EV Digest 5470
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: formula???
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Off to the Races
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
by "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: US Electricar on Ebay, in Glendale, AZ.
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) emeter kwhr resetting during drive
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) OOPS, meant for Rich only, Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Who killed the Electric Car release date.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Prius PHEV trip data!
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Prius to get 113mpg
by "Felix Gardner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Off to the Races
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
by "Sweeney, John P" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Why no COMMENTS good-or-bad
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
by Paul Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: No V28 Chevy at High Voltage Nationals
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Prius PHEV trip data!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Why no COMMENTS good-or-bad
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Why no COMMENTS good-or-bad
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Why no COMMENTS good-or-bad
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT (Taps just monitor)
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> lets use 300wh/mile, assume lead acid and work from the avergage rate
> you will pull from batteries to please mister pukert.
>
> Then it is simple if I wanted to do 20 miles at 300wh/mile 20*300=6Kwh.
> For Lead acid batteries...
> we divide by .8 for max range to 20% SOC(state of charge) = 7.5kwh
> and divide by .5 for avg range for maximum pack life = 12kwh
You forgot to account for Peukert. Your formulas are good if you start
with the one hour capacity of the batteries. Unfortunately Lead-Acid
batteries hardly ever list their one hour rate.
For a ballpark figure you can use 0.65 x 20hr capacity.
So, for your max range figure, it would be 7.5kwh / 0.65 =~ 11.5 kwh at
the 20 hour rate.
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Bob, all
Yea we had 3 drivers but John drove most the way yesterday. We pushed
through over a 1000 miles to reach Cheyenne WY. at around 11:30 late last
night. Trying to get Wayland motivated as he didn't sleep well last night due
to train horns, lmao!! Tim nor I heard them, hehehe. We should hit Iowa city
tonight for an easy push to Joliet on Friday.
Cya
Jim Husted
Ps: EVeryone needs to give Wayland that universal horn honking hand pump
when they see him, he's just loving horns this morning, lmao!!
Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: Off to the Races
> Hey All
>
> Wayland and Tim made it to my house late last night. It's 4:21 and
we'll be out of here soon. Unlike Bob we're looking at 2000 miles so hold
the door to the factor tour would you Bob, lmao.
> Joliet or bust
> Cya all
> Jim Husted
> and a ragged looking Tim and John
> WZ is bushy tailed though, hehehe.
>
Wow! I figgured youse guyz would be in Utah or Nebraska by now? Guess
you have 2 or more pilots/ Only me so I hafta sleep, now an' again.Not 23
anymoore, sigh!
Seeya
Bob, LEAVING for real, now! OHHH! Sunshine peking throu!
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi EVerybody;
>
> Off this AM for Chicago land.Got only 1000 miles to go! Hope to go several
hundred miles today, and roll in at Warfield Electric, first port of call.
For Fri. Motor factory tour? Factory tours are a lot of fun. See ya there?
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
rates starting at 1ยข/min.
>
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You know now that you mention it. Each pair of leads for the charger are
fused. I'll have to verify the voltage rating on the fuse to make sure it
will open up on this high of a voltage. If it is rated for 250Volt then that
should solve that problem. I colud add a diode to block the reverse current.
But that would make my charging voltage 0.5volts lower due to the breakdown
voltage of the diode. I wouldn't have a way to comesate for the voltage
loss. The chargers are not adjustable. I'll just verify the fuses and stick
with them.
Just one less thing to keep me up at night.
Thanks, TED
Olympia, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 2:05 AM
Subject: Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
On 5/11/06, Ted C. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The only thing that has concerned me about my setup is if for some reason
I
get an open in my pack. I could get an voltage potential up 150volts+
trying
to go though one of the chargers. I have been meaning to contact the
maker
of the charger to find out what is the highest voltage the charger could
see
on any one charger. With a high enough volt one could let the magic smoke
out that makes it work.
If you get an open circuit cell while driving, you will have a reverse
polarity potential across that charger. The charger should be
protected against reverse polarity: sometimes just a diode across the
output and a fuse in series. If it doesn't have this protection (or
it's not sufficient to protect against the higher voltage and greater
fault energy), you could add it externally.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ricky Suiter wrote:
Alright, we'll see.... if he calls me back. I wounder if the extra wires
mentioned are for an alarm system and whatever was associated with the
> required door popers for the shaved handles. Anyone have a good picture
> of what a stock US Electricar S-10 should look like so I can get a
> better idea of what it should look like?
There are a couple in the EV Album that you can check out. Don't ask for
pictures of mine; it is currently what we would call a "rat's nest".
Should be a lot better once I clean up the wiring and get it running.
Big thing to look out for is that the Dolphin itself doesn't appear to
be abused. Turn the key and see what happens; do you hear a click then
fault, a clunk then fault, or does it go green? Plug it into 110, see
what happens. Ask nicely if he plugs it into 240, if so you need to send
me the Dolphin for a rebuild of the FETs (yes, they blow), the relays
(yes, they look like pitted dates; I have seen them) and the FET drivers
and maybe the +15 source.
They can be fixed, but at this point it's still a bit dicey. I recommend
that people send me or someone who knows what they're doing the whole
Dolphin well insured. Pop it into a car and see if it comes up. If it
does, then the problem is just wiring. If it doesn't then at least you
know BEFORE you sink money into batteries and the like.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
During my drive this morning, the emeter kept resetting the kwhr's to 0
after a long run of 100 amp draw, then letting off the accelerator pedal
for a stop (where the amp draw goes down to -0.1 Amps). and before pushing
the vacuum brake.
When driving at night time with lights on, this is not a problem due to the
constant draw of DC/DC for headlights.
Additionally after every evening charge, if the kwhr's are + above 0, the
e-meter also automatically resets them to 0. when I start driving out the
driveway, so it seems to like this automated reset to 0 thing.
I know that the e-meter can work with regen cars and solar cars, so is
there a setting to keep it from resetting the kwhr's to 0. i can't find
the info in the manual.
anything to avoid day running lights.
Thanks, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rich,
You know that the above subject line is totally rediculous because you
pulled out my press release before posting to the EV List. No one has a clue
as to the original meaning.
Roderick
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--- Begin Message ---
This is why I watch racing. I've been hoping some of this battery
technology would trickle down to the racers and it did. Now hopefully it
will be available to basic users like myself for our various projects. Mine
being an Electric chopper/recumbent long range vehicle. Lawrence
Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
Yes, it appears I was off on the capacity. You are correct it is 6 kw-hrs.
Keep in mind that as long as we have some left over at the end of the
track, capacity is not really much interest. :-) I should have been more
careful in my "back of the envelope" calculation of capacity, however.
You can charge these cells to anywhere from 3.3 to 3.6 volts. 3.4 volts
(or a touch more) seems to be the best spot for drag racing, at least from
what I learned from bench testing the cells.
Paralleling cells is no big deal. You just tab them together.
Since the charge takes so little time, we manually charge with a giant
Variac. I watch the ammeter and the voltmeter and the blinking lights on
the BMS. I turn the Variac handle as required.
Li-Ion cells are pretty simple to charge individually. You charge at
constant current until you hit the final voltage, then charge at constant
voltage until the current tapers off. You do the same thing to a pack, but
you must hold each cell to the final voltage with the BMS.
The A123 folks have amazing quality control. Every one of the cells was
within +/- 0.01 Volt of each other, even after a few weeks.
Bill Dube'
At 10:30 PM 5/10/2006, you wrote:
Bill,
Assuming that Ray Wong's post is correct (which you say it *is*) -- and
there's no reason to doubt that since he reprints an email from A123 to
himself quoting their cell's specs (at 3.3V nominal and 2.3 Ah rated
capacity) -- then your math is a bit off in what you told Electrifying
Times, which must be incorrect. Here is how Electrifying Times quoted
you:
"The battery pack has a total of 800 A123 Systems Li-Ion cells.
They are configured to deliver 340 volts at up to 1300 amps.
It weighs just under 150 pounds and will deliver about 350 HP to the
motorcycle drive package. These are very high-power cells that hold
plenty
of energy as well. This pack holds about 9 kW-hrs of energy!"
There would appear to be two errors. First of all, your nominal pack
voltage is presumably 330V, not 340V. (100 x 3.3V = 330V, not 340V.)
Second, your stored energy onboard the pack is 6 kWh, not 9 kWh.
[330V x (8 x 2.3Ah) = 6 kWh, not 9 kWh.]
Regardless of what the specific series-parallel configuration of the cells
is to make up the pack, you've got 800 cells, or at least that's what you
told Electrifying Times.
800 x 3.3V (nominal) x 2.3Ah = 6 kWh, not 9 kWh.
As I said, there's some bad math somewhere in your calculations.
Other than that, as I mentioned in my previous post, I'd be interested in
knowing a little bit more about your BMS and how you handle the
paralleling
of cells, particularly on the charging side, also what charger and charge
profile you're using. But I realize that you and your crew are getting
ready for a big race this coming weekend and don't have time to answer
those
types of questions right now. So hopefully maybe when you guys get back
from Joliet (with a new world record!), you might have some time to
address
those type of questions from inquiring minds.
Good luck at High Voltage Nationals!
Charles Whalen
----- Original Message ----- From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
Ray Wong got the specs right, so read his post.
Steve Ciciora designed the BMS system and Derek Barger helped to build
it.
As i said earlier, we managed to get these big discharge numbers on the
bench, but we have yet to actually draw 1300 amps from the assembled
pack.
In theory, we should be able to, but we have yet to actually attempt it.
Bill Dube'
At 05:53 PM 5/10/2006, Charles Whalen wrote:
A123's website is sorely lacking in details. No specs at all on any
cells, at least not that I could find. Hard to tell what they're
selling,
if anything. But taking that ET article on the new A123-powered
version of KillaCycle and combining that with some of the scant
hints on A123's website, one can sort of put the pieces of the
puzzle together as follows:
It looks like A123's cells are probably 3.4V nominal with a capacity of
3.3Ah. It would seem that Dube has put 8 of these cells in parallel for
26.4Ah and then put 100 of those 3.4V, 26.4Ah blocks in series to make a
340V, 26.4Ah pack. A 1300A peak discharge current for the pack would be
a
50C pulse rate. Just under 150 pounds for the pack gives a specific
energy of 132Wh/kg, which is pretty good for the pack (meaning of course
that the specific energy for the cell is even higher, given all the
extra
packaging weight required to assemble a pack).
It would be interesting to know whose BMS Dube is using, or whether he
developed it himself, some details on that BMS and how he handles the
challenges of paralleling, especially when charging the pack, what
charger
he is using and the charge profile, etc., etc. But I guess Dube is
probably on the road right now enroute to Joliet and thus can't fill us
in
on further details.
It would also be interesting to know whether A123 has any plans to
develop
higher capacity cells (greater than 3.3Ah) so that one doesn't have to
custom assemble thousands of cells to make a pack for a car. 800 cells
is
bad enough for a motorcycle, but a car would require thousands of them,
like what AC Propulsion does with its packs of 6,800 Li-Co-O2 (volatile
and highly combustible) 18650 laptop cells that it custom assembles for
customers. I doubt A123 will be a serious player in any potential BEV
market until they figure out how to engineer and develop a 100-200Ah
cell,
which is not an insignificant challenge.
Anyway, very interesting, especially about the progress that A123 has
made
in addressing the vexing calendar-life/capacity-fade problem, which is
the
dirty little secret and Achilles heel of lithium batteries, a very
sensitive issue that virtually no other lithium battery manufacturer is
willing to discuss in public or even acknowledge.
Charles Whalen
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>;
"Zappylist"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:20 PM
Subject: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
Message 4 From: "Remy Chevalier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue May 9, 2006 6:33pm(PDT) Subject: A123 Systems sponsored
KillaCycle
Photos from the test session of the A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle.
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/a123/KillaCycle.html
Did I miss this? Looks good.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I once again am caught with my pants down, my apologies to The List. Too
early in the morning! I will return to my off list mode.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 6:33 AM
Subject: Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
Hi Rich,
You know that the above subject line is totally rediculous because you
pulled out my press release before posting to the EV List. No one has a
clue as to the original meaning.
Roderick
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.comingsoon.net/films.php?id=12796 This site has the release date
of Who killed the Electric Car.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Awesome news Ryan. Sounds like you guys hit a real winner using the PFC.
I can't help but think if this same setup could be useful for a range
extension for an EV. If I had a pile of batts on a small trailer, I
could use the PFC to keep my main pack near full. When the trailered
pack became low, the pfc would just disconnect. Then I run on my main
pack. This is totally possible with my truck as it has a hitch. Or
maybe just pile everything in the bed.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Well, I went for my first "real" PHEV trip in the PFC enhanced Prius
> tonight, needed to get some groceries and start collecting some data.
> The PFC is sitting in the rear passenger seat where I can reach back
> and throttle it back should the CCL issue rear it's ugly head.
>
> So I started the trip with the 19 battery PbA pack sitting at 248v.
> Knowing that I'd be going more than the 34mph EV-Only mode speed
> limit I went ahead and let the ICE run through it's emissions warmup
> cycle, and I've also got some hills which require ICE power to climb.
> After 6.3 miles I had arrived at the store with 99.9mpg on the dash,
> which I though was a shame since I couldn't tell how far into the
> 100's it had gone. Ran into the CCL once on the way there so I
> reached back and turned the current down on the PFC, the CCL
> recovered in short order so I kicked the PFC back to full power.
> The Prius transitioned from EV-Mode to Stealth mode at 34mph
> without skipping a beat and I was able to cruse up to 41mph in
> silky smooth silence nearly the entire time after the warmup.
> On the way back I was climbing more and pulling more Amps so
> the SOC didn't stay as high and once it dropped to 45% the ICE
> would kick in even though the Hybrid Pack voltage was still
> hovering around 220v which is well above the 180v lower limit.
> Upon arriving back at home with a total of 12.6 and having run
> the ICE more on the return trip the mileage had dropped back down
> to 89.8mpg which is actually helpful for doing some calculations,
> and the PbA pack was down to 216v. After recharging the Delta-Q
> had put 0.88 kWh back into the pack as measured from the outlet.
>
> So, not bad considering we've just started and haven't implemented the
> automation to keep the SOC higher and have yet to crank up the PFC.
> 12.6 miles / 89.8mpg is 0.14 gallons (4.7 kWh @33.6kWh/gal)
> (4.7kWh * 30% is 1.41kWh) + (0.88kWh * 90% = 0.80kWh) = 2.21kWh
> Roughly 5.7 miles/kWh or 0.175 kWh/mile
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I test drove one yesterday, I was sold the minut I sat in it. If I
can I am going to get it. What can you tell me about rebates and
incentives? I heard that there are many different organizations that
will give small rebates around $100 to $200 for purchasing the Prius
and the federal tax rebate is like $3000 or so. I heard a rumor of a
person who bought a brand new 2006 Prius and applied for different
rebates or whatever from different organizations and ended up only
paying around $3000 dollars for the car out of his own pocket.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just got a call from John Wayland, they are just about to the
Wyoming/Nebraska border, and plan to stop in Iowa City, Iowa
tonight. John has family in the cookie business in Cheyenne so John
has turned into the Cookie Monster. Apparently they got loaded down
with cookies upon departure.
Don Buckshot, my wife Lilli and I are planning to hook-up with John,
early Friday morning in Iowa City. If all goes well the Civic EV and
pusher combo will be purring along as well. I only have about 120
miles of testing on it and I am still sorting some of it out.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have taken a slightly different approach using a charger per battery.
I have implemented a charger per battery in addition to the bulk charger
on my E FIERO.
The bulk charger monitors each battery and shuts itself down when the
pack is 90% recharged. The small switchers are on as long as the vehicle
is plugged in. The individual chargers are set to 13.8V and balance the
pack. Each charger is fused with a 250V rated fuse and has a LED
indicator that shows when the battery is above 13.4V. This will indicate
if any charger has failed.
The only potential problem is if a battery fails by going open under
bulk charge then the charger connected to it will go poof, snap,
crackle, & pop as it sees full pack voltage on its 12V output. So far
the system has worked without a problem.
I have left the individual chargers plugged in for over 24 hours.
After 3-4 hours the total current being supplied to all 19 chargers is
less than 1/2 amp. & all the batteries are within 5mv of each other.
KICKGAS
Pat Sweeney
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Evan Tuer
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 2:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
On 5/11/06, Ted C. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The only thing that has concerned me about my setup is if for some
reason I
> get an open in my pack. I could get an voltage potential up 150volts+
trying
> to go though one of the chargers. I have been meaning to contact the
maker
> of the charger to find out what is the highest voltage the charger
could see
> on any one charger. With a high enough volt one could let the magic
smoke
> out that makes it work.
If you get an open circuit cell while driving, you will have a reverse
polarity potential across that charger. The charger should be
protected against reverse polarity: sometimes just a diode across the
output and a fuse in series. If it doesn't have this protection (or
it's not sufficient to protect against the higher voltage and greater
fault energy), you could add it externally.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got to tell ya... Here we have Post after post on a few new Honda
Hybrid models which aren't even out yet...
And a POST on a 40 mph, pure BEV, al be it from a kind of ....well one
of those companies... But there REAL. People are buying them $9999. a
copy, 4 doors, charger and batteries included.
And yet... not one comment. The EV Video from that Salem OR. source
is worth commenting on all by itself. Forget the funny 3 wheel XEzebra...
I have NO STOCK or ownership in this... I just thought this was good
news, and a Real World BEV that really "made it to Market" not
Vapor-ware, or made of "Unobtainium..."
Here is the POST again:
Thanks Tim.. Great Footage... (now the whole World can see your story...)
http://salem-news.com/articles/may82006/Electric_Cars2_5706.php
PS:I know the PHEV thing is More Important...I was there...
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
if your present pack is 6kwh and 340vdc, how practical would it be to
scale up to around 30kwh. This should be around 5x the number of cells
you are now using, 5 x 800 = 4000. 340 vdc seems about right for a car
and I think about 30kwh as a practical useful battery capacity for about
50 miles or so of range under most circumstances. This would give a
pack weight of about 750 pounds or so, not bad. Did you already post
the rough overall dimensions of your current battery pack? Would
scaling up by 5x take up about 5x the volume?
Paul Wallace
'91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The whole issue here is we didn't have 8 hours to get this pack charged.
I am Rather impatient with charger speed.
I have a whole product line based on NOT waiting for a charge cycle.
No fans, 60 Deg C surface... thanks for the market sector.... this limits
your products to under my Radar.
Waiting 8 hours to recharge my PhEV is clearly not in my business plans.
Still I tried to cool it... and man it staid hot.
Clearly I am worried about processing 6 to 12 Kw in the same little hole
that we had the DQ stuffed into.
Scrubbing 7% of 12 Kw even with fans and enclosed tunnel bound heatsinks at
105C is going to be a tough Thermo point.
Vacuum cleaner Kind of sounds.. are not for EVs.
Liquid cooling is starting to loom into the picture.
And Gee Roger... we would not have had a depleted pack at a Demo if Your
charger had been making 1kW in the first place!!!
Count you and your company lucky I didn't chuck it as far as I could! I
would have been very happy if the DQ took care of the Grid side chores for
us.
It did solve our problems...about 2 days later.
And clearly the limiter was the 2 amps to 2 volts soft ramp up.
Hint....loose that feature... And we would not be having this public hair
pulling contest.
Or at least give us a way to defeat it. The NiMh pack on the east coast has
one of your chargers in it. Fast turn around ride and drives are happening
in less than 7 days.
It might help If you get me info on that charger... so I can get the most
from it.
Anybody on this list knows what's going to happen.. the ride and drives will
flatten the packs...and then we will have to grid charge...
I better bring more cheater cables for my PFC30....
Keep in mind I got a pack driven into my space without a known state of
charge, and in about 30 minutes had it topped off, drained, Max SOC found,
recharged, and in motion.
Charger run on DC for the first time in my shop and then wired into and
driven 5 miles in about 4 hours time. After the first cycle on the PFC30 I
was thinking about reaching for the nearest PFC50 to slam it full in about
15 minutes. Cheap lead Acid has it advantages. You can push them... and
hard... if you keep a eye on them. Again this is what I have about 1.5
Decades of practice at.
Madman.
Oh and I get to do this same trick with a NiMH pack this weekend on the
East coast...
Then we get to drive it to Washington DC.. and have Plug in Prius on the
Mall for Ride and drives...for Senators... and the like.
Yea... Hot seat time for Rich... Again...
Geez what's next for Super Rich.. a Space Shuttle ride to fix some kind of
charger on the way to the Moon???
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 5:49 PM
Subject: RE: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > Roger...your turn to feel defensive.
>
> Trying my best to avoid that; I just want the record straight.
>
> > The charger refused to make more than 250 volts. The AGMs
> > needed 14.8 to meet my Charged parameters.
>
> That charger is capable of 336V output and will take the batteries to
> 14.8V unless it is broken.
>
> > Being delacate is not a fast solution.
>
> Calcars did not intend that onboard charger as a fast solution for demo
> runs; it is intended to recharge the pack overnight and treat it right
> while doing so.
>
> > The pack was new...really new....
>
> And this is why one of the algorithm safety parameters may need to be
> tweaked; Ryan and I have already spoke about this, but he fried the
> Calcars system before he got a chance to do any more charge cycles after
> we talked.
>
> > I Kinda know about Regs...
>
> Of course, and if you stick regs on Ryan's pack to complement your PFC30
> you will have no problem. If you don't, you will kill the pack
> prematurely.
>
> > When you have a room full of clients and interested
> > folks...sitting and waiting for a charger is a BAD thing!!!
> > Been there done that learned the lesson.
>
> Apparently not; the lesson is never show up to a demo with a depleted
> battery in the first place. ;^>
>
> > We had 100s of CFM flowing around the charger...
>
> It takes precious little airflow to allow our charger to sustain full
> output, so 100s of CFM is overkill.
>
> > In the current set up we have NO low voltage cut out for the
> > PFC charger. It will suck the PbLa Dry and not know it. So I
> > was certainly NOT going to push my luck with a new pack. We
> > got close enough to cell reversal as it awas.
>
> This might go a long way toward explaining your long charge time. The
> charge algorithm in the Delta-Q charger will "trickle" the battery at 2A
> until it exceeds 2.0V/cell, and only then will it go to full output.
>
> > The heat made was... or seamed out of line. I have 100 CFM
> > of airflow in my chargers... For a darn good reason.
>
> The charger dissipates a maximum of about 100W at full power. The
> heatsinks/external surfaces will not exceed something like 60C (UL
> requirement).
>
> Our chargers are fully sealed and have no cooling fans also for a darned
> good reason: OEMs want sealed chargers for onboard mounting, and they
> invariably will not accept a cooling fan for reliability reasons.
>
> > By my math the DQ was set up for about 16 batteries.. not 19.
>
> Something is suspect then, because it is *not* set up for 16 modules.
>
> As I noted, Ryan has the tech support information, should he choose to
> use it. The charger left here capable of fully and safely charging a
> string of 20Ah AGMs; if it is not doing so and he would like to be using
> it, then we're here to make it so.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ummm..
Not a good idea... every battery needs it's own charger.
And we at one point had 105 amps of 120 VAC flowing into over 100
chargers... and I still had more chargers... to hook up.
Way too much wiring and effort. Not a good idea.
We had enough problems just getting 384 packs hooked up.. let alone 384
chargers... and Cables and finding 384 120 v outlets....
No... No more Billions of chargers nightmares... Zick did that to me
Already.
Key in .... billions of PFCXX chargers in every Prius.... that's the next
miricle Stunt.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 6:31 AM
Subject: Re: No V28 Chevy at High Voltage Nationals
Dave,
Not a dumb question at all. I think we actually discussed the
possibility of doing this on the show but scrapped the idea due to
space and time constraints. The chargers are very light and bring back
a completely discharged pack to full in 1 hr., so providing you had
sufficient grid power it would really take the TIME out of recharge
time. I may be missing something in my equation here though. I can't
remember if we discussed whether or not the packs needed to be isolated
during charging. MADMAN was our charge guru perhaps he has some input
here.
Shawn Lawless
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 8 May 2006 19:09:43 -0700
Subject: Re: No V28 Chevy at High Voltage Nationals
Dumb question time again.
I was thinking about the holders for the v28s, and the problem of
charging them, and I was wondering if it would be possible to install
the chargers in the car, do a little rewiring, and use them as battery
holders, and maybe wire the chargers together too?
David C Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"The Bush administration's priorities are
"a little bit different now and veterans aren't a priority,"
----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 6:54 PM
Subject: No V28 Chevy at High Voltage Nationals
> All,
>
> Despite our best efforts I received word today that the V28 MG Chevy
will > not be available for the High Voltage Nationals.
> Though no fault of Milwaukee's John Zick who continues to push to get
us > back on the track, the logistics of a large corp. and the previous
> obligations for the car were too much. We are doubling our efforts to
see > this machine on the track in Hagerstown in June. We were hoping
to at > least be there nice, big, and red in the White Zombie's rear
view but the > racing season is still young....
>
> Shawn "One Short" Lawless
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OHhhh Sweet ! 175 watt hrs per mile.....
And we need a PFC 40.... I see.
Up that ante from 6200 watts of charger to 10Kw of charger... gonna need
water cooling!!!
Who hot did the PFC30 get??? NO flashing Yellow.....yet??? It takes a couple
of minutes of full amps just to heat up the heatsinks to Cut back temps.
I am hoping that.. the thermal lag will ride through the real loads.
Else... we gonna need the guts from a PFC50.
I hear there's a low temp electronics cooling water system in the
Prius...OK.... Tygon and Hose clamps needed.
Rick Woodbury will have some competition for his water cooled charger
demand.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 4:13 AM
Subject: Prius PHEV trip data!
> Well, I went for my first "real" PHEV trip in the PFC enhanced Prius
> tonight, needed to get some groceries and start collecting some data.
> The PFC is sitting in the rear passenger seat where I can reach back
> and throttle it back should the CCL issue rear it's ugly head.
>
> So I started the trip with the 19 battery PbA pack sitting at 248v.
> Knowing that I'd be going more than the 34mph EV-Only mode speed
> limit I went ahead and let the ICE run through it's emissions warmup
> cycle, and I've also got some hills which require ICE power to climb.
> After 6.3 miles I had arrived at the store with 99.9mpg on the dash,
> which I though was a shame since I couldn't tell how far into the
> 100's it had gone. Ran into the CCL once on the way there so I
> reached back and turned the current down on the PFC, the CCL
> recovered in short order so I kicked the PFC back to full power.
> The Prius transitioned from EV-Mode to Stealth mode at 34mph
> without skipping a beat and I was able to cruse up to 41mph in
> silky smooth silence nearly the entire time after the warmup.
> On the way back I was climbing more and pulling more Amps so
> the SOC didn't stay as high and once it dropped to 45% the ICE
> would kick in even though the Hybrid Pack voltage was still
> hovering around 220v which is well above the 180v lower limit.
> Upon arriving back at home with a total of 12.6 and having run
> the ICE more on the return trip the mileage had dropped back down
> to 89.8mpg which is actually helpful for doing some calculations,
> and the PbA pack was down to 216v. After recharging the Delta-Q
> had put 0.88 kWh back into the pack as measured from the outlet.
>
> So, not bad considering we've just started and haven't implemented the
> automation to keep the SOC higher and have yet to crank up the PFC.
> 12.6 miles / 89.8mpg is 0.14 gallons (4.7 kWh @33.6kWh/gal)
> (4.7kWh * 30% is 1.41kWh) + (0.88kWh * 90% = 0.80kWh) = 2.21kWh
> Roughly 5.7 miles/kWh or 0.175 kWh/mile
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I guess it a arguably a step up from an NEV. If I still lived in new
england where I could drive it to the train everyday on 35mph streets I might
be more interested probably not though considering I had an equivalent vehicle
for $500. But my new house is on a 45mph road surrounded by 50-55mph roads.
Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I got to tell ya... Here we have Post after post on a few new Honda
Hybrid models which aren't even out yet...
And a POST on a 40 mph, pure BEV, al be it from a kind of ....well one
of those companies... But there REAL. People are buying them $9999. a
copy, 4 doors, charger and batteries included.
And yet... not one comment. The EV Video from that Salem OR. source
is worth commenting on all by itself. Forget the funny 3 wheel XEzebra...
I have NO STOCK or ownership in this... I just thought this was good
news, and a Real World BEV that really "made it to Market" not
Vapor-ware, or made of "Unobtainium..."
Here is the POST again:
Thanks Tim.. Great Footage... (now the whole World can see your story...)
http://salem-news.com/articles/may82006/Electric_Cars2_5706.php
PS:I know the PHEV thing is More Important...I was there...
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That $9999 priced EV had me thinking it would be worth picking one up
for use here in California. Don't know if the licensing would be the
same. It would fit my driving well. Would cost less to buy than a few
packs for my truck.
I'll hunt around and see if there are any serious specs on this thing.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I got to tell ya... Here we have Post after post on a few new Honda
> Hybrid models which aren't even out yet...
>
> And a POST on a 40 mph, pure BEV, al be it from a kind of ....well one
> of those companies... But there REAL. People are buying them $9999. a
> copy, 4 doors, charger and batteries included.
>
> And yet... not one comment. The EV Video from that Salem OR. source
> is worth commenting on all by itself. Forget the funny 3 wheel
XEzebra...
>
> I have NO STOCK or ownership in this... I just thought this was good
> news, and a Real World BEV that really "made it to Market" not
> Vapor-ware, or made of "Unobtainium..."
>
> Here is the POST again:
> Thanks Tim.. Great Footage... (now the whole World can see your
story...)
> http://salem-news.com/articles/may82006/Electric_Cars2_5706.php
>
> PS:I know the PHEV thing is More Important...I was there...
>
>
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steven,
In my opinion, most people are more interested in freeway-capable vehicles
than in NEVs, so it doesn't matter that a NEV is avalable now if it can't
be used...
As for the new store in Salem, OR, I looked at their web page. The goofy
three-wheelers look like escapees from Disneyland. It puts a cartoon lens
on the whole store. The showroom also had lots of scooter-like products.
Interesting, sort of, but not all that useful...
Ralph
Steven Lough writes:
>
> I got to tell ya... Here we have Post after post on a few new Honda
> Hybrid models which aren't even out yet...
>
> And a POST on a 40 mph, pure BEV, al be it from a kind of ....well one
> of those companies... But there REAL. People are buying them $9999. a
> copy, 4 doors, charger and batteries included.
>
> And yet... not one comment. The EV Video from that Salem OR. source
> is worth commenting on all by itself. Forget the funny 3 wheel XEzebra...
>
> I have NO STOCK or ownership in this... I just thought this was good
> news, and a Real World BEV that really "made it to Market" not
> Vapor-ware, or made of "Unobtainium..."
>
> Here is the POST again:
> Thanks Tim.. Great Footage... (now the whole World can see your story...)
> http://salem-news.com/articles/may82006/Electric_Cars2_5706.php
>
> PS:I know the PHEV thing is More Important...I was there...
>
>
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A clamper is a generic electronic term for hard limiting a voltage.
It's been around for decades. That's what I call my version of Rich's
regulators. I made 110 boards worth of them in a surface mount version
for my 104 battery pack. Turns out they will be handy for use in the
Prius packs as well.
The Prius modules are prismatic so that are not the same shape as the
Insights?. Plus I'll need all of them as this is an experiment of
grand proportion for me. Ultimately as many as 10 packs in parallel.
May very well end up with a pfc charger for them and some kind of
regulation and monitoring for each as well.
Mike
>
> > Now that I have 11 Prius Packs, I'll tear down a battery ECU and see
> > if there are any circuits that make it look like a module to module
> > level BMS. After going thru the clamper drill
>
> The what? :)
>
> By the way, any good sets of cells going spare? I'd like a set for my
> Insight once they wear out.
>
--- End Message ---
