EV Digest 5411
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: MN NEV law
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Fywheel Batteries (Elecro Mechanical Batteries?)
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) V28 battery (was Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet someone is
happy.)
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) found a local EV buddy
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) NEDRA election results
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Thoughts on getting publicity
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Thoughts on getting publicity
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Lee regulators, 0.2
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: V28 battery (was Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet someone
is happy.)
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Lee regulators, 0.2
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Lee regulators
by kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Lee regulators
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) V28 battery and heli drag racing
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Dallas - Who Killed the Electric Car?
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EMB's .. Electro Mechanical Batteries
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: V28 battery (was Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet someone
is happy.)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Explain.
Seth Rothenberg wrote:
Yeah, it does seem pretty arbitrary.
Does it seem unconstitutional?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
http://www.afstrinity.com/other-facts-faqs.html
Interesting that the last one AFS Trinity, is building a flywheel powered
hybrid vehicle for demonstration...
Assuming you're referring to their "Extreme Hybrid" technology. This is
L-ion batteries and ultracapacitors. No flywheels, excepting the one in
the ICE engine.
http://www.afstrinity.com/extr-tech.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone tested the Dewalt Lithium batts?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> We are just using standard RC chargers which handle Lithium cells,
the v28s
> are charged as Lithium Polymers despite being Lithium Ion based (most rc
> chargers have options for both). A typical mid-range charger is
something
> like this:
>
> http://www.rc-direct.com/schulze330.htm
>
> > Are the RC guys using individual cell BMS or just charging the
> > string as a single battery?
>
> Really it's both, often with v28s, I would just stick it on the
charger and
> charge it as a string. However, most people make the packs with
balancing
> tabs on them and can be charged through a balancer. Examples are here:
>
> http://www.espritmodel.com/accesories_balancer.html
>
> For RC, some kind of individual cell BMS is a must though. The
balancer goes
> inline between the charger and the pack. I expect these are the same
idea as
> regulators used in EVs just much smaller? When charging LiPo batteries I
> *always* use the balancer inline, LiPos need babying far more than
the v28s.
> With v28s I'll often keep an eye on the balance and do a balancing
charge
> once every 5 cycles (they never seem to need it though).
>
> Hence why the RC guys love them, they can be discharged to a level
where an
> RC heli won't fly any longer and still spring right back on a charge,
> furthermore packs never really seem to go out of balance much - A
too deeply
> discharged LiPo on the other hand would swell up and be useless. Most RC
> LiPo packs can be charged at 1C only, for some people, the v28s are
handling
> 3C charges fine.
>
> These packs were going for US$80 on ebay for a while, unfortunately,
all the
> RC guys are getting in bidding wars over them and it's keeping the price
> high. Currently the E-one Moli guys (who make the cells) are at full
> capacity just to supply Milwaukee but I'm sure this will change in
time.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Neon John
> Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2006 3:39 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: V28 battery (was Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet
> someone is happy.)
>
> On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:31:26 +1000, "David Ankers"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >The guts of the v28s:
> >
> >http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=508443
>
> Thanks much for the link. That info and the low cost of the packs
> (street price just a bit over $100) has my juices flowing....
>
> Are the RC guys using individual cell BMS or just charging the string
> as a single battery?
>
> What chargers?
>
> I have a non-EV project in mind where these cells would work perfectly
> if I didn't have to BMS every one individually. Charging speed isn't
> an issue - overnight would be fine - so I can sacrifice speed for
> simplicity.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David,
One reference point for using a Civic is that AC Propulsion used many
of them to convert to EV's. 100 to 150kw EV's holding 28 D34 Yellow
Top batterys.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi list,
>
> After working full time the last few days to get more knowledge on
EVs and
> the direction I want to progress, I've come to a basic setup and
what I'd
> like to ask is if I'm going in the right direction:
>
> Donor car will be a Civic or maybe a Hyundai Excel(MY96+) called
Accent then
> in the US. I know the Civic has been done and Lee stated this was an ok
> choice, any one done a Hyundai Excel (accent)? I'm strongly leaning
to the
> Civic due to the abundance of performance parts for this vehicle,
although
> the Hyundai is lighter and a lot cheaper glider.
>
> System will be DC based, I originally wanted an AC system as they appear
> more of a turnkey solution, yet they seem to be limited by an
inverter that
> only handles 100KW? My next conversion will likely be AC though.
>
> Motor 9" ADC or Warp 9" (will a 9" motor fit in a Civic?)
> Zilla 1K
> 18 orbital 34XCD
> PFC-20 charger on board with some kind of BMS (regulators).
>
> Keeping Civic gearbox and clutch. This is Girlfriend friendly and I
can let
> other people drive it.
>
> Is this going to be useable for two things:
>
> 1. Showing that EVs are just as fast as an ICE - I' like to change some
> perceptions.
>
> 2. A daily run around that can do 20 miles without making the
battery suffer
> if driven like an normal ICE - my girlfriend will be driving it at
times -,
> so say a max range of 40 miles?
>
> Am I going in the right direction?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dave
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been discussing my EV with a colleague
forever, and slowly the details come out, he
has an old Saturn (95 stick, like mine) that
no-one is using, and his son wants to convert it...
and he owns the Factory Service Manuals....
(Body manual on my desk now :-)
so, they may come help with some things,
at least they'll get to see a converted car,
decide what they like about it...and they
seem to both be car geeks.
(local is a relative term, he needs to traverse
all of Queens, Bronx, Manhattan, half of Jersey
to visit me, but on Sundays it's not always bad :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know what happen to the NEDRA election results?
As an interested party it would be nice to know.
Brian, John, Father time, Have you heard anything?
Shawn Lawless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
Bill Dennis and I are famous :)
http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3752061
My first newspaper article in the local paper (not this one) came by e-mailing
the paper when I saw an article on gas prices (or something related). I
mentioned I had an electric car, and would be glad to be interviewed for an
article. They called a few days later.
This article came about by a news correspondent seeing the first article.
I feel like it's important to not only drive around our EVs and let
neighbors/friends know, but try to get the word out further with whatever means
are available. Although EVs in their current state aren't a solution to
everyone's travel needs, they present an alternative for some - in their
current state. This isn't a technology that's 5 or 10 years down the road...at
least for those willing to convert their own :)
-Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Congrats Ryan and Bill!
Nice article. Also a good suggestion to get out and spread the word
now that there's a somewhat more amenable audience.
My site has seen over 200% increase in daily traffic over the last
week and a half and on some days I'm fielding a half dozen emails.
I wonder though if it might not be wiser to suggest a hybrid OR ev,
depending on the type of person. The more interest in hybrids, the
bigger the advanced battery market, and presumably some economies of
scale trickling down to help us and boost more pure EV solutions.
-Jerry
http://www.evconvert.com/
On Apr 26, 2006, at 11:40 AM, Ryan Bohm wrote:
Hi Everyone,
Bill Dennis and I are famous :)
http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3752061
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm... a 10 gauge lug is rather small to act as a heatsink for 5 watts.
Check the actual junction temperature you get for your diodes. You may
need to leave off the 10 ohm resistor so you don't overheat the diodes.
I'll double check, but the one I built last night with the diode in the
lug+heat sink compound didn't seem to get very hot. Off the battery it
got very warm, but on the battery not really.
I picked up 60 of those 6 gauge eyelets with 1/4 holes to try out. The
only problem is that space is at a *serious* premium in these batteries,
and I am not sure that a 6 gauge lug will fit and make the turn. If not
I'll split the 10 gauge lugs and wrap them around the bigger diodes.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All I can say is in RC land these don't as promising, the A123 cells Dewalt
are using are claimed discharge at 35c constant 80c long pulse and 100c
instant pulse, however they are smaller capacity. Their cycle graph though
only shows lifetime at 10C constant (which is down to 80% after 1000 cycles)
http://www.batteriesdigest.com/id471.htm
The main issue putting RC guys off these is the low energy density so they
are going to weight more. They do have exceptional power density though -
which maybe good for the drag race guys? Both EV and RC Heli (yeap people
drag race RC helis). Another issue for the RC crowd is that they can't be
charged with a standard RC charger that does lithium cells as the normal cut
off at 4.2 volts damages the A123 cells.
Another great thing about the technology from both E-one Moli and a123 is
how safe its meant to be, after the RC guys have had numerous LiPo fires
(mostly user compliancy / mishandling), Lithium manganese is far safer:
http://www.bmz-gmbh.de/aktuell/akkutest2.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2006 1:11 AM
To: David Ankers
Subject: V28 battery (was Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet someone
is happy.)
Has anyone tested the Dewalt Lithium batts?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> We are just using standard RC chargers which handle Lithium cells,
the v28s
> are charged as Lithium Polymers despite being Lithium Ion based (most rc
> chargers have options for both). A typical mid-range charger is
something
> like this:
>
> http://www.rc-direct.com/schulze330.htm
>
> > Are the RC guys using individual cell BMS or just charging the
> > string as a single battery?
>
> Really it's both, often with v28s, I would just stick it on the
charger and
> charge it as a string. However, most people make the packs with
balancing
> tabs on them and can be charged through a balancer. Examples are here:
>
> http://www.espritmodel.com/accesories_balancer.html
>
> For RC, some kind of individual cell BMS is a must though. The
balancer goes
> inline between the charger and the pack. I expect these are the same
idea as
> regulators used in EVs just much smaller? When charging LiPo batteries I
> *always* use the balancer inline, LiPos need babying far more than
the v28s.
> With v28s I'll often keep an eye on the balance and do a balancing
charge
> once every 5 cycles (they never seem to need it though).
>
> Hence why the RC guys love them, they can be discharged to a level
where an
> RC heli won't fly any longer and still spring right back on a charge,
> furthermore packs never really seem to go out of balance much - A
too deeply
> discharged LiPo on the other hand would swell up and be useless. Most RC
> LiPo packs can be charged at 1C only, for some people, the v28s are
handling
> 3C charges fine.
>
> These packs were going for US$80 on ebay for a while, unfortunately,
all the
> RC guys are getting in bidding wars over them and it's keeping the price
> high. Currently the E-one Moli guys (who make the cells) are at full
> capacity just to supply Milwaukee but I'm sure this will change in
time.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Neon John
> Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2006 3:39 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: V28 battery (was Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet
> someone is happy.)
>
> On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:31:26 +1000, "David Ankers"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >The guts of the v28s:
> >
> >http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=508443
>
> Thanks much for the link. That info and the low cost of the packs
> (street price just a bit over $100) has my juices flowing....
>
> Are the RC guys using individual cell BMS or just charging the string
> as a single battery?
>
> What chargers?
>
> I have a non-EV project in mind where these cells would work perfectly
> if I didn't have to BMS every one individually. Charging speed isn't
> an issue - overnight would be fine - so I can sacrifice speed for
> simplicity.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It was mentioned before that AC propulsion did a Civic conversion that had 6
second 0 to 60 time but I couldn't find any information on it, fantastic to
know that up to 28 D34 batteries will fit, thank you. In fact AC
Propulsion's AC-150 system is exactly what I would like to fit as well,
except for the $25k price tag!
Are their any pictures of this conversion anywhere? I'd be interested in
their battery placement for sure.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2006 1:19 AM
To: David Ankers
Subject: Re: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
Hi David,
One reference point for using a Civic is that AC Propulsion used many
of them to convert to EV's. 100 to 150kw EV's holding 28 D34 Yellow
Top batterys.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi list,
>
> After working full time the last few days to get more knowledge on
EVs and
> the direction I want to progress, I've come to a basic setup and
what I'd
> like to ask is if I'm going in the right direction:
>
> Donor car will be a Civic or maybe a Hyundai Excel(MY96+) called
Accent then
> in the US. I know the Civic has been done and Lee stated this was an ok
> choice, any one done a Hyundai Excel (accent)? I'm strongly leaning
to the
> Civic due to the abundance of performance parts for this vehicle,
although
> the Hyundai is lighter and a lot cheaper glider.
>
> System will be DC based, I originally wanted an AC system as they appear
> more of a turnkey solution, yet they seem to be limited by an
inverter that
> only handles 100KW? My next conversion will likely be AC though.
>
> Motor 9" ADC or Warp 9" (will a 9" motor fit in a Civic?)
> Zilla 1K
> 18 orbital 34XCD
> PFC-20 charger on board with some kind of BMS (regulators).
>
> Keeping Civic gearbox and clutch. This is Girlfriend friendly and I
can let
> other people drive it.
>
> Is this going to be useable for two things:
>
> 1. Showing that EVs are just as fast as an ICE - I' like to change some
> perceptions.
>
> 2. A daily run around that can do 20 miles without making the
battery suffer
> if driven like an normal ICE - my girlfriend will be driving it at
times -,
> so say a max range of 40 miles?
>
> Am I going in the right direction?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dave
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't have any photos in digital form, but my memory from seeing the
ACP Civic is that the entire back seat and hatchback area was(is) full
of the Optimas. I don't think there were any batteries under the hood.
Andrew
David Ankers wrote:
It was mentioned before that AC propulsion did a Civic conversion that had 6
second 0 to 60 time but I couldn't find any information on it, fantastic to
know that up to 28 D34 batteries will fit, thank you. In fact AC
Propulsion's AC-150 system is exactly what I would like to fit as well,
except for the $25k price tag!
Are their any pictures of this conversion anywhere? I'd be interested in
their battery placement for sure.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2006 1:19 AM
To: David Ankers
Subject: Re: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
Hi David,
One reference point for using a Civic is that AC Propulsion used many
of them to convert to EV's. 100 to 150kw EV's holding 28 D34 Yellow
Top batterys.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi list,
After working full time the last few days to get more knowledge on
EVs and
the direction I want to progress, I've come to a basic setup and
what I'd
like to ask is if I'm going in the right direction:
Donor car will be a Civic or maybe a Hyundai Excel(MY96+) called
Accent then
in the US. I know the Civic has been done and Lee stated this was an ok
choice, any one done a Hyundai Excel (accent)? I'm strongly leaning
to the
Civic due to the abundance of performance parts for this vehicle,
although
the Hyundai is lighter and a lot cheaper glider.
System will be DC based, I originally wanted an AC system as they appear
more of a turnkey solution, yet they seem to be limited by an
inverter that
only handles 100KW? My next conversion will likely be AC though.
Motor 9" ADC or Warp 9" (will a 9" motor fit in a Civic?)
Zilla 1K
18 orbital 34XCD
PFC-20 charger on board with some kind of BMS (regulators).
Keeping Civic gearbox and clutch. This is Girlfriend friendly and I
can let
other people drive it.
Is this going to be useable for two things:
1. Showing that EVs are just as fast as an ICE - I' like to change some
perceptions.
2. A daily run around that can do 20 miles without making the
battery suffer
if driven like an normal ICE - my girlfriend will be driving it at
times -,
so say a max range of 40 miles?
Am I going in the right direction?
Cheers,
Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:58 AM 4/26/2006, you wrote:
Hmm... a 10 gauge lug is rather small to act as a heatsink for 5 watts.
Check the actual junction temperature you get for your diodes. You may
need to leave off the 10 ohm resistor so you don't overheat the diodes.
I'll double check, but the one I built last night with the diode in the
lug+heat sink compound didn't seem to get very hot. Off the battery it got
very warm, but on the battery not really.
I picked up 60 of those 6 gauge eyelets with 1/4 holes to try out. The
only problem is that space is at a *serious* premium in these batteries,
and I am not sure that a 6 gauge lug will fit and make the turn. If not
I'll split the 10 gauge lugs and wrap them around the bigger diodes.
Chris
How much too small are the 10 gauge lugs? If it is not very much you may
be able to take a steel rod or punch say 0.005" or 0.010" larger then the
body of the diode and a smooth radius on the end. Put the lug in a vice
clamped on the flat, a little grease and tap the punch into the hole to
expand it so the diode will fit.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let me say that this is a good deal for anyone out there who doesn't have regs
of any kind. I made my own (only 13 batteries and lots of
room, so it wasn't a problem) and it was a simple, if somewhat time-consuming
(and messy) job. But $10 is only a little more than the parts
cost (the surprising thing is that the stupid lugs turn out to be the costliest
part of the unit!) I can certainly see how a production line would
make it a relatively easy job.
"I used heavy-duty 6ga tinned eyelets, with a 5/16" bolt hole, from
Waytek Wire, part# 36472.
For folks still reading this: Is it worth my while to make a "production
run" of these regulators? They're very tedious to make in small
quantities, but not bad if I set up a little "production line" and make
a couple hundred at once. Who would be interested in them at $9.95 each?"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It sounds like you are describing Allan's very first conversion. After
that car, the pack was put into a neat tunnel that extends from the
firewall to the trunk. There are several Civics running around now.
Mike
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I don't have any photos in digital form, but my memory from seeing the
> ACP Civic is that the entire back seat and hatchback area was(is) full
> of the Optimas. I don't think there were any batteries under the hood.
> Andrew
>
> David Ankers wrote:
>
> >It was mentioned before that AC propulsion did a Civic conversion
that had 6
> >second 0 to 60 time but I couldn't find any information on it,
fantastic to
> >know that up to 28 D34 batteries will fit, thank you. In fact AC
> >Propulsion's AC-150 system is exactly what I would like to fit as well,
> >except for the $25k price tag!
> >
> >Are their any pictures of this conversion anywhere? I'd be
interested in
> >their battery placement for sure.
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> >Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> >Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2006 1:19 AM
> >To: David Ankers
> >Subject: Re: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
> >
> >Hi David,
> >
> >One reference point for using a Civic is that AC Propulsion used many
> >of them to convert to EV's. 100 to 150kw EV's holding 28 D34 Yellow
> >Top batterys.
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Ankers" <ev@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Hi list,
> >>
> >>After working full time the last few days to get more knowledge on
> >>
> >>
> >EVs and
> >
> >
> >>the direction I want to progress, I've come to a basic setup and
> >>
> >>
> >what I'd
> >
> >
> >>like to ask is if I'm going in the right direction:
> >>
> >>Donor car will be a Civic or maybe a Hyundai Excel(MY96+) called
> >>
> >>
> >Accent then
> >
> >
> >>in the US. I know the Civic has been done and Lee stated this was
an ok
> >>choice, any one done a Hyundai Excel (accent)? I'm strongly leaning
> >>
> >>
> >to the
> >
> >
> >>Civic due to the abundance of performance parts for this vehicle,
> >>
> >>
> >although
> >
> >
> >>the Hyundai is lighter and a lot cheaper glider.
> >>
> >>System will be DC based, I originally wanted an AC system as they
appear
> >>more of a turnkey solution, yet they seem to be limited by an
> >>
> >>
> >inverter that
> >
> >
> >>only handles 100KW? My next conversion will likely be AC though.
> >>
> >>Motor 9" ADC or Warp 9" (will a 9" motor fit in a Civic?)
> >>Zilla 1K
> >>18 orbital 34XCD
> >>PFC-20 charger on board with some kind of BMS (regulators).
> >>
> >>Keeping Civic gearbox and clutch. This is Girlfriend friendly and I
> >>
> >>
> >can let
> >
> >
> >>other people drive it.
> >>
> >>Is this going to be useable for two things:
> >>
> >>1. Showing that EVs are just as fast as an ICE - I' like to change
some
> >>perceptions.
> >>
> >>2. A daily run around that can do 20 miles without making the
> >>
> >>
> >battery suffer
> >
> >
> >>if driven like an normal ICE - my girlfriend will be driving it at
> >>
> >>
> >times -,
> >
> >
> >>so say a max range of 40 miles?
> >>
> >>Am I going in the right direction?
> >>
> >>Cheers,
> >>
> >>Dave
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The price came down to $25k? Sweet!
The trick to getting the batts to fit is the tunnel. I'll see if
between me and the other gents if we have any pics online. I know we
sure took a bunch of them.
That was a Saturn ACP car and it did 0-45 in 6.0 seconds. I know cause
I was the stop watch holder. 0-60 was 9.5 seconds, without slicks even.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It was mentioned before that AC propulsion did a Civic conversion
that had 6
> second 0 to 60 time but I couldn't find any information on it,
fantastic to
> know that up to 28 D34 batteries will fit, thank you. In fact AC
> Propulsion's AC-150 system is exactly what I would like to fit as well,
> except for the $25k price tag!
>
> Are their any pictures of this conversion anywhere? I'd be interested in
> their battery placement for sure.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2006 1:19 AM
> To: David Ankers
> Subject: Re: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
>
> Hi David,
>
> One reference point for using a Civic is that AC Propulsion used many
> of them to convert to EV's. 100 to 150kw EV's holding 28 D34 Yellow
> Top batterys.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Ankers" <ev@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi list,
> >
> > After working full time the last few days to get more knowledge on
> EVs and
> > the direction I want to progress, I've come to a basic setup and
> what I'd
> > like to ask is if I'm going in the right direction:
> >
> > Donor car will be a Civic or maybe a Hyundai Excel(MY96+) called
> Accent then
> > in the US. I know the Civic has been done and Lee stated this was
an ok
> > choice, any one done a Hyundai Excel (accent)? I'm strongly leaning
> to the
> > Civic due to the abundance of performance parts for this vehicle,
> although
> > the Hyundai is lighter and a lot cheaper glider.
> >
> > System will be DC based, I originally wanted an AC system as they
appear
> > more of a turnkey solution, yet they seem to be limited by an
> inverter that
> > only handles 100KW? My next conversion will likely be AC though.
> >
> > Motor 9" ADC or Warp 9" (will a 9" motor fit in a Civic?)
> > Zilla 1K
> > 18 orbital 34XCD
> > PFC-20 charger on board with some kind of BMS (regulators).
> >
> > Keeping Civic gearbox and clutch. This is Girlfriend friendly and I
> can let
> > other people drive it.
> >
> > Is this going to be useable for two things:
> >
> > 1. Showing that EVs are just as fast as an ICE - I' like to change
some
> > perceptions.
> >
> > 2. A daily run around that can do 20 miles without making the
> battery suffer
> > if driven like an normal ICE - my girlfriend will be driving it at
> times -,
> > so say a max range of 40 miles?
> >
> > Am I going in the right direction?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Dave
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I truly like Lee's bulb reg's. I studied and tested them. But for 104
batterys I needed more precision, so I made my own clampers from
Rich's mk1 design. In a quantity of 110 they also came out to less
than $10 each.
I totally agree that the light bulb reg's should be the bare minimum
every pack should have.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Let me say that this is a good deal for anyone out there who doesn't
have regs of any kind. I made my own (only 13 batteries and lots of
> room, so it wasn't a problem) and it was a simple, if somewhat
time-consuming (and messy) job. But $10 is only a little more than
the parts
> cost (the surprising thing is that the stupid lugs turn out to be
the costliest part of the unit!) I can certainly see how a
production line would
> make it a relatively easy job.
>
> "I used heavy-duty 6ga tinned eyelets, with a 5/16" bolt hole, from
> Waytek Wire, part# 36472.
>
> For folks still reading this: Is it worth my while to make a "production
> run" of these regulators? They're very tedious to make in small
> quantities, but not bad if I set up a little "production line" and make
> a couple hundred at once. Who would be interested in them at $9.95
each?"
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you have the discharge graphs for the Dewalts handy? I'm surprised
that the 4.2v for the Dewalts is too high.
I was an avid R/C heli drag racer for many years.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> All I can say is in RC land these don't as promising, the A123 cells
Dewalt
> are using are claimed discharge at 35c constant 80c long pulse and 100c
> instant pulse, however they are smaller capacity. Their cycle graph
though
> only shows lifetime at 10C constant (which is down to 80% after 1000
cycles)
>
> http://www.batteriesdigest.com/id471.htm
>
> The main issue putting RC guys off these is the low energy density
so they
> are going to weight more. They do have exceptional power density
though -
> which maybe good for the drag race guys? Both EV and RC Heli (yeap
people
> drag race RC helis). Another issue for the RC crowd is that they
can't be
> charged with a standard RC charger that does lithium cells as the
normal cut
> off at 4.2 volts damages the A123 cells.
>
> Another great thing about the technology from both E-one Moli and
a123 is
> how safe its meant to be, after the RC guys have had numerous LiPo fires
> (mostly user compliancy / mishandling), Lithium manganese is far safer:
>
> http://www.bmz-gmbh.de/aktuell/akkutest2.html
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2006 1:11 AM
> To: David Ankers
> Subject: V28 battery (was Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet
someone
> is happy.)
>
> Has anyone tested the Dewalt Lithium batts?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Ankers" <ev@> wrote:
> >
> > We are just using standard RC chargers which handle Lithium cells,
> the v28s
> > are charged as Lithium Polymers despite being Lithium Ion based
(most rc
> > chargers have options for both). A typical mid-range charger is
> something
> > like this:
> >
> > http://www.rc-direct.com/schulze330.htm
> >
> > > Are the RC guys using individual cell BMS or just charging the
> > > string as a single battery?
> >
> > Really it's both, often with v28s, I would just stick it on the
> charger and
> > charge it as a string. However, most people make the packs with
> balancing
> > tabs on them and can be charged through a balancer. Examples are here:
> >
> > http://www.espritmodel.com/accesories_balancer.html
> >
> > For RC, some kind of individual cell BMS is a must though. The
> balancer goes
> > inline between the charger and the pack. I expect these are the same
> idea as
> > regulators used in EVs just much smaller? When charging LiPo
batteries I
> > *always* use the balancer inline, LiPos need babying far more than
> the v28s.
> > With v28s I'll often keep an eye on the balance and do a balancing
> charge
> > once every 5 cycles (they never seem to need it though).
> >
> > Hence why the RC guys love them, they can be discharged to a level
> where an
> > RC heli won't fly any longer and still spring right back on a charge,
> > furthermore packs never really seem to go out of balance much - A
> too deeply
> > discharged LiPo on the other hand would swell up and be useless.
Most RC
> > LiPo packs can be charged at 1C only, for some people, the v28s are
> handling
> > 3C charges fine.
> >
> > These packs were going for US$80 on ebay for a while, unfortunately,
> all the
> > RC guys are getting in bidding wars over them and it's keeping the
price
> > high. Currently the E-one Moli guys (who make the cells) are at full
> > capacity just to supply Milwaukee but I'm sure this will change in
> time.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ev@ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Neon John
> > Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2006 3:39 PM
> > To: ev@
> > Subject: Re: V28 battery (was Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage.
I'll bet
> > someone is happy.)
> >
> > On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:31:26 +1000, "David Ankers"
> > <dankers@> wrote:
> >
> > >The guts of the v28s:
> > >
> > >http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=508443
> >
> > Thanks much for the link. That info and the low cost of the packs
> > (street price just a bit over $100) has my juices flowing....
> >
> > Are the RC guys using individual cell BMS or just charging the string
> > as a single battery?
> >
> > What chargers?
> >
> > I have a non-EV project in mind where these cells would work perfectly
> > if I didn't have to BMS every one individually. Charging speed isn't
> > an issue - overnight would be fine - so I can sacrifice speed for
> > simplicity.
> >
> > John
> > ---
> > John De Armond
> > See my website for my current email address
> > http://www.johngsbbq.com
> > Cleveland, Occupied TN
> > Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There will be one showing of Who Killed the Electric Car in Dallas on
Sat April 29 at 5.00pm.
Part of the USA Film Festival.
AMC Northpark 15 Theatres.
more info: http://www.usafilmfestival.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hello eric
you are absolutely right .. mostly
dunno why it is still being considered as a good alternative
by llnl guys
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: EMB's .. Electro Mechanical Batteries
> Years ago, I did a bit of research into flywheel batteries, and I have a
> couple of answers, I think.
>
> Mark Fowler wrote:
> > Ah! Flywheel plus motor/generator.
> >
> > There has been a little discussion in the past.
> >
> > So peekay, what do you know?
> > A brief googling session didn't find much concrete info - lots of
> > projections and expectations though.
> >
> > Where can you get them?
> >
> In theory, from AFS Trinity nee "American Flywheel Systems". In the
> past, they've made larger flywheel power systems for buses and UPS
> applications. Looking at their site, seems they have some sort of
> ultracapacitor system for hybrids, now.
> > How much do they cost?
> >
> A lot.
> > How much energy can they store?
> >
> Their energy density was/is considerably better than lead-acid batteries.
> > How much power can they deliver?
> >
> If I remember correctly, the answer is "more than enough"
> > (both of the above need to be expressed as per unit volume or weight)
> > Do they come in suitable sizes for EVs?
> >
> Years ago, they were working on electric vehicle modules, which
> comprised two flywheels bolted together back-to-back in order to
> counteract the precession. AFAIK, this idea is defunct, and the modules
> are not available for "normal size" vehicles. Some research, or an
> email to the company would yield a better answer.
> > Can they handle the continual shocks and vibrations of a car?
> >
> They were described as having microprocessor-controlled magnetic
> bearings that would accommodate just that sort of thing.
> > Would there be any gyroscopic effects with such a large, high speed
> > rotating mass?
> >
> See my answer above about the dual modules.
> > What happens when they fail? (say in a collision where an EMB is
> > damaged)
> >
> The rotors were comprised of a composite material that was essentially
> like thread wound onto a bobbin that was held in place by a resin --
> sort of like a wheel comprised of spindled fiberglass thread. The idea
> being that in a catastrophic rotor delamination, it would merely
> unravel. I'm not sure what form the energy would take -- heat, I
> guess. Also, the modules were designed to contain in the event of such
> a failure.
> > Actually, that would be pretty scary - several kW of energy suddenly
> > released - I hope that nothing soft is in the plane of rotation as the
> > flywheel flies apart.
> > Sorry - that's really worst case scenario...
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of peekay
> >> Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2006 4:50 AM
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Subject: Re: EMB's .. Electro Mechanical Batteries
> >>
> >>
> >> EMB means electro mechanical batteries
> >>
> >> ..peekay
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 25/04/2006
>
>
___________________________________________________________
To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo!
Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keep in mind I don't really know.
What he had was a modified charger.. that had a Rs-232 port on it that then
went to his secure laptop.
Clearly he had access to the CPU in the charger, and could rewrite locations
at will. He ran this with a Script file that.. well had a LOT of hexadecimal
commands blasting by.
I can't decomplie microcode on the fly at 9600 Baud... Can you??
I hate it to up to... it's what I do for a living and I get paid to do stuff
that the world spends real money for.
Us folks the do product design and software development have man Years
invested in our Gear. and I know for a fact there are folks reading this
list that are learning from our general BS paths on
BMS and battery pack development. Heck this is a free list.. you can't get
better Bang for the Buck than watching Lee Hart and I battle over BMS
control therory.. Or you and I Smarten up each other on Peak Power Demand
charges. Secret stuff is what seprates those that Know from those that Buy.
It's one wire.. somebody posted a naked shot of the battery pack weeks ago..
I am NOT posting one. though.. I have a naked pack on my cluttered desk
right now along with about 15 Mk3 Digi Regs.
Rich's cluttered desk... is a amazing place I hope I don't have a fire
here.. I have ALL 4 USB ports doing something....
Oh it's one wire... the pack has 3 leads from the pack to the charger, Two
gotta be Plus and minus.. the other is..Data of some sort.
I have not ripped apart a charger...
Keep in mind "Smart battery smart Charger...Dumb tool."
So... hack to your hearts content. I would love to know more.. But.. I am
NOT the one doing the hacking... I have a good friend at Millwaukee Tool..
and I am NOT breaking my word with him.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: V28 battery (was Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet
someone is happy.)
> What did he look at the data with? Does the charger display any info?
>
> I think maybe I'll need to work down there again tomorrow. If I do,
> I'll call Milwaukee and ask them what is involved in "metering" the
> new battery and find out if we need to buy some new hardware.
>
> If there is a diagnostic bench for the battery and we get one, you can
> bet that I'll have it apart and be probing the interface with a
> protocol analyzer :-) I just hate the "I've got a secret" game.
>
> Did you get to see a battery apart? I wonder what the BMS board looks
> like and what kind of interface it has. Serial, 1-Wire or ????
>
> John
>
> On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 18:34:04 -0700, "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >On Monster Garage... I watched John Zick play with the data in side every
> >pack.
> >But.. he would not let me see the actual data, or explain it. So.. he
kept
> >his promise of not telling me much about the BMS in the V28 packs.
> >I understand his point of view.. and his employers.. but man I wanted to
> >know!!
> >
> >Cool stuff. but... it does need to be kept where it can do the owners the
> >most good.
> >
> >Rich Rudman
> >Manzanita Micro
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 4:12 PM
> >Subject: V28 battery (was Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet
someone
> >is happy.)
> >
> >
> >> On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:55:02 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>
> >> >1. The V28 is an AWESOME battery. While the show said we had 3 runs,
I
> >> >believe it was actually 5 full 1/4 mile runs + at least 4 hard launch
> >> >short runs at the shop, (ON ONE CHARGE) + 50-75% charge remaining in
> >> >the pack after all was said and done.
> >>
> >> I was down at my friendly local electric motor shop doing some work
> >> today when we got a fax from Milwaukee. We're a factory-authorized
> >> service center for Milwaukee so we get all the news. The fax
> >> announced a 5 year/ 2000 cycle warranty on the battery. The processor
> >> inside the battery tracks the time from initial charge and the cycle
> >> count.
> >>
> >> The FAX said that the cycle count and elapsed time could be displayed
> >> but it wasn't clear if this is on the consumer charger or on a
> >> diagnostic station that we'll presumably have to buy.
> >>
> >> In any event, considering the operating conditions in the hands of
> >> construction workers, having the confidence to offer a 5 year warranty
> >> is impressive indeed.
> >>
> >> John
> >> ---
> >> John De Armond
> >> See my website for my current email address
> >> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> >> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> >> Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
> >>
> >
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
>
--- End Message ---
