EV Digest 5406
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Allbright ED250B Template needed
by mreish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Tiniest Digital Panel Voltmeter?
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: What people want/level of expertise to get an EV started?
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Lee regulators, 0.2
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Lee regulators, 0.2
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: How much battery capacity would this require?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Tiniest Digital Panel Voltmeter?
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Tiniest Digital Panel Voltmeter?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Automatic, Manual, or CVT?
by "Jacob Portukalian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Tiniest Digital Panel Voltmeter?
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: MN NEV law
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: What people want/level of expertise to get an EV started?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Automatic, Manual, or CVT?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Introduction - Where I am coming from
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Lee regulators, 0.2
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Introduction - Where I am coming from
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet someone is happy.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: MN NEV law
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Lee regulators, 0.2
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EMB's .. Electro Mechanical Batteries
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Automatic, Manual, or CVT?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Lee regulators, 0.2
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: NiCd bus on eBay
by William Brinsmead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Introduction - Where I am coming from
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Lee regulators, 0.2
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet someone is happy.
by Tom Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Look Mommy, it's the Ice Cream Car!
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello All,
I'm building a new dash and need the mounting template that came with
the Allbright ED250B battery disconnect. I misplaced mine and the
idea of guessing isn't high on my list.
Can someone scan theirs or shoot me the numbers?
Thankya, thankyaverymuch.
--
The Electric Motorcycle Portal
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/
Electric Motorcycle Listserv
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/listserv
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd like a resolution of 0.1v.
Here is one on ebay. It is nice and compact yet should be easily readable.
Eleven or twelve of these (1 per battery) would fit easily over the lower
center console forward of the transmission shift lever.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7609330553&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_ReBay_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT
Anyone have a link to a similar product here in U.S.?
The meters require a 5 volt power supply. I'd like to think I could easily
buy a 12Vdc to 5Vdc power supply, use adapter to cigarette lighter, run all the
meters from it, and thus easily unplug them when not in use.
Anyone have a link to a suitable power supply?
The meters can be installed in any panel with a thickness of 0.5mm - 3.0 mm.
Where would a suitable panel be found?
Mark
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mark Freidberg wrote:
>
> Seeking one suitable for 12 volt battery monitoring. Anyone have a link to
> the tiniest?
How accurate? Small implies hard to read.
A single LED is about as small as you can get. You can wire it to change
color or brightness to indicate voltage.
There are tiny analog meters as small as 1/2" square. They would be hard
to read accurately, but easy to spot the relative voltage between a row
of them.
Beyond that, you could build something with a single LED or LCD graphic
display, with circuitry to display a bargraph for each battery and
perhaps the highest or lowest voltage in a larger format.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
---------------------------------
Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min
with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench writes:
>
> I have been driving a EV for 30 years, and have not once been ask how much
> it cost. I think it would be like how much you make.
I had my Geo Prizm at a local Earth Day event Saturday, and talked to about
20 people. Almost every one of them asked how much the conversion cost.
I think this is a valid question for someone considering doing a conversion.
Not many people are able to buy something obviously expensive without regard
to cost.
> Ninety nine percent of the time, its how far can you go, how long does it
> take to charge and how fast.
In addition to these questions, a lot of people asked how it was recharged.
Many people were truely surprised to learn that my car could recharge from
a standard wall outlet.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> Since the zeners taper on, would it be effective to just use a
> resistor with an led across it? The led would just be for a visual
> indicator. It's not constant current, but it's less likely to have a
> bulb element fail in a location that's hard to access.
You could, but it wouldn't work as well. You'd need to use a power
resistor (3v x 0.5a = 1.5 watts, so a 3w resistor). Without the lamp's
current limiting, it won't clamp as well (draws less current at lower
voltages), and you could overheat the zeners and resistors if the
voltage got too high. You'd need a fuse, or fuse resistor. The LED would
need its own series resistor. The LED wouldn't produce as much light,
unless you used a very expensive one.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok. How has the bulb reliability been?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> > Since the zeners taper on, would it be effective to just use a
> > resistor with an led across it? The led would just be for a visual
> > indicator. It's not constant current, but it's less likely to have a
> > bulb element fail in a location that's hard to access.
>
> You could, but it wouldn't work as well. You'd need to use a power
> resistor (3v x 0.5a = 1.5 watts, so a 3w resistor). Without the lamp's
> current limiting, it won't clamp as well (draws less current at lower
> voltages), and you could overheat the zeners and resistors if the
> voltage got too high. You'd need a fuse, or fuse resistor. The LED would
> need its own series resistor. The LED wouldn't produce as much light,
> unless you used a very expensive one.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is an 85V 100Ah pack going to cut it? Is that large a pack massive
overkill, or just scraping by?
One real world datapoint. On my non faired motorcycle when I had a 48V
100ah pack of flooded Nicads I could ride about 30 miles at 50 mph. Total
weight of the motorcycle including rider was probably in the 700 - 800 lb
range. I don't think 85v at 100ahr will be enough at the speeds you are
talking about. Of course there is a big difference between 60 and 80 mph.
Even with a lithium chemistry I think you are bumping up against the limits
of what can currently be done. Even though lithium batteries are lighter
than my NiCads, they still take up a certain amount of space. I think you
will run out of space to mount the batteries before you have enough on board
to achieve your goals. If you do get it all working, that will be one sweet
EV :-)
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Look carefully into the vendors datasheet. Many of those displays need
an isolated power supply.
Bringing all of those wires into the cabin of the vehicle is a serious
high voltage hazard.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'd like a resolution of 0.1v.
>
>
> Here is one on ebay. It is nice and compact yet should be easily
readable. Eleven or twelve of these (1 per battery) would fit easily
over the lower center console forward of the transmission shift lever.
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7609330553&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_ReBay_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT
>
> Anyone have a link to a similar product here in U.S.?
>
> The meters require a 5 volt power supply. I'd like to think I
could easily buy a 12Vdc to 5Vdc power supply, use adapter to
cigarette lighter, run all the meters from it, and thus easily unplug
them when not in use.
>
> Anyone have a link to a suitable power supply?
>
> The meters can be installed in any panel with a thickness of 0.5mm
- 3.0 mm. Where would a suitable panel be found?
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mark Freidberg wrote:
> >
> > Seeking one suitable for 12 volt battery monitoring. Anyone have a
link to the tiniest?
>
> How accurate? Small implies hard to read.
>
> A single LED is about as small as you can get. You can wire it to change
> color or brightness to indicate voltage.
>
> There are tiny analog meters as small as 1/2" square. They would be hard
> to read accurately, but easy to spot the relative voltage between a row
> of them.
>
> Beyond that, you could build something with a single LED or LCD graphic
> display, with circuitry to display a bargraph for each battery and
> perhaps the highest or lowest voltage in a larger format.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for
just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Freidberg wrote:
> I'd like a resolution of 0.1v.
Ok. Recognize that a 0.1v change in a 12v battery represents about a 10%
change in state of charge.
> Here is one on ebay. It is nice and compact yet should be easily
> readable.
I don't see any dimensions. Assuming those are 0.5" high digits, it's
about 1" high and 2" wide. That's not particularly small.
> Anyone have a link to a similar product here in U.S.?
Datel has a line of similar meters; see
<http://www.cd4power.com/data/meters/dpm_pdb1.pdf>
Their smallest are 1.38"w x 0.88"h; that's a 3.5 digit (19.99 format).
> The meters require a 5 volt power supply. I'd like to think I could
> easily buy a 12Vdc to 5Vdc power supply, use adapter to cigarette
> lighter, run all the meters from it
That won't work. All meters of this type have no isolation between their
power supply and the voltage they are measuring. You would have to power
each meter from the battery it is monitoring.
Worse, many of these meters (the cheap ones), cannot measure their own
power supply voltage; the negative of their power supply is NOT the
negative of the voltage they are measuring.
A final challenge is that LEDs are fairly power-hungry. The LED meters
will probably draw 20-30ma, which will drain a 12v battery over a period
of weeks if you don't get around to charging them. The versions with LCD
displays can avoid this, and also are readable in direct sunlight (LEDs
are not).
> Anyone have a link to a suitable power supply?
It would be best to use the battery voltage itself.
> The meters can be installed in any panel with a thickness of
> 0.5mm - 3.0 mm. Where would a suitable panel be found?
I think you would have to make it yourself.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am planning a conversion and was wanting some input on the transmission.
Automatic, Manual, CVT, or none?
Looking for pros, cons, tips, tricks, caveats, and any other type of
feedback from people that have actually used them.
Thanks,
~Jacob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Mark Freidberg wrote:
I'd like a resolution of 0.1v.
Ok. Recognize that a 0.1v change in a 12v battery represents about a 10%
change in state of charge.
That is true at rest, but if you're building a meter that will be online
when the car/whatever is running the key is to keep all the meters
roughly in sync.
I would think that what really matters is the difference between
batteries, especially under load. If all of them are at 12 volts at full
power and one is down at 11.5, that would be very interesting.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
The Minnesota Senate and House of Representatives have approved and sent
bill HF1838 to Governor Tim Pawlenty for signing into law. HF1838 was
written at the behest of "E-Ride", a Princeton MN manufacturer of
Neighborhood Electric Vehicles. It allows local governments to permit
electric vehicles on neighborhood streets where the speed limit is less
than 35 mph.
Sec. 2. Minnesota Statutes 2004, section 168.011, subd 9 says:
The department shall not issue a title for a neighborhood electric
vehicle (1) that lacks a vehicle identification number, and (2) for
which a manufacturer's certificate of origin clearly labeling the
vehicle as a neighborhood electric vehicle or similar designation
has not been issued. The department shall not issue a vehicle
identification number to a homemade neighborhood electric or
low-speed vehicle or retrofitted golf cart, and such vehicles do
not qualify as neighborhood electric vehicles.
Sec. 4. Minnesota Statutes 2004, section 169.01, Subd. 91.
"Neighborhood electric vehicle" means an electrically powered motor
vehicle that has four wheels, and has a speed attainable in one
mile of at least 20 miles per hour but not more than 25 miles per
hour on a paved level surface.
It's a step forward, I guess, because present MN law does not recognize
NEVs at all. However, I question the wisdom of banning homemade NEVs,
since there *are* no commercial NEVs being sold in the state!
What's their definition of "commercial" vs "home made"? Usually state
law defines all of the terms used in the law. What's to stop you from
being a manufacturer? Get a biz license, make up a VIN, and designate
it an NEV.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: What people want/level of expertise to get an EV started?
> Roland Wiench writes:
> >
> > I have been driving a EV for 30 years, and have not once been ask how
> > much
> > it cost. I think it would be like how much you make.
>
> I had my Geo Prizm at a local Earth Day event Saturday, and talked to
> about
> 20 people. Almost every one of them asked how much the conversion cost.
> I think this is a valid question for someone considering doing a
> conversion.
> Not many people are able to buy something obviously expensive without
> regard
> to cost.
>
>
> > Ninety nine percent of the time, its how far can you go, how long does
> > it
> > take to charge and how fast.
I now can make that 98.9 percent. I just got down talking to a Xantrex
technician, and he ask me how much the EV cost. I ask him how much did it
cost for all your vehicles for the last 30 years. He said about 1/4
million. I said my EV with all the up grades, modifications, battery
changes and charging cost, for the last 30 years is about 1/3 of that
amount.
I have notice a technical type of person will ask about the source of supply
for the components which is related to cost. Roland
>
> In addition to these questions, a lot of people asked how it was
> recharged.
> Many people were truely surprised to learn that my car could recharge from
> a standard wall outlet.
>
> Ralph
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The short answer:
Manual or Single Ratio. "None" implies no transmission (gear reduction)
at all (direct connect), which is really unlikely.
Slightly longer answer:
* Single Ratio: Most efficient (maybe -- a manual would probably be more
efficient), no clutch in case of full-speed runaway (arguable it it's a
problem depending on other system components) Need enough amps to drive
this setup. Lightest weight, least maintenance.
* Manual: Has a clutch and gears, probably the best option for a
conversion. Adapter plates readily available for popular conversion
targets.
* Automatic: Less efficient than SR / Manual, making it shift correctly
will be rather "involved". Not a lot of "prior art" to build off of.
* CVT: Less efficient than SR / Manual (?), questionable torque
capacity, Interfacing would be an exercise for the implementer.
Jacob Portukalian wrote:
I am planning a conversion and was wanting some input on the transmission.
Automatic, Manual, CVT, or none?
Looking for pros, cons, tips, tricks, caveats, and any other type of
feedback from people that have actually used them.
Thanks,
~Jacob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave,
Dave Hanna wrote:
I'd like to explore the possibility of creating an EV 4x4 that allows
me to have fun on Jeep trails and something that I can commute in.
I have read about the 'LectricRover' and the 'JeepEV' and both seem
like cool projects. I guess the question is where should I start?
So what does everyone think? Am I crazy in thinking these needs can
realistically be met? Does anyone know of buildups that I could use
as a reference?
I think you're already off to a great start by asking the questions
you've asked on the EVDL. The biggest frustrations I experienced with my
JeepEV project were due to getting (questionable) advice from a single
source as well as not being aware of the EVDL or the Electric Auto
Association for the first several months of the build.
I don't think you're expectations sound unreasonable... and I think it
is very do-able. Just realize that an un-aerodynamic 4x4 is in general
going to be more expensive to convert then a typical EV.
I got negative feedback throughout my conversion for picking such an
inefficient vehicle as a Cherokee for an EV conversion. But I did it
because it hadn't been done before, and I wanted to make it work.
Perhaps the results aren't as good as some EVs, but the JeepEV fits my
needs well, and is a vehicle I really like; and That's all that matters!
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> This can be done using low cost Golf Cart batteries, 20 ea T-105s
> should do it. Umm, that's quite a lot of weight in batteries though
> (~1300 lbs), might cause problems if you do a lot of rock crawling.
Maybe it's just me, but I think that using flooded batteries in an EV
built for off-road use is a very bad idea. I'd be very concerned about
bouncing around and/or extreme angles with batteries where the
electrolyte can leak out; or move to one side of the battery,
potentially exposing some parts of the plates during operation.
Although more expensive, I think sealed AGM batteries would be better
suited for this application. Plus if you're vehicle pulls a lot of power
and thus discharges the batteries at a high rate (like mine does); you
might be better off with AGMs anyways from a range and life standpoint...
Hope that helps,
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> Ok. How has the bulb reliability been?
None have failed from normal use. I've only burned them out from
connecting a regulator backwards, or physically breaking the bulb from
dropping something on it.
Under normal circumstances, the bulbs never get past a dull orange glow,
because that produces enough light to trigger the charger to cut back
the charging current. Light bulbs last a *long* time at reduced voltage.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Dave Hanna wrote:
* Off road driving needs more low speed power and torque.
Your motor choice might be decided by money.
How much motor do you want / how much are you willing to spend? If
money is not object, then by all means, put the 13" motor in it!
http://www.evsource.com/tls_motors.php
Dave, welcome to the list;
For the mountain areas like Colorado where one can take real
advantage of regen, an AC system will work very nicely
extending your range (or allowing smaller battery for the same range)
and saving on the brake pads - keep in mind it is very hard on brakes
to stop heavier than stock vehicle. If you have regenerative braking,
for long downhill runs you may not need to use mechanical brakes at all,
so it in fact is easier on brakes than for stock vehicle.
Consider it, I doubt you will ever regret if you choose it for other
reasons too. I'm biased toward AC (I'm one of suppliers), but this
is the case you could really take advantage of having it.
For low speeds ability keep your gear box and transfer case.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a comment I got from an EV wannabe.
Hi Lawrence: I've been out of town and am just catching up on various EV
posts. I have the Monster Garage episode about the EV conversion on tape if
you or anyone may be interested. The ending got cut off though. What
happened on the third trial run? I'll save this tape for reference. It has
converted me against conversions.
Name excluded.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> Minnesota bill HF1838 says...
>> The department shall not issue a vehicle identification number to a
>> homemade neighborhood electric or low-speed vehicle or retrofitted
>> golf cart, and such vehicles do not qualify as neighborhood electric
>> vehicles.
Eric Poulsen wrote:
> What's their definition of "commercial" vs "home made"? Usually state
> law defines all of the terms used in the law. What's to stop you from
> being a manufacturer? Get a biz license, make up a VIN, and designate
> it an NEV.
I don't know; maybe you could start a business and jump through all the
bureaucratic hoops to build just one.
I'm bothered that it is perfectly legal and straightforward to make a
home built regular car or motorcycle (there are already rules for
licensing them), but they chose to explicitly BAN making your own NEV,
no matter what.
Just think about how easy and inexpensive it would be to convert a
regular car into an NEV with a smallish motor and battery pack. That is
being forbidden.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would have thought the element would die from vibration. I can see
that with the charger cutting back they would glow dimly. I suspect
most won't have that fancy option. Can we have a schematic?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> > Ok. How has the bulb reliability been?
>
> None have failed from normal use. I've only burned them out from
> connecting a regulator backwards, or physically breaking the bulb from
> dropping something on it.
>
> Under normal circumstances, the bulbs never get past a dull orange glow,
> because that produces enough light to trigger the charger to cut back
> the charging current. Light bulbs last a *long* time at reduced voltage.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EMB means electro mechanical batteries
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 12:17 PM
Subject: RE: EMB's
> Hi Peekay,
>
> What do you mean by EMB?
> Electric Motor Bike?
> If so, then there are quite a few people on the list with EMBs.
> Someone was asking recently about what would be required for a racing
> bike.
> Look through the archives - there has been lots of discussion about aero
> fairings, safely housing batteries in case of accident, gearbox or
> direct drive, etc.
>
> Mark
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of peekay
> > Sent: Tuesday, 25 April 2006 2:19 PM
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: EMB's
> >
> >
> > this is a discussion list for EV's .. so i am a bit
> > surprised at no discussion on EMB's at all
> >
> > a few posts that did come thru indicate that
> > these are not suitable .. more of 'feeling' than fact
> >
> > what are the facts ? especially the present status
> > of their development/implementation ?
> >
> > i'm sure that the usa govt lab guys are not silly
> > enough to make 'tall claims'
> >
> > ..peekay
> >
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________
> > Yahoo! Photos - NEW, now offering a quality print service
> > from just 7p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/323 - Release Date: 24/04/2006
>
>
___________________________________________________________
24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jacob,
I am been running a 3-speed manual Saginaw in my EV for 31 years. Its is a
very heavy duty truck type transmission, that has a 3.5:1 1st gear and a
1.89:1 2nd gear ratio. Very stiff shifting.
These higher gear ratio's with a 5.57:1 axle ratio, gave a overall ratio of
19.495:1 in 1st gear and 10.52 in 2nd gear.
Back in 1975, a 3 speed GM 350 Automatic was used with a 1.75:1 ratio torque
converter, with the motor set at 500 rpm idle, speed. This rpm allows for
the front transmission pump to come up in pressure. Many people bought some
EV's with this feature.
My EV was tested for about 1000 miles, with the same type of transmission,
but with out a torque converter. Starting from 0 rpm up to 500 rpm, worn
out the clutches, because there was not enough pump pressure at start up.
Today, if you use a non-functional converter (which is welded)
or a front pump drive shaft that eliminates the torque converter, you still
must have some pump pressure for the clutch disc's to work.
You can either shift in neutral and bring the rpm up to about 500 rpm or
install a external pump to bring up the pressure. This would be either
control with a Hand-Off-Auto selector switch, where in the manual, the 12
volt ignition circuit turns on a contactor to run a electric motor driven
pump, or if you select the Auto position, the ignition circuit runs threw a
pressure switch, that allows the electric pump to shut down, when the
transmission comes up to the operating rpm.
In choosing a transmission and overall gear ratio, be sure to choose the
correct gear ratios in the transmission for your EV weight. For my EV which
weighs 6840 lbs, I need the 19.5:1 overall starting ratio and a 5.57:1 axle
ratio.
This year, I am going to test out a 3-speed TH-350 3-speed Auto transmission
from TCI Automatic. Normally these transmission come with a 1.75:1 torque
convert, a 2.75:1 1st gear and a 1.75:1 2nd gear.
If I choose this standard gearing, this would give a overall starting ratio
of 1.75 x 2.75 x 5.57 = 26.0:1 and a ending ratio of 2.75 x 5.57 = 15.31:1
when the torque converter is lockup.
You can also have the gear ratios change to any ratio you want. I can
either go with a 3.5:1 1st gear ratio x 5.57 = 19.495:1 which would be the
same as my manual gear ratios using a front pump drive shaft and electric
motor driven transmission pump for starting.
I could also leave in a lockup type converter, that will do the same thing,
but I would have the option of adding another 1.75:1 ratio which would give
me 1.75 x 3.5 x 5.57 = 34.11:1 overall ratio which would be wicked torque
breaker. The maximum speed at this ratio would be 15 mph at 6000 rpm.
You can either have the transmission program to shift by torque or by the
rpm limits.
With the TCI units there is another option, where you can used a manual
value body that allows you to stay in 1st or 2nd gear when you want it. A
trans brake is ideal for a second braking option, where you just don't rely
on a emergency brake.
If you used one of the TCI circlematic transmission which is a 2 speed power
glide they use in the Monster Garage EV, but I think they used a torque
converter or a pump shaft. There is another manual value body option for
this transmission, where you do need a external valving of pump pressure.
This manual value is control by a pedal, (like a clutch pedal) where you
can place the transmission in gear while easing out the pedal releasing the
line pressure if your at or above 500 rpm during shifting to different
gears.
This Power Glide transmission might be ok for EV's under 4000 lbs. My motor
ampere would be too high with a gear ratio transmission that has a 1st gear
ratio of 1.76 which is about the same in the 2nd gear in a 3 speed.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jacob Portukalian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 10:45 AM
Subject: Automatic, Manual, or CVT?
> I am planning a conversion and was wanting some input on the transmission.
>
> Automatic, Manual, CVT, or none?
>
> Looking for pros, cons, tips, tricks, caveats, and any other type of
> feedback from people that have actually used them.
>
> Thanks,
>
> ~Jacob
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> I would have thought the element would die from vibration.
These are 3v lamps. Very low voltage lamps have a short, thick filament
wire. Notice that your car's 12v lamps don't seem to be bothered much by
vibration.
> I can see that with the charger cutting back they would glow dimly.
> I suspect most won't have that fancy option.
Fancy? My sensor is a $3.98 night light. Instead of a light bulb, it
controls a little relay that switches the charger from "high" to "low".
> Can we have a schematic?
Schematic? For 3 parts in series? :-) It's just two zeners and a light
bulb (with a resistor in parallel with the light bulb if you like that
option).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks, I have no connection with this bus on Ebay, about a year ago
I bought 5 of these and had them hauled to Reno. We are parting most of
them out for other EV projects and spares, I donated one to the Physics
department here in Reno, we are using it for a mobile science demo lab
for our "Taking Physics on the Road" program, it runs great! If you want
to skip the Ebay hassle I have one remaining running bus with batteries
and charger that I would sell, other wise due to space needs I'll have
to part it out too, please let me know if anyone is interested. The stm
180s seem to hold a charge and after some sorting we retrofitted 36 of
them into 2 G-vans with a 3rd in progress it gives a 50-60 mile range.
After we finish with retrofitting all of our local EVs I may even have
some stm 180s for sale. Bill Brinsmead
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Nick and all,
The biggest frustrations I experienced with my JeepEV project were due
to getting (questionable) advice from a single source
How about sharing the questionable advice you got with us all? It might
help some who are making the same decisions you were...maybe even
getting the advice from the same shady source you did :) (I didn't give
you any advice, so at least I'm relieved :)).
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can see that with the charger cutting back they would glow dimly.
I suspect most won't have that fancy option.
Fancy? My sensor is a $3.98 night light. Instead of a light bulb, it
controls a little relay that switches the charger from "high" to "low".
My (ha) detector is going to be a few phototransistors scattered thru
the pack in parallel. When one of the bulbs lights up, it will drop that
transistor low and you will know that somewhere in the pack a light has
gone on.
Now for the big question: How do I shuttle back the charger. I'm still
thinking about this one. Lee, when you pull back, how far back do you
lower your charge current? Also what are you using for epoxy? I'm about
ready to grab a tube o goo from Home Despot.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Am I surprised? Not really. Just like the earlier show that featured
the "Goin' Postal" van conversion, this show was far from a recruiting
tool for ordinary people looking to get into EVs. You don't show people
with sparks flying off uninsulated wrenches and vehicles with motors
shearing off keys and sputtering down the track to someone who just
wants reliable, safe transportation.
-Tom
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
This is a comment I got from an EV wannabe.
Hi Lawrence: I've been out of town and am just catching up on various
EV posts. I have the Monster Garage episode about the EV conversion
on tape if you or anyone may be interested. The ending got cut off
though. What happened on the third trial run? I'll save this tape
for reference. It has converted me against conversions.
Name excluded.
--
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John;
What's that ugly Red Cable doing among those pretty Orange ones'!
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
-----Original Message-----
From: John Wayland [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 9:15 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Look Mommy, it's the Ice Cream Car!
Hello to All,
I know what you're all saying about now, Wayland's up to more weird stuff
again. What's up with this goofy title? Read on.
I had written:
> Sunday is White Zombie time, and as I type this, Tim Brehm is on his
> way here. The new pack of Aerobatteries are being installed today, but
> this time there'll be 30 of them, not the regular 29....this is racing
> and if we can push something a bit to go quicker and faster, than so
> be it. I've also got the master's OK on my 360V plan, so it's not as
> if he doesn't know what I'm up to :-)
The battery change-out went very smoothly. Of course, with the image of
plasma balls still very clear in my mind, when ever either adding or
removing the stubby thick copper bus bars between the terminals of numerous
powerful Hawkers, extreme care and diligent work are a must.
About the 'need' to replace the previous 348V stack of Hawkers, came this
second request from my friend Myles Twete:
>If Hawkers can "routinely" dish out 800+ amps without harm, why did you
need a new set in less than a year >of drag racing? I know I asked this
before and maybe I missed the answer, but your claim does beg the >question.
When we race our EVs and have a battery company sponsoring the batteries to
us, they want us to push them to the limits. We get to push the envelope and
hopefully set a few records, they get real world R & D and get to see how
far their products can be stressed. It's a win -win deal. What I have
talked about in the past about, is the ability of the tough Hawkers to take
a full year of racing punishment with no battery failures. This is a fact,
none of the Hawker Aerobatteries failed, ever.
Other batteries I've used have blown up, melted, reversed cells, etc.
Remember Woodburn '04? I tried the imported made-in-China 29 lb. 35 ahr 12V
UPS style batteries under the Exide name (because I could not get Hawkers at
the time) in White Zombie. About 100 ft. after launch with a 900 amp current
draw, two batteries blew up. I swapped out the two blown batteries with
fresh ones, then turned the current limit down to a dismal 500 amps, and
promptly blew a third battery up right at the start line. Clearly, these
batteries even at more weight and 9 more ahrs of capacity, were not close to
being as robust as were Hawkers. I've also blown up Optimas under the duress
of drag racing. To be fair, I later went with the made-in-America Exide
Orbitals and as many will remember, had fantastic reliability and awesome
power delivery, though these 'are'
40 lb. larger sized batteries. Hawkers too, can be destroyed, but my point
is, that they can be pushed more to the extremes, pound for pound, than any
other lead acid battery I've ever used...period!
>I wouldn't dispute that Hawkers are the cats meow, but I gotta know---did
high currents and heat kill >those Hawkers or did lack of batt regs do it,
or what?
Again, neither high current or high heat killed any of the 29 Aerobatteries
used in White Zombie. Now, any time you heat lead acid batteries to 120-130
degrees while racing, and at the same time, you suck 1100 amps from these
small 24 lb. batteries, it certainly isn't 'good' for them. After a racing
season is over and the batteries are allowed to sit idle after repeated
cookings at the track, they do loose capacity...they aren't the same as
brand new anymore. That said, the Hawker AeroBatteries delivered as
promised. In fact, with their 5 second rating at 925 amps, I'd say that at
1000 amps most of the way down the track for 12 seconds, they exceeded our
expectations. The majority of the 29 batteries are still rock'n a year later
after all those HARD runs and high temp racing nights where we got the
batteries soooo hot, touching the rear seat area aluminum tray would almost
burn one's hand.
We 'did' super heat the pack on the last night where we tried to bust into
the 11s. After the last run of the night, when Tim returned from the track
to the pits, the Lexan cover over the rear seat area pack was fogged, so we
managed to gas some of the batteries. Many months later in my story 'The
Names have been Changed to Protect the Innocent' (posted at the Plasma Boy
web site under 'Wayland's Words', I mentioned how a few of the batteries
seemed to be out of equalization compared to the rest. A few weeks ago, Tim
and I pried off the lid on one of the lazy batteries and found pooled
electrolyte in the battery top that had collected after the gassing incident
last year, which explains why a few batteries were lagging behind all the
rest of them. It was more than likely the extreme temperatures we took the
batteries to, more than the bump up from 1000 to 1100 battery amps that
caused this. I have spares that could be dropped in to replace any weak
batteries to restore the pack to near new status, but with a brand new pack
of batteries on hand, it just made sense to use them instead. All of the
batteries that were in the trunk location are still perfect and read 12.97V
+ or - a few hundredths after a refresh charge, most likely due to how they
stayed a bit cooler with their compartment floor exposed to 100+ mph cooling
air.
All but a few in the rear seat compartment read the same 12.97V + or - a few
hundredths after a refresh charge, so except for the few that we pushed a
little too hard, the batteries are still in excellent shape.
These batteries will go on to power up other projects.
From Myles' 1st email:
>Is it typical for racers to replace their batteries annually....
Let's see.... is it typical? No. Usually, getting sponsorship for racing
batteries is very difficult. The norm is, that once you do get a sponsored
pack, the batteries have to last for several years. This time around, with
the car performing up to and past expectations, and especially with Dick
Brown's help (AeroBatteries), Hawker has been 100% behind our efforts of
pushing the performance envelope with their batteries. After doing exactly
as we said we'd do...set a new world record 'in the 12s', they were more
than pleased. This year we're looking towards the 11's, and realizing how
important it is to have a strong pack to achieve an ET in the 11's, I
requested a fresh pack for the 2006 season. I'm very grateful Hawker has
once again, stepped up for us.
OK, back to Sunday's battery removal -installation. We had to find a spot
for the 30th battery. Unfortunately, the rear seat area and trunk area
battery enclosures had not a bit of extra space for the 30th battery. I
decided to place this battery in-between the two packs and mounted it in its
own aluminum tray piggy-backing it to the aluminum support bracket just
behind the rear seat bulkhead. Though not as tidy as having it fit inside
one of the trays with the rest of the batteries, it does look 'interesting'
and it offers a full view of what these batteries look like. We topped off
the new 360V pack with .5 amp charge, and 5 minutes after the charger was
shut down, the pack rested at, get this, 406 volts! Driving the car up and
out the shop driveway skimmed away the surface charge and the pack rested at
391 volts. Tim and I took a sedate 5-6 mile cruise, which include a 2 mile
~4% grade to negotiate and were amazed to see the pack not falling below 365
volts or so under the load. 40-45 mph cruising had the battery current draw
so low that the 1500 amp analog Simpson meter's (with its 20 amps
increments) needle barely moved. I estimate the average current was between
10 and 15 amps.
After the short drive, we returned to recharge the pack.
About a half hour later, there was still good light in the late
afternoon-early evening for taking a few digital photos, so we drove the car
over to the neighborhood park for a little photo shoot thing. Tim got a
little nervous when I directed him to drive up and into the park using the
paved walking paths clearly marked 'No Motor Vehicles Allowed'. It was OK,
I've done this before with Blue Meanie and had gotten away with it. The
Datsun 1200 is small enough, it can drive on the paved walkways to where the
tires stay on pavement all the time. I do respect those at the park using
the walkways, and if I find folks near us, I ask if it would bother them, of
course, taking the opportunity to point out the car is electric powered and
won't offend them with noxious fumes and all. As in previous park car stuff,
everyone I talked with seemed thrilled that we had brought an electric car.
On this warm night, there were quite a few people enjoying the park. As Tim
and I slowly and carefully glided White Zombie past young families with
their small children playing on swing sets and past couples walking their
dogs, we got quite few smiles and slightly surprised looks, but the best one
came from a little kid, maybe five years old. As the white car with all the
colorful stickers rolled past, she said "Look mommy, it's the ice cream
car!"
See Ya......John Wayland
Less than 3 weeks until the High Voltage Nationals!
Note: Photos of the new battery pack are up at the web page in the White
Zombie section under 'More Voltage'
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
--- End Message ---
