EV Digest 5438
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV Charging station
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: EV Charging station
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Sanden Electric Compressor - was DIY air-conditioning
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: EV Charging station
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: converting a gas mower to electric
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: EV Charging station
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV Charging station
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV Charging station
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV Charging station
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) EVAlbum Update
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Article 625
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV Charging station
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: EV Charging station
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV Charging station
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: EV Charging station
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV Charging station
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV Charging station
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EVAlbum Update
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Article 625
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) High Voltage Nationals
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Link to video of Who Killed the Electric Car
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: EV Charging station
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Reflections on a Toyota Conversion to Plug-In-Hybrid
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: High Voltage Nationals
by john bart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Article 625
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Nickel Cadmium batteries
by john bart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 06:02:29PM -0500, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Nick Austin wrote:
>
> >Instead of doing something strange like this, why not just go with AVcon?
>
> The RV market is well established.
Granted.
Most of the places I want to go are not equipped for RV shore power :(
it still does not provide all the features that seem like they should be a
minimum for safe and reliable EV charging.
If we are trying to build an infrastructure for EV charging, then we should try
to do it right.
> Will AVcon still be around in 5 years?
This is the best argument against AVcon I've heard. I'm not sure. Does anybody
have any info on the health of the Avcon Corporation?
I've bought stuff from them as recently as 1 month ago, seems like they
are a small lightweight operation that does more then just AVcon sales
and service.
The market will be small unless we get Walmart or somebody to sign up for it.
Seems like that is highly unlikely though.
I guess we have some say in this :)
>
> http://www.rvstore.com/catalog/rv-ntp.asp?page=481
>
> There are huge RV stores all over the place to buy this stuff locally.
Good point.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
> Folks, this has been discussed to death in the past. Just search the
> archives for Article 625.
Mike has a good point. Mike Thompson provides a decent summary of
Article 625 (it may be out-dated now):
<http://www.madkatz.com/ev/nec1999Article625.html>
Although the IEC 309 connector system satisfies most of the requirements
of Article 625, there are a couple which it doesn't:
625-09(b) "Noninterchangeability": this clause basically says that the
connector must be custom made for EVs because it cannot be
interchangeable with a connector used for any non-EV charging purpose.
625-19 "Automatic Denergisation of Cable": the Avcon supposedly
satisfies this clause due to the way to rotates the contacts of the
paddle to mate with those of the receptacle; strain on the cable will
(in theory) rotate the paddle such that the contacts un-mate. Of
course, this system is easily defeated if the charge cord is hooked
under a bumper, etc. such that damaging strain can be applied to the
cord between the vehicle and charging station without rotating the
paddle in the receptacle. However, I don't see any obvious way of
making an IEC 309 connector system satisfy this requirement.
> If you want to talk a business into hosting a designated charging
> station and you want to use common inexpensive connectors, then
> either settle for Level 1 charging (20 amps, 120 Volts), or pay the
> piper and use one of the two "approved" solutions, Avcon or Inductive
> Paddle.
In actuality the cost premium for the Avcon is actually minimal. If
their online prices can be trusted, the inlet is about $175 (including
pilot signal circitry), which is at most $50 over the cost of a 60A IEC
309 plug. The charging station is under $400, which actually seems
fairly reasonable if compared to the cost of a weatherproof 14-50
receptacle with appropriately rated GFCI breaker.
My biggest reservation with the Avcon system is simply that it is made
by only one company. However, I am reluctantly forced to agree that if
one were going to install a public EV charging station, the Avcon is
probably the way to go.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Grigg. John wrote:
Will we are on the topic of Sanden Compressors; I have acquired a
Electric Sanden unit(new in box) originally from the electric Ford
Ranger. It came with the motor controller, computer module, electrical
schematic, and compressor unit.
http://www.sanden.com/products/electric.html
My only issue is finding the right plumbing for it and how-to plumb it.
Does anyone have any diagrams on this unit? I have already tried to
contact Sanden but they never return my calls.
That looks a lot like it. I'd say take this to your local friendly AC
shop and ask them for some advice. Paying them for the advice is also a
good idea :-)
Seriously, you need lines and hoses to connect that, your evaporator,
condenser, and dryer. Having it powered by 300 volts is most of the battle.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Austin wrote:
> If you have a car that can not do AVcon, bring an
> adapter box.
>
> You can get an adapter for AVcon to a twist lock 30 from the EAA.
Of course, using such an adapter technically violates Article 625 ;^>
Since the pilot signal is generated by the receptacle in the adapter
box, the outlet it provides will be live even when not connected to the
vehicle's charger, and the contacts on the connectors between the
adapter and EV can be exposed/accessed while live... If you're going to
violate Article 625 anyway, why spend that much money doing so? ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike,
How about: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/type/TCMW
-Jerry
http://www.evconvert.com/
On May 2, 2006, at 3:54 PM, Michael S Briggs wrote:
Hello,
New to the list (actually, I was on the EV list about 8 years ago,
considered an EV conversion for a while. Instead, my wife and I run
both
of our cars (VW TDIs) on biodiesel that I make from waste vegetable
oil
from local restaurants. I'm not looking at converting a *car* to
electric - I want to convert a riding lawnmower.
I *hate* mowing our lawn with a gas mower. I had a plug-in push
electric mower for a while, but with the size of our lawn and the
hassling with cords, it was taking me around 6-8 hours to mow the
lawn. I have an old gas mower that I bought from a neighbor when he
was moving, and I'd like to convert it to electric. I'm thinking I
should be able to just take the parts out of an old electric golf
cart (once I find a cheap one) and transfer to the mower, probably
putting in a smaller motor for powering the actual motor blades
separately (with a switch to turn that motor on/off).
I don't need the full range that a golf cart normally has, and
don't need to go as fast, so I'm thinking about using the same
motor and controller as a golf cart, just with fewer batteries (to
reduce the weight, and get by with lower voltage and battery
capacity). Seems like that could be cheaper than buying the
individual components.
Has anyone else done this?
Thanks,
Mike
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Michael S. Briggs
UNH Physics Department
(603) 862-2828
---------------------------------------------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Even if these are better, right now I am much more likely to encounter
> and have access to standard 30 and 50 amp range and dryer outlets.
The discussion isn't about what you are most likely to encounter; if it
were, the ubiquitous NEMA 5-15 (15A 120VAC) trumps all others ;^>
The discussion is about what sort of connector to standardise on for EV
charging stations in particular, bearing in mind the peculiar and
perverse requirements NEC Article 625 places on power sources whose
specific purpose is to allow charging of an on-road EV (motorcycles
excepted, for unknown reasons). BTW, this applies to an outlet you
might install in your carport, etc. specifically for plugging in your EV
(though the powers that be might have difficulty proving that the 14-50
wasn't actually for something else, even if they wanted to, you might
still have insurance hassles should you suffer a house/garage fire and
they discover you had an EV charging from a non-compliant outlet at the
time...)
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just snipped the wires on my EV's AVCON inlet, pulling it and
replacing it with the RV standard, bringing in 50 amps of 240/120v
"shore power".
On my low budget, the AVCON home-based charge stations are too expensive
and the public charge stations are too distant (my state Florida has
*none*, though Georgia, CA, AZ and NM has some--) (There was just a post
about some stations being removed on Earth Day).
Of course, my EV is also an RV, and I actually want the 4-wire 3-pole
connector, because I will be using neutral when I use shore power, and I
will be parking in RV parks, etc.
There are many more RV parks than there are AVCON charge stations.
I now have a used AVCON inlet for trade or sale, if anybody in AZ, NM,
CA, or GA is interested :-)
Nick Austin wrote:
On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 11:18:43AM -0700, Roger Stockton wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
Not "almost". It rules out EVERY existing connector except
the Avcon and Magnecharge systems.
Are you sure? The IEC 309 male plug has completely shrouded pins so
that they are inaccessible as they are inserted into the female socket.
Instead of doing something strange like this, why not just go with AVcon?
It seems like we are trying to solve a problem that does not exist. Just
install AVcon wherever you want a Level II or possible level III charing
solution. If you have a car that can not do AVcon, bring an adapter box.
You can get an adapter for AVcon to a twist lock 30 from the EAA.
You also get auto resetting circuit breakers, GFCI, etc, etc.
If we install something for charging EVs, a standard would be nice. If we are
choosing a standard now, AVcon seems like a pretty good choice right?
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As the user of an EV, I would carry the 3 balde and live with that, but
if I am providing a chargeing kiosk, it just won't do. Besides safety,
it will wear out to quick. and is subject to abuse. But the IEC 309 is
looking good. I will check to see just how avail they really are, I
think west marine stocks them. People with avcons will make an adapter,
I will have a twistlock adapter and a 3prong because twist lock is at
work, it is cheap, and it lasts ok.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
EV charging stations in particular,
whose specific purpose is to allow charging of an on-road EV
That is the tough sell. These really should be multi purpose outlets.
An RV, an EV, power tools, something else, anything else? The more
the better.
I can see the reluctance in the past of not being to excited to
install Avcon stations. Considering "back then", what was going to
use them at the time? EV1's and RAV4's?
Is NEC Article 625 really that set in stone? How hard would it be to
change it to make it not so limiting, or make it allow RV connectors?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike posted a brief synopsis this morning about the new EVAlbum and
judging from traffic and the Recent Updates page quite a few of you
have started to put it through its paces.
Here's a wordy-Jerry description of what you'll find in the new
version of the EVAlbum.
___Owner Accounts________
- register once, manage all of your EVs
- it geocodes your address (US only, sorry) to Latitude/Longitude.
You can put in your own lat/lon, w/instructions on how to get them
- decide if you want your email shown
(shown using a dynamic image to prevent spammers)
- password changing & lost password function
___User Vehicles________
You can now manage all of the information about your EV
and update it as you go along
- Images
* upload your own images
* manage which image has "top spot"
* add title and description
(shown in mouse-over tooltips and in pop-up window)
* we auto-size incoming images and support sizes
up to 500K. Image page has links to some good
(free) image tools should you need to shrink
your images down or touch them up.
- Data fields:
* watt hrs/mile w/speed & description
* EV miles: start, current, total
* popup lists to choose common components
+ helps reduce spelling errors
+ makes it so we can categorize EVs by components
+ other possible uses in the future?
___Search Functionality__________
- Most recent: evs that have been added or updated by owner (shown
on Map)
- Type/Make: like the hotlinks on old evalbum site, blend of makes
and types
- Components: break down of existing EVs by common components:
* Battery Brand
* Battery Type
* Charger Brand
* Controller Brand
* DC to DC Brand
* Motor Brand
* Motor Type
- Location: see EVs near you or anywhere in the world ordered
geographically and shown on a google map
- In Progress: who's working on an EV conversion now
- wild card search: we are planning to use specialized google
page for this soon. In the meantime use:
http://google.com/search?as_sitesearch=austinev.org
and type your search before the "site" text
- results pages let you navigate to the Next or Previous page
___EV Displays___________
- all of the new features and data are shown with an EV, but only
when there is data. Everything is dynamically generated, so when
you update your EV odometer readings it updates your main page too.
- we try to show units in miles/kilometers or lbs/kilograms wherever
data is numeric and known (entry is as miles/lbs)
- retired or sold EVs are now marked as such, so let Mike know when
your
EV has moved on
- images are higher quality. We automatically make the thumbnails
(small images) and when you click one a full sized image window
pops up
with title and description text. Clicking anywhere in window
dismisses
it.
- popup map with depicting an "approximate" location (hint: double
click
the popup map to see latitude/longitude in title bar, navigate to
your
town/country/island to find it's lat/lon)
___Mike Tools___________
- Mike now has a set of tools so he can quickly review and post new
EVs, along with retiring old EVs or moving them along to new owners
- He also has the ability (although not as user friendly) to maintain
all of the ancillary data to support the site: makes, brands,
types, etc..
- He can also zap/fix your record/password if all else fails
___Technobabble_____________
- old links: we've written this so that all of your old EVAlbum links
should continue to work. If this is not the case please let us
know.
(send the offending link/page of course)
- RSS feeds: you can subscribe to the "Most Recent" EVs page:
http://evalbum.com/latest/rss
Firefox has built in "newsreader" software (http://getfirefox.com/)
as does Safari for the Mac. There are many dedicated readers out:
http://blogspace.com/rss/readers
Basically RSS is a way to "subscribe" to a page (i.e. http://
www.evconvert.com/rss)
and then it goes out and checks from time to time to see if
there's something
new. In this way all of your new content is gathered and
presented for you
automatically. More info:
http://channels.lockergnome.com/rss/resources/
- Future feature creep...things we will be doing in the future
(I have to work on my own EV for a while first...)
* Owner Bio Page - a page about you with your current information
(location, email image, map), maybe a mug shot and short
background,
if you care to share, and a list of all your EVs with small
images.
* More ways to slice & dice the data - ideas are welcome but we
are working
with a lot of freeform data, so not all permeations are possible.
* Integrated google search, to cover the more "free-form" text
searches across
all of the data and site.
* control over image ordering on-page (thanks Bruce!)
* BUGS! yeah, probably some more of those and Mike is still
touching up
some of the data
http://www.evalbum.com/
Hopefully this means less tedious work for Mike and more flexibility
for everyone.
If you have questions, want to report a bug, or have feature
suggestions please feel free to email me directly off-list.
Enjoy!
-Jerry
p.s another wordy-Jerry write-up with a bit of background:
http://www.evconvert.com/article/evalbum
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was reading the NEC article 625 and didn't see the word avcon listed
anywhere.
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/nec1999Article625.html
Is this the most daunting paragraph to overcome?
(b) Noninterchangeability. The electric vehicle coupler
shall have a configuration that is noninterchangeable with
wiring devices in other electrical systems. Nongrounding-
type electric vehicle couplers shall not be interchangeable
with grounding-type electric vehicle couplers.
or
625-18. Interlock. Electric vehicle supply equipment shall
be provided with an interlock that de-energizes the electric
vehicle connector and its cable whenever the electric connec-
tor is uncoupled from the electric vehicle.....
If we are powering a charger, the pack won't backfeed thru it.
It requies switching, but the pack ground feeds through on a pfc.
Will this count? A contactor for AC can be relativly small.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
> Although the IEC 309 connector system satisfies most of the
> requirements of Article 625, there are a couple which it doesn't:
>
> 625-09(b) "Noninterchangeability"...
> 625-19 "Automatic Denergisation of Cable"...
Agreed. We must accept that Article 625 was deliberately written to
*exclude* all existing charging systems. The goal was to create a new,
proprietary standard. For anything over 120vac 20amp charging, the Avcon
and Magnecharger are the only 'authorized' way to meet Article 625. The
Magnecharger is no longer available; so the Avcon is all we've got.
> My biggest reservation with the Avcon system is simply that it is made
> by only one company.
That's my worry, too. The Avcon was created for the auto company EVs.
They are gone, so Avcon has no customers. I suspect they are just
selling leftover inventory, and when they're gone, that's it! Some
"standard"!
Also, I have noted that interest in EVs runs in 10-20 year boom-bust
cycles. The was a big peak in the early 1960's, then nothing in the
early 1970's. A big peak in the late 1970's, and a collapse in the
1980's. Then the most recent peak in the late 1990's, and today we are
in another dead period.
During each boom cycle, the proponents will IGNORE all existing
technology as irrelevent and obsolete, and invent everything all over
again. So the Avcon is doomed; it will be ignored by the next wave of EV
interest, to be replaced by the "next great thing", whatever that will
be.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hum,
Not sure that AVCON is the only one.
I have here an Anderson-style connector (160Amp)
which has two tiny extra contacts in between the
two large contacts.
This can easily be used to make an energising circuit
for the two big contacts (only needs a contactor).
Would this satisfy Art 625?
I'll post a picture soon, neet to take a photo first.
REgards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 6:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV Charging station
Roger Stockton wrote:
> Although the IEC 309 connector system satisfies most of the
> requirements of Article 625, there are a couple which it doesn't:
>
> 625-09(b) "Noninterchangeability"...
> 625-19 "Automatic Denergisation of Cable"...
Agreed. We must accept that Article 625 was deliberately written to
*exclude* all existing charging systems. The goal was to create a new,
proprietary standard. For anything over 120vac 20amp charging, the Avcon
and Magnecharger are the only 'authorized' way to meet Article 625. The
Magnecharger is no longer available; so the Avcon is all we've got.
> My biggest reservation with the Avcon system is simply that it is made
> by only one company.
That's my worry, too. The Avcon was created for the auto company EVs.
They are gone, so Avcon has no customers. I suspect they are just
selling leftover inventory, and when they're gone, that's it! Some
"standard"!
Also, I have noted that interest in EVs runs in 10-20 year boom-bust
cycles. The was a big peak in the early 1960's, then nothing in the
early 1970's. A big peak in the late 1970's, and a collapse in the
1980's. Then the most recent peak in the late 1990's, and today we are
in another dead period.
During each boom cycle, the proponents will IGNORE all existing
technology as irrelevent and obsolete, and invent everything all over
again. So the Avcon is doomed; it will be ignored by the next wave of EV
interest, to be replaced by the "next great thing", whatever that will
be.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 08:38:21PM -0400, Meta Bus wrote:
> I just snipped the wires on my EV's AVCON inlet, pulling it and
> replacing it with the RV standard, bringing in 50 amps of 240/120v
> "shore power".
>
> On my low budget, the AVCON home-based charge stations are too expensive
AVcon heads are $380. This is for a GFCI, auto resetting breaker, safe
breakaway setup.
Seems like a good deal.
> and the public charge stations are too distant (my state Florida has
> *none*, though Georgia, CA, AZ and NM has some--) (There was just a post
> about some stations being removed on Earth Day).
>
> Of course, my EV is also an RV, and I actually want the 4-wire 3-pole
> connector, because I will be using neutral when I use shore power, and I
> will be parking in RV parks, etc.
That makes more sense.
This is a much better reason then cost.
You can still use a transformer to get your 110 RV power, but if you really
have an RV, then you're better off going to an RV park :-)
> There are many more RV parks than there are AVCON charge stations.
This is true. But I don't have an RV. And I don't tend to drive to RV parks.
>
> I now have a used AVCON inlet for trade or sale, if anybody in AZ, NM,
> CA, or GA is interested :-)
But they are so cheap to buy new. :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Not sure that AVCON is the only one.
>
> I have here an Anderson-style connector (160Amp)
> which has two tiny extra contacts in between the
> two large contacts.
Sounds like the SBE-160:
<http://www.andersonpower.com/products/pdf/DS-SBE160.pdf>
I don't know about "tiny"; it appears to use the same 10A-rated
PowerPole auxiliary contacts as the SBX-175 I use on my load banks:
<http://www.andersonpower.com/products/pdf/DS-SBX175.pdf>
And has the same 25lb insertion force... mating/unmating an SBX-175 is
surprisingly more difficult than a comparably rated SB-175.
> This can easily be used to make an energising circuit
> for the two big contacts (only needs a contactor).
>
> Would this satisfy Art 625?
An energising circuit is only part of the NEC 625 requirements. I think
the killer is the "noninteroperability" clause which specifically
prohibits the use of any connector that is used for any other purpose
than EV charging.
With its 25lb insertion force, I think it would take a very skookum cord
and strain reliefs to make a charge cord that would survive the strain
required to safely unmate the Anderson connector form the vehicle.
However... One doesn't need a 160 or 175A rated connector for this...
Perhaps one could build a multi-pole connector based on Anderson's
PowerPole contacts that would satisfy NEC 625? As long as one comes up
with an arrangement of contacts that is not used (known to be used?)
elsewhere so that it is specific to EV charging, this connector could
incorporate 60A rated main contacts with make-first/break-last ground
contact and pilot signal/interlock contacts, and it would be much more
easily separated from the receptacle by pulling on the cord.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Then the most recent peak in the late 1990's, and today we are
> in another dead period.
>
Maybe the price of oil will push us back towards another boom cycle. Yesterday
Sam Bodman, the
United States Secretary Of Energy said we can expect high gas prices for the
next two to three
years. That should be enough to swing the pendulum the other way.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 05:35:22PM -0700, Roger Stockton wrote:
> Nick Austin wrote:
>
> > If you have a car that can not do AVcon, bring an
> > adapter box.
> >
> > You can get an adapter for AVcon to a twist lock 30 from the EAA.
>
> Of course, using such an adapter technically violates Article 625 ;^>
Sure, it's impossible to charge a car that does not have an AVcon or
Magnicharge connector built in, and be up to standard.
> Since the pilot signal is generated by the receptacle in the adapter
> box, the outlet it provides will be live even when not connected to the
> vehicle's charger, and the contacts on the connectors between the
> adapter and EV can be exposed/accessed while live...
All true.
Welcome back to dangerous standard outlet land :)
If you drive away with the cable connected, you may have hot wires laying on
the ground. If you have a ground fault, you might have a +240 to ground live
chassis. If you over current the source, you could trip a breaker deep in a
breaker box you can never get to.
These are the prices you pay for a simple plug. :)
> If you're going to violate Article 625 anyway, why spend that much money
> doing so? ;^>
You're safer if you violate it in this way.
I'm sure the judge would be impressed with this argument :)
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mike posted a brief synopsis this morning about the
> new EVAlbum and
> judging from traffic and the Recent Updates page
> quite a few of you
> have started to put it through its paces.
Snip!
Excellent job on the new format. I congratulate Mike
and Jerry in making this an excellent resource in
researching EV's and seeing what's available in the
WWW.EVworld.
I expecially like the 'by location' feature. I could
quickly browse the limited EV's located in Ohio and
the people associated with their efforts.
Thanks for all of your hard work!!!
Rod
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/405
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/265
and my Fiero that was sold via 'cold sales call' do
to the posting at the album
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/264
and James next EV project taken at my house,
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/643
and the TEVan I bought from Mike,
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/8
that is currently owned by Nick Austin.
I also have a couple of BLDC powered gocarts that I'll
post soon,
http://www.qsl.net/w8rnh/gocart/gocart4.jpg
Yep, lots of wiring and battery work to do on those!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> I was reading the NEC article 625 and didn't see the word avcon listed
> anywhere.
Of course not; the Avcon is just one (of the field of two ;^) connector
system that has been designed to satisfy the requirements of article
625.
> Is this the most daunting paragraph to overcome?
>
> (b) Noninterchangeability. The electric vehicle coupler
> shall have a configuration that is noninterchangeable with
> wiring devices in other electrical systems.
It is definitely near the top of the list. By definition, any
electrical connector you can buy off the shelf that is not part of an
NEC 625 listed charging system, must be used in non-EV charging systems
and is therefore not permitted.
Basically this paragraph limits the connector you may use between the
charging station and any on-road EV but a motorcycle.
> 625-18. Interlock. Electric vehicle supply equipment shall
> be provided with an interlock that de-energizes the electric
> vehicle connector and its cable whenever the electric connec-
> tor is uncoupled from the electric vehicle.....
Na; there are all sorts of ways to achieve this. Even some old Lester
charger setups achieved this by using a multipin (4 or 6 pin) Anderson
PowerPole connector that carried handshaking/interlock signals between
the charger and car such that the charger's output was only energised
when connected to the EV. I think even the 12V interlock signal from
the car was interlocked by a jumper in the charger or its connector such
that even the 12V interlock signal was absent from the EV charge
receptacle until the charger was plugged in.
> If we are powering a charger, the pack won't backfeed thru it.
> It requies switching, but the pack ground feeds through on a pfc.
> Will this count? A contactor for AC can be relativly small.
Problem is that when you install a charging station, you don't know what
might be connected to it. There is nothing to prevent me from plugging
your charge station into the output of my inverter and backfeeding the
grid, unless you heed Article 625 and include some means of preventing
this inside oyur charging station. Notice that 625 specifically states
that vehicle-to-grid (V2G) operation must be prohibited... I think this
clause may simply require some means of disconnecting the charging
station from the grid when the grid power goes away.
These other paragraphs define the behaviours that other apsects of your
charging station must meet (after you get the basic connector issue
sorted out).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just wondering who else is bringing EV's.
The Fox Valley EAA has scant information,
http://www.fveaa.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=46
They just list these,
* John Wayland and his White Zombie.
* BYU with their EV 1 sport compact capacitor
powered drag car
* Darin Gilbert with his 48 volt motorcycle
* Bill Dube' with his high voltage motorcycle
I thought Aggrevated Battery was planning on showing
up?
I won't be bringing any EV's unfortunately, just my
energizer younger kids, Kyle 9 and Danielle 11 (unless
the wife can get out of a previous commitment).
The address at the track, 500 speedway blvd
http://www.chicagolandspeedway.com/cgi-bin/r.cgi/cls_directions.html?SESSION=VEUYKmKgv&N=
doesn't come up on www.mapquest.com,
but they do have directions at the link above.
Where are people staying? I still need to book a
hotel.
Thanks,
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nikki wrote:
Does anyone know if this film is showing in the UK?
As far as I can tell; no..(I can't see it either)
http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=49582709
After they show it in 5 cities; then what?
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=whokilledtheelectriccar.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Austin wrote:
> Sure, it's impossible to charge a car that does not have an AVcon or
> Magnicharge connector built in, and be up to standard.
I don't believe this is correct; NEC 625 applies to the charging station
(the "electric vehicle supply equipment"), not to the vehicle itself.
It also appears that "electric vehicle supply equipment" is defined as
those bits "installed specifically for the purpose of delivering energy
from the premises wiring to the electric vehicle".
This may mean that as long as the outlet you install is not
"specifically" for the purpose of delivering energy to an electric
vehicle, you can charge from any outlet you like.
Closely reading the definitions at the top of the 625 summary actually
leads me to suspect that 625 very narrowly defines the charge connection
to be of the arrangement where the charging station provides a cord that
connects to the EV via a vehicle mounted inlet, and that it might be
possible to circumvent it by having the EV equipped with a permanently
attached charge cord that plugs into a charging station
outlet/receptacle. Might want to run that by a lawyer before basing a
challenge to 625 on it though... ;^>
> If you drive away with the cable connected, you may have hot
> wires laying on the ground. If you have a ground fault, you
> might have a +240 to ground live chassis. If you over current
> the source, you could trip a breaker deep in a breaker box
> you can never get to.
>
> These are the prices you pay for a simple plug. :)
Just ask Bruce P to recount some of the prices you pay for the
not-so-simple Avcon plug ;^>
There is nothing to prevent having a GFCI protected ordinary outlet;
this is not exclusive to Avcon. Having an auto-resetting breaker that
won't let you charge because your charger's PF is poor doesn't help you
at all (and I think it may require you to disconnect/reconnect the
vehicle to reset the breaker anyway, so much for auto reset). Any
ordinary outlet box that includes an accessible breaker is just as
easily reset and useful (more so even if it is less sensitive to low PF
chargers than the Avcon).
> > If you're going to violate Article 625 anyway, why spend
> > that much money doing so? ;^>
>
> You're safer if you violate it in this way.
You're not any safer than had you simply included a GFCI in your charge
cord, or in the supply to your simple outlet. The adapter box defeats
the safety offered by the Avcon pilot signal such that you have acess to
a simple always-live but GFCI protected outlet...
I suppose my point is that if you are going to install Avcon charging
stations knowing that people are going to just plug in an adapter box an
convert it to a simple outlet anyway, you might as well just install a
cheaper RV shore power station (with GFCI breaker), label it as an RV
parking spot and then let EVers use it to charge. No point forcing
everyone to buy (relatively) expensive Avcon adapters just so your
charging station can meet the letter of 625 while knowningly violating
its intent; just install a non-EV charging outlet that Evers can quite
conveniently use! ;^>
(I know this won't work for Jeff's goal of actually installing EV
charging stations at local businesses; he really does need to install
proper approved stations.)
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steven Lough wrote:
Alec Fisken from
the City of Seattle, and Mr. Rich Feldman from the Apollo Alliance
stopped by, and informed us that The Alliance would like to see the car
at a very important conference being held at the Microsoft Campus, the
first week in June.
You should make every attempt to make sure the car is there for this.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm thinking of going, not with an EV but at least attending the event. I live
about one hour away from route 66 raceway.
Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Just wondering who else is bringing EV's.
The Fox Valley EAA has scant information,
http://www.fveaa.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=46
They just list these,
* John Wayland and his White Zombie.
* BYU with their EV 1 sport compact capacitor
powered drag car
* Darin Gilbert with his 48 volt motorcycle
* Bill Dube' with his high voltage motorcycle
I thought Aggrevated Battery was planning on showing
up?
I won't be bringing any EV's unfortunately, just my
energizer younger kids, Kyle 9 and Danielle 11 (unless
the wife can get out of a previous commitment).
The address at the track, 500 speedway blvd
http://www.chicagolandspeedway.com/cgi-bin/r.cgi/cls_directions.html?SESSION=VEUYKmKgv&N=
doesn't come up on www.mapquest.com,
but they do have directions at the link above.
Where are people staying? I still need to book a
hotel.
Thanks,
Rod
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jeff,
The interlock for a EV, may accomplish several things. First, it prevent
arcing of the AC while plugging in if the charger is left on provide a
explosion proof device in a hydrogen venting area.
The EV may have a AC magnetic contactor on board, or a AC magnetic contactor
may be in a power receptacle.
The on board AC magnetic contactor also provides a additional 12 VDC
ignition interlock provide a normally close power pole that is added to the
contactor, so you do not run off with the power cord attach.
A on board ground detection device can also be use to shut down this AC
contactor while charging if there is too much battery to frame voltage
tracking.
The batteries and battery charger has to be completely isolated from the
frame of the EV for the safety devices to work.
My EV came with a very large Power Anderson ground power type of plug and
receptacle normally used for aircraft starting. It consist of 6 large pins
that can accept 4/0 wire and 4 control pins.
It can either plug to a 200 amp charging station, that had a size 4 AC
magnetic starter inside of this charger. The large pins would mate first,
then the smaller pins will mate, second. A toggle switch in the EV then
will turn on the outboard charger.
This same plug can plug into a 200 amp power receptacle that also had a size
for AC contactor that turn on the AC power of either 125V, 250V, 120/208
three phase Wye or 125/250 three phase Delta that went to a on-board charger
that can accept all these voltages.
This same AC-DC plug on the EV can also connected to a trailer mounted 37.5
KW 3 phase 125/250 Delta alternator and engine. This with two double pole
interlock contactors, normally use for reversing, could provide DC power to
the motor directly or to the batteries.
This portable AC-DC generator was normally used for transport or for
emergency power.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 7:03 PM
Subject: Article 625
> I was reading the NEC article 625 and didn't see the word avcon listed
> anywhere.
>
> http://www.madkatz.com/ev/nec1999Article625.html
>
> Is this the most daunting paragraph to overcome?
>
> (b) Noninterchangeability. The electric vehicle coupler
> shall have a configuration that is noninterchangeable with
> wiring devices in other electrical systems. Nongrounding-
> type electric vehicle couplers shall not be interchangeable
> with grounding-type electric vehicle couplers.
>
> or
>
> 625-18. Interlock. Electric vehicle supply equipment shall
> be provided with an interlock that de-energizes the electric
> vehicle connector and its cable whenever the electric connec-
> tor is uncoupled from the electric vehicle.....
>
> If we are powering a charger, the pack won't backfeed thru it.
> It requies switching, but the pack ground feeds through on a pfc.
> Will this count? A contactor for AC can be relativly small.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw the 24 a/h models similar to the bb600's at
http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm and was interested to see if they
are the same type of battery. After reading the spec sheets on the bb600's
i've seen there is a aircraft and communications version. The communications
version are a lower output type of battery while the aircraft are for high
drain. Are the 24 a/h models aircraft versions as well, or at least high drain
models? Thanks all
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
