EV Digest 5439
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: EV Charging station
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Deka Dominators - latest Jetta conversion brainstorm..
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: High Voltage Nationals
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: EV Charging station
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Deka Dominators - latest Jetta conversion brainstorm..
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brad Baylor)
6) Re: Article 625
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: WarP 9' motor efficiency and max voltage?
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: The big debate. Gearbox or not with an AC motor.
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: New EV Album is Up
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: EV Charging station
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Deka Dominators - latest Jetta conversion brainstorm..
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brad Baylor)
12) Re: Article 625
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Article 625
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: WarP 9' motor efficiency and max voltage?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Reflections on a Toyota Conversion to Plug-In-Hybrid
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Article 625
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: High Voltage Nationals
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: Sanden Electric Compressor - was DIY air-conditioning
by Bryan Avery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Team NEDRA dragster?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: EV Charging station
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Hot Solenoid
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV Charging station
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Don't forget V2G - Surpassing 625 (was: Article 625)
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, in light of article 625, why don't we create our own. I know about
plastics and a lot of procesing, Who knows what it takes to get
approval? I think article 625 has some great stuff in it, can we update
the amperage from the avcon and minimize the post side electronics?
Lets create an open standard then, forget the proprietery stuff. Or
maybe we should contact avcon and see how they feel about the market,
are they burning off stock? willing to open it as a standard? willing to
sell of tooling? What is in tht little box? it seems that the box side
costs are kinda a damper on avcon.
How about we use the anderson with the aux contacts and block off 2 or 3
holes in our own EV specific pattern
You could by the connector, but when you crimp and install the pins ini
the aux, they must match the EVList ev1.2.1a standard or whatever.
Again, how do we prove compliance?
What would fill this gap.
personaly, I see 32A of 240 as just fine, but I only have a pfc20 and a
9kwh pack
If I remember, the NEC codes comes out every so many years, When is the
next cycle?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brad,
I bought the same battery in AGM. The Deka Intimidators 9A31's. Paid $140
ea at a local electric shop. I happened in on them when their Deka Rep was
in town. When he heard what I was doing he basically told the shop to pass
16 of them on to me at the shops delivered price. All the other local
places I found wanted ~$35-$40 each for delivery charge to Anchorage. The
specs are the same as the Gels except slightly higher current and slightly
less cycle life. I chose the PFC-20 charger with off the shelf regulators.
We'll see how they do in the 1988 Mitsubishi pickup. 'twill be interesting
comparing performance between the Jetta and the small pickup (motor,
controller and batteries being the same.).
Mike
Anchorage, Ak.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Brad Baylor
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 8:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Deka Dominators - latest Jetta conversion brainstorm..
Product brochure:
http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/products/pdfs/epm0909.pdf
In Deka's technical manual about these gel batteries:
http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/products/pdfs/0139.pdf
Typical life cycles:
Capacity Withdrawn - Cycles
100% 450
80% 600
50% 1000
25% 2100
10% 5700
Interesting eh?
Their group 31 battery is 70 lbs, 97.6 AH/20HR rate, 64.5 AH/1HR rate,
and rated at 780 A at 32 degrees F. About $160 each I believe.
For my Jetta conversion project (design which has flip-flopped a
bizillion times with many different battery/controller ideas....), I'm
now considering a string of 20 of these for 240 V, battery current
limit of 500 A, and a motor current limit of 1000 A, on a Warp 9.
Should give good enough 0-40 MPH to deal with rush hour traffic
merges, about 35% DOD with 20 miles round trip non-freeway commutes,
and exceptionally long life. Even though people have posted not to use
gels with DC systems, the figures seem reasonable when using 240 V and
larger than typical gels.
The catches seem to be the charge regimen of using a temperature
sensor on each battery, strict charge voltage dependant on
temperature, and because such, charging to 100% possibly taking longer
than overnight. But if I only drain 35% each day, charge with a 500
watt charger per battery (50 AMP 240 VAC circuit), should be
sufficient.
For chargers I'm thinking of doing the multi approach people have
recommended not doing for various reasons. But these batteries seem to
demand it, and I'm itching for a PIC project. :)
Jameco sells Meanwell (Astrodyne designed it looks like) PSP-500-15
for $129.35 each for 25. Power factor corrected, isolated, 500 watts,
13.5 to 18 V output. Input 90 to 264VAC or 127 to 370VDC. They are
gangable for up to 2000 watts output. Which means I could use 20 for
the batteries, and use 4 for the DC/DC (gonna have a MR2 power
steering unit), and have a spare.
For each battery, use a PIC with a built in A/D for the temperature
sensor, and digital pot to vary the output voltage (measured at the
battery for best accuracy and to make up for the voltage drop of the
charge cabling). Then have a master controller to power up the
supplies one at a time to limit the inrush, and to make battery eye
candy on a dash mounted display. Yeah. I'm liking this brainstorm.. :)
Brad Baylor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I hope to be there with my VW pickup.
Lawless is going to be there I think with his dragers,
Chip is planning on being there. car ??
Bob Salem
Columbus Oh
> Just wondering who else is bringing EV's.
> The Fox Valley EAA has scant information,
> http://www.fveaa.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=46
> They just list these,
> * John Wayland and his White Zombie.
> * BYU with their EV 1 sport compact capacitor
> powered drag car
> * Darin Gilbert with his 48 volt motorcycle
> * Bill Dube' with his high voltage motorcycle
>
> I thought Aggrevated Battery was planning on showing
> up?
>
> I won't be bringing any EV's unfortunately, just my
> energizer younger kids, Kyle 9 and Danielle 11 (unless
> the wife can get out of a previous commitment).
> The address at the track, 500 speedway blvd
>
http://www.chicagolandspeedway.com/cgi-bin/r.cgi/cls_directions.html?SESSION=VEUYKmKgv&N=
> doesn't come up on www.mapquest.com,
> but they do have directions at the link above.
>
> Where are people staying? I still need to book a
> hotel.
> Thanks,
> Rod
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 07:37:13PM -0700, Roger Stockton wrote:
> Nick Austin wrote:
>
> > Sure, it's impossible to charge a car that does not have an AVcon or
> > Magnicharge connector built in, and be up to standard.
>
> I don't believe this is correct; NEC 625 applies to the charging station
> (the "electric vehicle supply equipment"), not to the vehicle itself.
Suppose you have a car that does not have an AVcon or Magnicharge connector.
If the only charge stations that are NEC 625 compliant supply power to an AVcon
or Magnicharge connector, then it is impossible to charge said car and still
be compliant. Right?
> This may mean that as long as the outlet you install is not
> "specifically" for the purpose of delivering energy to an electric
> vehicle, you can charge from any outlet you like.
Ok, we may be able to convince a judge of that. :)
> > If you drive away with the cable connected, you may have hot
> > wires laying on the ground. If you have a ground fault, you
> > might have a +240 to ground live chassis. If you over current
> > the source, you could trip a breaker deep in a breaker box
> > you can never get to.
> >
> > These are the prices you pay for a simple plug. :)
>
> Just ask Bruce P to recount some of the prices you pay for the
> not-so-simple Avcon plug ;^>
>
> There is nothing to prevent having a GFCI protected ordinary outlet;
> this is not exclusive to Avcon.
True, GFCI outlets are common.
> Having an auto-resetting breaker that
> won't let you charge because your charger's PF is poor doesn't help you
> at all
This is true, these may also have problems with power supplies that switch on
and cause huge inrush currents. Perhaps these are the same thing?
This problem is a bummer.
But it still seems better then the same charger breaking a
breaker in some building and putting the plug out of service until you can
get the breaker reset.
> (and I think it may require you to disconnect/reconnect the
> vehicle to reset the breaker anyway, so much for auto reset).
Well, that is much easier in some cases. Also the smart AVcon heads will auto
retest over and over again until a set number of failures. I've never seen
an extension cord do that. :)
> Any ordinary outlet box that includes an accessible breaker is just as
> easily reset and useful (more so even if it is less sensitive to low PF
> chargers than the Avcon).
That's true. If you put a smaller breaker in the box then the large breaker
inside, you are much better off on this point. But it still wont close for
you while you're off at lunch after a nuisance trip :)
>
> > > If you're going to violate Article 625 anyway, why spend
> > > that much money doing so? ;^>
> >
> > You're safer if you violate it in this way.
>
> You're not any safer than had you simply included a GFCI in your charge
> cord, or in the supply to your simple outlet. The adapter box defeats
> the safety offered by the Avcon pilot signal such that you have acess to
> a simple always-live but GFCI protected outlet...
But the AVcon also has pull away protection. If you pull the cord out
of the AVcon head the circuit is killed before any wire is exposed.
There is a tiny Anderson connector that is taught in the main cable, if you
pull the cable out of the head, this breaks first opening the main contactor
in the AVcon head.
I'm sure this can be duplicated as well.
But if you do all these things, you have a solution that is basically the same
as an AVcon head. The vehicle connector may be better or worse depending on
how you do it, and it will be yet another standard.
Which brings us full circle. We should use AVcon. :)
>
> I suppose my point is that if you are going to install Avcon charging
> stations knowing that people are going to just plug in an adapter box an
> convert it to a simple outlet anyway, you might as well just install a
> cheaper RV shore power station (with GFCI breaker), label it as an RV
> parking spot and then let EVers use it to charge.
This is not such a bad solution. The plug might ware out, but on balance
you're pretty well off.
> No point forcing everyone to buy (relatively) expensive Avcon adapters
> just so your charging station can meet the letter of 625 while knowningly
> violating its intent; just install a non-EV charging outlet that Evers can
> quite conveniently use! ;^>
I still think you are a little better off from a safety and durability point
of view. Cost may be better in the simple outlet configuration if you
consider people who need to upgrade chargers to use AVcon heads. :)
> (I know this won't work for Jeff's goal of actually installing EV
> charging stations at local businesses; he really does need to install
> proper approved stations.)
Sure.
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aww screw this idea too... more searching leads to several posts about
how the gels sag too much after 200 to 300 amps. And screw my dual
battery string idea... too likely to blow up and/or not work well...
and the complexity makes my head hurt..
So I'm back to one of the earlier ideas- 32 Orbital 34DC36 batteries,
buddy paired for a very stiff 192 V. Should be good for 176 V at 1000
A. Which I really like because it should give plenty of accelleration,
even with 1300 lbs of batteries. Max range would probably be about 70
miles. Which means low DOD for 20 miles. With a multicharger like I
described and the low DOD, might get up to 1000 cycles. Which would
make the cost/mile reasonable. I've never heard of anyone fitting 32
of these in a Jetta though.. hmmm..
Brad Baylor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 07:14:42PM -0700, Roger Stockton wrote:
> Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
> > I was reading the NEC article 625 and didn't see the word avcon listed
> > anywhere.
>
> Of course not; the Avcon is just one (of the field of two ;^) connector
> system that has been designed to satisfy the requirements of article
> 625.
>
> > Is this the most daunting paragraph to overcome?
> >
> > (b) Noninterchangeability. The electric vehicle coupler
> > shall have a configuration that is noninterchangeable with
> > wiring devices in other electrical systems.
>
> It is definitely near the top of the list. By definition, any
> electrical connector you can buy off the shelf that is not part of an
> NEC 625 listed charging system, must be used in non-EV charging systems
> and is therefore not permitted.
I don't really understand this regulation.
If you are designing a very safe, durable, well build, and medium power
connector why not use it for a lot more then EV charging?
Seems silly to have this connection tech stand alone.
Also, isn't magnicharge used for high power electrics transfers between
submarines and other such craziness? Doesn't this make it interchangeable?
>
> > 625-18. Interlock. Electric vehicle supply equipment shall
> > be provided with an interlock that de-energizes the electric
> > vehicle connector and its cable whenever the electric connec-
> > tor is uncoupled from the electric vehicle.....
>
> Na; there are all sorts of ways to achieve this. Even some old Lester
> charger setups achieved this by using a multipin (4 or 6 pin) Anderson
> PowerPole connector that carried handshaking/interlock signals between
> the charger and car such that the charger's output was only energised
> when connected to the EV.
Ahh, this is for an off board charger? Why doesn't this meet NEC 625 reqs?
The Non interchangeability bit? I doubt anybody would be plugging an RV
or power tool into that strange plug :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter and all,
You might see numbers like 2500 RPM at 50 amps going about 50 MPH.
Huh?? What kind of little bitty car are you driving that only needs 7kw
to go 50 mph?
Unless you're driving something like a Carmen Ghia, 75-100 amps would be a
more realistic number.
At 170 motor volts and 50 motor amps, that's more like 8.5 kW. Still
pretty low, yeah. Those were just some quick numbers to illustrate the
difference between the "safe" continous zone of < 200 amps and the shady
continuous of 250+ amps. These are recommendations I've gathered from
conversations with NetGain. Of course you can push any of the
recommendations. Just better to size things correctly to avoid
shortening life.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don and all,
- higher voltage does not necessarily mean AC. Using a Zilla controller you
can use a high voltage system (up to 340V), but the controller will limit
the voltage to the motor. This is useful, because batteries packs voltage
drops as you accelerate, therefore the motor will always receive the max
amount of voltage.
I think this is what you meant, but possibly worth restating for
clarity: the Zilla "can" limit the voltage to the motor. But feel free
to crank the voltage up to plasma-ball levels if you want :) At least
I'm not aware of any internal limits the Zilla places on the motor
voltage. I assume maximum is the pack voltage.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike, Jerry, and all,
Some of you may have already noticed, but if not, the new improved EV
Album is up and running. Jerry Halstead has gone WAY beyond what I
could possibly have hoped for. He is magic with the code. He is the
only reason this was able to happen at all.
This is absolutely wonderful! I went in and made a few modifications on
the 200sx entry. I have a feeling this will *greatly* contribute to the
quality of the entries in the EV Album. I hope everyone eventually
takes a chance to update their pages. I still have to get some current
pictures up.
Thanks so much Mike and Jerry!
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Exactly, that's it (SBE 160A)
Last week a pair did not sell for $9 on Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ7611176036QQcmdZViewItem
I have exactly such a pair, including snipped pilot wires and
pre-lugged black and blue 2 AWG main cables.
(Not surprising, as I bought mine from him - half a year ago.)
NOTE that you are NOT supposed to pull the cord to unmate
the connectors.
They either should have a pull-rope or a bracket, there are
no less than 4 screw holes in the connector to bolt it down
to either a fixed surface or a sturdy handle for pulling.
I currently use the much smaller SB 50A for offboard charging
(Also available from the same seller)
That one does not have pilot contacts though but this is a
temporary situation until I get my charger installed.
(Now a chain of 48V supplies provide my isolated juice)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 7:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EV Charging station
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Not sure that AVCON is the only one.
>
> I have here an Anderson-style connector (160Amp)
> which has two tiny extra contacts in between the
> two large contacts.
Sounds like the SBE-160:
<http://www.andersonpower.com/products/pdf/DS-SBE160.pdf>
I don't know about "tiny"; it appears to use the same 10A-rated
PowerPole auxiliary contacts as the SBX-175 I use on my load banks:
<http://www.andersonpower.com/products/pdf/DS-SBX175.pdf>
And has the same 25lb insertion force... mating/unmating an SBX-175 is
surprisingly more difficult than a comparably rated SB-175.
> This can easily be used to make an energising circuit
> for the two big contacts (only needs a contactor).
>
> Would this satisfy Art 625?
An energising circuit is only part of the NEC 625 requirements. I think
the killer is the "noninteroperability" clause which specifically
prohibits the use of any connector that is used for any other purpose
than EV charging.
With its 25lb insertion force, I think it would take a very skookum cord
and strain reliefs to make a charge cord that would survive the strain
required to safely unmate the Anderson connector form the vehicle.
However... One doesn't need a 160 or 175A rated connector for this...
Perhaps one could build a multi-pole connector based on Anderson's
PowerPole contacts that would satisfy NEC 625? As long as one comes up
with an arrangement of contacts that is not used (known to be used?)
elsewhere so that it is specific to EV charging, this connector could
incorporate 60A rated main contacts with make-first/break-last ground
contact and pilot signal/interlock contacts, and it would be much more
easily separated from the receptacle by pulling on the cord.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you for the report. Yeah the Deka 9A31 is the other AGM I'm
considering besides the Orbitals. The one hour rate is about the same
per weight as the Orbitals, but the Orbitals are quite a bit stiffer
and might be better suited for my lead foot style driving (hehe..
>:o). The 9A31s would have less interconnects, rather than a bunch of
buddy-paired Orbitals. Though the Orbitals have the edge for simple
battery mounting because of the through battery bolts. Decisions
decisions...
Brad Baylor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff, are you planning on permanently wiring your charger into the house?
If not, then don't worry about Art 625 because it doesn't apply.
NEC only regulates (suggests actually) items permanently wired into the grid.
The whole point of art 625 is to prevent you from wiring your charger into
the house and then using a standard AC receptacle as the output. It
wouldn't do to have granma plug the vacuum cleaner into your high voltage
DC output when she stops by to visit.
If the charger is a separate item that plugs into the AC power, then it's
an appliance and not subject to NEC. The outlet it plugs into is a
standard appliance outlet and as long as you use a standard outlet, it's
already covered by NEC elsewhere.
Now for the charger to vehicle interface...as long as the charger is a
separate appliance, then NEC doesn't have jurisdiction and Art 625 doesn't
matter. Common sense, however, indicates you use an outlet/plug that is
different to standard outlets and shouldn't have live contacts exposed,
etc.
If you are planning on setting up a public charging station that supplies
something out than standard AC, then you definitely should follow Art 625,
whether your local government has adopted it or not.
> I was reading the NEC article 625 and didn't see the word avcon listed
> anywhere.
>
> http://www.madkatz.com/ev/nec1999Article625.html
>
> Is this the most daunting paragraph to overcome?
>
> (b) Noninterchangeability. The electric vehicle coupler
> shall have a configuration that is noninterchangeable with
> wiring devices in other electrical systems. Nongrounding-
> type electric vehicle couplers shall not be interchangeable
> with grounding-type electric vehicle couplers.
>
> or
>
> 625-18. Interlock. Electric vehicle supply equipment shall
> be provided with an interlock that de-energizes the electric
> vehicle connector and its cable whenever the electric connec-
> tor is uncoupled from the electric vehicle.....
>
> If we are powering a charger, the pack won't backfeed thru it.
> It requies switching, but the pack ground feeds through on a pfc.
> Will this count? A contactor for AC can be relativly small.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 12:55:43AM -0700, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> If you are planning on setting up a public charging station that supplies
> something out than standard AC, then you definitely should follow Art 625,
I though that even if you were setting up a public charging station that
only provides standard AC, then Art 625 applies.
Is that not the case?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>Huh?? What kind of little bitty car are you driving that only needs 7kw
>>to go 50 mph?
>>Unless you're driving something like a Carmen Ghia, 75-100 amps would be
>> a
>>more realistic number.
>>
>>
> At 170 motor volts and 50 motor amps, that's more like 8.5 kW. Still
> pretty low, yeah.
Fair enough, but if you are going to make a statement based on
assumptions, it's probably best to clue folks in on what those assumptions
are.
The original question was about running the motor at 150 volts.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanx for the update we were wondering how the maker faire turned out. I
have a 2006 prius i am itching to convert back here in New York State.Mike
Young
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR" <[email protected]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 10:07 AM
Subject: Reflections on a Toyota Conversion to Plug-In-Hybrid
> (please excuse me, if this is a Douplicate of a POST last night
> but my e-mail program says BOUNCED...)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>
> Reflections on a Toyota Conversion: April 20th – April 29th
>
> I think all of us realize the wisdom of Plug-In-Prius philosophy. And
> that is why I made the supreme effort to accompany Ryan Fulcher to the
> San Francisco Bay area, and the MAKE Fair.. Of course the chance to
> take in the movie “Who Killed the Electric Car” at the SF Film Festival,
> and not to mention the After movie Party did have a draw as well. Also
> the chance to meet the Producers, and Director personally… But more
> than ALL of that, was the opportunity to learn first hand from the Cal
> Cars people.. how the whole conversion goes together, and to work side
> by side with so many fine EV folks from the Bay area. My “Thanks” goes
> out to all of them, and especially our host Sherry Boschert, my EAA
> counterpart in San Francisco.
>
> The long ride back Monday night, and All Day Tuesday was grueling, but
> very picturesque. Shasta Lake and Mt. Shasta, and Grants Pass, were all
> beautiful.
>
> Time spent in Portland Tuesday evening with EV legend John Wayland and
> wife was not to be missed either.
>
> The conversion itself, stepping back in time for a moment, went well I
> thought. Although folks really underestimated the time it takes to do
> simple hardware stuff. One has to remember this was not a complete
> shop environment. Metal work was being done on our hands and knees.
> Wiring went fast on the 3rd day at Ron Gremban’s house. Very few
> electronic glitches. Even the Charger is UP-n-Running now that Ryan
> found a loose fuse holder connection last night, which was leaving the
> charging path Open. There are a few things we would probably have done
> differently, but one has to honor the months and months of work which
> went into this project before we even got to San Mateo. Media coverage
> was great. I am sure in part from the efforts of Felix Kramer and John
> Davi. Thanks Fellows !! At one point I had to step in for Felix for
> CBS Channel 5, and I have been told that we did well, and look forward
> to a copy of said interview thanks to Tom Driscoll.
>
> I had been working on publicity and invitations to the Two Day Open
> House at the University of Washington, where the car was featured in
> front of the School of Engineering this last weekend, for weeks in
> advance of our trip. It never ceases to amaze me how unresponsive local
> media can be. Even the UW’s own PBS radio station did not respond. And
> we bumped into a UW video crew twice, but they would not stop and do an
> interview. Yet all we have been hearing on Public Radio and TV for
> these many weeks or more, is all about the price of gas and the
> geo-political and environmental matters surrounding OIL. Go Figure ??
> Good things did come from some of my invitations. Alec Fisken from
> the City of Seattle, and Mr. Rich Feldman from the Apollo Alliance
> stopped by, and informed us that The Alliance would like to see the car
> at a very important conference being held at the Microsoft Campus, the
> first week in June. At least the crowds were giving us undivided
> attention. Gave out every brochure I had. Talked and Preached till my
> throat was raw… (but very happy to have had the opportunity. as always)
> Special thanks to the folks in the background at the UW school of
> Engineering, Amy Feldman-Bawarshi and Helene Obradovich. They were
> great hosts, and the Pizza was a great HIT with Ryan and I.
>
> Now it is on to Chelan County next Monday the 8th, to show a very eager
> group of forward thinking city and county folks ALL ABOUT
> Plug-In-Hybrids.. They can hardly wait for us to duplicate the
> conversion.. Or as we say at SEVA…”Educate, Demonstrate, and
> Proliferate “!
>
> Till then….
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
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--- Begin Message ---
The whole point of Art 625 is to prevent people from plugging appliances
into voltages they aren't designed for.
If it's just an AC receptacle, then it's just a standard outlet and falls
under the ruls for a standard outlet.
The fact that some people might chose to plug an appliance into the outlet
and use that appliance to charge an EV is irrelevent.
I could just as easily plug in an RV, or a floor scrubber, or a wleder
into the outlet and it would be just as safe as plugging them into the
same outlet elsewhere.
NEC Art 625 is just trying to prevent folks from plugging something into
the non-standard voltages/waveforms that an EV charger might put out.
> On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 12:55:43AM -0700, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>
>> If you are planning on setting up a public charging station that
>> supplies
>> something out than standard AC, then you definitely should follow Art
>> 625,
>
> I though that even if you were setting up a public charging station that
> only provides standard AC, then Art 625 applies.
>
> Is that not the case?
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob, All
We just picked up some new projects that are going to preclude us from
preparing the OJ-2 for race time.
We are busy building a bunch of EV's, problem is none of them travel
faster than 10 mph. You can see a couple we recently completed at
http://www.mgmstudios.org/cars.html. After last fall's Halloween runs
at Mason Dixon we completely rewired the OJr replacing the Zilla with
our big old series/parallel contactor control setup. Unfortunately
since then, the " work before play" attitude has prevailed and the OJ
is hanging on the wall unfinished and untested. Additionally, I stole
the disconnect/ breaker box and "OH ____" lever for the Monster Garage
project. After making many runs just fine in the OJ it gave up on
Jesse after 100 yards! We have not had time to build and install a new
one. So OJ is out for Chicago, probably for Power of DC as well. On the
bright side The little "Electropolitan" is running daily and is ready.
Shawn Lawless
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, 3 May 2006 00:38:26 -0400
Subject: Re: High Voltage Nationals
I hope to be there with my VW pickup.
Lawless is going to be there I think with his dragers,
Chip is planning on being there. car ??
Bob Salem
Columbus Oh
Just wondering who else is bringing EV's.
The Fox Valley EAA has scant information,
http://www.fveaa.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=
46
They just list these,
* John Wayland and his White Zombie.
* BYU with their EV 1 sport compact capacitor
powered drag car
* Darin Gilbert with his 48 volt motorcycle
* Bill Dube' with his high voltage motorcycle
I thought Aggrevated Battery was planning on showing
up?
I won't be bringing any EV's unfortunately, just my
energizer younger kids, Kyle 9 and Danielle 11 (unless
the wife can get out of a previous commitment).
The address at the track, 500 speedway blvd
http://www.chicagolandspeedway.com/cgi-bin/r.cgi/cls_directions.html?SESS
ION=VEUYKmKgv&N=
doesn't come up on www.mapquest.com,
but they do have directions at the link above.
Where are people staying? I still need to book a
hotel.
Thanks,
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, looks like a fun toy. Where did you acquire that thing and are
there any more available? :-) I tried finding a source for one of those
sanden electric a/c compressors a couple years ago and never had any
luck. Masterflux makes an electric A/C compressor also, but as I recall
is quite expensive. Any other alternatives out there?
-Bryan
Christopher Zach wrote:
Grigg. John wrote:
Will we are on the topic of Sanden Compressors; I have acquired a
Electric Sanden unit(new in box) originally from the electric Ford
Ranger. It came with the motor controller, computer module, electrical
schematic, and compressor unit.
http://www.sanden.com/products/electric.html
My only issue is finding the right plumbing for it and how-to plumb it.
Does anyone have any diagrams on this unit? I have already tried to
contact Sanden but they never return my calls.
That looks a lot like it. I'd say take this to your local friendly AC
shop and ask them for some advice. Paying them for the advice is also
a good idea :-)
Seriously, you need lines and hoses to connect that, your evaporator,
condenser, and dryer. Having it powered by 300 volts is most of the
battle.
Chris
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of the challenges facing NEDRA race organizers for the past few
years has been gathering together enough High performance EV's to show
what NEDRA is all about. There are many challenges for individuals to
overcome to put together a car for race day. Unfortunately, because of
other "paying" commitments we will not have the OJ ready for the High
Voltage Nationals. I hope that Aggravated Battery can be on hand to
burn up the track.
One of the immediate plans I had for a "new" NEDRA" if I had been
successful in my election bid was to build a Team NEDRA dragster.
I had discussed this idea with Chip Gribben in the past but asked him
to keep it confidential until after the election. The plan was to
personally sponsor a top notch NHRA approved chassis then use the vast
amount of knowledge in the NEDRA membership to plan, discuss, build,
race, and display a record setting (sub 10 second) EV dragster with
NHRA licensed driver (s) that would perform at "EVERY" NEDRA event as
well as be ready for display at conventions, ICE events, etc... around
the country. ALL NEDRA members could contribute in various forms by
donating ideas, designs, components, shop and storage space, cash,
transportation, etc... I see this as a way for NEDRA to work together
for a change for a common goal. Every member that contributed would
have his or her name on the dragster. There would have been many
challenges to overcome but none that seem insurmountable. Considering
I am not leading the organization I see my role in this as much
diminished, but what do think Brian, FT? Would your new administration
be willing to get something like this started. I would be willing to
help as I bet many NEDRA members would. Let's hear from other members.
Is this idea just nuts?
Shawn Lawless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 10:32 PM
Subject: RE: EV Charging station
> Ok, in light of article 625, why don't we create our own. I know about
> plastics and a lot of procesing, Who knows what it takes to get
> approval? I think article 625 has some great stuff in it, can we update
> the amperage from the avcon and minimize the post side electronics?
>
> Lets create an open standard then, forget the proprietery stuff. Or
> maybe we should contact avcon and see how they feel about the market,
> are they burning off stock? willing to open it as a standard? willing to
> sell of tooling? What is in tht little box? it seems that the box side
> costs are kinda a damper on avcon.
>
> How about we use the anderson with the aux contacts and block off 2 or 3
> holes in our own EV specific pattern
> You could by the connector, but when you crimp and install the pins ini
> the aux, they must match the EVList ev1.2.1a standard or whatever.
> Again, how do we prove compliance?
>
> What would fill this gap.
> personaly, I see 32A of 240 as just fine, but I only have a pfc20 and a
> 9kwh pack
>
>
> If I remember, the NEC codes comes out every so many years, When is the
> next cycle?
The next NEC comes out in 2008. It's a three year cycle. Changes to the
prior NEC come out when is needed. Roland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ding ding! Lee wins the prize.
He wins the prize for being correct and for scaring the crap out of me.
The solenoid currently installed is a small 2" can style. What I want to
know is how in the heck it's surviving so many amps being drawn through it!
I can only imagine how it's inhibiting the Comuta-Van's already marginal
performance.
Don't get me wrong; I love the thing. It's just that 72 volts is only fast
enough to drive on secondary roads with speed limits of 50 mph or less.
Well, I guess I'll hunt down a tougher contactor ASAP. Where can I purchase
an Albright SW200?
Many, many thanks,
Rich A.
Maryland
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 11:33:15 -0500
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hot solenoid
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Richard Acuti wrote:
The way my Comuta-Van is currently set up... The solenoid connects
the controller to the battery pack. The solenoid gets pretty hot.
The solenoid is kind of small...perhaps as small as a child's fist.
The original ComutaVan contactor controller had three contactors. One
was a big rectangular (3"x3"x8") DPDT 200amp 72v H-B (now Prestolite)
series/parallel switch. The second was a smaller rectangular (2"x2"x4")
200amp 72v SPST H-B for on/off switching. The third was a little round
can-type 36v 100a golf cart contactor that controlled the starting
resistor.
I'm guessing that whoever added the Curtis controller used one of the
old contactors as your on/off solenoid. Which one did he use? If he used
the little can-type solenoid, no wonder it overheats!
Even the larger H-B SPST contactor is marginal. Its original 200amp
continuous current rating was (barely) adequate with the 72v pack (my
ComutaVan drew 150 amps continuous at full speed).
The original large DPDT series/parallel contactor is your best choice.
You can parallel its two contacts to get a 400a 72v rating.
If you don't have this part, then I would suggest replacing the existing
solenoid with a properly rated contactor; for example an Algright SW200.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> ...whose specific purpose is to allow charging of an on-road EV
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> That is the tough sell. These really should be multi-purpose outlets.
> An RV, an EV, power tools, something else, anything else? The more
> the better.
I agree. If we try to make EV-only outlets, everyone without EVs (which
means almost everybody) will get no benefit, and will be opposed to
them. So, find as many uses as possible!
Besides regular EVs, they can be used for NEVs, electric bikes or
scooters, block heaters, Christmas lights, fans to cool your car while
parked, chargers for hybrid cars, power IN-lets so utility companies can
"borrow" power during brownouts...
> I can see the reluctance in the past of not being to excited to
> install Avcon stations. Considering "back then", what was going to
> use them at the time? EV1's and RAV4's?
In the future, why would anyone use an Avcon? Nothing is being
manufactured or sold that uses them.
> Is NEC Article 625 really that set in stone? How hard would it be to
> change it to make it not so limiting, or make it allow RV connectors?
I'm sure it could be changed -- if someone had enough money.
This is a sore point with me. I think EVers really *need* an
organization that can lobby congress, watchdog regulatory agencies, and
in general look out for the interests of EVs. Otherwise, one step at a
time, we will be legislated out of existence!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of the coolest new-old ideas for EV owners is the concept of V2G
(Vehicle-to-grid) power distribution. The subject/concept has been
raised here before (haphazardly), as people have wondered about using
their vehicle's motive batteries to power their houses in a grid outage.
From the old idea discussed here, formal research into the idea has
been undertaken at several universities.
For less formal research, we turn to people like those on this list, and
here is my favorite implementation of the V2G concept--
http://www.priups.com/
In my personal scheme, I have two automatic generator transfer switches.
One is installed in my garage, and feeds its subpanel for a subset of my
home power requirements. Another is on my electric RV, with 50 onboard
31G 97ah batteries and I will be doubling the battery count soon, plus
there's the Capstone microturbine, and a Powerware 9150 12.5KVA
inverter/UPS).
Eventually, my bus will provide backup power for my house.
My point is, if you are going to reexamine all the issues addressed by
NEC Article 625, and design an ideal charge-station, you might want to
look forward and incorporate V2G in your thinking.
Regards,
Jim
Nick Austin wrote:
On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 07:14:42PM -0700, Roger Stockton wrote:
Jeff Shanab wrote:
I was reading the NEC article 625 and didn't see the word avcon listed
anywhere.
Of course not; the Avcon is just one (of the field of two ;^) connector
system that has been designed to satisfy the requirements of article
625.
Is this the most daunting paragraph to overcome?
(b) Noninterchangeability. The electric vehicle coupler
shall have a configuration that is noninterchangeable with
wiring devices in other electrical systems.
It is definitely near the top of the list. By definition, any
electrical connector you can buy off the shelf that is not part of an
NEC 625 listed charging system, must be used in non-EV charging systems
and is therefore not permitted.
I don't really understand this regulation.
If you are designing a very safe, durable, well build, and medium power
connector why not use it for a lot more then EV charging?
Seems silly to have this connection tech stand alone.
Also, isn't magnicharge used for high power electrics transfers between
submarines and other such craziness? Doesn't this make it interchangeable?
625-18. Interlock. Electric vehicle supply equipment shall
be provided with an interlock that de-energizes the electric
vehicle connector and its cable whenever the electric connec-
tor is uncoupled from the electric vehicle.....
Na; there are all sorts of ways to achieve this. Even some old Lester
charger setups achieved this by using a multipin (4 or 6 pin) Anderson
PowerPole connector that carried handshaking/interlock signals between
the charger and car such that the charger's output was only energised
when connected to the EV.
Ahh, this is for an off board charger? Why doesn't this meet NEC 625 reqs?
The Non interchangeability bit? I doubt anybody would be plugging an RV
or power tool into that strange plug :)
--- End Message ---
