car.
This ground buss systems than connects and grounds to every section of the
vehicle sheet metal which loops around the motor bay and than the entire
car, that may have several minor ground loops.
I do not relied on just the sheet metal of a car to carry the ground
circuit. This causes voltage drop and induces noise.
I cross check the amp and volt meter reading with two other meters and I
cannot read hardly any difference.
The reason is, that all my meters are analog type. Analog meters are not as
affected by noise than digital type. My analog meters are industrial GE
type that has a optional circuit board which may include some filtering.
The E-Meter which is digital, requires a shield. The Link-10 wire that I
pick up from EV PARTS is a 10 wire, or 5 pair cable. Each wire has a
aluminum foil shield, and each pair is twisted about one turn per foot. The
entire wire group has a insulation covering which than has a overall woven
jacket shield. This shield is then also insulated.
The internal separated wires shields are left floating which are not
connected to any ground source.
The outer shield is grounded to the shunt end of this cable to the chassis
ground. It is best to not ground this shield at the meter end.
I ran this double shield E-meter cable in a wireway that contains the
battery pack power, 12 volt controls wires and other shielded instrument
wires.
If you are using digital amp meter coming off this shunt, than it is best to
install a double shield cable that has pre-twisted wires.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Hacker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: shielding for zilla wiring
> For the low voltage, the ideal would be get low
> voltage wiring in twisted pairs and that it would
> have a metal shield around the whole area. Only
> ground one side of the shield if you go with this
> approach so that you do not get a ground loop.
>
> Second best would be to use tightly twisted pairs
> of wire and even go with one of those ferrite cores
> near the zilla.
>
> Worst thing you can do is use really thin wire and
> have two parallel runs without any twisting of the
> pairs.
>
> Got it :-)
>
> David Brandt wrote:
>
> > I'm not able to place the contactors and shunt more than 1 ft. away
> > from the hairball as recommended in the zilla manual (though I can
> > manage 6"). I'd like to know what my options are for shielding. What
> > products and what techniques are recommended? If given an option, I'd
> > rather shield the low voltage wires close to the area, instead of the
> > power wires, but I'll shield the power wires if I have to. My main
> > concerns are the zilla data cable and the speed sensor wiring.
> >
> > Also, it's a bit early, but I'd love to have some window stickers for
> > some of the products I'm using. A green on white or green on clear
> > "powered by zilla!" with a little godzilla logo would be great!
> >
> > For my last EV, I took the GIF's of supplier's logos and had a printer
> > print them in color on sticky backed vinyl. Worked great, and added
> > some needed accents to the car. Not so much as to be ostentatious, but
> > enough to make people ask questions.
> >
> > Thanks in advance!
> >
> > David Brandt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
