EV Digest 5428
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Zilla DAQ 4 mode questions or how to graph a race?
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Tire Pressure
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Power/Electric Meter
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Power/Electric Meter
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Review of Who Killed the Electric Car? on Living on Earth
by "Dr. Polsinelli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Regs, 0.3
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Power/Electric Meter
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: What is it with CVTs?
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) strange problem
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Power/Electric Meter
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motor Blowers - do you use them? how?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV Charging station
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Motor Blowers - do you use them? how?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV Charging station
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: What is it with CVTs?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: What is it with CVTs?
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Pete Sieger drives electric
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: What is it with CVTs?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Regs, 0.3
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: strange problem
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: What is it with CVTs?
by Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Motor Blowers - do you use them? how?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Zilla DAQ 4 mode questions or how to graph a race?
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: EV Charging station
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Motor Blowers - do you use them? how?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Zilla DAQ 4 mode questions or how to graph a race?
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Forgive the simple newbie question: Is it possible to get these stats and
use them for real time in car display or is it only useful for logging
purposes?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steven Ciciora
Sent: Sunday, 30 April 2006 4:17 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Zilla DAQ 4 mode questions or how to graph a race?
Hello!
I'm in a similar situation as you were (I assume)
and Mark was: I'd like to make a Zilla Data Acq.
system, but I currently don't have access to my zilla
(I will in about 1.5 weeks). Any chance do you have a
sample DAQ4 mode data file you wouldn't mind sending
me?
Thanks!
Steven Ciciora
--- Claudio Natoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> > I'm trying to hack together a "quick and dirty"
> race performance
> > graphing app for Woodburn. I've got a 10oz
> embedded computer that
> > gathers data from a hairball and a 3 axis
> accelerometer and
> > then tries to present that information in some
> useful format post race
> > via a built in webserver (ok, its overkill, but I
> had all the stuff handy)
>
> I wrote up something similar, and hit Otmar up for
> the DAQ4 details already. I doubt Otmar will mind me
> jumping in here...
>
>
> > (If someone can supply me with about 20 seconds of
> DAQ4 output taken
> > from a working car accelerating away from a
> stoplight that would be very
> > helpful. Just do a capture to a text file and mail
> it to me.)
>
> I have this already, but can't find them. If you
> give me a day or two I'll find/redo one for you.
>
> In any case, here's what I've got FWIW:
>
> > DrivePot: Seems obvious, I expect its either the
> raw ADC data
> > from the throttle pot, or maybe a 0-100% value.
>
> There is some offset at 0% (x42 iirc), and then
> about 1.5 bits per %. Easy to work out if you've got
> a working hairball.
>
>
> > Speed1: I think in this context Speed is motor
> rpm, since the
> > Zilla has only one vehicle speed input and there
> is Speed1,
> > and Speed2 values in other DAQ output.
>
> RPM for Motor 1 (the Hairball has two motor speed
> inputs). 1 bit per 100 RPM.
>
>
> > ArmatureCurrent: Motor loop current? Seems kinda
> odd to
> > label it Armature.
>
> 5 Amps/bit for Z1K. 10 Amps/bit for Z2K.
>
>
> > ZCurrentLimit: I expect this is normally a static
> (and uninteresting)
> > value but it may drop as heat sink temp increases.
>
> Correct. As above.
>
>
> > ArmDC: no idea
>
> Armature Duty Cycle. I think the 0-100% range is
> represented by 0 - 252 (ie. x00 - xfc).
>
>
> > BatteryVoltage: obvious
> > MotorVoltage: obvious
>
> 1.75390625 volts / bit.
>
>
> > HeatSinkTemp: obvious, but would this be
> interesting enough
> > to plot on the final graph?
>
> Otmar has this as a lookup iirc, but I believe it
> works out to be:
>
> Temp (degC) = DAQ value * 0.575757... - 1.3
>
> Cheers,
> Claudio
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jeff,
What the calculations do, is to find out what the deflection rate of the
tire with a certain know weight on each wheel. You can do this your self.
When manufacture build a car, they will choose a tire with the load rating
that is on the side of the tire, that will a little more than the load of
the car on each wheel.
How to Calculated:
1. Weigh the car at the rear and then at the front.
2. Lets say that the rear and front weights 2000 lbs and the weight
on each wheel is 1000 lbs.
3. Purchase a tire with a load rating of which will be over 1000 lbs
which might be a load rating of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4. You could air it up to the maximum of 1500lb at 40 psi for a
the Lowest Resistance which might be a very hard ride.
5. For the best ride, it is recommended the deflection of the tire
be in the range of 3/8 inch to 1/2 inch. 3/8 inch being a firm
ride and 1/2 inch being a softer ride.
Adjusting tire for deflection:
Tire deflection rate is the deflection of the height of the side wall of
the tire. This is measure while the tire is unloaded and than is loaded
with the weight of the car.
1. Jack the tire off a smooth level floor.
2. Air the tire up to the maximum load rating shown on the side of
the tire.
3. Lower the tire until it just touches the floor.
4. Measure from the floor to the bottom rim of the wheel. This
gives you the tire wall height, unloaded.
5. Lower the tire to the floor, allowing full weight on it. Measure
the wall height again from the floor to the bottom rim of the
wheel.
Lets say the tire height is 5 inches unloaded and 4.5 inches loaded at the
full maximum load rating of the tire of 1500lbs at 40 psi, then leave it
there. This is the maximum deflection you want on a tire of 5 - 4.5 = 0.5
inch.
If the deflection is greater then 0.5 inch, then a higher load rating at a
higher PSI tire is needed.
If its reads less than 3/8 inch difference between the two readings, than
lower the pressure until you get a deflection between 3/8 to 1/2 inch.
You can also check the correct air pressure by the ratio of the maximum load
rating to the actual load rating:
(1000lbs x 40psi)/1500lbs = 26.6 psi
I find if you used this ratio method, the deflection rate is too high. I
think the manufactures want the tires to wear out faster by the increase
heating at the higher deflection rate.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 11:53 AM
Subject: Tire Pressure
> Ok, I have my vehicle weighed, now how do I determine what pressure to
> use.
>
> When racing I took the car out to a skid pad and got the tires hot and
> checked the temps with a pyrometer.
> Is there an easier way?
>
> I found a formula, but came up with weird numbers.
>
> http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=15003&page=1
> http://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=1148
>
> which I stuck in a script
> http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/tires.html
>
> http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/pressure.php //look at code
>
> I just don't get reasonable numbers.
> Does anyone have more info on this ?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 09:01:05 -0500, Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Where can one find a reliable (and inexpensive) electric/power
>meter? I'm looking for a plug-through, re-settable device for
>recording KWH usage...
>
>Large thanks...
Do you use Google? Try "watthour meter" and "electric power meter".
If you use them, Sleazebay also usually has a host of meters.
There are millions of used electric power meters for sale on the
surplus market. Usually for under $30. For a number of reasons, the
mechanical type is desirable over the electronic version. To make it
plug-through, arrange it like this:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/files/misc/power%20meter/
You don't need to reset the meter. Simply write the start time and
date and the start reading on the face of the meter with a Sharpie or
grease pencil. If you insist on resetting, get the dial, as opposed
to the cyclo or "odometer" type meter. You can remove the glass jar
and carefully turn the pointers on their shafts back to zero. More
trouble than it's worth, IMO.
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 10:32:10 -0400, "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Hi Wayne;
>
> I got a cheepo Chinesy Kil A Watt thing on line, surfed around or maybe
>somebody on the List pointed it out. It reads amps, volts HZ and kwh, a bit
>of over kill, but I hasve used it to read KWH charging.NOT for KWH driving.I
>paid about 29 bux as I remenber.
The KAW resets upon every power glitch. Unless you do like me and
modify them for battery backup, not really very suitable for long term
measurement.
If you want that kind of meter then I recommend the Watts Up. Just a
couple of hours ago I ordered another Watts Up Pro ES for my fleet of
meters from this vendor:
http://cableorganizer.com/electricity-power-meter/
I spent a couple of hours trying to beat their prices and couldn't.
Even the lowest cost one has non-volatile memory. The Pro is good for
long term trends, such as looking at the duty cycle of a refrigerator.
The ES is great for high detail recording of highly variable loads and
where fine resolution measurements are needed. The Pro can do that if
attached to a computer running the optional real time software but
it's more convenient to store the data in the ES and dump it later.
Two of the services I offer are power quality analysis and energy
audits. I own quite a few of these for point-of-use measurements of
appliances. I use a conventional power company meter for things where
the load is likely to be uniformly cyclic. I use this type of meter
where the load can vary from day to day according to use. A
refrigerator, for example. All my instruments are NIST-traceable
calibrated against my lab standard. I've found the Watts Up units to
be quite accurate and stable.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thought you might be interested. No new info in the review.
http://www.loe.org/shows/shows.htm?programID=06-P13-00017
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now I need to figure out a way to secure this mess to the battery
without it vibrating apart. The potting compound will take 48 hours to
cure, and I don't think I want to make these a part of the batteries.
I'd say just pot them right to the batterys. Why would you want to take
them off?
I guess; the potting compound is like goo; I could just glop it on the
lamp/resistor bit. I assume it will stick to the battery like glue?. Or
I could use normal epoxy.
Still, this is tedious. I got about 35 of them assembled; 15 more to go.
It looks like two batteries will not get the regs; they are on the wings
between 7 and 5 batteries, and I don't think the big lugs will fit
without causing el ground fault.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
VERY cool device, I think I have to order an ES for the lab at work. :-)
Mark Grasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Power/Electric Meter
On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 10:32:10 -0400, "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Hi Wayne;
I got a cheepo Chinesy Kil A Watt thing on line, surfed around or maybe
somebody on the List pointed it out. It reads amps, volts HZ and kwh, a
bit
of over kill, but I hasve used it to read KWH charging.NOT for KWH
driving.I
paid about 29 bux as I remenber.
The KAW resets upon every power glitch. Unless you do like me and
modify them for battery backup, not really very suitable for long term
measurement.
If you want that kind of meter then I recommend the Watts Up. Just a
couple of hours ago I ordered another Watts Up Pro ES for my fleet of
meters from this vendor:
http://cableorganizer.com/electricity-power-meter/
I spent a couple of hours trying to beat their prices and couldn't.
Even the lowest cost one has non-volatile memory. The Pro is good for
long term trends, such as looking at the duty cycle of a refrigerator.
The ES is great for high detail recording of highly variable loads and
where fine resolution measurements are needed. The Pro can do that if
attached to a computer running the optional real time software but
it's more convenient to store the data in the ES and dump it later.
Two of the services I offer are power quality analysis and energy
audits. I own quite a few of these for point-of-use measurements of
appliances. I use a conventional power company meter for things where
the load is likely to be uniformly cyclic. I use this type of meter
where the load can vary from day to day according to use. A
refrigerator, for example. All my instruments are NIST-traceable
calibrated against my lab standard. I've found the Watts Up units to
be quite accurate and stable.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Why would someone need a custom two speed? There is a solution readily
> available, at least for rear wheel drive vehicles. You can flip the
> GearVendors unit around and have a 1.28:1 low gear, and a 1:1 high
gear.
>
Yeah, if you are going for inexpensive, a custom one would be even
more than their *starting price* of $2400
(http://www.gearvendors.com/prices.html)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I went to the movies today 70mph on freeway there and 45mph on surface
streets home. It started hammering during acceleration and surgeing
during cruise which I assum is the pot box or connection, it is only
amonth orr two old, but I wil check it. Funny thing is it got
noticeably better milage, where it always takes me 3.4 kwh to do 7.3
miles or 460 wh/mile it did 6.2 to do 15.8 miles or 392wh/mile and it
wasn't cutting out hammering it was accelerating hammering.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow - this is truly an amazing meter.
Very heavy duty as the spec says that it will work up to 400 deg C.
(That is 752 deg F) So you can even measure the power consmption
inside your range at its hottest setting!
Unfortunately it is only good for use in the hottest of climates
as the lower end of its spec says 50 deg C minimum (122 deg F)
<Ahum> I do not think the plastic cord and LCD display would
survive even 200 deg F let alone 750.
Clearly a conversion error on the web page...
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 2:03 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Power/Electric Meter
On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 10:32:10 -0400, "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Hi Wayne;
>
> I got a cheepo Chinesy Kil A Watt thing on line, surfed around or maybe
>somebody on the List pointed it out. It reads amps, volts HZ and kwh, a bit
>of over kill, but I hasve used it to read KWH charging.NOT for KWH
driving.I
>paid about 29 bux as I remenber.
The KAW resets upon every power glitch. Unless you do like me and
modify them for battery backup, not really very suitable for long term
measurement.
If you want that kind of meter then I recommend the Watts Up. Just a
couple of hours ago I ordered another Watts Up Pro ES for my fleet of
meters from this vendor:
http://cableorganizer.com/electricity-power-meter/
I spent a couple of hours trying to beat their prices and couldn't.
Even the lowest cost one has non-volatile memory. The Pro is good for
long term trends, such as looking at the duty cycle of a refrigerator.
The ES is great for high detail recording of highly variable loads and
where fine resolution measurements are needed. The Pro can do that if
attached to a computer running the optional real time software but
it's more convenient to store the data in the ES and dump it later.
Two of the services I offer are power quality analysis and energy
audits. I own quite a few of these for point-of-use measurements of
appliances. I use a conventional power company meter for things where
the load is likely to be uniformly cyclic. I use this type of meter
where the load can vary from day to day according to use. A
refrigerator, for example. All my instruments are NIST-traceable
calibrated against my lab standard. I've found the Watts Up units to
be quite accurate and stable.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Death to All Spammers wrote:
> The description says "shaded pole" - now, if someone can tell me what
> that means...
A shaded pole motor is a type of induction motor, meant to run on single
phase AC. Generally rather cheap and low efficiency.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 09:43:37 -0500, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Jeff Shanab wrote:
>>
>> I have 480 3phase at work, man I would like to plug into that! but at
>> work I am there long enough to top off completely, it is at home I need
>> to speed things up.
>>
>> I like what was said about using forklift packs, what voltages do they
>> come in. better than submarine batteries,I had thought of that too,
>> because it is part of the local economy. available, serviceable, etc.
>
>Forklift packs are typically 24v, 36v, or 72v. They are actually a big
>steel box with individual 2v cells packed inside, so they can be built
>for other voltages. They tend to be very heavy, high amphour
>(500-2000ah), and built to last for a decade or more of daily deep
>discharges.
I've often wondered why someone hasn't tried a couple of 72 volt packs
in the bed of a pickup for EV power. One of the smaller size packs
would not be too heavy. These packs are pretty much bullet proof and
last forever and aren't all that expensive because of the high
production volume. I know a couple of places in this area where used
packs in good shape can be bought for almost nothing. These have been
removed from mil surplus forklifts that have been scrapped for parts.
I have a 48 volt pack that is going to my mountain cabin to replace
the generator for backup power. It tests out to better than 80%
capacity. Seems like I only paid $75 for it.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 15:23:58 -0000, "Death to All Spammers"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >If you were talking about me, I do have this available:
>> >
>> >http://www.evsource.com/tls_blowers.php
>> >
>> >It's not real cheap, but they're new and reliable.
>>
>> What kind of motor is that?
>>
>> John
>>
>
>The description says "shaded pole" - now, if someone can tell me what
>that means...
It means "wrong boilerplate" for this motor :-) A shaded pole motor
is a single phase AC motor that has one or more one turn shorted
windings embedded in the face of the stator next to the rotor. This
shorted winding acts as the secondary of a transformer and sets up its
own out-of-phase magnetic field, causing the necessary rotating field
to cause torque in the rotor.
If you've ever seen what we old timers call a "phonograph motor", one
winding offset from the rotor, then you've seen a shaded pole motor.
There will be one or two single turns of heavy copper wire in the
stator next to the rotor.
Google for the term to find a photo.
A shaded pole motor is obviously an AC-only motor. This fan must be
either a brushed motor or some sort of BLDC. That's why I asked
earlier what type of motor it is.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 11:48:22 -0500, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Danny Miller wrote:
>
>> Neato, but how many batteries can take 400 amp charge rates?
>
>Essentially any battery used in a road-going EV. Any battery that can
>deliver 400 amps can *charge* at 400 amps. The key point is that you can
>only apply this kind of charging current when the cells are well away
>from "full".
Yes, absolutely! The battery chemistry is symmetrical. Whatever rate
one can take it out, one can put it back in.
That's the basis of my Cordless Battery Charger, one hour charger.
It'll crank 250 amps into a 12 or 24 volt battery during the bulk
stage. (Unfortunately that doesn't last too long with a golf cart
battery because of the relatively high internal resistance - up to 50%
charge or thereabouts.)
The key is to keep the voltage below the bulk/absorption transition
voltage. Different battery makers quote different voltages so it's a
good idea to check before cramming :-)
This "gotta charge slow" is one of the great myths of Pb batteries
that so many manufacturers continue to spread. I understand why they
do - cramming in high current with a dumb charger that will exceed the
bulk/absorption voltage is a sure way to kill a battery, sometimes in
one charge. But smart chargers are everywhere these days - even
Wallyworld - so it's time to dispel that myth.
I've had a devil of a time doing that in the RV world. For those who
have listened (and either bought one of my CBCs or a medium speed
charger such as the Iota or Intellipower), the result has been very
satisfactory - charging the house pack in an hour or just a little
more.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stefan Peters wrote:
> Why would someone need a custom two speed?
Because the two speeds for an EV would be quite wide apart, like 2:1 or
more. The two-speed overdrives and gearboxes for most ICEs usually have
fairly close ratios.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Stefan Peters wrote:
> > Why would someone need a custom two speed?
>
> Because the two speeds for an EV would be quite wide apart, like 2:1 or
> more. The two-speed overdrives and gearboxes for most ICEs usually have
> fairly close ratios.
>
Considering a custom-made one might run several thousand dollars, it
would probably be cheaper to use an AC drive connected to the
differential, as well as more efficient and faster to get done.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
LOE today had a review of Who killed the elecrtic car & an interview with
Pete Sieger the folk singer.
http://www.loe.org/
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> something like McKee's Sundancer; a 1600 lbs 2-seat sports car...
>> Twin Etek motors, each driving a rear wheel separately via snowmobile
>> belt-type CVT, contactor controller. A dozen 6v golf cart batteries
>> for power... 36v golf cart charger. Everything here is simple, cheap,
>> and available.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Didn't I hear that they had stopped production on the Etek? I could
> only find one place that still advertised them and they want almost
> $900 ea. So that's $1800 for the pair.
<http://www.evparts.com> lists the Etek MT1214 for $325 each.
> I have no idea how much a CVT would cost that could handle both motors,
> I'm guessing a couple hundred though.
The plan was to have *two* CVTs, one for each motor, independently
driving each wheel. The Comet Torq-A-Verter CVT setup is about $150
each. They are rated at 8HP continuous duty; two should work fine for a
1600 lbs car.
> A contactor will cost about $75-$100.
No; you'd be using golf car size contactors that are more like $20 each.
Each motor is only pulling perhaps 200a peak. A 3-step controller with
forward/reverse takes about 6 contactors.
> An 8" ADC will set you back about $1300
That's four Eteks.
> an Alltrax 72V controller $650
Enoug for four contactor controllers.
> and a couple hundred for a two speed chain drive setup
Your forgot the differential. The twin CVTs replace it as well.
> My original query was why people seem so fascinated with jumping
> through hoops to get a CVT and somehow make it work. Several times
> I've seen people talking about building a super efficient EV, and
> then they go and spec a CVT. They seem to be working under the
> missimpression that it will have HIGHER efficiency than more mudane
> solutions.
In general, I agree with you. A CVT is not very efficient. Simply
replacing the transmission in an EV with a CVT is a step backwards in
efficiency.
But the CVT in *this* case is there to allow the tiny Etek motors to
provide adequate horsepower over a wide speed range without a
transmission, differential, or expensive controller. It's a special case
solution for a scratch-built car; not for the typical EV conversion.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> I guess; the potting compound is like goo; I could just glop it on
> the lamp/resistor bit. I assume it will stick to the battery like
> glue?
The potting isn't really all that sticky. I'll bet it won't stick all
that tightly to the battery. The case is polypropylene, and it is
difficult to glue to.
> Still, this is tedious. I got about 35 of them assembled; 15 more to go.
> It looks like two batteries will not get the regs; they are on the wings
> between 7 and 5 batteries, and I don't think the big lugs will fit
> without causing el ground fault.
You could just get a sheet of copper, "tin" it with solder (for
corrosion protection), and solder one lead of the zener to it. Bolt this
to ther terminal, with the copper trimmed fit.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can't imagine you have a loose connection, or you'd
have a melted terminal by the time you got home.
By hammering, are you saying erratic acceleration, or
knocking sounds, (ie, transmission hitting battery
rack)?
Best of success finding out what's going on...
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I went to the movies today 70mph on freeway there
> and 45mph on surface
> streets home. It started hammering during
> acceleration and surgeing
> during cruise which I assum is the pot box or
> connection, it is only
> amonth orr two old, but I wil check it. Funny thing
> is it got
> noticeably better milage, where it always takes me
> 3.4 kwh to do 7.3
> miles or 460 wh/mile it did 6.2 to do 15.8 miles or
> 392wh/mile and it
> wasn't cutting out hammering it was accelerating
> hammering.
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you need to do a bit more planning regarding the CVT. I have done a
bunch of testing of CVTs prior to making my choices for the EZE Sports bike.
You will likely have a problem balancing the load on any setup with 2
independent CVT. It is likely one CVT will start shifting ahead of the other
and the two will not shift at the same rate over the same rpm range.
The 8hp torq-a-verter is grossly inadequate for the Etek. I have a Tav-2 as
one of my test CVT. The belt is much too small for even my 400 lb motorcycle
with one etek. If you are looking at Comet products, I would recommend the
500/858 clutch or the 700 series. These are rated at 25hp and use a .92 to
1.0" kevlar belt. I am using the Comet 500/858 on the EZE.
Using a CVT designed for a gas engine presents some tuning problems.
Engagement speed is normally set on a Comet CVT at around 2400rpm. With an
electric motor, you want to engage at almost 0 rpm which is outside the design
spec of the clutch but can be done. It took many hours of testing to get a
reasonable setup for driver springs, driver weights, driven springs, belt
diameter etc.
I suggest getting a copy of Olav Aaen's book "Clutch Tuning Handbook". It
should be available at most snowmobile dealer that sell high performance
snowmobile parts. The book has some great information including details on
efficiency and how to make improvements for racing. You should note that the
efficiency of a CVT varies with the gearing ratio but is at it's highest when
the belt is at the same diameter on the driver and driven clutches. From the
graphs in the book, a properly tuned CVT has a peak efficiency of over 90% with
the lowest efficiency at the highest gear ratio (smallest belt diameter) around
83%.
Brushed Eteks are getting harder to find and have been going up in price.
The Mars brushless DC motor is available now but the lack of high output
controllers is limiting the potential of this motor.
EZESPORT
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
>> something like McKee's Sundancer; a 1600 lbs 2-seat sports car...
>> Twin Etek motors, each driving a rear wheel separately via snowmobile
>> belt-type CVT, contactor controller. A dozen 6v golf cart batteries
>> for power... 36v golf cart charger. Everything here is simple, cheap,
>> and available.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Didn't I hear that they had stopped production on the Etek? I could
> only find one place that still advertised them and they want almost
> $900 ea. So that's $1800 for the pair.
lists the Etek MT1214 for $325 each.
> I have no idea how much a CVT would cost that could handle both motors,
> I'm guessing a couple hundred though.
The plan was to have *two* CVTs, one for each motor, independently
driving each wheel. The Comet Torq-A-Verter CVT setup is about $150
each. They are rated at 8HP continuous duty; two should work fine for a
1600 lbs car.
> A contactor will cost about $75-$100.
No; you'd be using golf car size contactors that are more like $20 each.
Each motor is only pulling perhaps 200a peak. A 3-step controller with
forward/reverse takes about 6 contactors.
> An 8" ADC will set you back about $1300
That's four Eteks.
> an Alltrax 72V controller $650
Enoug for four contactor controllers.
> and a couple hundred for a two speed chain drive setup
Your forgot the differential. The twin CVTs replace it as well.
> My original query was why people seem so fascinated with jumping
> through hoops to get a CVT and somehow make it work. Several times
> I've seen people talking about building a super efficient EV, and
> then they go and spec a CVT. They seem to be working under the
> missimpression that it will have HIGHER efficiency than more mudane
> solutions.
In general, I agree with you. A CVT is not very efficient. Simply
replacing the transmission in an EV with a CVT is a step backwards in
efficiency.
But the CVT in *this* case is there to allow the tiny Etek motors to
provide adequate horsepower over a wide speed range without a
transmission, differential, or expensive controller. It's a special case
solution for a scratch-built car; not for the typical EV conversion.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2ยข/min or less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think this is a shaded pole motor.
We have plenty of competitor motors that run on 12Vdc
and they are all PM series brush type (Ametek also
makes thousands of these motors, previously known as
Prestolite). Shaded pole are typically 120Vac or
230Vac type, low cost, high volume, low efficiency
types.
The majoritory of low voltage BLDC motors are Ametek,
EMB or cheap chinese knock offs using the traditional
MC33035 or MC33033 hall based drives
http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC33035-D.PDF
or sensorless
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/ML/ML4425.pdf
There are other sensorless chips out there, but this
is the primary one used.
Rod
--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 15:23:58 -0000, "Death to All
> Spammers"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >> >If you were talking about me, I do have this
> available:
> >> >
> >> >http://www.evsource.com/tls_blowers.php
> >> >
> >> >It's not real cheap, but they're new and
> reliable.
> >>
> >> What kind of motor is that?
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >
> >The description says "shaded pole" - now, if
> someone can tell me what
> >that means...
>
> It means "wrong boilerplate" for this motor :-) A
> shaded pole motor
> is a single phase AC motor that has one or more one
> turn shorted
> windings embedded in the face of the stator next to
> the rotor. This
> shorted winding acts as the secondary of a
> transformer and sets up its
> own out-of-phase magnetic field, causing the
> necessary rotating field
> to cause torque in the rotor.
>
> If you've ever seen what we old timers call a
> "phonograph motor", one
> winding offset from the rotor, then you've seen a
> shaded pole motor.
> There will be one or two single turns of heavy
> copper wire in the
> stator next to the rotor.
>
> Google for the term to find a photo.
>
> A shaded pole motor is obviously an AC-only motor.
> This fan must be
> either a brushed motor or some sort of BLDC. That's
> why I asked
> earlier what type of motor it is.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Don't let your schooling interfere with your
> education-Mark Twain
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David,
Yes, it could be done, but I don't know how well it would work to use
the DAQ output of a Zilla to provide an in car display.
The main reason is that the serial port on the Zilla is used for
programming and config as well as output, but only one job at a time due
to its simple text based interface.
I've noticed that while the throttle is pressed, the serial menu doesn't
respond.
Now, there are four different DAQ modes, each sending a useful but
different set of data.
(see about 80% through
http://cafeelectric.com/products/zilla/Html/HB2Man.html)
So, you could make a digital dashboard that initialised itself by
telling the Zilla to output DAQ4, but it would have to wait for a
throttle off situation to change to one of the other DAQ modes, or to
put it back into DAQ4 if something went funny.
Doable, but potentially flaky.
Otmar, is the above correct about the throttle and the menu?
Is there any reason why you couldn't run the Zilla in DAQ4 mode
permanently?
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Ankers
> Sent: Sunday, 30 April 2006 5:00 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Zilla DAQ 4 mode questions or how to graph a race?
>
>
> Forgive the simple newbie question: Is it possible to get
> these stats and
> use them for real time in car display or is it only useful for logging
> purposes?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
>
> On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 09:43:37 -0500, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >>
> >> I have 480 3phase at work, man I would like to plug into that! but at
> >> work I am there long enough to top off completely, it is at home I need
> >> to speed things up.
> >>
> >> I like what was said about using forklift packs, what voltages do they
> >> come in. better than submarine batteries,I had thought of that too,
> >> because it is part of the local economy. available, serviceable, etc.
> >
> >Forklift packs are typically 24v, 36v, or 72v. They are actually a big
> >steel box with individual 2v cells packed inside, so they can be built
> >for other voltages. They tend to be very heavy, high amphour
> >(500-2000ah), and built to last for a decade or more of daily deep
> >discharges.
>
> I've often wondered why someone hasn't tried a couple of 72 volt packs
> in the bed of a pickup for EV power. One of the smaller size packs
> would not be too heavy. These packs are pretty much bullet proof and
> last forever and aren't all that expensive because of the high
> production volume. I know a couple of places in this area where used
> packs in good shape can be bought for almost nothing. These have been
> removed from mil surplus forklifts that have been scrapped for parts.
>
> I have a 48 volt pack that is going to my mountain cabin to replace
> the generator for backup power. It tests out to better than 80%
> capacity. Seems like I only paid $75 for it.
They are great for supplying high peak currents for brief times; like
the 1000 amps for 5 minutes a dump charger might need. The main drawback
is a high Peukert exponent. That's a fancy way of saying they only
deliver perhaps 1/3rd of their amphour capacity if discharged in an hour
(a typical discharge rate for on-road EVs).
Thus, a forklift pack would work great for an EV that is driven
relatively slowly over several hours. In fact, a lot like the way a fork
lift is driven! :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 18:49:02 -0700 (PDT), Rod Hower
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>The majoritory of low voltage BLDC motors are Ametek,
>EMB or cheap chinese knock offs using the traditional
>MC33035 or MC33033 hall based drives
>http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC33035-D.PDF
>or sensorless
>http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/ML/ML4425.pdf
>There are other sensorless chips out there, but this
>is the primary one used.
Thanks a million, Rod. I'd been meaning to ask you for some reference
material on sensorless BLDC designs.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Steven,
> I'm in a similar situation as you were (I assume)
> and Mark was: I'd like to make a Zilla Data Acq.
> system, but I currently don't have access to my zilla
> (I will in about 1.5 weeks). Any chance do you have a
> sample DAQ4 mode data file you wouldn't mind sending
> me?
Sure -- I'll send in an offlist email.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
