EV Digest 5405
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: EMB's
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: What people want/level of expertise to get an EV started?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Electric Motorbike Energy Use
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Introduction - Where I am coming from
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Targa car, was: Re: longest range?
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Gadget's triumph, MG Midget looking for a loving home
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: AC vs DC; Newbie Question
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Bucking in first gear
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: What people want/level of expertise to get an EV started?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) MN NEV law
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Lee regulators, 0.2
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: MN NEV law
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Tour de Sol Press Release (long)
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EMB's
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Gadget's triumph
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Targa car, was: Re: longest range?
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: MN NEV law
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Look Mommy, it's the Ice Cream Car!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Lee regulators, 0.2
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: What people want/level of expertise to get an EV started?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Some problems to solve
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peekay,
What do you mean by EMB?
Electric Motor Bike?
If so, then there are quite a few people on the list with EMBs.
Someone was asking recently about what would be required for a racing
bike.
Look through the archives - there has been lots of discussion about aero
fairings, safely housing batteries in case of accident, gearbox or
direct drive, etc.
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of peekay
> Sent: Tuesday, 25 April 2006 2:19 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: EMB's
>
>
> this is a discussion list for EV's .. so i am a bit
> surprised at no discussion on EMB's at all
>
> a few posts that did come thru indicate that
> these are not suitable .. more of 'feeling' than fact
>
> what are the facts ? especially the present status
> of their development/implementation ?
>
> i'm sure that the usa govt lab guys are not silly
> enough to make 'tall claims'
>
> ..peekay
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Photos - NEW, now offering a quality print service
> from just 7p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Apr 2006 at 15:47, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Every time I've ever spoken to anyone about EV's they ask how much. I
> don't know if their expecting it to cost them ~$5 or what. I think
> they'd even balk at $500.
Look at the number of people who think of conversion only when their
gasser's engine dies. Somewhere they get the idea that they can just drop
in a motor and a few batteries, and that it just HAS to be cheaper than a
new gas engine. Their idea of conversion cost seems to be based on what they
paid for their last ICE battery and starter. Not much you can really say to
these folks ...
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
HI All,
I would like to know if anybody on the list owns or operated a converted
bike. I am looking for average figures for the energy use per mile (km),
Current draw during commute, high and lowest, what is required to cruise at
a particular speed etc...
And also what voltage people are running thei bikes at.
I have a few options.
1. Run 72 volts 18Ahr on silly little SLA for experimental purposes only.
2. Run 48 volts with some Marine Deep cycle flooded batts. Not too sure
whether the RTA would allow large flooded batteries on bikes.
3. Chop the bike in half and make the rear wheel the rear wheel of a three
wheeler car!!
I have checked out the EV album, but i want to know real life data from
people who have converted their motorbikes.
My bike weighs at the moment 180kg with the motor in there. I am planning to
use a Etek (if i can find one) direct drive and make my own controller, DC
DC convertor, charger.
Oh by the way, does anyone know when the new Etek is coming out?
Cheers
_________________________________________________________________
Like your next flight on us? Velocity NAB Credit Card
http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fadsfac%2Enet%2Flink%2Easp%3Fcc%3DNAT030%2E23080%2E0%26clk%3D1%26creativeID%3D34301&_t=754983092&_r=emailtagline&_m=EXT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Here is my starting criteria (based on what I think I know)
>
> * No need for speed 45MPH max would probably be fine
Speed is the easy part. Even low tech conversions using low power
components can hit 60-70 mph (eventually)
> * Commuting distance is 15 miles total. Jeep trails are more like
> 30-45. More is of course better.
This can be done using low cost Golf Cart batteries, 20 ea T-105s should
do it. Umm, that's quite a lot of weight in batteries though (~1300 lbs),
might cause problems if you do a lot of rock crawling.
> * Off road driving needs more low speed power and torque.
No problem, series wound traction motors (cheapest and most common) excell
at low end torque. In fact they have maximum torque at zero rpm. The
drag racers usually have problems with the motors torque breaking drive
line components.
> * Off road driving needs a stout chassis. Stronger frame and
> axles = heavier but can carry more batteries. Suziki samauri, dodge
> raider, jeep wrangler as a donor.
> * I have lots of sun here in Denver - can Solar help?
Well, if you paint the jeep flat black, solar will help your heating a bit
during the winter.
If you mean PV solar cells, not really worth the expense. A panel that is
3' x 6' will extend your range by about 1 mile for every hour of sunshine.
Assuming, of course, that you have the cells pointing directly at the
sun. If you just mount them on top so they point straight up, it might
take two hours of sun to get an extra mile of range.
> So what does everyone think? Am I crazy in thinking these needs can
> realistically be met? Does anyone know of buildups that I could use as
> a reference?
Well there are the two that you mentioned
You can also take a look through the EVDL photo album:
http://evalbum.com
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> So the race would require either a bigger battery pack, or a more
> efficient car (a body shape with less drag would be a place to start),
> faster recharging (The RC boys are recharging their small Kokam packs
> at 5C). Or some combination.
5C? Only with a death wish. Almost all LiPo packs for RC use must be
recharged at no more than 1C. Some of the newer Kokams can handle a 2C
charge rate though but these are rare and design for 2C charging.
Of course, I'm sure there are people in RC charging LiPos at 5C, based on
the rule that there are idiots in every hobby :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of ProEV
Sent: Monday, 24 April 2006 10:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Targa car, was: Re: longest range?
Hi James,
<ProEV have got around 120 miles on 70Ah I believe,>
We did not actually run the car that far but that is about what we should
have gotten. That was steady highway driving at around 60 mph (96 kph). We
used a
little less than 225 watts per mile.
However, on the track, we use around 1,000 watts per mile (1,200 without
Regen) or about 4 times steady state driving. Our average track speed is
around 75 Mph (120 kph). Top speed 120 mph (193 kph), 40 mph (64 kph) in the
chicane. Hard acceleration, hard braking and high top speed use a lot of
power.
<> I had an .... intriguing conversation with someone yesterday. It's the
time
> of year for the Targa Tasmania road-rally again (annual event)
> http://www.targa.org.au/ , a 2000km (1250 mile) or so road race, over 5
> days, each day being 200 to 550kms (125 to 350 miles).
Looking at the web site, it is a 1,307 mile (2,103 km) distance but much of
it is transition stages between full speed 'Special Stages'. The transitions
legs should be limited to legal speed limits and the Imp would probably use
around 225 watts per mile there.
Each day is broken up into a number of stages. The longest Special stage is
24 miles (38 kilometers). These are tarmac special stages, so they should be
about the same watts per mile as the race track. So for all but about two
special stages, the Electric Imp as set up now could run full power if we
got a full charge before the stage.
The longest day is 321 miles (516 kilometers) of which 90 (145 kilometers)
are special stages. So (90 * 1,000) + (231 * 225) = 141,975 Watts-hours
needed or about 7 full charges (22 kWh pack). With dump charging and
proper battery cooling, I would guess 2C recharges would not be too
difficult. Start with a full charge, Full charge during the lunch stop. End
up empty. That still means 2.5 hours of recharging along the way. Hard to be
competitive!
So the race would require either a bigger battery pack, or a more efficient
car (a body shape with less drag would be a place to start), faster
recharging (The RC boys are recharging their small Kokam packs at 5C). Or
some combination.
Let's look at using 200 amp-hr Kokams. Pack weight would be 1,020 lbs vs.
378 lbs so the car is 642 lbs heavier. But the pack would have 65 kWh
aboard.
Assuming that the car is lightened or improves efficiency to match the
Electric Imp. That means a little over 2 full charges (142 kWh / 65 kWh).
Start full, charge at lunch. The car would need a small boost charge some
time during the day.
This way would probably work. The organizers allow refueling during the
transition stages at approved gas stations, so it would not be too hard to
get a quick boost stop along one of the transition stages and a full
recharge during the lunch stop.
<Or battery swap for a
> charged pack carried in a support vehicle (since this would be a custom
> chassis, the battery swapping system can be designed in).
To make a car that can carry 600 more pounds of batteries than the Imp and
still be as efficient racing will require a pure race car designed to carry
batteries. Then it might indeed make more sense to swap out packs. Use 100
amp-hr cells would assure the car of being able to run each special stage at
full power but make the car 500 lbs lighter.
So no really new technology necessary. Race chassis (preferable AWD for max
regen) designed for battery swaps. Three Kokam 100 amp-hr 325 volt nominal
packs (with integrated BMS). A truck to carry the two spare packs. The truck
either needs to have a generator and charger aboard or the course has to be
scouted and packs propositioned, then charged and repositioned during the
day.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Gadget an' EVerybody;
Nice report! BOY you are a glutton for punishment! Dealing with ANY
English car on the Colonies shores must be a challange!? I mean for parts,
hell, VW Rabbits are scarce enough, nowadaze!And with you playing musical
chassis and body? Going direct drive with a decent rear end shure would be
nice. It's amazing how noisy trannies can be WITHout the hulking gas engine
to mask out the grear noise from gears cut with a stone ax!
For othere with a hankerin' for a British Car. Jack Gretta's MG Midget is
still looking fior a home. Price cut to 8 grand, or a close offer. It has a
8 inch ADV motor a Rapter controller, retains the gearbox with out the
clutch, sigh! But the body is perfect considering that it is a 74, I think,,
is pristine , clean white with a red hardtop. Charger is a home Brew,
voltage? He played around with 72 to 78. This is pretty much a throw switch
operation, no key<g>! Car is cute as hell, but for me,6'5" , forgetabout it!
It isn't called a MIDGET for nothing.It is built for them!Total weight of
car, about 2400 lbs, so it isn't a Led Sled.
Seeya
Bob
If interested, I xcan hook ya up with the right folks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:11 AM
Subject: Gadget's triumph
> This car seems like it has taken forever to get on the
> road. All the things that I thought had made the car
> special made it a real pain...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OMIGOD! I'd completely forgotten about this...A mind is a terrible
thing to waste (or was that a wasted mind is a terrible thing?)...
Large and overly obsequious thankx...
Wayne
At 10:00 PM 4/23/2006, you wrote:
At 07:06 PM 4/21/2006, you wrote:
Anyhoo...The Probe is a pretty heavy vehicle weighing in at just
under 2700 lbs (add 800+ and we're easily pushing 3500#). What's
it gonna take to get this beast moving? I had hoped to convert a
GEO Metro or Ford Festivia (or something of similar ilk) going up
to 96, maybe 120 v (DC), regen. Basically a small 40 to 50 mile
around-towner. However, the offer of the "free" donor may be an
offer too good to turn down. The only problem with the Probe of
which I'm aware is that it needs a tranny...Surely a 4 or 5 speed
manual can't be THAT prohibitively expensive...Or can it?
More than you ever wanted to know about converting a Ford Probe:
http://www.evconvert.com/eve/
Probably the most comprehensive documentation of a conversion I have
seen on the Net.
And, of course, a list member.
If those of us who "can", "do" then those of us who "can't" won't
suffer as much from the high prices of excess.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found that my problem was also related to the potbox mounting. In
my case, the potbox is mounted to a plastic plate that covers an opening
between the Zilla and one of the battery boxes. The plate is held down
with two velcro strips on one end, but the other end was floating, which
I thought would be OK since the throtthe cable attachment was also on the
plpate. Just for grins I zip tied the floating end to a nearyby battery
cable and the bucking/lurching is almost gone... Looks like I need to
find a more solid mounting point for the potbox.
Ralph
David Brandt writes:
>
> I, too had a bucking problem with the solar electric escort I had for a
> while. Before I rebuilt it, the potbox was mounted to a large plate
> that also held the controller and contactor. Trouble was, the plate
> was mounted to the top of the transmission on the drivers side, and the
> passenger side engine mount. When you acellerated, the torque would
> move the motor/tranny and everything that was attached, including the
> potbox!
>
> So even if you held your foot still, the throttle would oscillate back
> and forth. This was especially exciting in reverse!
>
> The first thing I did when rebuilding it was to put the potbox on the
> firewall. No more problems with oscillation or bucking.
>
> David Brandt
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I haven't gottenit into the album yet. not quite ready i guess.
It is a 1987 300zx , 24orbitals, zilla1k-HV, and a warp9 into the stock
tranny.
1 more orbital is used for the aux battery with a vicor module to keep
it chaged.
Charged with a PFC20 and using rudman regs.
weight, dunno but i am guessing 3500
car weighed 300 before conversion but motor was 460 lbs and i added
1000# of lead.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Minnesota Senate and House of Representatives have approved and sent
bill HF1838 to Governor Tim Pawlenty for signing into law. HF1838 was
written at the behest of "E-Ride", a Princeton MN manufacturer of
Neighborhood Electric Vehicles. It allows local governments to permit
electric vehicles on neighborhood streets where the speed limit is less
than 35 mph.
Sec. 2. Minnesota Statutes 2004, section 168.011, subd 9 says:
The department shall not issue a title for a neighborhood electric
vehicle (1) that lacks a vehicle identification number, and (2) for
which a manufacturer's certificate of origin clearly labeling the
vehicle as a neighborhood electric vehicle or similar designation
has not been issued. The department shall not issue a vehicle
identification number to a homemade neighborhood electric or
low-speed vehicle or retrofitted golf cart, and such vehicles do
not qualify as neighborhood electric vehicles.
Sec. 4. Minnesota Statutes 2004, section 169.01, Subd. 91.
"Neighborhood electric vehicle" means an electrically powered motor
vehicle that has four wheels, and has a speed attainable in one
mile of at least 20 miles per hour but not more than 25 miles per
hour on a paved level surface.
It's a step forward, I guess, because present MN law does not recognize
NEVs at all. However, I question the wisdom of banning homemade NEVs,
since there *are* no commercial NEVs being sold in the state!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
>
> Does the epoxy prevent the easy replacment of the light bulb?
Yes, but it's a 50 cent part. When I blow the bulb, I cut the wires,
solder in a new light bulb and resistor, put a new piece of heat shrink
over it, and pour in new glue.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Write your Governor and urge him to veto that bill unless the homebuilt clause
is removed!! CC your local elected officials.
Stay Charged!
Hump
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 9:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: MN NEV law
The Minnesota Senate and House of Representatives have approved and sent
bill HF1838 to Governor Tim Pawlenty for signing into law. HF1838 was
written at the behest of "E-Ride", a Princeton MN manufacturer of
Neighborhood Electric Vehicles. It allows local governments to permit
electric vehicles on neighborhood streets where the speed limit is less than
35 mph.
Sec. 2. Minnesota Statutes 2004, section 168.011, subd 9 says:
The department shall not issue a title for a neighborhood electric
vehicle (1) that lacks a vehicle identification number, and (2) for
which a manufacturer's certificate of origin clearly labeling the
vehicle as a neighborhood electric vehicle or similar designation
has not been issued. The department shall not issue a vehicle
identification number to a homemade neighborhood electric or
low-speed vehicle or retrofitted golf cart, and such vehicles do
not qualify as neighborhood electric vehicles.
Sec. 4. Minnesota Statutes 2004, section 169.01, Subd. 91.
"Neighborhood electric vehicle" means an electrically powered motor
vehicle that has four wheels, and has a speed attainable in one
mile of at least 20 miles per hour but not more than 25 miles per
hour on a paved level surface.
It's a step forward, I guess, because present MN law does not recognize NEVs
at all. However, I question the wisdom of banning homemade NEVs, since there
*are* no commercial NEVs being sold in the state!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> i cannot find any links to see the 'indian' hybrid
>
> anyone knows ?
>
> is the DCE team/guys watching this list ?
> the www.dce.org link speaks nothing of this nice project
>
>
> ..peekay
That should be www.dce.edu not *.org
--
Mike Bianchi
Foveal Systems
973 822-2085 call to arrange Fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com
http://www.FovealMounts.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fact: Motorcycles take a lot of hp to run high speed. That's why they
aren't used much. However look in the ev photo album
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/ You'll get a lot of ideas in both the
Motorcycle section and the bicycle & scooter sections. The big secret is if
you use a full fairing you can get a sport bike down to drawing 3 hp at
60mph & a recumbent down to 2 hp. What makes them suitable is to use a
fairing. A full one. If you look in the archieves you'll plenty of
discussion. Also look on the Zappy list. That's all they do. There is
also the Voltage forum. LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 9:19 PM
Subject: EMB's
this is a discussion list for EV's .. so i am a bit
surprised at no discussion on EMB's at all
a few posts that did come thru indicate that
these are not suitable .. more of 'feeling' than fact
what are the facts ? especially the present status
of their development/implementation ?
i'm sure that the usa govt lab guys are not silly
enough to make 'tall claims'
..peekay
___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Photos - NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 7p a
photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neat idea for regen. I'm assuming it freewheels nicely while waiting for
commands. How did it work as a brake? LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 10:11 PM
Subject: Gadget's triumph
This car seems like it has taken forever to get on the
road. All the things that I thought had made the car
special made it a real pain... The car started as a
Triumph Spitfire. I spotted a beautiful GT6 through
the fence at a local tow yard for cheap. So I put the
body of the GT6 on the Spitfire Chassis with the GT6
suspension and running gear. Added the doors and hood
from the spitfire and ended up with a very handsome
car. The problem came, when I found out that the GT6
running gear with the lovely oversized brakes, was
only produced for less than 6 months before being
discontinued. WWWELLLLLL I finally got the parts I
needed, and the car is on the road.
A Z1K and an ADC 6.7 are really fun on this little
car. but I think I will use the 6.7 for another
project and opt for a Warp9 with no transmission. The
car is really fun to drive but that little english
transmission with the straight cut gears is really
noisy. With direct drive it would be so quiet. The 6.7
with a Z1K would be great in a motorcycle.
The batteries have been sitting around for a while,
and were really out of balance. I had put them in the
car with rudman mk2b's with the regbuss and had done a
charge on them. they really didn't want balance out.
But I have driven the car three time's in two days. It
is in it's fourth charge cycle and are almost totally
balanced out.
I started out driving the car with the zilla limited
to 500 motor amps for the break in. I have raised the
motor amps to 1000 and have noticed a burning
smell.... It's the poor little clutch! Another reason
to lose the transmission!
I rewired the car yesterday and there are no longer
any signs of Lucas electricals. Now all it needs is
some new rubber and it should rattle a lot less.
Gadget
visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com, gadgetsworld.org,
leftcoastconversions.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
I wrote:
<(The RC boys are recharging their small Kokam packs at 5C)>
I was typing fast and that came out a little strong. Kokam does all their
cycle life tests at 1C and that is what they recommend. What I have heard is
that some R/C guys have been experimented with 5C charging and it had been
working for them.
5C? Only with a death wish. Almost all LiPo packs for RC use must be
recharged at no more than 1C. Some of the newer Kokams can handle a 2C
charge rate though but these are rare and design for 2C charging.
Kokam used to have a nice graph up that showed why 5C charging often gets
people in trouble. All I can find now is the 3C graph:
http://kokamamerica.com/technology.htm (last graph on the page).
The thing that catches people out is the voltage climbs very quickly and
often at a different rate for each cell. Unless each cell's voltage is
closely and carefully watched, some cells will see too high a voltage and
will be damaged. Repeated fast charges without extra cooling can cause heat
damage as well.
Of course, I'm sure there are people in RC charging LiPos at 5C, based on
the rule that there are idiots in every hobby :-)
Just because people do it wrong and it does not work, does not mean it can
not be done<G>.
To quote the Kokam website (because I love the phrase 'RC mania' <G>)(
http://www.kokam.com/english/biz/rc.html ):
<Many of RC mania have tried to reduce their charging time but they do not
clearly know about effective method.>
From ProEV's experiences regenning 300 amps into 70 amp-hr Kokam cells, I
think fast recharging in the 2-5 C range is possible but:
1) The user needs to monitor each cell's voltage in 'near' real time with
instant cutbacks that reduces charging rate to keep any cell from seeing too
high a voltage.
2) The user needs to monitor each cell's temperature and keep them cool.
3) The user needs to understand that, for example, a 5C rate will not mean
you can charge a cell in 1/5 the time. Less CC time, more CV time means
quicker charging but not that much quicker.
4) The user needs to understand that a 90% charge might give a better
balance of faster charge time to run time.
5) The user needs to accept that there might still be cycle life costs.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Humphrey wrote:
> Write your Governor and urge him to veto that bill unless the
> homebuilt clause is removed!! CC your local elected officials.
I did (for all the good it will do). We have the best government money
can buy.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
I know what you're all saying about now, Wayland's up to more weird
stuff again. What's up with this goofy title? Read on.
I had written:
Sunday is White Zombie time, and as I type this, Tim Brehm is on his
way here. The new pack of Aerobatteries are being installed today, but
this time there'll be 30 of them, not the regular 29....this is racing
and if we can push something a bit to go quicker and faster, than so
be it. I've also got the master's OK on my 360V plan, so it's not as
if he doesn't know what I'm up to :-)
The battery change-out went very smoothly. Of course, with the image of
plasma balls still very clear in my mind, when ever either adding or
removing the stubby thick copper bus bars between the terminals of
numerous powerful Hawkers, extreme care and diligent work are a must.
About the 'need' to replace the previous 348V stack of Hawkers, came
this second request from my friend Myles Twete:
If Hawkers can "routinely" dish out 800+ amps without harm, why did you need a new
set in less than a year >of drag racing? I know I asked this before and maybe I missed the
answer, but your claim does beg the >question.
When we race our EVs and have a battery company sponsoring the batteries
to us, they want us to push them to the limits. We get to push the
envelope and hopefully set a few records, they get real world R & D and
get to see how far their products can be stressed. It's a win -win
deal. What I have talked about in the past about, is the ability of the
tough Hawkers to take a full year of racing punishment with no battery
failures. This is a fact, none of the Hawker Aerobatteries failed, ever.
Other batteries I've used have blown up, melted, reversed cells, etc.
Remember Woodburn '04? I tried the imported made-in-China 29 lb. 35 ahr
12V UPS style batteries under the Exide name (because I could not get
Hawkers at the time) in White Zombie. About 100 ft. after launch with a
900 amp current draw, two batteries blew up. I swapped out the two blown
batteries with fresh ones, then turned the current limit down to a
dismal 500 amps, and promptly blew a third battery up right at the start
line. Clearly, these batteries even at more weight and 9 more ahrs of
capacity, were not close to being as robust as were Hawkers. I've also
blown up Optimas under the duress of drag racing. To be fair, I later
went with the made-in-America Exide Orbitals and as many will remember,
had fantastic reliability and awesome power delivery, though these 'are'
40 lb. larger sized batteries. Hawkers too, can be destroyed, but my
point is, that they can be pushed more to the extremes, pound for pound,
than any other lead acid battery I've ever used...period!
I wouldn't dispute that Hawkers are the cats meow, but I gotta know---did high
currents and heat kill >those Hawkers or did lack of batt regs do it, or what?
Again, neither high current or high heat killed any of the 29
Aerobatteries used in White Zombie. Now, any time you heat lead acid
batteries to 120-130 degrees while racing, and at the same time, you
suck 1100 amps from these small 24 lb. batteries, it certainly isn't
'good' for them. After a racing season is over and the batteries are
allowed to sit idle after repeated cookings at the track, they do loose
capacity...they aren't the same as brand new anymore. That said, the
Hawker AeroBatteries delivered as promised. In fact, with their 5 second
rating at 925 amps, I'd say that at 1000 amps most of the way down the
track for 12 seconds, they exceeded our expectations. The majority of
the 29 batteries are still rock'n a year later after all those HARD runs
and high temp racing nights where we got the batteries soooo hot,
touching the rear seat area aluminum tray would almost burn one's hand.
We 'did' super heat the pack on the last night where we tried to bust
into the 11s. After the last run of the night, when Tim returned from
the track to the pits, the Lexan cover over the rear seat area pack was
fogged, so we managed to gas some of the batteries. Many months later in
my story 'The Names have been Changed to Protect the Innocent' (posted
at the Plasma Boy web site under 'Wayland's Words', I mentioned how a
few of the batteries seemed to be out of equalization compared to the
rest. A few weeks ago, Tim and I pried off the lid on one of the lazy
batteries and found pooled electrolyte in the battery top that had
collected after the gassing incident last year, which explains why a few
batteries were lagging behind all the rest of them. It was more than
likely the extreme temperatures we took the batteries to, more than the
bump up from 1000 to 1100 battery amps that caused this. I have spares
that could be dropped in to replace any weak batteries to restore the
pack to near new status, but with a brand new pack of batteries on hand,
it just made sense to use them instead. All of the batteries that were
in the trunk location are still perfect and read 12.97V + or - a few
hundredths after a refresh charge, most likely due to how they stayed a
bit cooler with their compartment floor exposed to 100+ mph cooling air.
All but a few in the rear seat compartment read the same 12.97V + or - a
few hundredths after a refresh charge, so except for the few that we
pushed a little too hard, the batteries are still in excellent shape.
These batteries will go on to power up other projects.
From Myles' 1st email:
Is it typical for racers to replace their batteries annually....
Let's see.... is it typical? No. Usually, getting sponsorship for racing
batteries is very difficult. The norm is, that once you do get a
sponsored pack, the batteries have to last for several years. This time
around, with the car performing up to and past expectations, and
especially with Dick Brown's help (AeroBatteries), Hawker has been 100%
behind our efforts of pushing the performance envelope with their
batteries. After doing exactly as we said we'd do...set a new world
record 'in the 12s', they were more than pleased. This year we're
looking towards the 11's, and realizing how important it is to have a
strong pack to achieve an ET in the 11's, I requested a fresh pack for
the 2006 season. I'm very grateful Hawker has once again, stepped up for us.
OK, back to Sunday's battery removal -installation. We had to find a
spot for the 30th battery. Unfortunately, the rear seat area and trunk
area battery enclosures had not a bit of extra space for the 30th
battery. I decided to place this battery in-between the two packs and
mounted it in its own aluminum tray piggy-backing it to the aluminum
support bracket just behind the rear seat bulkhead. Though not as tidy
as having it fit inside one of the trays with the rest of the batteries,
it does look 'interesting' and it offers a full view of what these
batteries look like. We topped off the new 360V pack with .5 amp charge,
and 5 minutes after the charger was shut down, the pack rested at, get
this, 406 volts! Driving the car up and out the shop driveway skimmed
away the surface charge and the pack rested at 391 volts. Tim and I took
a sedate 5-6 mile cruise, which include a 2 mile ~4% grade to negotiate
and were amazed to see the pack not falling below 365 volts or so under
the load. 40-45 mph cruising had the battery current draw so low that
the 1500 amp analog Simpson meter's (with its 20 amps increments) needle
barely moved. I estimate the average current was between 10 and 15 amps.
After the short drive, we returned to recharge the pack.
About a half hour later, there was still good light in the late
afternoon-early evening for taking a few digital photos, so we drove the
car over to the neighborhood park for a little photo shoot thing. Tim
got a little nervous when I directed him to drive up and into the park
using the paved walking paths clearly marked 'No Motor Vehicles
Allowed'. It was OK, I've done this before with Blue Meanie and had
gotten away with it. The Datsun 1200 is small enough, it can drive on
the paved walkways to where the tires stay on pavement all the time. I
do respect those at the park using the walkways, and if I find folks
near us, I ask if it would bother them, of course, taking the
opportunity to point out the car is electric powered and won't offend
them with noxious fumes and all. As in previous park car stuff, everyone
I talked with seemed thrilled that we had brought an electric car. On
this warm night, there were quite a few people enjoying the park. As Tim
and I slowly and carefully glided White Zombie past young families with
their small children playing on swing sets and past couples walking
their dogs, we got quite few smiles and slightly surprised looks, but
the best one came from a little kid, maybe five years old. As the white
car with all the colorful stickers rolled past, she said "Look mommy,
it's the ice cream car!"
See Ya......John Wayland
Less than 3 weeks until the High Voltage Nationals!
Note: Photos of the new battery pack are up at the web page in the White
Zombie section under 'More Voltage'
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
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Since the zeners taper on, would it be effective to just use a
resistor with an led across it? The led would just be for a visual
indicator. It's not constant current, but it's less likely to have a
bulb element fail in a location that's hard to access.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> >
> > Does the epoxy prevent the easy replacment of the light bulb?
>
> Yes, but it's a 50 cent part. When I blow the bulb, I cut the wires,
> solder in a new light bulb and resistor, put a new piece of heat shrink
> over it, and pour in new glue.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
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I have been driving a EV for 30 years, and have not once been ask how much
it cost. I think it would be like how much you make.
Ninety nine percent of the time, its how far can you go, how long does it
take to charge and how fast.
It may be the places I go. At a Café I go every day, I park between a lot
of monster trucks, that people and friends of my drive. Many of them are
retire, and get at new truck every 2 years, even if they don't have to.
They don't even haul anything. Even the waitress has a high off the ground
4 wheel drive 5 passenger pickup.
If a person ever ask me how much it cost, I am ready to tell them, how much
does your vehicles cost over the last 30 years. My cost of my EV over that
time, does not even come close to the cost of there vehicles over that
amount of time.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 2:46 AM
Subject: Re: What people want/level of expertise to get an EV started?
> On 24 Apr 2006 at 15:47, Ryan Stotts wrote:
>
> > Every time I've ever spoken to anyone about EV's they ask how much. I
> > don't know if their expecting it to cost them ~$5 or what. I think
> > they'd even balk at $500.
>
> Look at the number of people who think of conversion only when their
> gasser's engine dies. Somewhere they get the idea that they can just drop
> in a motor and a few batteries, and that it just HAS to be cheaper than a
> new gas engine. Their idea of conversion cost seems to be based on what
> they
> paid for their last ICE battery and starter. Not much you can really say
> to
> these folks ...
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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Rich Rudman wrote:
> Ok Lee...
> I am not going to give a complete reply.. here I have a hungry EV and
> a stack of MK3 Regs to errr... modify for today, and I have been sick
> on my back for two days...
Ouch! Sorry to hear about that. Make some time to rest up and recover.
> Regs alone are not the complete answer, nor is a highly flexible
> data collection system.
No; there are a whole progression of answers, depending on how exacting
your questions are.
If you don't want to murder your batteries today, a cheap simple system
is good enough. Just a voltmeter so you can stop driving before you pull
them too low, and a timer to shut off your charger before it boils the
batteries to death.
If you don't want to murder them this year, you need something a little
better. An E-meter so you have some idea how much charge is left, and a
charger that follows some reasonable charging algorithm will do it.
If you want the batteries to last several years, they'll need some
individual care; balancing, equalizing, etc. This is where these simple
regulators fit in. They allow you to put slightly different amounts of
charge into each battery, to compensate for the growing differences
between them as they age. And, you need a smarter charger, since battery
characteristics change with depth of discharge, temperature, age, etc.
If you want your batteries to last as long as possible, you need even
more elaborate measurement and control systems. That's where something
like my Battery Balancer comes in.
> Together you have a system that will prevent any over charge
> conditions anywhere on the entire string. This is the primary
> method that AGMs get Gassed and Vented from. Keep them all from
> gassing. Then keep the current flowing long enough for the weak
> to fill.
Your theory is good; but this isn't quite what your regulators and
charger are doing in practice.
The gassing threshold is 2.37v/cell, or 14.22v per 12v battery. Your
regulators are going well above this. So they gas the batteries.
There is room for some gas inside the battery, and an AGM can (slowly)
recombine gas back into water. So, if you limit the current and time
(i.e. amphours) you put in when over 14.22v, it won't vent.
But, your charging system does *not* control the actual current or time
that each battery sees over 14.22v. It *limits* the current (by
bypassing some of the charging current around the battery). And the
charger *limit* the total charging time, but *not* the time any one
battery spends over the gassing threshold.
> accurate current control on every battery is not needed.
Well, that depends on your goals (see above). It's not "needed" if you
don't want to maximize battery life.
> The act of hunting for a voltage point will vary the current and time
> at that current all over the map. By putting a lid on volts you
> control the current. You get to the same place.
Not quite. You can control current by controlling voltage. But you are
simply clamping the voltage, irrespective of what it does to current.
> Yes the key is actual measurment... This is one of the reasons for
> doing the MK3 project, is to build a system that enables folks to
> see what really is happening in the pack.
>
> The hard part will be sorting through the data and then doing
> something about it. That's gonna take some code.
Exactly!
I'm suggesting that what you may find is that simply regulating voltages
does not really control the amount of overcharge very well.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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